Dragon 381
Winning Races: Tieflings
by Mike Mearls
The long-dead Bael Turathians learned many secrets from their devilish masters.
Talk about this Article here.
Winning Races: Tieflings
by Mike Mearls
The long-dead Bael Turathians learned many secrets from their devilish masters.
Talk about this Article here.
And modifying the racial power permanently is something completely new, and (always IMO and at a first analysis) a bit risky on the mechanical side. How would the new type of Wraths interact with previous feats that piggy-backed on the original one? A bit messy.
Diabolic Transformation is imba, seriously.
Seriously. That's insane!
The paladin/warlock section brings a bit too much power to the table for hybrids, IMO.
And modifying the racial power permanently is something completely new, and (always IMO and at a first analysis) a bit risky on the mechanical side. How would the new type of Wraths interact with previous feats that piggy-backed on the original one? A bit messy.
If I recall, the tiefling racial feats that modify Infernal Wrath always included Infernal Wrath as a requirement. I doubt that these replacements are imbalanced because of the opportunity cost: to make the best use of multiclassing, you already have to spend quite a lot of feats, and now these come on top (or somewhere in the middle).
Although, you did say hybrids specifically, but I seriously doubt we can be the judge there yet - we only have the playtest versions of those rules. I imagine, since this article is credited to Mike Mearls, that he has a good idea of what the final hybrid rules look like and was able to take them into consideration. We do know that hybrids give up quite a lot of class features, and this article goes a long way to making those hybrid options more exciting for tielings from a background perspective - hybrids are supposed to reflect characters of unusual backgrounds, after all.
Diabolic Transformation is imba, seriously.
Meh it's a daily, which, depending on how many encounters your party sees in a day, could severely limit it.
Now Paladin's Wrath... Geez, Tiefling Chaladins are probably the best mass-markers in the game now.
EDIT: My other issue is no clarification on how the feats that replace Infernal Wrath interact with one another. What if my Warlock|Paladin takes Warlock's Wrath and Paladin's Wrath? When do I choose between them? Do I get both? etc.
Now Paladin's Wrath... Geez, Tiefling Chaladins are probably the best mass-markers in the game now.
EDIT: My other issue is no clarification on how the feats that replace Infernal Wrath interact with one another. What if my Warlock|Paladin takes Warlock's Wrath and Paladin's Wrath? When do I choose between them? Do I get both? etc.
I'm guessing that a tiefling "Chaladin" is also going to be putting himself at more risk than the tougher races of the same class by marking so many enemies.
Regarding the infernal wrath swaps, according to the rules provided, only the feat you took first would replace infernal wrath - you still get the other benefits from both feats. Surely the DM would let the given tiefling swap those two feats with a retraining.
I thought that the Tieflings transformed themselves through a pact with devils who undermined Asmodeus, much as Infernal Warlocks do.
Diabolic Transformation is imba, seriously.
Meh it's a daily, which, depending on how many encounters your party sees in a day, could severely limit it.
Yes, well, generally we don't get more combats than three, maybe four, a day. Regeneration and a damage bonus for an entire encounter plus a one-use power that is quite nice... pretty tough feat, esp. as it has no other requirements.
I just leveled, I think I'm retraining one of my feats for this one (it fits thematically as well)...
Gomez
I thought that the Tieflings transformed themselves through a pact with devils who undermined Asmodeus, much as Infernal Warlocks do.
Not so far as I can tell. Nothing in the Tiefling racial entry says much one way or the other, however, the description of the Infernal Pact suggests quite the opposite.
Player's Handbook, page 130
Long ago a forgotten race of devils created a secret path to power and taught it to the tieflings of old to weaken their fealty to Asmodeous.
Thus not only was the Infernal Pact created to undermine Asmodeous, but it seems to have specifically been created to undermine his influence over the tiefling race.
I'm guessing that a tiefling "Chaladin" is also going to be putting himself at more risk than the tougher races of the same class by marking so many enemies.
True, but with an array of 12, 16, 10, 10, 12, 18 or 13, 14, 10, 10, 14, 18 a Tiefling Chaladin pulls it off extremely well, with good con for defense, and generally great defenses in general. In addition, between Paladin's Wrath and Call of Challenge (and Valorous Smite and MAjestic Halo), they can mark an area like nobody's business.
One of the nicer things about this article is the feats really are good for Tieflings, so Revenant Tieflings aren't better.
Is it just me, or did this article retcon the relationship between Tieflings and Asmodeus?
I did NOT have sexual relations with that Tiefling.
Same goes for those fire and fear based feats. It allows the tiefling to center around those powers and reduces the drawnbacks of choosing one of the most common resisted elements.
If i had to critizise something on this article, it whould probably be the lack of class-related feats, other than those allready profiting from the tieflings racial boni. Having 3 feats for a hybrid class and 4 for the wizard is nice, but some general melee feats for all those rogues, fighters .... out there, whould have been great. The halfling article had a bit more of those genral usable feats.
Never the less, a really good collection of new options for allmost any tiefling out there.
infernal wrath doesn't limit where i can use it, but against whom. also, i get the wrathful magic option if i feel that i don't get to use the buff often enough. i can also throw in feroious rebuke.
as an infernalock/laser bard, i'm really pleased to see the options abound, but i don't understand why so much hatred of infernal wrath. i like to couple it with vengeful curse to make sure that i can really pile damage on any attacker.
in fact, the disappointment of warlock's wrath for me was that it is the only feat i've yet seen that pushes the curse die up from d6 to d8, but it was coupled with the power swap. i'd love to push up the curse damage, but i don't want to swap.
Although, you did say hybrids specifically, but I seriously doubt we can be the judge there yet - we only have the playtest versions of those rules. I imagine, since this article is credited to Mike Mearls, that he has a good idea of what the final hybrid rules look like and was able to take them into consideration. We do know that hybrids give up quite a lot of class features, and this article goes a long way to making those hybrid options more exciting for tielings from a background perspective - hybrids are supposed to reflect characters of unusual backgrounds, after all.
I don't imagine this is the case. (Nothing against Mike Mearls... I'm thinking of some of the other articles we've seen with unexpected interactions that need tweaking.) I do think this material makes some builds amazing.
Crimson Legionnaire: Not a Tiefling feat. Bonus is untyped. Works for Hybrid Pal|Locks and Paladins with Student Of Malediction. (And the Student version of the Curse won't end until the target is dead if you ignore the Curse damage.) A must-have for these builds.
Crimson Fire: Wow. Not a Tiefling feat. Works with Warlocks with Soldier of the Faith (because Challenges last all encounter... just the damage doesn't) & you can be engaged from far away once you get within challenge range. I can't imagine Hybrid Pal|Locks not picking this power; sure, you only do Curse damage with Warlock powers, but that allows you to bomb them from range as per the above.
Warlock's Wrath. A must-have for Tiefling Warlocks not invested in Infernal Wrath because it's two useful feats in one. I think the "you fill your space and the squares around it" part of the power is useless as the damage affects anyone attacking you, even from 20+ squares away.
Wrath of the Crimson Legion. A must-have for Tiefling Chaladins not invested in Infernal Wrath because it's two useful feats in one. 'Nuff said.
Diabolic Soul: The Feat bonus is no great shakes, but the Diabolic Transformation power.... Adding the Black Wrath of Hell just takes it beyond too much. Compare this to any Warden's guardian form. (It even says "when you are in this form".) You don't have to melee to get any of the advantages of either power, so you don't seem much like a "brute".
Furious Demand: Another "not a Multiclass" power swap, but most others peg the prereqs to Acolyte Power (8th level) and not 2nd level. The feat skill boost is OK, though obviously not as good as Skill Focus. The power is not a fear effect(?!), and the penalty lasts a long time (even if it's small in value for some builds). Not a must-have, but probably good for some CHA builds.
Hellish Defiance: Not fantastic... if the creep doesn't attack you, nothing happens.
Imperious Majesty: OK for CHA builds, but of limited utility for Rogues in that they probably don't want to switch their CHA for DEX (the other part of the feat is OK for them and fits well with First Strike & Artful Dodgers).
Hellfire Arcanist: Note that the bonuses have nothing to do with Wizard attacks, so Multiclassers & Hybrids rejoice. (Same with the next three feats.) Trumps part of Hellfire Blood, which otherwise compliments this feat.
Hellfire Master: This may need a little clarification (beyond the "your fire attack" phrasing). The "saves" wording means "makes a successful saving throw", right? So it's really an Aftereffect: rider attached to all of your fire power effects which can end with a save, right? Note that the save may be as mundane as being weakened or whatever as long as it's from a fire power, so it affects everything in a Prismatic Spray. Arcane Admixture means you can also use this feat with any single arcane power you have, especially ones with multiple saves such as Face of Death, Endless Acid, or Disintegrate.
Hellfire Terror Lord: See above for wording issues. Instead of Arcane Admixture, you can use Infernal Malediction if you are an Invoker as well as a Wizard (and don't switch out Infernal Wrath) and thus have more flexibility as to the flattening. Another good feat for Face of Death or Prismatic Spray.
Wizard's Wrath: The feat effect is great for fire folks and fits well with Surging Flame & Irresistable Flame before the enemies are bloodied. The Wizard's Wrath power can last for 2+ of your attacks (which don't have to have anything to do with fire), and is huge against bosses or tough targets as long as you can keep 'em in the zone. "Sorry, Vecna... was that a Hand of Radiance in your good eye?"
i'm fairly surprised by the hatred of infernal wrath. i play a tielfling warlock/bard and really enjoy when i can use the infernal wrath.
I can only state my personal impression of infernal wrath, but i dont think calling it one of the worst racial powers is to far of the truth (unmodified that is).
- It has by far the hardest trigger for an attackboost: You have to get hit, not only attacked.
- It has a very limmited timewindow to activate: It has to be your next turn, after receiving a hit.
- It has hard target-restriction: You can use it only on the enemy that hit you.
- It has a rather limmited effect: + 1 to hit isnt that great to start with, but also does this only apply to the target (an AoE-Power wont get the +1 to additional targets in the area). The additional damage is nice, but again limited. allmost any other racial power with damage effect lets you choose between atleast two attributes. IW is only connected to Cha, not Int.
- It requires an minor action: Why does channeling my fury requiere an minor action, not a free one?
All these restrictions and the small bonus it proviedes are the reason i normally refere to it as "inferior wrath".
i'm fairly surprised by the hatred of infernal wrath. i play a tielfling warlock/bard and really enjoy when i can use the infernal wrath.
My main problem with infernal wrath is that I am stupid and keep forgetting that I can use it...
Gomez
[what i said]
I can only state my personal impression of infernal wrath, but i dont think calling it one of the worst racial powers is to far of the truth (unmodified that is).
- It has by far the hardest trigger for an attackboost: You have to get hit, not only attacked.
- It has a very limmited timewindow to activate: It has to be your next turn, after receiving a hit.
- It has hard target-restriction: You can use it only on the enemy that hit you.
- It has a rather limmited effect: + 1 to hit isnt that great to start with, but also does this only apply to the target (an AoE-Power wont get the +1 to additional targets in the area). The additional damage is nice, but again limited. allmost any other racial power with damage effect lets you choose between atleast two attributes. IW is only connected to Cha, not Int.
- It requires an minor action: Why does channeling my fury requiere an minor action, not a free one?
All these restrictions and the small bonus it proviedes are the reason i normally refere to it as "inferior wrath".
okay, i can respect your points. i humbly disagree with some, but i can respect.
- i don't mind that i have to get hit in order to activate it. i do take several hits during each encounter. at least i have one tool to gain some revenge for one of the hits with a particularly nasty damage roll.
- it does have a time window. so i have to keep that in mind and watch for opportunities.
- it does have a target restriction. so i have to keep in mind that i better use it on a target that has been hard to hit, or simply enjoy the extra damage on an enemy i might have easily hit anyway.
- +1 is not much, i'd rather see a +2. but as a warlock/bard, my CHA is +3 which gives me a good bonus to damage on top of curse damage. in fact it is helful to add damage to a bard power that might not have much damage and can't add curse damage.
- okay, minor action... true. i can't say anything to that. i wish that i could simply ignite my fury without spending an action. i typically say that i use it on the enemy's turn after being hit, then i simply remember that i have pre-used my minor action at the start of my turn. since i don't often have to move much, i can easily stand still, place a curse [unless i used vengeful curse or already cursed], and make my attack.
[what i said]
My main problem with infernal wrath is that I am stupid and keep forgetting that I can use it...
Gomez
yep. i'm always watching for a good chance to use it.
As it comes to infernal wrath compared to other racial powers, it just lacks the feeling of a tactical move you trigger at the exact right moment. All the other racial powers related to dealing additional damage are either free to use whenever you want to (like dragon breath, Infernal Quills, Razor Storm...), are related to a hit (Furious Assault, Dark Reaping...) or atleast react to the triggering effect as an immediate action (Firepulse).
Tieflings have many racial boni, that distinguish them from other races, yet it is infernal wrath, that gets the most love. Where are those feats related to bloodied targets, your fire resistance or demonic bloodline? The majority of feats so far, were all related to a rather weak racial power, which was extremly difficult to trigger when needed.
This is my personal oppinion, but investing feats on a power i can use 1/encounter, which i cant trigger at will and that hits only 5% better than an average attack, isnt whorth it.
So said: Infernal Wrath is nice to have, but is the worst of all the tieflings racial features (+1 to hit/bloodied, fire resistance and even the bonus to bluff/stealth) and giving it this many feats and allmost none to those other features, is one of the greates mistakes so far concearning tiefling-feats.
Any info on how taking multiple feats which swap the Infernal Wrath would work? At the moment, I would assume that you have 1 IW power. However, if one takes Diabolic Soul, you go from an encounter to a Daily. Here's an idea, which may be way overpowered, but tell me yer thinks:
You can use any Infernal Wrath version you have by choice, one per encounter, and Diabolic Soul, still once per day. Basically, any encounter where you do NOT use Diabolic Soul, you could use one of the other versions.
Is that doable, or entirely unbalanced?
Cheers
OK, So I know this is from an old thread but...
Any info on how taking multiple feats which swap the Infernal Wrath would work? At the moment, I would assume that you have 1 IW power. However, if one takes Diabolic Soul, you go from an encounter to a Daily. Here's an idea, which may be way overpowered, but tell me yer thinks:
You can use any Infernal Wrath version you have by choice, one per encounter, and Diabolic Soul, still once per day. Basically, any encounter where you do NOT use Diabolic Soul, you could use one of the other versions.
Is that doable, or entirely unbalanced?
Cheers
I don't think it works that way. If you take Diabolic Soul, you no longer have an Infernal Wrath to use.