Dragon 391Essentials Assassin: A Player's Essentials Playtest Class
by Rodney Thompson
Meet the executioner assassin—30 levels of back-stabbing, poison-wielding excitement.
Talk about this Article here.
This article has me liking essentials. This assassin build is awsome! It feels exactly like an assassin should feel.
P.S. The build needs more epic level poison options. You end up learning 3 25th level poisons of your choice. But, there are only 3 level 25 poisons that exist. That is lame. It order to give the build more replay value it needs more epic level poisons (so that you end up having to choose a few poisons that you can not have on any given play-through).
Problems though: You can only gain 15th level poisons (seems to be the equivalent of normal Assassin dailies) via the Paragon Executioner path. However, the level 25 Epic Poisons and level 29 Epic Poisoner let you use level 15 poisons, you just don't know any and can't replace them with level 1 poisons. Kind of weird. Also it's unclear if you get a level 16 utility if you don't paragon into Paragon Executioner (could just be a common feature of Essentials Paragons). Probably could use another usage of Assassin's Strike later in the progression. As I gather, a Slayer can eventually get 4 uses of Power Strike for 3[W], so 12[W] spread out. An Assassin gets 7d10, but it is in one burst, but I'm sure somebody can do the math on that.
It's fairly nice, I'd have to study it more. I would miss teleporting around and gaining insub if I converted my LFR Assassin, but the added features might make up for it. Seems like this would really shine a lot more in a home campaign, but that's cool too. Has some nice utilities to poach in any case. Shrouds are a mechanic I'm not sure I'll miss, though many Assassin feats are dependent on the shroud feature. Speaking of which, there isn't any new feats to support the new features.
Problems though: You can only gain 15th level poisons (seems to be the equivalent of normal Assassin dailies) via the Paragon Executioner path. However, the level 25 Epic Poisons and level 29 Epic Poisoner let you use level 15 poisons, you just don't know any and can't replace them with level 1 poisons. Kind of weird. Also it's unclear if you get a level 16 utility if you don't paragon into Paragon Executioner (could just be a common feature of Essentials Paragons). Probably could use another usage of Assassin's Strike later in the progression. As I gather, a Slayer can eventually get 4 uses of Power Strike for 3[W], so 12[W] spread out. An Assassin gets 7d10, but it is in one burst, but I'm sure somebody can do the math on that.
This is the best technical feedback I've seen so far, you outlined what may really be a non-intended side-effect. Please, serve the community and send it as feedback as explained in the article!!
We get attack finess, wich is a solid strikermechanic, still it yet misses feat support and doesnt work in any way like an "essential" shadows shroud.
We get some "at will" powers associated with a special weapon that either dont deal damage at all, but have controll effects, or try to compensate the low weapondamage by adding an additinal +1[W].
Additional Hit Points, the loss of movement at will teleport and the requirement of beeing hidden for some features will change the gamestyle massively i think.
Some of the classfeatures however look like they were simply added to to compensate the damagemechanic of this class. Death Attack for example and later on Vital Strike look like they were added to kompensate some of the damagedifferences to other strikers. Especially death attack looks like it has to avoid that an assasin needs one additional attack to deliver a killing blow other strikers achive without a boost.
The poison powers are nice, but i cant see how they make this class easier to play for beginners.
The whole "essentials style" of presenting new classes might be nice for those new to the game to follow a "red string", i personally dislike it. The class somewhat looks bloated to me and it takes more time to figure out the core features if i have to read over fairly common knowledge like "ability score increases", "gain a utility power at level x", "take a new feat"... . Its like cooking with a coach behind you allways telling you "now add salt, water..., while you allready have it in your hand, ready to add it.
So my quint essence of this essentials assasin: You get a nice sort of brutal rogue with solid powers and pinch of the old assasin in it.
Edit: Since this class isnt finished yet and some of the developers might actually read this id like to add some questions/critics.
- Why is this class Dex and Cha based in the entry? Infact i havent found a single use of charisma in the mechanics. Ok bluff and streetwise are related skills, but same goes for perception and insight which are wisdom based for example and quite usefull too.
- Why the plain +1d6 damage boost each tier? This is as simple as it could be (hey essentials) but still it also makes the lowest sense. Even the fluff text isnt really appealing. So an assasin has to kill his targets fast, therefore he deals more damage by making acurate strikes. My question: And what about all the other stikers out there? Arent they trying to kill the target as soon as possible and with the hightest accuracy they have? Any other class has some sort of caracteristic here, why not add one that fits an assasin better?
- Doing poison effects is nice, but the way it is now, it destroys much of the "simplicity" the class hass by adding x different poisons usable x times a day. Why not adding an encounter feature like assasins strike instead with some improoving poison effect?
- Vital strike: Why ad this playstyle related mechanic so late to the build? So until level 16 an assasin fights mainly as he likes to and at that point he better starts getting CA every turn?
- Where did all the shadow fell fluff go to? It was the main feature of the original assasin, why not this one?
- Ki foki? Why does this class has ki foki, it has no implement powers. This is a balast from the old assasin mainly added in fear of loosing its connection to the old version. It works fine to compensate the disadvantages of those weapon related powers you get from your guild, but it is merely a backdoor to make the idea of an assasin using tons of special weapons work, it has no real story nor implement background anymore.
There's basically only one thing that I think you got wrong on an objective level: the fact that Essential = Easy/Beginner's.
It is true for the Red Box (which actually has *simplified* versions of Essential classes), and maybe for the first book too, but the concept of Essentials per se is that they represent the most essential builds: the builds that better represent the classes, and that better express the feel of their D&D iconic identity.
Mike Mearls discussed this in an interview I can point to you if you want (it's been published by the Escapist website).
So I think we should eliminate all the criticism focused on the "difficulty" of the class. This is the new directions of all the next builds we're getting, and it is not associated to difficulty level, it's just different so that a different feel can be added to classes that would have otherwise remained pretty much the same until the next edition.
So, for example, I'm perfectly fine with the poisons, I actually think it's the best feature of the class, adding depth, flavor, and role-playing hooks.
Same for Ki foci. They finally stated that they're not going to be physical object, so it's really a natural (shadow) magic reservoir of Assassins. I agree it would need flavor text that explains some more about the relationship of Executioners with the Shadofell, though so I agree with you about this point.
Vital Strike is a PP feature. And is okayish for a PP, I'm even sure there's an exactly equal feature in another published PP. Maybe it shouldn't be named Vital Strike, since "vital strikes" is all the assassin has been doing since level 1. But the problem is just the naming.
Cha as secondary stat is just a typo IMO. This is a class meant to leave freedom regarding your choice of secondary stat. And I like that, I guess it's an Essentials thing, meant to let you choose ability scores a bit more basing your choices on flavor and character development than pure mechanical reasons.
The plain +1d6, as you might have guessed from my other opinions, is also very good IMO, because it makes the class really feel competent in damage-dealing. They deal more damage always, with all attacks. As stupid as it sounds, I think it's well thought out for this particular niche.
So all in all, I would just adjust the flavor in order to explain more about the shadow power-source, and the training of the Executioner (especially pointing out differences with Rogues/Thieves and Rangers/Scouts). And I would correct the Cha mistake, and possibly even two other mechanical problems others found out (one has to do with the Brutal-like mechanic acquired later on and its loop-hole when combined with Vorpal weapons (creating INFINITE damage) and the other would be the balancing of poisons per level that @fugacityD pointed out above.
Incidently, yes I do see the irony in having the Assassin be dual-power source.
@Kartesh
There's basically only one thing that I think you got wrong on an objective level: the fact that Essential = Easy/Beginner's.
It is true for the Red Box (which actually has *simplified* versions of Essential classes), and maybe for the first book too, but the concept of Essentials per se is that they represent the most essential builds: the builds that better represent the classes, and that better express the feel of their D&D iconic identity.
I give you that point here, essentials isnt beginner only material but a new way to design classes.
However the way essential classes are presentet at the moment contains a lot of things an experienced player doesnt need and in my case, doesnt want for it disturbs me trying to figure out a classes main quallitys at first sight.
Essential class articles are similar to a blueprint or better a checklist. Each one containing the main rules of character creation again and again imbedded in it. This is nice to have for all those who dont want to invest much time into improving their character, and instead only have to pick one of maybe 3 features once in a while. It looks nice at the moment, but it limits a specific class by making hard to freely add features like the old system did.
If i look at the general rules for character creation in the PHB, i have to say those look more like "essentials" than the new classes do. Everyone reading those rules knows when all classes gets: a feat, armor/attack boni, powers, ablility points... . Essentials doese this over and over again only related to every class they design, which is nothing more than a "copy / paste" maske in which they include the new classes features.
Not my style, but i can live with it and there seem to be people out there liking it.
I'm perfectly fine with the poisons, I actually think it's the best feature of the class, adding depth, flavor, and role-playing hooks.
Same here, i like the association of assasins and poisons, i just dont like the particular mechanic, but that might be my generall disliking for "x times a day" features. It leaves me with the feeling of "Oh id like to poison that guy over there but hey i only can make x number of poison doses each day for i get bored to easy and normal poisons are to expensice".
If it was me, i whould have given the striker mechanic of the new assasin a poison flavor, it whould have been the style i associate with assasins.
Same for Ki foci. They finally stated that they're not going to be physical object, so it's really a natural (shadow) magic reservoir of Assassins. I agree it would need flavor text that explains some more about the relationship of Executioners with the Shadofell, though so I agree with you about this point.
Still this statement looks to me like an easy whay to make game mechanics work out well, rather than something they allways had planed for ki foki.
In the end they give this class several "at will" powers each related to a different weapon, so in order to make those powers koexist with item distribution, they changed the implement character of the ki foki to what it is now (by the way how do i improve/buy a ki focus, do i swallow the gold and get more focused to shadowarts that way?).
Vital Strike is a PP feature. And is okayish for a PP, I'm even sure there's an exactly equal feature in another published PP. Maybe it shouldn't be named Vital Strike, since "vital strikes" is all the assassin has been doing since level 1. But the problem is just the naming.
As for now, calling the level 11-20 features a paragon path, seems to me like squeezing D&D 3.5content into the 4.0 system (you know the picture of the baby hammering the cube into the cylinder slot?).
It is an exclusive assasin (executioner) PP that is poorly visible to anyone new to the system, since all the PP mechanic in inbedded into the general class level system. Anyone new to D&D and not willing to pick this PP will have some problems integrating a different one, for he has to figure out wich of those level checkpoints he has to replace.
The plain +1d6, as you might have guessed from my other opinions, is also very good IMO, because it makes the class really feel competent in damage-dealing. They deal more damage always, with all attacks. As stupid as it sounds, I think it's well thought out for this particular niche.
The mechanic is solid, fore sure it just looks rather "naked" compared to those of most other strikers. It seems to me like: "Hey we need some sort of striker mechanic that deals atleast 1d6 of damage or more if we add some restirictions." "Why not do a plain 1d6?" "Hey great idea we didnt have that yet, it was infront of our noses alle the time and we didnt see it. You are a genius dude!" "Thanks i know."
After all it is mainly a question of personal favors, which makes me wonder, what do you think this new class is for you? Do you think it is an essentialsversion of the 4.0 assasin, or do you agree with my opinion of beeing something different (i dont mean the definition of the word assasin here, it sure fits that one)?
Aside from that and on topic, this playtest does intrigue me. I have a player interested in Assassin for DDE3 and I think I'll request he use this playtest so that we can all get a look at how it plays and integrates with a group, particularly a full group.
I'm enjoying the additional perspective of class designs available through Essentials, but I am dismayed that Cleric thusfar is the only leader. Though Druid will be a leader, I think that 4e brought in additional classes that are archetypal even if they are not from the original classics.
Despite the original plan of only developing 10 Essentials products, I'd be pleased to see additional archetypal classes given this new perspective of designing a class. It could really create a wide variety of material to draw upon for creating campaigns. The Essentials are also an easy way to create a few stock NPC classes that are quick to build and easy to manage from behind the screen. It would be fascinating to see Warrior, Adept, Aristocrat, Expert, Commoner developed for generic NPCs that one might run across and occassionally include in adventures.
Problems though: You can only gain 15th level poisons (seems to be the equivalent of normal Assassin dailies) via the Paragon Executioner path.
Also it's unclear if you get a level 16 utility if you don't paragon into Paragon Executioner (could just be a common feature of Essentials Paragons).
Not all the paragon tier features are tied to the paragon path. The ones that do are marked as Guild executioner paragon path feature in the writeup, and (guild executioner) in the paragon tier table. So Advanced Poisons (the feature granting 15th level poisons) and the level 16 utility wouldn't go anywhere if you took a different path.
As I gather, a Slayer can eventually get 4 uses of Power Strike for 3[W], so 12[W] spread out. An Assassin gets 7d10, but it is in one burst, but I'm sure somebody can do the math on that.
I don't have the Slayer in front of me, but does the 4th use of Power Strike come from the slayer paragon path? If that were the case, the difference wouldn't be so pronounced, given that Assassin's Strike gains an extra 2d10 from the assassin path. Anyway, concentrated damage is usually more valuable than damage spread out across turns, particularly since it makes it easier to exploit maximized dice from critical hits or coups de grace.
Finally, I'd like to mention that I've fallen deeply in love with the Death Attack feature. I think it more than makes up for the boring +d6 to damage feature, as it truly turns you into an Executioner. Damage-wise, it's probably worth around 5 extra damage / tier each time it triggers (since enemies should have anywhere from 1 to 10 damage at heroic, you can average), so it's nothing to sneeze at, either.
Attack Finesse
Great so I get melee training for free.
Quick Swap
Awesome, I get yet another feat for free. So at level 1 I get two free feats. Oh wait a minute. No I don't. I only get 1 feat for free. The other feat is preselected for me. So instead of getting to chose a feat I want, I'm instead forced to take quick draw. That gives me so much more customisability.
Assassin's Guilds
I actually approve of these in general. They appear to encourage players to use non-standard weapons which always adds variety. However for my "assassin" in particular, I'm not a member of a guild. I'm a member of a secret temple to the Raven Queen. So any flavour this might have introduced is made moot immediately.
Assassin's Strike
So instead of "studying an enemy" which I've had quite a bit of fun with and sunk a few feats into it to add flavour and utility, I get a single encounter power. I can see why the Essential assassin is called "martial". Apparently its inherited some of the fighter's boring by giving the players little to no choices.
Ki Focus
This is about the only thing I actually recognise from 4th ed Assassin's.
Conclusion
Some interesting elements, but most of it is bland. Where my assassin has quite flavourful powers (reaching into his own shadow to pull out a noose) and also has powers which introduce interesting roleplaying opportunities and tactical choices (keeping a monster busy by turning invisible and the monster then rampaging through the room looking for me), the Essential version offers me some bland options that while it might do more damage, isn't as much fun to roleplay.
Given how much people complain about how the assassin isn't a real striker (I certainly have fun with my assassin), I was interested to see how they updated it. But they haven't actually updated the 4th ed Assassin. They've simply created a new class and tacked on the same name. This only affirms my dislike for Essentials and my decision to stick with 4th ed instead of moving onto the new edition.
And it is a new edition. They've swapped out any and all references to the PHB and replaced it with Essentials books which are suppose to be optional rather than required.
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Dragon 391
Essentials Assassin: A Player's Essentials Playtest Class
by Rodney Thompson
Meet the executioner assassin—30 levels of back-stabbing, poison-wielding excitement.
Talk about this Article here.
Dragon 391Essentials Assassin: A Player's Essentials Playtest Class
by Rodney Thompson
Meet the executioner assassin—30 levels of back-stabbing, poison-wielding excitement.
Talk about this Article here.
Meh, I seem to be unable to bring myself to read the class in detail due to the Essentials format(whether that i because of a fault of the format or my own personal grudge I don't know). So about the only thing I can comment on is my dislike of the idea of a dual power source class and or build, but I'm clearly not the target audience of WotC anymore, so I doubt they give a damn about my feelings on that. *sigh*
Mostly agreed, and I've otherwise been generally excited about the Essential classes/builds. The formating is just a pain to read through. The constant intro texts in front of every single power is just a distraction from the meat of the class. Having to reprint features at each tier to increment their damage instead of just laying the progression out when it is first gained makes judging the class's overall potential difficult. Finally, I do not need basic advancement rules, like stat increases, included in class progression, even for newbie players that seems like excessive hand holding.
As for the duel power source, I'm not really in favor of it, but I'm not greatly opposed either. However, I am sorely disappointed by this new Assassin, who seems to have lost most of what made him special. Stripped of most of his shadow magic he seems more like a modified slayer/thief than a new build of the original class.
The only thing I truely like is the daily poisons instead of daily attacks, though I can't shake the feeling that they would have made a better pseudo-class (like spellscared) than an actual class specific feature. However, only a single encounter power even if it is really powerful bugs me, and I'm not sure Death Attack and extra at-wills make up the difference.
Not all the paragon tier features are tied to the paragon path. The ones that do are marked as Guild executioner paragon path feature in the writeup, and (guild executioner) in the paragon tier table. So Advanced Poisons (the feature granting 15th level poisons) and the level 16 utility wouldn't go anywhere if you took a different path.
Yeah that's definitely a big problem I have with the Essential presentation format. Beyond the needless repetition and bloated descriptive text, having the paragon path built directly into the class progression makes it difficult to tell what's what with only a cursory glance. The labels help, but are easily missed as they tend to disappear into the overall blurred haze of text.
Attack Finesse
Great so I get melee training for free.
Quick Swap
Awesome, I get yet another feat for free. So at level 1 I get two free feats. Oh wait a minute. No I don't. I only get 1 feat for free. The other feat is preselected for me. So instead of getting to chose a feat I want, I'm instead forced to take quick draw. That gives me so much more customisability.
Can you explain this? You get the equivalent 2 free feats and one of your choice at first level. Im not sure where you are getting the preselected feat form.
Not all the paragon tier features are tied to the paragon path. The ones that do are marked as Guild executioner paragon path feature in the writeup, and (guild executioner) in the paragon tier table. So Advanced Poisons (the feature granting 15th level poisons) and the level 16 utility wouldn't go anywhere if you took a different path.
Yeah that's definitely a big problem I have with the Essential presentation format. Beyond the needless repetition and bloated descriptive text, having the paragon path built directly into the class progression makes it difficult to tell what's what with only a cursory glance. The labels help, but are easily missed as they tend to disappear into the overall blurred haze of text.
Perhaps some kind of color coding would help here? Just a bit of different color for the paragon path features might be enough to tell them apart at first glance.
Here's the feedback though, that I sent on the Assassin in particular:
[sblock Feedback Submitted]
Increase in Hit Points is good, it'd be nice if this applied to the original assassin as well.
Assassin's Strike, I don't think needs the helpless information, since it's just reiterating what you do with a Coup de Grace action.
Proficiency in Unarmed attacks does not exist as far as I know.. Or at least there's no proficiency bonus for it, so it has no meaning. Which means Unarmed Throw is effectively Implement vs. AC attack, so its going to be very inaccurate most of the time, should be reflex, or there needs to be some improved unarmed attack proficiency (similar to the Monk's Unarmed Strike)
Unseen Spearhead I foresee lots of problems, since by treating them as helpless you can Coup de Grace, which is auto-crit, which equals insane damage (especially given the encounter power to max all those d10 dice). Imagine Crit-Fisher builds, that no longer have to fish.
Poisons applying until an extended rest, are a good idea, but might lead to some odd things. It'll put a lot on the DM to either outright disallow their use in some cases, or the assassin will be trying to figure out on any preplanned fight how to get the poison ingested by the BBEG.
Flawless Disguise - If the Assassin isn't trained in bluff... this is worth less than an additional skill training would be.
[/sblock]
Some interesting elements, but most of it is bland. Where my assassin has quite flavourful powers (reaching into his own shadow to pull out a noose) and also has powers which introduce interesting roleplaying opportunities and tactical choices (keeping a monster busy by turning invisible and the monster then rampaging through the room looking for me), the Essential version offers me some bland options that while it might do more damage, isn't as much fun to roleplay.
+50. I'll keep my shrouds and shadow powers. To me, this iteration of the Assassin takes away everything that was exciting. Now, it's just another damage maxxer like the Avenger. Plus, this type of assassin always struck me more as a rogue, anyway.
I really like almost all the mechanics of the class. The ki foci works well to allow the class easy bonuses to hit and damage (via feats) to all weapons. This class is very much about regularly switching up the weapons it uses in order to use the best weapon for any given job. The fact that all of its at-wills are tied to a different weapon really gets that feel across! And using poisons for daily powers, and shadow abilities for utility powers, really helps to peg the flavor and feel of this class. It is great! I love it!
However, there is one thing I really HATE about this class. In terms of poisons, it has too few options. I mean, it gets the right amount of poisons, and the right amount of options in terms of what it can use while it is being played. But it gets very few poisons to choose from after its batch of 1st level poisons. If I counted right, of its epic level poisons it will eventually be forced to choose all three of them. It learns 3 25th level poison recipes by 30th level, but only 3 25th level poison recipies exist! That is REALLY lame.
What this class needs to polish it off is more poison options. 4e does not need a return to the days of 3e where you got "4 different options" at 4 different levels, but only 4 options to choose from total (which means you never really got a different option, just a choice at which levels you would gain which options). Please, create more level 15 and 25 poison options in order to give this build more replay value. There should always be a few poisons you are forced not to gain in order to choose the ones you do gain. That gives a class more replay value.
What this class needs to polish it off is the return of its 26th level utility power option, and more poison options. There is no reason to remove the utility power. Every class gets an epic destiny power at that level. There is no reason the assassin should get only an epic destiny power and not a utility power as well at that level.
You might want to double check. I'm looking at the full list of level 26 utility powers in the Compendium right now. They are all tied to a specific destiny, not one is class power. The Executioner says "You gain a power associated with your epic destiny," and that's all any character of any class ever gets at that level. I don't see any problem.
And 4e does not need a return to the days of 3e where you got "4 different options" at 4 different levels, but only 4 options to choose from total (which means you never really got a different option, just a choice at which levels you would gain which options). Please, create more level 15 and 25 poison options in order to give this build more replay value. There should always be a few poisons you are forced not to gain in order to choose the ones you do gain. That gives a class more replay value.
This I agree with, but this is only the playtest, so limited options is to be expected. It wouldn't surprise me to see a wider variety of poisons available come the finalized version in November.
What this class needs to polish it off is the return of its 26th level utility power option, and more poison options. There is no reason to remove the utility power. Every class gets an epic destiny power at that level. There is no reason the assassin should get only an epic destiny power and not a utility power as well at that level.
You might want to double check. I'm looking at the full list of level 26 utility powers in the Compendium right now. They are all tied to a specific destiny, not one is class power. The Executioner says "You gain a power associated with your epic destiny," and that's all any character of any class ever gets at that level. I don't see any problem.
Good catch! You are correct, and I was wrong. All I want then is more poison options and this class is good to go.
I am not entirely sure why, but I sincerely feel that "re-iterations" such as these are gutting the best parts of 4th edition. I loved the original assassin and while I may incorporate some of these aspects into my character I feel like we are loosing a big part of the general concept which defines D&D. D&D is by its nature complex. It is supposed to have an unbelievable and slightly overwhelming amount of customization because it is (in my very unprofessional opinion) to give the best possible roleplay options possible. We are not playing a hack and slash video game, we are creating, layer by layer, and immersive roleplaying experience which we can delve into for a few hours a week. I enjoy the playtest options but I really wish we could get back to regular 4th edition..
What a load of bologna. This class does get just as many options as any other class. A regular class, without an epic destiny or a paragon path, gets 2 at-will attack powers, 3 per encounter attack powers, 3 per day attack powers, and 5 utility powers. This class gets 5 utility powers just like any other class. It gets 3 per day powers just like any other class, and actually gets to know roughly 6 per day powers (choosing which powers it wants to use on any given day after an extended rest). It gets 4 at-will powers, which is 2 extra options. It gets no per encounter powers to choose from, which leaves it at a net loss of 1 option over a regular class. In return it gains extra class abilities, including one fixed encounter power. Claiming that this guts options from the assassin class, or is a hack and slash build compared to other D&D builds, is totally fallacious. The only real problem this class has is that it gets too few daily powers to choose from.
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Dragon 391
Essentials Assassin: A Player's Essentials Playtest Class
by Rodney Thompson
Meet the executioner assassin—30 levels of back-stabbing, poison-wielding excitement.
Talk about this Article here.
Not all the paragon tier features are tied to the paragon path. The ones that do are marked as Guild executioner paragon path feature in the writeup, and (guild executioner) in the paragon tier table. So Advanced Poisons (the feature granting 15th level poisons) and the level 16 utility wouldn't go anywhere if you took a different path.
Yeah that's definitely a big problem I have with the Essential presentation format. Beyond the needless repetition and bloated descriptive text, having the paragon path built directly into the class progression makes it difficult to tell what's what with only a cursory glance. The labels help, but are easily missed as they tend to disappear into the overall blurred haze of text.
Yeah, thanks for that catch. Damn reading Essentials entries is confusing.
I'm still not sure the loss of shade form and shadow step is a good trade off for more straight damage (though damage output was the major complaint of the old assassin). Still need to think about this one.
- The article itself seems to be missing the by-line. I had to check the web page to see who made this version.
I really hope that the first Assassin gets his class updated to be Martial/Shadow - there are too many feats in the old assassin article (Dragon 373) that required a martial class to take them.
- Are the powers listed here Exploits or Hexes?
Did the Slayer or Knight get the basic hitpoints and hp per level changed from the baseline fighter? Should we expect the old Assassin to get 1 more HP per level?
- Page 79 and page 77 differ on what weapons the Assassin is proficient with. Page 77 matches the old build's set up, page 79 looks like the Essentials' version, minus the Guild training.
Will all of the Guilds be available to both versions of an Assassin? It looks like the two guilds in this Essentials article could work with the old build, giving the old Assassin characters three new weapon-specific At-Wills instead of temp hit points or free bonus damage. I'm not sure about the other way - the article says that the Executioner Assassin can choose between the two Guilds listed in this article. It seems like they could take one of the other guild choices, but would be greatly weakened for doing it.
- All of the At-Will powers are lacking a level number.
- Are the Guild-specific At-Wills available to a Half-Elf as a Dilletant power or a Human Assassin from a different Guild?
The Poisons being a Consumable replacement to a Daily Power are a really cool idea, it is a great way to get Dailies back for Martial Essentials classes. Are these meant to only be available to the Executioner Assassin? It looks like an Executioner Assassin is the only one with the Poison Use feature, and is thereforethe only one who can create the poison, but it could be shared with anyone else - giving a Leader flavor to an Assassin with Poison Use. Perhaps the Feature needs to specifiy that only an Assassin can use the poisoned weapon without getting harmed.
- Can Poison Use become an Assassin-only feat?
- Will the Quick Swap Feature become available as an Assassin-only feat, or retrofitted to the old Assassin? This could be incredibly useful to the older version as well as this version.
- Carrion Crawler Brain Juice and Nitharit Poison both are applied to a weapon or one piece of ammunition and have an effect that goes through the Encounter. This essentially makes these two poisons totally ruined for League of Whispers Guild members. Maybe it can be applied to all of your ammunition, but it will wear off in 5 minutes.
Powers:
- Distracting Illusion - Should the Illusion be made with a free Bluff check at creation, or a new Free Action Bluff check anytime someone tries to see through it?
- Silent Stalker - It looks like this Utility Power allows an Assassin to throw away the requirements for being Hidden, replacing them with "within 2 squares of an enemy". Is this really the intended effect, because it is AWESOME!
- Nimble Drop - an unleveled (because it is At-Will, perhaps?) Utility power at level 4 is really atypical. Would this Utility Power be available to any Assassin at level 6?
That is all I have for now, based on a read-through of the build. Obviously, I have not had time to play it! I hope it was helpful.
The Good:
- Increased HP and Surges is always good. Still a glass cannon but its tempered glass now.
- Attack finesse, its better than Shrouds but also more open to abuse once you start going after multi-attacks.
- A reason to use one handed weapons is nice. Never felt that the Fullblade was an Assassin's weapon.
- Poisons that are somewhat useful? Is this still 4e? For the most part these are nice alternatives to daily powers. They aren't as versatile or as powerful as a real daily power, but being able to pick 1 or 2 that you do like and just use them multiple times a day is flavorful.
- Assassin's Strike is nice. Seems a little overly cautious on the "Thou shall not recharge" but whatever. An eventual feat that lets you use it twice per encounter would be nice.
- Death Attack is nice, but assumes you're making the last blow on the target. I'll have to play test and see how often it comes up. Seems a little unpredictable so its usefulness may vary.
The Meh:
- Some of the weapon attack powers are underwhelming. Kukuri Lunge seems kind of silly, but that just may be me. I don't see Kukuris as piercing charging weapons but rather as a "slice your throat" type of weapon.
- Unarmed Throw should be vs Fort or Reflex.
- Some powers come with free moves which is nice, but I'd rather have Shadow Step.
- Your guild type determines which weapon powers you can use. It would be nice to have both a Spear and a Hand Crossbow. Not sure what the balance issue here is since there seems to be nothing else distinguishing the two builds as they don't require a secondary stat.
The Bad:
The Ugly:
Final notes I'd like to make. Make this its own class, maybe even change the name. I can see why WotC wouldn't just so the class can take utilities and feats from the Assassin 1.0 but really this is a completely different class. If anything maybe make it another Rogue build thats Martial/Shadow. Let it pick up Rogue feats. Or you can always change the name of the old Assassins to whatever, point is there's nothing in common between these two classes.
Which now brings me to the old Assassin 1.0: When are are going to see more support for that? Or is that officially a waste of digital space now?
- No Shade Form or Shadow Step? While many complained of how weak the Assassin 1.0 was the Assassin 2.0 got rid of perhaps the two best and iconic features of the Assassin. Was it too shadowy that the baby needed to be thrown out with the bath water?
- The odd part is how some of the powers require that you be hidden yet there don't seem to be more way to help you hide which Shade Form and Assassin powers actually helped with.
- Needs more At-will powers per guild. By level 7 I have 3 out of 4 at wills. By 17 all 4 of them. I guess if you want to carry around a bunch of weapons and only use Ki Focus thats okay. But take for example the Red Scales Unarmed Throw, i guess its a nice control options but there are better ways to push and knock prone and still get damage. If I saved that as my level 17 at-will i haven't really gained anything. If you can take at-wills from the other guild type (or if the guild types mixed up melee and ranged powers) it would feel a bit more useful.
- Blindside is too situational unless you're a gnome.
- Paragon and Epic levels need more utility powers.
- The Essentials format for class layout or whatever is cluttered and annoying. 11 pages into the article and I'm still on level 1 features. Fluff is nice... too much is just bloat.
The Ugly:
- Flawless Disguise is pointless if you don't have Bluff trained. Some campaigns may not even find this useful at all. Make it a utility power and give a better level 8 feature.
- Shadow Coffin is cute for RP and what not but has little or no value for a level 13 feature when most classes gain an encounter power. Also the power should be called "Proof of Purchase".
- No new Feats? WTF?
- No new Magic Items or Ki Foci?
Final notes I'd like to make. Make this its own class, maybe even change the name. I can see why WotC wouldn't just so the class can take utilities and feats from the Assassin 1.0 but really this is a completely different class. If anything maybe make it another Rogue build thats Martial/Shadow. Let it pick up Rogue feats. Or you can always change the name of the old Assassins to whatever, point is there's nothing in common between these two classes.
Which now brings me to the old Assassin 1.0: When are are going to see more support for that? Or is that officially a waste of digital space now?
- Lvl 13 Shadow Coffin power..
what happens if you bottle a creature that normally animates or re-animates a round later?
1) They are trapped untill you let them out
2) They are automaticly released - Essentials style layout.. this is horrible for anyone that wants to take a seperate Paragon or Epic Destiny, now you have to check the paragon & epic destiny section for your class, filter out the stuff that does not apply, and add in the new path abilities that you earn. PLEASE, combine the class features, you are wasting word count just to fill up the pages.
- Lvl 11 Blindside (PP Feature).. this is worthless, replace it with the abilty to regain your assassin strike when you action point.
- Lvl 11 Executioners Action (PP Feature).. change the wording "deal 4 damage instead or 1, 2, or 3 when you roll a 1, 2 or 3 on a damage die" this eliminates the infinite damage of vorpal weapons.
- Poisons: these are described as items, but no mention of Common/uncommon/rare status or cost to create them. You need to have creation costs so "permenant" versions of the poisons can be crafted.
- Ki strike, move the ability to add ki strike to poison attacks out of the individual poison powers and into the ki strike class feature. This will allow assassins to increase the accuracy with standard poison secondary attacks.
- Items/weapons: poisoners kit has no listed cost.
- League weapon attacks: remove the league requirement, this gives more flexability on character build.. I dont want to be forced into those specific 4 attacks powers.
- Leage weapon attacks: these should have Assassin level 1? (that way they are swapable with standard assassin powers)
- You currently have NO powers that use shortbow or generic 1h military/simple.. which you are proficient in.. those weapons will never be used if you at-will attacks dont allow them.
- I suggest converting the "specific" weapon requirements on the at-wills into "melee or ranged weapon" requirements.
And the original assassin build has not disappeared. This build does not replace it. It is, for all intents and purposes, a new class. It is just a new class that can share feats and (some) paragon paths with the old assassin. The old assassin is not a waste of digital space. Anyone who wants to play a more "shadowdancer" style assassin, complete with shade form and shadow step, will opt for the older assassin. Someone who wants to opt for a more "dagger and poison" style assassin, with just a few utility hexes to help them get to their target, will opt for this build of the assassin.
Which, by the way, is why I am totally ok with this assassin not getting shadow step or shade form. I like the fact that both the old assassin and the new assassin have their own shtick. I like the fact that the new assassin does not get shadow step and shade form. It keeps the old assassin competitive. This assassin has better damage output, that assassin has better utility, both have a place in the game.
a) They work all the time (which doesn't jive with how I understand extra damage works)
b) Neither trigger with those attacks
c) Assassin's Strike can trigger, since it's based off of a Hit and not dealing damage.
d) Assassin's Strike can trigger, which in turn triggers Attack Finesse, which seems shady since it's somewhat out of order.
A reason to use one handed weapons is nice. Never felt that the Fullblade was an Assassin's weapon.
i couldn't agree with you more. smart move, wotc.
Poisons that are somewhat useful? Is this still 4e?
lol. i feel your pain.
No Shade Form or Shadow Step? While many complained of how weak the Assassin 1.0 was the Assassin 2.0 got rid of perhaps the two best and iconic features of the Assassin. Was it too shadowy that the baby needed to be thrown out with the bath water?
i wonder whether a more dedicated shadow dancer is in the works. perhaps one whose striker boost in damage comes directly from its shadow "porting". something along the lines of becoming infused with shadow energy (either (i) untyped or (ii) necrotic at low level and cold/necrotic at higher level) during the 'port and then releasing that energy with an attack. the shadow porting could be deemed a charge; one that gains more flexibility with levels/feats.
If anything maybe make it another Rogue build thats Martial/Shadow. Let it pick up Rogue feats.
that is a very good idea for this build.
There will need to be clarifications with how Assassin's Strike/Attack Finesse works with the no damage at-wills.
a) They work all the time (which doesn't jive with how I understand extra damage works)
b) Neither trigger with those attacks
c) Assassin's Strike can trigger, since it's based off of a Hit and not dealing damage.
d) Assassin's Strike can trigger, which in turn triggers Attack Finesse, which seems shady since it's somewhat out of order.
Both of those features mention "extra damage", so based on existing precedent I would think that neither is usable with no-damage powers.
One thing I would like to see in this class build would be more martial options at higher levels, so that an executioner assassin who chooses to eschew shadow powers can do so throughout his career. In the playtest version, that is only possible through 9th level -- at 10th level, all available choices are shadow powers. It gets a little worse at 13th level, where the class grants -- no choice -- a particular shadow encounter power.
This assassin does not need a name change. Part of what essentials does is create new class builds that vary dramatically from the parent class. See the slayer. It is a fighter that is not a defender, has no mark mechanic, and has striker style class features. See the knight, it is a fighter that gets full plate armor from the outset. The fact that this assassin build varies drastically from the original assassin is fine. And the way this class is designed, the name "assassin" is 100% the best fit. Hell, the name assassin fits this class better than it did the original 4e assassin class!
You're right. it doesn't "need" a name change. My point is that it simply doesn't have much in common with the Assassin 1.0 (beyond fluff).
*If it were up to me the Slayer, Knight, and Thief would also be their own classes, but its not up to me and thats a topic for another time.
And the original assassin build has not disappeared. This build does not replace it. It is, for all intents and purposes, a new class. It is just a new class that can share feats and (some) paragon paths with the old assassin. The old assassin is not a waste of digital space. Anyone who wants to play a more "shadowdancer" style assassin, complete with shade form and shadow step, will opt for the older assassin. Someone who wants to opt for a more "dagger and poison" style assassin, with just a few utility hexes to help them get to their target, will opt for this build of the assassin.
Eh the old Assassin needs a lot of love. I'd love to see the old Assassin drop the shroud mechanic and add in Assassin Strike and Attack Finesse. That to me would be a real improvement to the original class. I'd even keep it with the lower HP and surges.
Which, by the way, is why I am totally ok with this assassin not getting shadow step or shade form. I like the fact that both the old assassin and the new assassin have their own shtick. I like the fact that the new assassin does not get shadow step and shade form. It keeps the old assassin competitive. This assassin has better damage output, that assassin has better utility, both have a place in the game.
I'm not opposed to both classes existing. I just think this new one fits in more as a Rogue "build" (a la Thief) than the original Assassin 1.0.
I mean come on, wouldn't you love to access Rogue feats and Paragon Paths with this build? What are you taking from the old assassin besides maybe the Venom Hand feats?
This assassin does not need a name change. Part of what essentials does is create new class builds that vary dramatically from the parent class. See the slayer. It is a fighter that is not a defender, has no mark mechanic, and has striker style class features. See the knight, it is a fighter that gets full plate armor from the outset. The fact that this assassin build varies drastically from the original assassin is fine.
Not really.
The knight gets full plate, but it's still a close range martial defender. The slayer is a striker, but fighters were always quite effective sub-strikers. Both the fighter's new builds are still thematically the same as what came before them, this new assassin however is not. Mostly martial with very little mysticism, it has more in common with the rogue.
You're right. it doesn't "need" a name change. My point is that it simply doesn't have much in common with the Assassin 1.0 (beyond fluff).
*If it were up to me the Slayer, Knight, and Thief would also be their own classes, but its not up to me and thats a topic for another time.
Ok. Well, that is a subjective opinion. You are welcome to it. My subjective opinion differs.
Eh the old Assassin needs a lot of love. I'd love to see the old Assassin drop the shroud mechanic and add in Assassin Strike and Attack Finesse. That to me would be a real improvement to the original class. I'd even keep it with the lower HP and surges.
I would like to see the old assassin get some love. I am not against that. I would rather it get love by having its shroud mechanic fixed, and brought up to par with what other strikers are capable of.
I'm not opposed to both classes existing. I just think this new one fits in more as a Rogue "build" (a la Thief) than the original Assassin 1.0.
I mean come on, wouldn't you love to access Rogue feats and Paragon Paths with this build? What are you taking from the old assassin besides maybe the Venom Hand feats?
The assassin utilities. This class is all about using shadow magic utilities. That is why it is grouped together with the old assassin class. That is why I like it as a "martial/shadow" mixed power source class. Martial attacks, shadow utilities, and poison. And for the sake of more shadow based utilities, I prefer this class as an assassin build than a rogue build. It also, via its utilities, has more in common with the mechanics of the assassin than the rogue.
Not really.
The knight gets full plate, but it's still a close range martial defender. The slayer is a striker, but fighters were always quite effective sub-strikers. Both the fighter's new builds are still thematically the same as what came before them, this new assassin however is not. Mostly martial with very little mysticism, it has more in common with the rogue.
Subjective value judgments are subjective. We will have to agree to disagree. I think this class has as much to do with the assassin as the slayer does with the fighter. I think via its shadow themed utility powers it has more similarity with the assassin class (both thematically and mechanically) than any other class in the game. I like it as is...
Since those classes will allways have to live up to the expectations of those players comparing them to the original version. Most of this can be avoided by giving those new classes a different name, which is still in some way connected to the old class.
This new class fits the definition of an assasin, in terms of class mechanic it might even be closer than the original, but as i allready stated in a prior post, it is definetly not a "revamped assassin in Dungeons & Dragons® Essentialsstyle".
His utility powers might have the shadow keyword and this surely is a shadow class, but i dont like the idea of making this new class compatible to the old assasin, for they are really different in 90% of their core features, which in my oppinion will lead to many changes in existing assasin feats and items to match both classes.
Giving the new version its own feats whould be the best solution. Honesty what is so bad about making this new essential classes independent?
Likes:
- More HP/Surges: Extra toughness is something the assassin needed.
- Single Ability Dependence: Gives flexibility in Ability scores, a place I typically find lacking in 4e.
- Small Weapon Focus: The Quick Swap and Guild Weapon Attacks do a good job of emphasizing stealthy and thematic weapons... with exception (see below).
- Poisons As Daily Powers: Very flavorful, very thematic, a nice way to tackle daily powers.
- Martial Power: Expands feat selection with some nice options even without multiclassing feats (though I suspect alot of folks to multi into Rogue).
Meh:
- Melee Basic Attack: Its solid, but as a primary attack, optimizers are already seeing an advantage to getting proficient in the Full Blade or other big [w] weapon for damage output. Maybe creating a feat to allow you to do 2[w] damage with guild weapons on MBAs would be a thematic alternative (but causes a problem with Kukri Lunge, see below).
- Kukri Lunge: It looks solid but can be rendered effectively obsolete with a single weapon proficiency feat or alternative I mentioned (see above). Maybe add a little extra to it for flavor and to keep it relevant, like a slow effect, combat advantage, or not provoke attacks of opportunity; something, anything to keep it as flavorful as the rest.
- Some Basic Feat and Item Support: specific to this build would be appreciated to help round things out.
Dislikes:
- The Light shield: I like the bonus to AC and Reflex, but it doesn't fit the theme well. Maybe a shadow based feature that approximates a light shield or grant concealment as long as the assassin keeps a hand free.
- Flawless Disguise could use an alternative for those Assassins who don't want to bother, and/or allow a successful disguise count as being hidden for purposes of those very flavorful guild attacks that require it (as DM I'd allow that anyway, but mechanically it may not count).
Beyond these few nitpicks and some mechanical problems others have seen this one of the most delicious striker builds I've seen to day... I'd love to try it with a Changling in a social/city based campaign.
... it is definetly not a "revamped assassin in Dungeons & Dragons® Essentialsstyle"...
Yes, it is. An "essentials style" revamp often has nothing in common with prior builds from the same class except for utility powers, some feats, and some paragon paths. That IS what an essentials style revamp is. It is a clever way of creating new mechanics for a prior existing class concept, allowing the two classes to coexist, and allowing the new class to leach off some of the older classes abilities in order to highlight their common thematic foundation.
You would hope they'd want as much playtesting as possible and a new campaign would offer a nice opportunity to mass test the build.
Gonna give my old assassin a makeover with this build and see how it plays out.
Assassin Review
First, I'd like to add my opinion to those of others that aside from a few shadowy-type utility powers, there is very little in this class that resembles the original assassin. While I know some folks have problems with the original assassin (especially the shroud mechanic), I liked him a lot, and it seems mostly absent from this build.
I'll apologize in advance for the formatting, as this is a fairly lengthly review, but the way email is, I have no idea how whatever client you're reading this with would interpret what formatting I added, so I just try to keep it simple.
I will now go through the article (roughly) in order and discuss how I feel about the various aspects.
Key Abilities:
No one is going to argue Dex, but aside from the disguise power, I don't see this build using Charisma anywhere. In fact, if I was going Red Scales, I'd want as high a Fortitude and Reflex as I could get, since two of their at-wills work better if you can prevent someone escaping your grab. Thus I'd say Dex and Con (or Str, but Con fits better with old Assassin) are the Key Abilities for Red Scales, and not really any secondary for League of Whispers.
Hit Points and Surges:
Are these just for this build? Or is this a change to base Assassin?
Weapon Proficiencies:
These conflict with what is said specifically when describing Guilds.
Feats:
Obviously I'd like to see some feats specific to the build. Most of the old Assassin feats won't affect this build much.
Defenses and Hit Points:
I know this isn't a change from the old class, but again I appreciate the bonus to Fortitude for resisting grabs.
Attack Finesse:
Melee Training and extra damage all rolled into one. What's not to like. It even scales with tier. The bonus damage is kinda vanilla, but so is Essentials overall; it's a good fit.
Quick Swap:
Love it, especially with the guild weapons idea.
Assassin's Guild:
I like the ideas overall aside from the aforementioned conflict in weapon proficiencies. While Ki Foci largely fixes the enhancement issue, I'd like to see something like the Arena Fighter gets where any feats that affect one of your guild weapons affect all of your guild weapons, otherwise Weapon Focus and Weapon Expertise will be largely worthless.
Assassin's Strike:
I like it overall, but I'd like to see a feat (possibly paragon tier) to use it more than once an encounter, possibly a mechanic like the Avenger's Oath to allow you to regain it when you kill a target or something. I like the max damage vs. helpless. I think the Special text about not allowing recharges is a little overboard. Aside from some of the epic destinies that allow for infinite recharge of encounters, I don't think it'd be that big an issue.
Guild Weapon Attacks: Red Scales:
Garrote Strangle is probably the coolest power I've seen in recent memory. We've had numerous discussions in my group about the realism of infiltrating a place and taking out guards considering that there are very few mechanics in-game that actually silence a target. This is perfect for that. Kukri Lunge is a little awkward. I just don't think of Assassin's as charging much. Unarmed Throw should be vs. Fortitude or Reflex since it doesn't get a proficiency bonus from unarmed. Unseen Spearhead is (like Garrote Strangle) thematically fantastic. I like it's interaction with Assassin's Strike via the helpless condition.
Guild Weapon Attacks: League of Whispers:
All of League of Whispers' attacks seem really useful, but my favorite is probably Precision Dart. I really like the idea of being able to force a failure on a saving throw. I do find the name for Unerring Shuriken to be a bit odd since it doesn't have any bonus to hit and just targets AC. Dashing Shuriken might be a better name.
Guild Weapon Attacks: Overall
Overall my problem with Guild Weapon Attacks is that Red Scales will spend most of it's time using a melee basic attacks once combat starts. Garrote Strangle and Unseen Spearhead are fantastic, but the Executioner has limited ways to "become hidden" in combat, Kukri Lunge requires you to charge, and Unarmed Throw doesn't do damage. Thus once you "pop out" you'll just be using melee basics a lot. Compare it to League of Whispers which gets 3 attacks that deal damage and none have any requirements other than using a specific weapon. It seems like Red Scales has powers that are situationally awesome but virtually worthless in a standard combat. League of Whispers powers are more useful overall with a slightly lower "cool" factor.
Poison Use:
I like the use of poison as a replacement for dailies. I like the flexibility of being able to create multiple doses of the same poison if I want. It has sort of a "Wizard Spellbook" feel, but with a nice Assassin theme. I REALLY like the multiple application methods. Being able to slip it into food or apply it to something a target might use is very creative. I also think they have a nice range of "bursty" damage vs. "consistent" damage. Aside from Garrote Strangle, this is probably my favorite portion of the article. I'm only going to address poison stuff here rather than at the various points where it gets better.
Level 2: Utility Power:
I like all the powers, but I almost wish that you could choose one each morning, kind of like the poisons. Each one seems useful for a specific situation, but not useful for much else. That said, that's kinda how utility powers work. Also, am I to assume that I can ONLY pick from these powers? Or can I pick any level 2 Assassin Utility power?
Death Attack:
Cool thematically, but I'd have to play with it some to see how often it actually does anything.
Nimble Drop:
I like it. Nice, simple, effective.
Level 6: Utility Power:
I feel basically the same as about the level 2's, but it's worth noting that if you go Red Scales, you'd be a fool to pick anything but Vanish given that it is one of the powers that allows you to "become hidden" in combat.
Flawless Disguise:
Situationally useful, but I'd like to see another option here. Something like the utility powers where you offer 2-3 situationally useful choices.
Level 10: Utility Power:
All cool powers. All very thematic.
Paragon Executioner:
As others have noted in the forums: I don't know if it's part of the new Essentials format or what, but I'd really like to see the benefits of the Guild Executioner Paragon Path separated out from the Paragon benefits of the build. While you do have the bold text, it's still a little confusing if you plan to take a different paragon path.
Level 11: Executioner's Action:
The wording seems a bit awkward, but I really like the ability, especially the fact that it works on all damage dice associated with the attack.
Level 13: Shadow Coffin:
I've seen some negative feedback on the forums about this power, but I really like it. It could be used effectively either as a means to prove you got your target, or simply to easily "stash" a body during an infiltration. Very unique.
Level 16: Vital Strike:
It's kind of weak for a level 16 Paragon Path feature, but not terrible.
Level 16: Untraceable Step:
Now we see method number 2 provided to "become hidden" once combat begins. This, Vanish, and using Bluff to create a distraction are about all the Executioner gets though. Even though it would only be daily, perhaps one of the poisons could inflict blinded (save ends) to provide more options.
Level 22: Ignore Barriers:
Pretty cool. I can see using it for infiltration into complexes by walking through walls and stuff. Nice fit.
Overall:
I love the class as an infiltrator. As a thematic Assassin that skulks into buildings and eliminates targets, it's fantastic. As a standard character in a party with other standard characters….I feel it might be a bit "boring" in combat. To clarify, when I say "in combat", I mean after you've "popped out" of stealth and delivered whatever your opening strike is, and now everyone knows you're there. For reasons mentioned above, I think that especially the Red Scales Executioner will end up mostly using melee basics once combat starts. I realize that's how a good number of the Essentials classes might play, but given how "whiz-bang" the original Assassin was (at-will teleport, Shade Form, really shadowy encounter powers and dailies) just makes this one seems really bland IN COMBAT. Again, I emphasize "in combat", because, I think it's fantastic as an infiltrator. IN COMBAT, you're only real decisions are when to use your poisons, and when to use Assassin's Strike.
I can easily see a system where players could use the base Assassin Class in combat and use an Executioner for stealth/infiltration missions, but I'm not sure if I'd enjoy playing an Executioner all the time.
This assassin does not need a name change. Part of what essentials does is create new class builds that vary dramatically from the parent class. See the slayer. It is a fighter that is not a defender, has no mark mechanic, and has striker style class features. See the knight, it is a fighter that gets full plate armor from the outset. The fact that this assassin build varies drastically from the original assassin is fine. And the way this class is designed, the name "assassin" is 100% the best fit. Hell, the name assassin fits this class better than it did the original 4e assassin class!
And the original assassin build has not disappeared. This build does not replace it. It is, for all intents and purposes, a new class. It is just a new class that can share feats and (some) paragon paths with the old assassin. The old assassin is not a waste of digital space. Anyone who wants to play a more "shadowdancer" style assassin, complete with shade form and shadow step, will opt for the older assassin. Someone who wants to opt for a more "dagger and poison" style assassin, with just a few utility hexes to help them get to their target, will opt for this build of the assassin.
Which, by the way, is why I am totally ok with this assassin not getting shadow step or shade form. I like the fact that both the old assassin and the new assassin have their own shtick. I like the fact that the new assassin does not get shadow step and shade form. It keeps the old assassin competitive. This assassin has better damage output, that assassin has better utility, both have a place in the game.
This. I started feeling uneasy reading about Essentials, and then after seeing this preview, I still don't understand what all the fuss is about. It's just a new build with new options, for two different kinds of characters who both fall into the "Assassin" category. I like the fact that we have a more martial character and the dark, brooding shadow character. It allows more roleplaying, more character development, and different options to a great game.
Eeeks. The class seems to have too few at-will powers as well, or else it should allow you to take any of the 8 at-wills and not only at-wills from your guild type. Otherwise, all 4 of the at-wills that you will gain between levels 1-30 are prechosen for you. That is lame...
Eh, this doesn't bother me that much. I'm kind of a completionist, so I kinda like the idea of knowing "all" of them. I still get to pick the order.
One other thing I really don't like, the shield is really anti-thematic. It felt weird on the old build, and it feels weird on this one. Can you guys not just give the build free proficiency in the parrying dagger or something like that? Mathematically, it is about the same. Thematically, it is a lot more appropriate.
So will this playtest be legal for D&D Encounters, given the next session is D&DE centric and this is an essentials build?
You would hope they'd want as much playtesting as possible and a new campaign would offer a nice opportunity to mass test the build.
Probably not - as far as I know playtests are never legal for WotC sponsored events.
Sorry if this is a dumb question, been away from D&D 4e for a bit. Does the Attack Finesse add Dex to "to hit" and Damage?
Gonna give my old assassin a makeover with this build and see how it plays out.
Basically. What it does is let you use Dex instead of Strength for your basic attacks. Plus of course the striker bonus damage. So instead of adding your Str mod, you add your Dex mod for attack and damage rolls.
1) From level 1 to level 17, you end up gaining 4 at-will attacks. Each guild only HAS 4 at-will attacks, so your choices are irrelevant. Sooner or later, you will have every attack! Moreover, the one that's left to get at level 17 is the one you kept NOT picking, in other words the one you are LEAST INTERESTED IN. Congratulations, you reached level 17! Your reward: the power you haven't wanted for the last 16 levels! Hooray! The same goes for the poisons. Sure, you don't end up with ALL the poisons, and some new choices do become available at later levels, but in the end you are choosing nine out of twelve total poisons to have. That doesn't leave a lot of room for one Assassin to be different from another. If you look at any two Assassins, their final poison repertoires will be at least two-thirds the same.
2) Those 4 at-will attacks each use weapons from a different group, so if you though Weapon Expertise was a feat tax before get ready for four times the fun when you need Weapon Expertise (Light Blade), Weapon Expertise (Blowgun), Weapon Expertise (Crossbow), AND Weapon Expertise (Bola)! Well, I guess light blades are also implements so you could get them on a twofer with Versatile Expertise. But even so, that's still three feats to fix math errors. People have been complaining about ONE! And being a weapon-based striker class, you can bet players will want Weapon Focus on all the attacks as well. I guess that's why you have to wait until level 17 to get the last weapon attack, so you have enough time to buy up all these feats!
3) The Unarmed Throw power is against AC, but the Assassin doesn't get a proficiency bonus to unarmed attacks, so it's going to be pretty hard to get it to hit. I guess you could use a spiked gauntlet, but what thematic sense does it make to say that spiked gauntlets make it easier to throw people?
4) The article claims Charisma is the build's secondary stat, but nothing uses anything but Dexterity. There's really no reason to NOT buy 18 Dex at the start, because it's not like you'll really use anything else. Sure, there's NADs to consider, but there's no real reason you'd need Charisma over Wisdom, and of all the other stats you'd probably get more mileage out of the additional hit points and surges you'd get by investing in Constitution.
5) The poisons that apply to weapons or ammunition are a real kick in the pants for the guild that uses all ranged weapons. It's not so bad if you apply it to a shuriken or a bola as long as it has at least a +1 enhancement, but you might not bother with those as you're probably getting your enhancements from a ki focus, especially at the earlier levels. But if you're using blowguns and hand crossbows, have fun chasing down that one piece of poisoned ammunition, if your DM even lets you reclaim spent ammo (I don't believe RAW explicitly supports it). The only ones that AREN'T a pain in that situation are the ones that only affect the next guy you hit after applying the poison, and then only if you hit on your first shot. And since you have to keep picking poisons from that same damn list over and over, you will end up with at least five such poisons in your repertoire.
Speaking of bolas with a +1 enhancement, how does a magic bola that returns to the thrower after use continue to immobilize the target of bolas takedown until the end of your next turn?
Overall my main problem with the class is that there's so little room for variation. The only things available to an Executioner Assassin that you DON'T get in a single build are the 4 at-wills from the other guild, the 6 utility powers you don't choose, and the 3 poisons you don't choose. That's a REALLY small amount. Prior to Essentials, there were always far more options that you DIDN'T get in any given character than options that you did get. With this build, Assassins are all going to be largely the same, especially within the same guild.
EDIT: 6) The "Crippling Poisons" sidebar suggests that the scarring effects some poisons might affect the victim's Charisma. I thought we all understood by now that Charisma represented force of personality and not physical attractiveness. Why would a scar affect your force of personality? And I have to say, do the non-rules-based secondary effects of some of the poisons, like being "driven permanently insane" or "permanently and visibly scarred" remind anyone of the April Fool's Witchalok class, who could cause targets to become "totally blown away" or "sad (save ends)"?
I will use this post to argue with the previous poster hehe...
And here I go: @OcelotX, you are only stating either typos (Cha being secondary, unarmed proficiency), things related to the fact this is only playtest and early (having only 4 at-wills and having them all: of course we're going to get more with time), things you don't know how they will interact with Essential feats (weapons being from more groups: there's going to be a feat for "weapon masters", it has been previewed somewhere), and trivial things (poisoned projectiles).
You'll get all the variation you want once this actually is released, and even more after that.
This build is awful. Let me count the ways.
1) From level 1 to level 17, you end up gaining 4 at-will attacks. Each guild only HAS 4 at-will attacks, so your choices are irrelevant. Sooner or later, you will have every attack! Moreover, the one that's left to get at level 17 is the one you kept NOT picking, in other words the one you are LEAST INTERESTED IN. Congratulations, you reached level 17! Your reward: the power you haven't wanted for the last 16 levels! Hooray! The same goes for the poisons. Sure, you don't end up with ALL the poisons, and some new choices do become available at later levels, but in the end you are choosing nine out of twelve total poisons to have. That doesn't leave a lot of room for one Assassin to be different from another. If you look at any two Assassins, their final poison repertoires will be at least two-thirds the same.
This is a valid concern.
2) Those 4 at-will attacks each use weapons from a different group, so if you though Weapon Expertise was a feat tax before get ready for four times the fun when you need Weapon Expertise (Light Blade), Weapon Expertise (Blowgun), Weapon Expertise (Crossbow), AND Weapon Expertise (Bola)! Well, I guess light blades are also implements so you could get them on a twofer with Versatile Expertise. But even so, that's still three feats to fix math errors. People have been complaining about ONE! And being a weapon-based striker class, you can bet players will want Weapon Focus on all the attacks as well. I guess that's why you have to wait until level 17 to get the last weapon attack, so you have enough time to buy up all these feats!
This is a non issue. Via ki focus, the assassin only needs one set of feats to become good at all of those weapons. Any feat taken in ki focus will apply to all of those weapons.
3) The Unarmed Throw power is against AC, but the Assassin doesn't get a proficiency bonus to unarmed attacks, so it's going to be pretty hard to get it to hit. I guess you could use a spiked gauntlet, but what thematic sense does it make to say that spiked gauntlets make it easier to throw people?
This does indeed need to be looked at.
4) The article claims Charisma is the build's secondary stat, but nothing uses anything but Dexterity. There's really no reason to NOT buy 18 Dex at the start, because it's not like you'll really use anything else. Sure, there's NADs to consider, but there's no real reason you'd need Charisma over Wisdom, and of all the other stats you'd probably get more mileage out of the additional hit points and surges you'd get by investing in Constitution.
This is a non issue.
5) The poisons that apply to weapons or ammunition are a real kick in the pants for the guild that uses all ranged weapons. It's not so bad if you apply it to a shuriken or a bola as long as it has at least a +1 enhancement, but you might not bother with those as you're probably getting your enhancements from a ki focus, especially at the earlier levels. But if you're using blowguns and hand crossbows, have fun chasing down that one piece of poisoned ammunition, if your DM even lets you reclaim spent ammo (I don't believe RAW explicitly supports it). The only ones that AREN'T a pain in that situation are the ones that only affect the next guy you hit after applying the poison, and then only if you hit on your first shot. And since you have to keep picking poisons from that same damn list over and over, you will end up with at least five such poisons in your repertoire.
This does indeed need to be fixed.
Speaking of bolas with a +1 enhancement, how does a magic bola that returns to the thrower after use continue to immobilize the target of bolas takedown until the end of your next turn?
This is a non issue.
Overall my main problem with the class is that there's so little room for variation. The only things available to an Executioner Assassin that you DON'T get in a single build are the 4 at-wills from the other guild, the 6 utility powers you don't choose, and the 3 poisons you don't choose. That's a REALLY small amount. Prior to Essentials, there were always far more options that you DIDN'T get in any given character than options that you did get. With this build, Assassins are all going to be largely the same, especially within the same guild.
This is my problem with the build as well.
EDIT: 6) The "Crippling Poisons" sidebar suggests that the scarring effects some poisons might affect the victim's Charisma. I thought we all understood by now that Charisma represented force of personality and not physical attractiveness. Why would a scar affect your force of personality? And I have to say, do the non-rules-based secondary effects of some of the poisons, like being "driven permanently insane" or "permanently and visibly scarred" remind anyone of the April Fool's Witchalok class, who could cause targets to become "totally blown away" or "[want] to hang out sometime maybe, if you aren't too busy"?
And this is another non issue.
This is a non issue. Via ki focus, the assassin only needs one set of feats to become good at all of those weapons. Any feat taken in ki focus will apply to all of those weapons.
You're right that Versatile Expertise (Ki Focus) works (Implement Expertise does not), but the point still stands for Weapon Focus, since there's no such thing as Weapon Focus (Ki Focus). And since there's no such thing as a non-magic ki focus, you still can't get Expertise with both of your attacks at level 1 unless you're a Human and blow both your feats on it. Well, you could if you chose shurikens/kukris for one of your starting two weapons and got Versatile Expertise (Light Blade) for your implement, but what if you wanted to start blowguns and crossbows or something? It's needlessly limiting.
I think the class could stand to have a clause that any feat bonuses that apply to attack and damage with one of the guild's four weapons apply to all of them, like the Arena Fighter in Dark Sun had.
One thing I am curious about is the damage for the blowgun attack only includes the dex. modifier, is that correct?
This build is awful. Let me count the ways.
1) From level 1 to level 17, you end up gaining 4 at-will attacks. Each guild only HAS 4 at-will attacks, so your choices are irrelevant. Sooner or later, you will have every attack! Moreover, the one that's left to get at level 17 is the one you kept NOT picking, in other words the one you are LEAST INTERESTED IN. Congratulations, you reached level 17! Your reward: the power you haven't wanted for the last 16 levels! Hooray! The same goes for the poisons. Sure, you don't end up with ALL the poisons, and some new choices do become available at later levels, but in the end you are choosing nine out of twelve total poisons to have. That doesn't leave a lot of room for one Assassin to be different from another. If you look at any two Assassins, their final poison repertoires will be at least two-thirds the same.
This is a valid concern.
This is indeed a valid concern, but one where I'm going to spot WotC some benefit of the doubt. All playtests get slim numers of powers and little if any feat support. It was the same for Barbarians and Monks, and sure enough they wound up with enough powers in the end. Now this is a somewhat different case in that instead of remembering to make 4-5 Daily powers per level, they would be lumped into 12-15 poisons per tier. It kinda seems like a "car keys" case, there's no reason to forget them when you leave the house, but sometimes you just do.
Wow. This is my kind of assassin. I like the fact that the shadow magic is not over used. The use of poisons is interesting and I love the guild weapons. The first thing that popped into my mind was ninja! I am really excited about essentials if this is a precursor of what is to come.
One thing I am curious about is the damage for the blowgun attack only includes the dex. modifier, is that correct?
Yes, since it gets a huge attack bonus.
This is a non issue. Via ki focus, the assassin only needs one set of feats to become good at all of those weapons. Any feat taken in ki focus will apply to all of those weapons.
You're right that Versatile Expertise (Ki Focus) works (Implement Expertise does not), but the point still stands for Weapon Focus, since there's no such thing as Weapon Focus (Ki Focus). And since there's no such thing as a non-magic ki focus, you still can't get Expertise with both of your attacks at level 1 unless you're a Human and blow both your feats on it. Well, you could if you chose shurikens/kukris for one of your starting two weapons and got Versatile Expertise (Light Blade) for your implement, but what if you wanted to start blowguns and crossbows or something? It's needlessly limiting.
I think the class could stand to have a clause that any feat bonuses that apply to attack and damage with one of the guild's four weapons apply to all of them, like the Arena Fighter in Dark Sun had.
Last I checked, the character builder does let you take weapon related feats with ki focus. It is my understanding that the designers want players to be able to treat ki focus as a "weapon," but the bonuses apply to any weapon you use while you choose to use your "ki focus" energy, or however it is explained. I believe that is what they are explicitly trying to say when they make statements such as:
Assassins focus their shadow energy through a ki focus, which is not an object they wield but a reservoir of magical power within themselves. When using a ki focus, an assassin taps into the power of shadow magic and channels it into both implement and weapon attacks.
Indeed, because a ki focus is a "magical reservoir of ower within themselves," an assassin should be considered to always have a ki focus on themselves. An assassin just needs to find a magical manual or item, a focus item if you will, in order to gain the benefits of an "enhanced" (or "magic" as in "magic item in terms of benefits gained") ki focus.
So, I am pretty sure you are wrong on this. I could, however, be mistaken.
One other thing I really don't like, the shield is really anti-thematic. It felt weird on the old build, and it feels weird on this one. Can you guys not just give the build free proficiency in the parrying dagger or something like that? Mathematically, it is about the same. Thematically, it is a lot more appropriate.
I just wanted to quote this. Designers, please take notice! Your fans DO NOT WANT ASSASSINS WITH SHIELDS! It is lame. Find some other way to grant assassins that defensive bonus.
Speaking of bolas with a +1 enhancement, how does a magic bola that returns to the thrower after use continue to immobilize the target of bolas takedown until the end of your next turn?
Meh, my +1 Bolas is called "Web-Shooter" since Executioner (Which is the name of the class, it just happens to qualify for Assassin Feats) can so very closely mimic the Spider-Man Noir from Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions
The non-combat use of poisons is crap. It's bringing back save or die but without the save. The first time they are used against the PCs the game will become unfun. If I'm going to die I want it to be during some epic battle, not because I ate a bowl of soup. Likewise, if I'm going to kill someone or something I want it to be during epic battle... not because they ate breakfast.
This is a non issue. Via ki focus, the assassin only needs one set of feats to become good at all of those weapons. Any feat taken in ki focus will apply to all of those weapons.
You're right that Versatile Expertise (Ki Focus) works (Implement Expertise does not), but the point still stands for Weapon Focus, since there's no such thing as Weapon Focus (Ki Focus). And since there's no such thing as a non-magic ki focus, you still can't get Expertise with both of your attacks at level 1 unless you're a Human and blow both your feats on it. Well, you could if you chose shurikens/kukris for one of your starting two weapons and got Versatile Expertise (Light Blade) for your implement, but what if you wanted to start blowguns and crossbows or something? It's needlessly limiting.
I think the class could stand to have a clause that any feat bonuses that apply to attack and damage with one of the guild's four weapons apply to all of them, like the Arena Fighter in Dark Sun had.
Last I checked, the character builder does let you take weapon related feats with ki focus. It is my understanding that the designers want players to be able to treat ki focus as a "weapon," but the bonuses apply to any weapon you use while you choose to use your "ki focus" energy, or however it is explained. I believe that is what they are explicitly trying to say when they make statements such as:Assassins focus their shadow energy through a ki focus, which is not an object they wield but a reservoir of magical power within themselves. When using a ki focus, an assassin taps into the power of shadow magic and channels it into both implement and weapon attacks.
Indeed, because a ki focus is a "magical reservoir of ower within themselves," an assassin should be considered to always have a ki focus on themselves. An assassin just needs to find a magical manual or item, a focus item if you will, in order to gain the benefits of an "enhanced" (or "magic" as in "magic item in terms of benefits gained") ki focus.
So, I am pretty sure you are wrong on this. I could, however, be mistaken.
img.imgcake.com/weaponfocuspngen.png
If Weapon Focus (Ki Focus) existed, it should be right there between Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade) and Weapon Focus (Light Blade). You can use the enhancement bonus of a ki focus on a weapon attack, but the ki focus itself remains an implement and as such is only selectable on implement-related feats.
This build is awful. Let me count the ways.
1) From level 1 to level 17, you end up gaining 4 at-will attacks. Each guild only HAS 4 at-will attacks, so your choices are irrelevant. Sooner or later, you will have every attack! Moreover, the one that's left to get at level 17 is the one you kept NOT picking, in other words the one you are LEAST INTERESTED IN. Congratulations, you reached level 17! Your reward: the power you haven't wanted for the last 16 levels! Hooray! The same goes for the poisons. Sure, you don't end up with ALL the poisons, and some new choices do become available at later levels, but in the end you are choosing nine out of twelve total poisons to have. That doesn't leave a lot of room for one Assassin to be different from another. If you look at any two Assassins, their final poison repertoires will be at least two-thirds the same.
This is a valid concern.
This is indeed a valid concern, but one where I'm going to spot WotC some benefit of the doubt. All playtests get slim numers of powers and little if any feat support. It was the same for Barbarians and Monks, and sure enough they wound up with enough powers in the end. Now this is a somewhat different case in that instead of remembering to make 4-5 Daily powers per level, they would be lumped into 12-15 poisons per tier. It kinda seems like a "car keys" case, there's no reason to forget them when you leave the house, but sometimes you just do.
Adding more powers to the list of selectable options would help make one Assassin different from the next. But if you're still selecting from the same list of options, you still have the problem that you choose the one you liked best the first time, and at later levels you get the second- or third-best option. I don't like the idea that your later level rewards are things that you're less excited about.
The non-combat use of poisons is crap. It's bringing back save or die but without the save. The first time they are used against the PCs the game will become unfun. If I'm going to die I want it to be during some epic battle, not because I ate a bowl of soup. Likewise, if I'm going to kill someone or something I want it to be during epic battle... not because they ate breakfast.
Um, it is for a PC to use against NPCS, not for NPCS to use against PCS. This is not 3e. Monsters and PCs don't use the same rules. This is a PC class.
img.imgcake.com/weaponfocuspngen.png
If Weapon Focus (Ki Focus) existed, it should be right there between Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade) and Weapon Focus (Light Blade). You can use the enhancement bonus of a ki focus on a weapon attack, but the ki focus itself remains an implement and as such is only selectable on implement-related feats.
Fair enough.
Adding more powers to the list of selectable options would help make one Assassin different from the next. But if you're still selecting from the same list of options, you still have the problem that you choose the one you liked best the first time, and at later levels you get the second- or third-best option. I don't like the idea that your later level rewards are things that you're less excited about.
This I disagree with. If the list of options were bigger I think it would be fine. There are lots of very cool at-wills. Personally, I would really look forward to getting more and more at wills, because it would leave me with more and more options, and all of them look pretty much equally cool. I just don't want to be forced to have the exact same 4 picks every time I choose to play an assassin.
Um, it is for a PC to use against NPCS, not for NPCS to use against PCS. This is not 3e. Monsters and PCs don't use the same rules. This is a PC class.
It's starting a bad trend. Plus combat should be where things die. I don't want the assassin in the group killing off the main bad guy through poisoning food while the rest of the group watches. That's plaing boring.
Um, it is for a PC to use against NPCS, not for NPCS to use against PCS. This is not 3e. Monsters and PCs don't use the same rules. This is a PC class.
It's starting a bad trend. Plus combat should be where things die. I don't want the assassin in the group killing off the main bad guy through poisoning food while the rest of the group watches. That's plaing boring.
Well, I disagree. One of the things I really don't like about 4e is how combat focused it is. It is nice to see the essentials products start giving more non-combat narrative resolution mechanics. I think it would be very fun to sometimes avoid trying to jump right into combat, and instead do something like try and figure out how they can poison their enemies food in order to make the combat that happens (if combat even needs to happen afterwords) that much easier. I LOVE the secondary/utility effects of the poisons. And I don't think it sets a bad trend at all. I think it sets a very, very, good trend.
One of the things I really don't like about 4e is how combat focused it is. It is nice to see the essentials products start giving more non-combat narrative resolution mechanics. I think it would be very fun to sometimes avoid trying to jump right into combat, and instead do something like try and figure out how they can poison their enemies food in order to make the combat that happens (if combat even needs to happen afterwords) that much easier.
That's crazy talk. The mechanics are for combat. Narrative resolutions are supposed to happen in the story and quests, not through mechanics. You don't want an adventure derailed because the assassin decides to run off and poison things unless the adventure itself is about that.
One of the things I really don't like about 4e is how combat focused it is. It is nice to see the essentials products start giving more non-combat narrative resolution mechanics. I think it would be very fun to sometimes avoid trying to jump right into combat, and instead do something like try and figure out how they can poison their enemies food in order to make the combat that happens (if combat even needs to happen afterwords) that much easier.
That's crazy talk. The mechanics are for combat. Narrative resolutions are supposed to happen in the story and quests, not through mechanics. You don't want an adventure derailed because the assassin decides to run off and poison things unless the adventure itself is about that.
We will have to agree to disagree. If this is the direction essentials is taking the game, I love it! Being able to sneak into the guard house, poison their food, and time a groups attack as the poison takes effect, sounds very flavorful and fun! And I don't think such events should be relegated to moments that can only happen if they are preplanned into the quest. I LOVE the utility effects of the poisons. I think they are a great edition to 4e...
Now, this isn't coming from somebody who has an innate dislike of Essentials. I expected to actually like what it added.
But this, it's just ridiculous. The amount of hand holding is unreal, it makes reading through the class very difficult. I cannot get a very good grasp on the build as a whole because of the design, it's just hard to want to keep reading through it.
Just on the whole I think it's terrible design. I expected better to be honest. I really can't see myself using an Essentials class if they all look like this.
Regarding the class itself though, well I'm not a fan of the dual power-source. Also, their encounter power who's name I cannot recall at the moment, it seems rather over-powered and needs nerfing, at least at first glance. You know, the one that's a free action and is essentially this builds version of backstab?
Um, it is for a PC to use against NPCS, not for NPCS to use against PCS. This is not 3e. Monsters and PCs don't use the same rules. This is a PC class.
It's starting a bad trend. Plus combat should be where things die. I don't want the assassin in the group killing off the main bad guy through poisoning food while the rest of the group watches. That's plaing boring.
Well, I disagree. One of the things I really don't like about 4e is how combat focused it is. It is nice to see the essentials products start giving more non-combat narrative resolution mechanics. I think it would be very fun to sometimes avoid trying to jump right into combat, and instead do something like try and figure out how they can poison their enemies food in order to make the combat that happens (if combat even needs to happen afterwords) that much easier. I LOVE the secondary/utility effects of the poisons. And I don't think it sets a bad trend at all. I think it sets a very, very, good trend.
+1 Can't agree more with you CB. I noticed that too i must say i like this new direction. And if there somewhere where a mechanic can subsist outside of combat, it really with poisons.
I wish to see more curse as well. And more diseases.
Ok, this was my first real look at an essentials build, I have to say that I rather hate the design.
Now, this isn't coming from somebody who has an innate dislike of Essentials. I expected to actually like what it added.
But this, it's just ridiculous. The amount of hand holding is unreal, it makes reading through the class very difficult. I cannot get a very good grasp on the build as a whole because of the design, it's just hard to want to keep reading through it.
Just on the whole I think it's terrible design. I expected better to be honest. I really can't see myself using an Essentials class if they all look like this.
Regarding the class itself though, well I'm not a fan of the dual power-source. Also, their encounter power who's name I cannot recall at the moment, it seems rather over-powered and needs nerfing, at least at first glance. You know, the one that's a free action and is essentially this builds version of backstab?
The assassin's "backstab" power is fine. The assassin only gets one use of that encounter, and gets no other encounter powers to speak of. Basically, the assassin gets one huge nova damage spike. Backstab does less damage with a single hit, but you end up getting to use it 3 or 4 times (depending on whether you take the thief paragon path or not) during an encounter instead of just once.
community.wizards.com/the_jester/blog/20...
Something that I didn't mention enough is the accuracy of unarmed throw which uses the weapon keyword, meaning it's not a ki focus attack. However, unarmed attacks have no proficiency bonus so attacking AC makes it inaccurate. It should use ki focus or attack Reflex (or both).
+1 Can't agree more with you CB. I noticed that too i must say i like this new direction. And if there somewhere where a mechanic can subsist outside of combat, it really with poisons.
I wish to see more curse as well. And more diseases.
The thing with diseases and to a lesser extent curses is they happen over a period of time and you can use skill checks to recover. Poisoned food happens instantly and there's nothing you can do about it. What are you supposed to do? Be fearful of eating your rations? It's increadibly lame. Any plot to kill someone with poison should be through a quest and not through some at will game mechanic.
+1 Can't agree more with you CB. I noticed that too i must say i like this new direction. And if there somewhere where a mechanic can subsist outside of combat, it really with poisons.
I wish to see more curse as well. And more diseases.
The thing with diseases and to a lesser extent curses is they happen over a period of time and you can use skill checks to recover. Poisoned food happens instantly and there's nothing you can do about it. What are you supposed to do? Be fearful of eating your rations? It's increadibly lame. Any plot to kill someone with poison should be through a quest and not through some at will game mechanic.
Its a per day game mechanic. And we disagree with you. You will have to learn to live with the fact that we do not share your opinion. We think the utility aspect of the poisons enhances the game.
1. Poisons. Currently, you have to spend a minor action to draw and another minor to apply to a weapon. This raises the problem of having to spend 2 minor actions preparing a weapon before attacking with the poison effect.
Suggested changes: A. Allow Quick Swap to work with poisons as well as weapons. B. Replace all "until the end of the encounter" durations with a duration of "until your next short rest", allowing the poison to be applied prior to the start of combat. C. Both A and B.
2. Twin Strike shenanigans. Currently a Half-Elf or Revenant (Half-Elf Soul) can pick up Twin Strike via Dilettante, and apply both Attack Finesse and Assassin's Strike to it, along with Venom Hand Assassin, any poison that adds damage, and a slew of other effects that have been used to break Twin Strike. Combined with Unseen Spearhead, you can Coup de Grace with your Twin Strike, maximizing all damage dice except for High Crit and magic weapon critical dice.
Suggested change: Have Attack Finesse's extra damage and Assassin's Strike apply only to basic attacks and Assassin attack powers.
3. Vorpal Falchion + Executioner's Action. Executioner's Action states "When you spend an action point to make an attack and you roll a 1, 2, or 3 on any damage dice associated with that attack (including extra damage from assassin’s strike or critical hit dice), treat those dice as though they showed a result of 4."
Vorpal property states "Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage die for this weapon, roll that die again and add the additional result to the damage total. If a reroll results in another maximum damage result, roll it again and keep adding."
So, by wielding a Vorpal falchion or other 2d4 heavy blade/axe, you automatically roll 4 on all weapon dice when you spend an action point, resulting in INFINITE DAMAGE.
Suggested changes: Re-word Executioner's Action to "When you spend an action point to make an attack and you roll a 1, 2, or 3 on any damage dice associated with that attack (including extra damage from assassin’s strike or critical hit dice), ignore the result of those dice and add 4 to your damage for each such ignored die."
Wyvern's Venom: The level 20 Executioner feature Poisoner's Secrets states that you learn the "wyvern's poison" recipe, while the actual poison is called "wyvern's venom".
Suggested changes: Change the Poisoner's Secrets entry to state the proper name.
However, I don't like his proposed change to fix the twin strike shenanigans. I think a better change is to state that the extra damage dice from weapon finesse can only be added to one attack per turn. Otherwise, this class is going to get really screwed on the paragon path attack power front...
+1 Can't agree more with you CB. I noticed that too i must say i like this new direction. And if there somewhere where a mechanic can subsist outside of combat, it really with poisons.
I wish to see more curse as well. And more diseases.
The thing with diseases and to a lesser extent curses is they happen over a period of time and you can use skill checks to recover. Poisoned food happens instantly and there's nothing you can do about it. What are you supposed to do? Be fearful of eating your rations? It's increadibly lame. Any plot to kill someone with poison should be through a quest and not through some at will game mechanic.
Its a per day game mechanic. And we disagree with you. You will have to learn to live with the fact that we do not share your opinion. We think the utility aspect of the poisons enhances the game.
The purpose of the playtest is voting based on our opinions, tempered by our knowledge of existing D&D mechanics. After all, more of playtesting is examining mechanics, since it's much easier to change the flavor of a class than its mechanics.
I'm against the "eat/drink something, take huge penalties without resistance" aspect of the new poisons. Giving PCs that sort of options encourages DMs to find those sorts of abilities acceptable to use against PCs. In fact, that's explicitly noted under the Crippling Poisons sidebar.
On the other hand, if those poisons made attacks against Fortitude or some other non-AC defense like every other sort of consumable, then I'd find them more acceptable, even if the duration and power of the effects might need tweaking.
On a higher level, I'm disappointed that the new assassin only has a cursory relationship to the old one, even more than what was seen with the other Essential builds of existing classes. While the new version of assassin doesn't replace the old one, the near-lack of any common class features means that most new assassin feats are either going to have to rely heavily on the common thematics (e.g. Minion of the Dark) or will only benefit the old assassin class features (assassin's shroud, shade form, shadow step) or the new ones (assassin's strike, poison use... well, the list goes on throughout the levels).
As far as I can tell, there's no reason for three separate listings for Death Attack or Attack Finesse. It could be done just as easily by putting in the sort of notes we see with Nimble Drop. It feels like the purpose of doing it this way is to make the table look more full. The same goes for listing ability score increases. You don't list feats being gained in the benefits column; why list other things which are universal to all classes, even Essentials classes?
The poison manufacturing doesn't work for me on a thematic level. These poisons all have exotic ingredients listed, but the assassin can somehow create the poisons with a simple piece of equipment (which may or may not be consumable). It also suggests that a thorough search can't figure out whether the assassin is carrying a poisoner's kit. Are non-assassins too stupid to identify a piece of equipment when they see it?
I'll give more specific comments as I have time to read over the article more and think about how it interacts with the rest of the system.
Ok, this was my first real look at an essentials build, I have to say that I rather hate the design.
Now, this isn't coming from somebody who has an innate dislike of Essentials. I expected to actually like what it added.
But this, it's just ridiculous. The amount of hand holding is unreal, it makes reading through the class very difficult. I cannot get a very good grasp on the build as a whole because of the design, it's just hard to want to keep reading through it.
Just on the whole I think it's terrible design. I expected better to be honest. I really can't see myself using an Essentials class if they all look like this.
if the crunch were clearly distinguished from the fluff--perhaps via use of differing colors/fonts--then those players who choose to skip over the fluff, whether because of rereading, veteran gaming, personal preference, etc., could get to what they are looking for more quickly and easily.
The non-combat use of poisons is crap. It's bringing back save or die but without the save. The first time they are used against the PCs the game will become unfun. If I'm going to die I want it to be during some epic battle, not because I ate a bowl of soup. Likewise, if I'm going to kill someone or something I want it to be during epic battle... not because they ate breakfast.
Um, it is for a PC to use against NPCS, not for NPCS to use against PCS. This is not 3e. Monsters and PCs don't use the same rules. This is a PC class.
I can think of lots of uses for that sort of thing...
infact I will bore you with an old character story...
I was playing a ninja in 3.5, and half the party was hidden, the other half captured, and to be excuted in the morning... my idea, take a half dozen bits of black lotus extract and mix it with the guards morning coffee... now on a 1 per one does that is deady, mixed in over 60 people just made them all alittle sick... giveing the 3 PCs able to do the rescue (The Gm ruled every guard was down 5hp, and had a -2 to all con based checks and skills including fort saves)
so yes having poison as more then combat power CAN be a good thing...
The assassin really needs a dagger based at-will power... it is the only assassin themed weapon not to get one.
I think they need a few more at wills, and a reason to not spam MBAs...
I do love the use of poisons and their non-combat uses because I sure as hell would rather drug someone than fight them if possible.
The Red Scales include unarmed attacks as a proficency so their throw isn't missing a prof bonus.
If I recall correctly, it is possible to swap class features so if someone wants shadowstep it's possible to get it back though I will state this is off the top of my head so don't hold me to it.
The assassin really needs a dagger based at-will power... it is the only assassin themed weapon not to get one.
Yeah definitly. A Power using a knife (poignard) to commit assassination is a must ! (SORRY FOR THE MESS)
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If I recall correctly, it is possible to swap class features so if someone wants shadowstep it's possible to get it back though I will state this is off the top of my head so don't hold me to it.
In cases like MP and MP2 builds this is true, but in those cases they explicitly state which class features get swapped. I'd be open to such a delineation. Shrouds in exchange for Attack Finesse, for instance (although I'm not sure that's entirely a balanced trade.) If that's the case, Guild Executioner PP would have to change its prerequisites to Assassin's Strike power.
Unarmed Throw should maybe include a Slide the target to any square adjacent square then Push 1 square instead of just Push 1. Maybe add that if the target is thrown into a solid object such as a Wall, another enemy or a table the target takes 1, 2 or 3 points of damage or something cool like that. I'd maybe also allow it to be used as a Basic Melee when making Opportunity Attacks.
I like the idea of combining some of the special weapons with different weapons as I personally think the imagry I get grom Unseen Spear is kind of dumb. I mean, I get this image of sneaking up on a guy and putting them into a full nelson with a spear or javalin (why not a quarterstaff?). It might be cooler if you could use the power to pull a bad guy back into the shadows as part of the attack. Allowing the use of a short list of weapons with specific attacks would be nice (Garrot Strangle could include the spear/javalin as well as a dagger as you slice the guys throat as he struggles, Unseen Spearhead same weapon set, Kukri Lunge could be Daggers, Kurku, and maybe Rapier, Bolo Takedown maybe could be used with a Spear or Javalin as well but does Dex damage instead of immobilizing, Close Quarters Shot maybe could be any crossbow not just Hand Crossbows or any Crossbow or Bow, Uneering Shuriken would be nice to shift 2 before the attack or move your speed after, that way they can retrain combat advantage if they were hidden before the attack. Maybe also include that if they move their speed after the attack, they do not suffer the -5 penalty for moving more than 2)
I like the Assassin's strike but not the bonus damage to all attacks. I think their would be a better way to do this. The soul of an assassin is the single devistating strike and/or the very exotic weapon choices. Part of this is handled by the guild weapons though. I would give them their death attack at 1st level but drop it from 10 HP to 5HP then every 5 levels afterwords it increases by +5 (10 at 6th, 15 at 11th, etc...) The Assassin's strike covers the single potent attack though I might lower the damage progression and give them an additional use per tier or give them a 'power point' like mechanic where they can expend these shroud points to deal 1D6 or D10 extra damage. they get 1-2pts at 1st level and earn additional as they go up in level (maybe 1-2 per level depending on the bonus damage) but they can spend a max of X points at once to keep it form becoming too over powering. Then you can feat in a Bonus +1 per point spent when you strike from combat advantage or something like that (equiv. to Leathal Hunter, Backstabber etc..)
Since the Assassin is built around the single devistating strike I'd remove the +1d6 they get with every attack and instead replace it with a Backstab encounter power like ability but in order to not step on the Rogue's toe's maybe make it a ability like the new version of Rightious Wrath of the Faithful Channel Divinity power and as they go up in level they get additional uses of that power.
Between the above two changes it really helps embrace the idea of very few very devistating attacks but outside of these few super-sized attacks they deal solid but otherwise average damage. In a Way you could think of it that a Warlock and Ranger will get their bonus damage 90% of the time, Rogues will sneak attack 75% of the time depending on power picks, the Assassin may only get their Striker damage 20% of the time but its gives 2-3 times the kick of a Sneak Attack with the Death Attack finishing off enemies with less than X HP allowing them to still feel valuable and strikery once their super-sized striker damage is expended.
I like the poisons but I would like to see more varities. especially ones that can be applied to weapons and ammo that have a save effect (for the Blowgun use, which the Blowgun at will is hidiously accurate given its hit effect it could be devistating). However as some have pointed out the issue of some of the poisons being used against PC's is valid as NPC's Monsters can become elite's by templeting into a class so their is precedent. So a further side bar should either say DM's should not use these poisons on PC's or the specific effects need to be tailored so that if used against a player its not as hidious as our concerns.
Lastly, I personally liked that The Assassin's super damage output was tempered by just how much of a glass cannon they were. I like that it had Wizard HP progression. That was part of the appeal. The assassin was devistating if it could get in close enough to deliver its devistating attacks but if cornered they were brought down swiftly. I might make Assassin's Strike limited to the Assassin Guild's weapons to prevent it from being used in conjunction with Greatbow's or Fullblades etc. In order to preserve the appeal of the special weapon groups (and to keep a little bit of control over just their super-striker attack potential).
I like the Assassin's strike but not the bonus damage to all attacks. I think their would be a better way to do this. The soul of an assassin is the single devistating strike and/or the very exotic weapon choices. Part of this is handled by the guild weapons though. I would give them their death attack at 1st level but drop it from 10 HP to 5HP then every 5 levels afterwords it increases by +5 (10 at 6th, 15 at 11th, etc...) The Assassin's strike covers the single potent attack though I might lower the damage progression and give them an additional use per tier or give them a 'power point' like mechanic where they can expend these shroud points to deal 1D6 or D10 extra damage. they get 1-2pts at 1st level and earn additional as they go up in level (maybe 1-2 per level depending on the bonus damage) but they can spend a max of X points at once to keep it form becoming too over powering. Then you can feat in a Bonus +1 per point spent when you strike from combat advantage or something like that (equiv. to Leathal Hunter, Backstabber etc..)
Since the Assassin is built around the single devistating strike I'd remove the +1d6 they get with every attack and instead replace it with a Backstab encounter power like ability but in order to not step on the Rogue's toe's maybe make it a ability like the new version of Rightious Wrath of the Faithful Channel Divinity power and as they go up in level they get additional uses of that power.
Please, for the love of god, don't listen to this. Assassins already get their single very devastating strike via the assassin's strike encounter power. If you remove the finesse bonus damage you will lower the DPS of this assassin to the point where it will become worthless. We finally have an assassin class worth playing. Lets not kill it before it even has a chance to flower. In this area, the mechanics that the class currently has are great as is; we should leave those mechanics as they are.
Some of the things I liked were the weapon based guild powers. However I instead of breaking it up into two guilds just mis-mash the whole lot of them together and when you choose the at-will you gain the prof. for that weapon as well. It can still be guild weapons but then your not specific to a particular guild. I like the fluff and flavor for the two presented but I wouldent restrict the list of player opens to them.
Unarmed Throw should maybe include a Slide the target to any square adjacent square then Push 1 square instead of just Push 1. Maybe add that if the target is thrown into a solid object such as a Wall, another enemy or a table the target takes 1, 2 or 3 points of damage or something cool like that. I'd maybe also allow it to be used as a Basic Melee when making Opportunity Attacks.
I like the idea of combining some of the special weapons with different weapons as I personally think the imagry I get grom Unseen Spear is kind of dumb. I mean, I get this image of sneaking up on a guy and putting them into a full nelson with a spear or javalin (why not a quarterstaff?). It might be cooler if you could use the power to pull a bad guy back into the shadows as part of the attack. Allowing the use of a short list of weapons with specific attacks would be nice (Garrot Strangle could include the spear/javalin as well as a dagger as you slice the guys throat as he struggles, Unseen Spearhead same weapon set, Kukri Lunge could be Daggers, Kurku, and maybe Rapier, Bolo Takedown maybe could be used with a Spear or Javalin as well but does Dex damage instead of immobilizing, Close Quarters Shot maybe could be any crossbow not just Hand Crossbows or any Crossbow or Bow, Uneering Shuriken would be nice to shift 2 before the attack or move your speed after, that way they can retrain combat advantage if they were hidden before the attack. Maybe also include that if they move their speed after the attack, they do not suffer the -5 penalty for moving more than 2)
I like the Assassin's strike but not the bonus damage to all attacks. I think their would be a better way to do this. The soul of an assassin is the single devistating strike and/or the very exotic weapon choices. Part of this is handled by the guild weapons though. I would give them their death attack at 1st level but drop it from 10 HP to 5HP then every 5 levels afterwords it increases by +5 (10 at 6th, 15 at 11th, etc...) The Assassin's strike covers the single potent attack though I might lower the damage progression and give them an additional use per tier or give them a 'power point' like mechanic where they can expend these shroud points to deal 1D6 or D10 extra damage. they get 1-2pts at 1st level and earn additional as they go up in level (maybe 1-2 per level depending on the bonus damage) but they can spend a max of X points at once to keep it form becoming too over powering. Then you can feat in a Bonus +1 per point spent when you strike from combat advantage or something like that (equiv. to Leathal Hunter, Backstabber etc..)
Since the Assassin is built around the single devistating strike I'd remove the +1d6 they get with every attack and instead replace it with a Backstab encounter power like ability but in order to not step on the Rogue's toe's maybe make it a ability like the new version of Rightious Wrath of the Faithful Channel Divinity power and as they go up in level they get additional uses of that power.
Between the above two changes it really helps embrace the idea of very few very devistating attacks but outside of these few super-sized attacks they deal solid but otherwise average damage. In a Way you could think of it that a Warlock and Ranger will get their bonus damage 90% of the time, Rogues will sneak attack 75% of the time depending on power picks, the Assassin may only get their Striker damage 20% of the time but its gives 2-3 times the kick of a Sneak Attack with the Death Attack finishing off enemies with less than X HP allowing them to still feel valuable and strikery once their super-sized striker damage is expended.
I like the poisons but I would like to see more varities. especially ones that can be applied to weapons and ammo that have a save effect (for the Blowgun use, which the Blowgun at will is hidiously accurate given its hit effect it could be devistating). However as some have pointed out the issue of some of the poisons being used against PC's is valid as NPC's Monsters can become elite's by templeting into a class so their is precedent. So a further side bar should either say DM's should not use these poisons on PC's or the specific effects need to be tailored so that if used against a player its not as hidious as our concerns.
Lastly, I personally liked that The Assassin's super damage output was tempered by just how much of a glass cannon they were. I like that it had Wizard HP progression. That was part of the appeal. The assassin was devistating if it could get in close enough to deliver its devistating attacks but if cornered they were brought down swiftly. I might make Assassin's Strike limited to the Assassin Guild's weapons to prevent it from being used in conjunction with Greatbow's or Fullblades etc. In order to preserve the appeal of the special weapon groups (and to keep a little bit of control over just their super-striker attack potential).
I agree with pretty much everything he said. I don't want "consistent", "predictable" damage for an Assassin. As he said, that's what Rangers, Warlocks, and Rogues are for. I like the "burstiness" of Assassin's Shroud, and I'd like to see something similar with this build.
I agree with pretty much everything he said. I don't want "consistent", "predictable" damage for an Assassin. As he said, that's what Rangers, Warlocks, and Rogues are for. I like the "burstiness" of Assassin's Shroud, and I'd like to see something similar with this build.
It is a good thing the build does get "burstiness" via assassin's strike...
Consistency is king. The Rogue gets nearly unlimited sneak attacks for a respectable damage each time. While the size of the damage might not cause anyone to soil their pants, much less of the damage is wasted.
The idea is that in my oppinion an Assassin should have the potential to take down a opponent in a single round between their death attack ability and assassin's strike bonus damage once per an encounter. After that he's done his job and should resort to good solid damage but otherwise nothing awesome special.
Give the ability to do Maximum damage (similar to a Crit but w/o the bonus d# from magical weapons) on an 18 or 19 and increasing to 17 and 16 at Paragon and Epic tier. Give them bonus damage (simialr to High Crit) when they actually do Critical.
I'm not saying Nerf their damage output at all but to make it very spikey similar to Barbarians only even better but less frequent because of how potent they are, thats all.
I don't like the bonus 1d6 damage from Attack Finesse that with no requirements. I think some good points have been made, but for me, it really cheapens other characters when this one can do that just cause it's deadly. I'd prefer if the lower level of damage was tied to the favored weapons at the very least, give us some justification.
All martial classes recieve bonuses with their weapon attacks. Slayers revieve 8+Dex, Knights 3, and Thiefs 4. Thiefs have sneak attack and backstab executioners recieve a higher bonus and one spike.
I don't like the bonus 1d6 damage from Attack Finesse that with no requirements. I think some good points have been made, but for me, it really cheapens other characters when this one can do that just cause it's deadly. I'd prefer if the lower level of damage was tied to the favored weapons at the very least, give us some justification.
All martial classes recieve bonuses with their weapon attacks. Slayers revieve 8+Dex, Knights 3, and Thiefs 4. Thiefs have sneak attack and backstab executioners recieve a higher bonus and one spike.
Hmmm... well that's different then. Carry on.
Ok, so, there is something I think I have caught. I am pretty sure all of the assassin's poisons should note that they apply the key words of the consumable to any attack/power a character uses with an item under the effect of the consumable...
nice catch
Issue: Ability scores.
Problem: The executioner write up mentions Charisma as a secondary ability score, yet none of the build's abilities actually key off that ability. This resurrects the design problems from 3E where some classes could just boost a single ability to stay at peak strength while other classes were forced to increase several abilities (aka "MAD" - multiple ability dependency).
Suggestion: Make some abilities dependent on the character's Charisma as suggested in the initial description. Perhaps the assassin's poisons can incorporate Charisma as part of their numerical effect. Perhaps give the assassin an additional utility power that allows him to enforce a penalty to the first save against one of his poisons equal to his Charisma modifier. Just something that encourages buffing Charisma and not dumping it in favor of other more useful abilities.
Issue: Death Attack.
Problem: Currently the wording allows the assassin to bypass all and any triggered effects that happen when a monster is reduced to 0 hit points (because dead does not automatically mean "at or below 0 hit points" - compare e.g. final condition of Sun Sickness from the DSCS; also, "dead" is not a defined condition according to the DDI Compendium which further complicates that ability and requires many ad-hoc decisions from the DM). It seems quite silly that an assassin can actually kill Lolth without triggering her Form of the Spider Queen (and subsequently denying her to use Divine Discorporation).
Suggestion: Change wording to "... you can choose to automatically drop the target to 0 hit points".
Issue: Poisons.
Problem: The old "bypassing established mechanics to damage/kill opponent" monster from the bygone 3E days (*cough* Constitution damage/drain *cough*) rears its ugly head again. While out of combat applications are useful and flavorful, they should not allow a character to automatically overcome an opponent without any check (be it an attack roll or save). Also, the sidebar explicitly mentions using these poisons against PCs, so without any sort of check (at least a Perception check to notice that the item/food has been poisoned) these mechanics are a quite dangerous two-edged blade.
Suggestion: Add an appropriate Perception check (perhaps DC 10 + 1/2 class level + assassin's Cha modifier) to notice the poison. Also add either appropriate attack rolls or saving throws to the out of combat applications to prevent automatic win/lose situations (depending on whether the poison is used by or against the PCs). Bypassing established mechanics that define how "tough" a monster is was quite bad in 3E and we really don't need the same disaster in 4E. Level 5 wizards autodefeating level 20 dragons does not need a revival (*cough* Shivering Touch *cough*).
Issue: Death Attack.
Problem: Currently the wording allows the assassin to bypass all and any triggered effects that happen when a monster is reduced to 0 hit points (because dead does not automatically mean "at or below 0 hit points" - compare e.g. final condition of Sun Sickness from the DSCS; also, "dead" is not a defined condition according to the DDI Compendium which further complicates that ability and requires many ad-hoc decisions from the DM). It seems quite silly that an assassin can actually kill Lolth without triggering her Form of the Spider Queen (and subsequently denying her to use Divine Discorporation).
Suggestion: Change wording to "... you can choose to automatically drop the target to 0 hit points".
I believe this is intentional and should be left as is. While I agree that it stinks if you have a bunch of "when your target hits 0 hit points" feats or whatever, I wouldn't make the change. The big distinction imho is that this ability makes them DEAD. So if there's a healer in the group, he can't just throw a heal and stand them back up. If you change it to "reduce to 0" this goes away. Speaking as a player who's DM loves mobs with heals, I wouldn't change the text for anything. Also, Shadow Coffin wouldn't trigger without this ability, and given what I've just mentioned about healers, having Shadow Coffin trigger off of 0 hp would be a bit premature.
While the consistent damage bonus a Thief gets is slightly lower than the average consistent damage bonus an Executioner gets, the multiple uses of Backstab along with the Rogue Tricks' for gaining combat advantage will far out distance the dps of this class.
This basically just emphasizes what I've said before, as a cool infiltrator, the Executioner is awesome. In a party fighting like "normal", it's just too weak.
I will say though, I have faith in Wizards that they'll improve this class and bring it up to snuff, and I DO think this playtest is a good starting point.
Just got my copy of Heroes of the Fallen Lands, and given that I have now seen the complete build for Thief, I don't see how they think Executioner is really viable at all.
While the consistent damage bonus a Thief gets is slightly lower than the average consistent damage bonus an Executioner gets, the multiple uses of Backstab along with the Rogue Tricks' for gaining combat advantage will far out distance the dps of this class.
This basically just emphasizes what I've said before, as a cool infiltrator, the Executioner is awesome. In a party fighting like "normal", it's just too weak.
I will say though, I have faith in Wizards that they'll improve this class and bring it up to snuff, and I DO think this playtest is a good starting point.
A thiefs average damage with its best damage based at-will power is 2d6+11+Dex Mod+Enhancment bonus with a +2 higher bonus to hit than the assassin. The assassin's best damage based at-will power is 3d6 (brutal 1) + Dex Mod + Enhancment bonus. That comes out to 18+Dex Mod+Enhancment bonus, with an extra +2 bonus to hit, vs. 12+Dex Mod+Enhancment bonus average damage. So, in the category of at-will damage, I agree with you. The assassin is underpowered. The first thing they need to do to fix that is make the assassin at-wills that do 2[w] damage in heroic tier do 4[w] damage in epic tier (and possibly 3[w] in paragon tier) so that they scale properly in damage. That will allow the assassin to keep up, and stay a viable choice past heroic tier. Then the average damage comparison will then be 18 + applicable mods vs. 16 + applicable mods. The rogue is still a little ahead. On a critical hit the rogue will be doing only 22 + applicable mods where the assassin will be dealing 24 + applicable mods. The rogue will also have an extra +2 to hit. I still think the advantage goes to the rogues court. But I think that with the extra damage from an assassin's poisons factored in the assassin will (maybe) even out here. I mean, with dark reaver powdered applied an assassin's average damage for the encounter jumps up to 26 + applicable modifiers, and every time the assassin hits he will daze the target until the end of his next turn.
Meanwhile, 3 uses of backstab total out to 12d6 damage, which is 42 average damage, and the assassin's one use of backstab totals out to 7d10 damage, which is 38.5 average damage. That is very comparable. It becomes even more comparable when you consider that if a thief misses with any one backstab attack its average damage drops by 14 points per backstab missed. Meanwhile, the assassin never misses with its assassin's strike. The assassin is, once again, the king of spike damage.
I do think that the assassin's effectivity needs some minor boosts. But I don't think it is as incomparable as you claim. Honestly, all I think the assassin needs is to have its 2[w] at wills boosted to 4[w] (instead of 3[w]) damage in epic tier, possibly have those at-wills do 3[w] in paragon tier, and to perhaps have the assassin's finesse grant a bonus to hit as well. Maybe a +1 bonut to hit in paragon tier, and a +2 bonus to hit in epic tier. Then again, when you factor in Death Attack, maybe that is not necessary. If a rogue hits a target and drops it to within 30 hit points of 0 hit points that taget will still need to be hit againt before it dies. Maybe even hit two more times (as the rogue will only deal something around 32 points of average damage with an at-will power, and can possibly roll less than 30 points of damage)! Meanwhile, if an assassin drops at arget to within 30 hit points of 0 hit points that target drops dead. So with the minor change to at-will powers, I think the assassin and the rogue do very comparable damage over all, with the assassin's spike damage being slightly higher than the rogues, while the rogues consistant/overall damage will be slightly higher than the assassins.
I actually don't see anything wrong with that. However, in terms of the calculation of my above post, it should then be noted that a thieves total damage from backstabs comes out to 42 average damage while an assassin's one use of assassin's strike comes out to 44 points of damage. Of course, backstab's +3 to hit might cause an attack that would have missed to hit. Meanwhile, while an assassin's strike will always be dealt at least once per encounter (and a backstab might loose out on some of its average damage by missing), it can't turn misses into hits (and turning a miss into a hit will increase a rogues average damage output over the course of an encounter by saving some of the potential at-will damage a rogue deals from being lost). Coupled with the rogues +2 extra bonus to hit from class features, I think everything evens out. I think assassin's strike is fine even if allows you to add enhancement bonus to its damage, but if that is the intent, and it is left as is, then I think that further adds to the argument that an assassin does not need an extra bonus to hit to be added for it to stay competitive with the rogue. All an assassin really needs in order to be considered even with the rogue is to have its 3[w] epic at-wills changed to 4[w] so that the assassin can continue to be viable in epic tier. Right now it falls behind in epic tier due to its at-wills not scaling properly once it hits epic tier...
While the consistent damage bonus a Thief gets is slightly lower than the average consistent damage bonus an Executioner gets, the multiple uses of Backstab along with the Rogue Tricks' for gaining combat advantage will far out distance the dps of this class.
Assassin damage with at-wills and encounters should be below that of thieves, to compensate the fact that they have dailies. Perhaps it would be easier to compare them with non-essentials classes, so that having dailies or not isn't a factor?
A thiefs average damage with its best damage based at-will power is 2d6+11+Dex Mod+Enhancment bonus with a +2 higher bonus to hit than the assassin. The assassin's best damage based at-will power is 3d6 (brutal 1) + Dex Mod + Enhancment bonus.
Could you explain these numbers? A Thief's Weapon Finesse maxes out at +5, so I'm not sure where the +11 comes from. Also, the Assassin always gets his Finesse bonus, so I don't see how it could be less than (at max level) 3d6 (brutal 1) + 3d6 unless I'm missing something. Also, you say "with a +2 higher bonus to hit", which I don't get. Thief Weapon Talent is only +1 (unless I missed it scaling somewhere), and if you mean combat advantage, then Sneak Attack should be included.
Could you break it down for us? Feel free to leave out Dex mod and Enhancement bonus, since those are a wash.
A thiefs average damage with its best damage based at-will power is 2d6+11+Dex Mod+Enhancment bonus with a +2 higher bonus to hit than the assassin. The assassin's best damage based at-will power is 3d6 (brutal 1) + Dex Mod + Enhancment bonus.
Could you explain these numbers? A Thief's Weapon Finesse maxes out at +5, so I'm not sure where the +11 comes from. Also, the Assassin always gets his Finesse bonus, so I don't see how it could be less than (at max level) 3d6 (brutal 1) + 3d6 unless I'm missing something. Also, you say "with a +2 higher bonus to hit", which I don't get. Thief Weapon Talent is only +1 (unless I missed it scaling somewhere), and if you mean combat advantage, then Sneak Attack should be included.
Could you break it down for us? Feel free to leave out Dex mod and Enhancement bonus, since those are a wash.
Sure. A shortsword does 1d6 damage. An epic level basic attack does 2[w] damage. That is 2d6. A rogue's finesse grants +5 damage. Acrobat's trick grants you a +6 bonus (in epic tier) to your next attack roll. That is +11 damage total. I actually miscalculated on the higher attack bonus. It is only +1. I was counting the extra +1 from the shortsword (a kukri only has a +2 proficiency bonus to hit, a shortsword has a +3 proficiency bonus to hit), but I forgot to factor in that with kukri lunge you get an extra +1 to attack due to the fact that you are charging.
So yea, all in all, crunching the numbers, the assassin seems very well balanced against the rogue. The only problem I have found is that the 2[w] assassin at-will powers don't scale properly in epic tier. They should not become 3[w] damage, but 4[w] damage. What makes the 3[w] damage even more odd is that in the case of the sherukin power they did scale the power properly, and did give it a 4[w] damage roll in epic tier. I don't know why any of the others are listed as 3[w]. Hopfully the final version will fix that.
Sure. A shortsword does 1d6 damage. An epic level basic attack does 2[w] damage. That is 2d6. A rogue's finesse grants +5 damage. Acrobat's trick grants you a +6 bonus (in epic tier) to your next attack roll. That is +11 damage total. I actually miscalculated on the higher attack bonus. It is only +1. I was counting the extra +1 from the shortsword (a kukri only has a +2 proficiency bonus to hit, a shortsword has a +3 proficiency bonus to hit), but I forgot to factor in that with kukri lunge you get an extra +1 to attack due to the fact that you are charging.
So yea, all in all, crunching the numbers, the assassin seems very well balanced against the rogue. The only problem I have found is that the 2[w] assassin at-will powers don't scale properly in epic tier. They should not become 3[w] damage, but 4[w] damage. What makes the 3[w] damage even more odd is that in the case of the sherukin power they did scale the power properly, and did give it a 4[w] damage roll in epic tier. I don't know why any of the others are listed as 3[w]. Hopfully the final version will fix that.
Well, see, what I was actually going for was including their bonus damage. If we assume that both of them have combat advantage (actually almost a given using Rogue Trick's, but we'll give it to the Assassin as well to rule out the to-hit bonus). I'll also leave out Dex and Enhancement bonus, since, as I said, that's a wash.
So for the Assassin we have:
3d6 (Brutal 1) + 3d6 = average of 22.5
For the Thief we have:
2d6 + 5 + 5d6 = average of 29.5 (with a +1 better chance to hit)
Again, I know this requires the rogue to have combat advantage, but between Ambush Trick and Tactical Trick, if you can't arrange that, you need to shoot your other party members. This is also where this being a playtest article kinda blows though. For the Thief, realistically, you'd take Backstabber and if you go Master Thief PP, your sneak attack becomes brutal 1. These make the Thief:
2d6 + 5 + 5d8 (brutal 1) = average of 37.
Unfortunately, we have no feat support for the Assassin yet (again, because it's a playtest), but you can say that the Master Thief seems to help the dps of a Thief more than Guild Executioner helps the dps of the Assassin. (Yeah, I know Guild Executioner gives +2d10 to Assassin's Strike, but Master Thief gives another use of Backstab). Possibly with a feat to boost Attack Finesse, this would balance out, but excluding feats and PP, it's still a 25% difference in dps. While I'll yield the point that the Executioner doesn't have to worry about CA, again, I think that's less of an issue with the Rogue Trick's than it would be for a non-Thief rogue.
I will revise my former criticism of Assassin's Strike though. The fact that you can't miss with it does help it some. I'd still like to see more than one use per encounter, possibly at lower damage, because I think having (essentially) one Encounter Attack Power total just seems.....blah. I mean, I see that multiple uses of Backstab average out to about the same damage, but somehow getting to do "something interesting" on multiple rounds just seems like "more fun." I will grant, however, that this is a play-style choice rather than a statement about the effectiveness of the class.
So, overall, I think we definitely need to see some feat support, and I agree that the changing to 4W at epic level would help narrow the gap (bringing the average from 22.5 to 26.5).
Actually, I think they should reword the assassin at-wills so they're not poachable via Half-Elf. Rogues can do scary things along these lines as well.
I don't think they are poachable. Dilettante needs a 1st level at-will, and these have no level.
...stuff...
One, you keep forgetting to add in acrobat's trick bonus damage to the damage calculation.
Two, I intentionally calculated and compared only unmodified damage of the at-will's, and backstab vs. assassin's strike. That is because backstab and assassin's strike are directly allegorical; both represent their respective class's per encounter capabilities. Likewise, the at-wills are directly allegorical. Mathematically, backstab and assassin's strike are very comparable. At-will damage via kukri lunge and a rogue's basic attack coupled with acrobat's trick are also very comparable, until epic tier where kukri lunge does not scale properly (it should be noted that none of the 3[w] damage in epic tier powers scale properly; all of those powers should be upped to 4[w] in epic tier, and possibly 3[w] in paragon tier).
Since the at-wills compare to each other, and backstab and assassin's strike compare to each other, all that is left is to see how the rogue's sneak attack damage compares to the assassins bonus damage dice. There is no easy way to compare the assassin's bonus damage dice to the rogues sneak attack. The rogues sneak attack requires combat advantage. The assassin's does not. The rogue's is limited to being dealt once per turn. The assassin's is not. They are very different. But I would argue that they are about equivalent as well. I think it is fair to say that a rogue is going to have combat advantage on 2 out of every 3 attacks. Over the course of three attacks that will equal 10d6 potential extra damage (in epic tier). An assassin doesn't need combat advantage to adds its bonus damage dice. Over the course of 3 attacks that means an assassin can potentially add 9 bonus damage dice. Again, that is very comparable. The difference is made up by the assassin's poisons, and the fact that the assassin will sometimes get the chance to deal his damage dice multiple times within a single turn (this, by the way, is a good argument for them not to remove the assassin's ability to deal this bonus damage multiple times in a single turn).
All in all, I can not agree with your assessment. The executioner and the thief are very comparable. The thief is more polished, but the executioner is still a playtest article. Certain changes do need to be made. The at-will powers need to have their epic tier damage increased from 3[w] to 4[w]. The developers might want to increase those powers to 3[w] damage at paragon tier. The quick draw ability should allow a person to draw a weapon or a poison as a free action (so that you don't need to spend two minor actions to apply a poison). The executioner really needs feat support (something along the lines of backstabber, which increase the die size of its striker damage from d6 to d8 is a must). But the discrepancy between the two of them is nowhere near as bad as you made it sound. The assassin has the foundations of a very well balanced (and fun) class. All it needs right now is a little polish, some more options, and some feat support.
And I really don't agree with your assessment that assassin's strike should have its damage reduced, but it should gain an extra use of assassin's strike, either. If you want multiple uses of a weaker ability you pick the thief and use backstab. If you want the ability to pull of a single very powerful round of nova damage you choose an assassin. And, quite frankly, that really fits the tone and theme of the assassin. I like it the way it is. I don't see the need to further homoginize assassin's strike and backstab.
P.S. +2d10 damage with an assassin's strike is very comparable to an extra use of backstab. An extra use of backstab grants you +4d6 extra damage. That is an average of 14 extra damage. +2d10 results in an average of +10 extra damage. 10 and 14 are comparable. That becomes even more true when you factor in that the assassins damage will be stacked on top of the 7d10 to further improve its nova damage capability (allowing to, very possibly, take out a single powerful mob in a single round), and that extra 2d10 damage will always be dealt. The rogues extra 14 points of average damage might turn into 0 extra damage if he rolls low on his backstab's attack roll.
Er, quick question. Assassin's strike is not worded as extra damage. It is, in fact, its own effect damage. If I read this correctly, does that mean that an assassin's strike actually has its enhancement bonus, from a weapon, added to its damage?
No because it's an extra damage. It is in addition to the initial damage and of the same type ....
Effect: The target takes 1d10 extra damage from the triggering attack.
Hence why the redundancy if the Special footnote:
Special: If the target is helpless, this power inflicts maximum damage.
For extra damage are already maxed out on a Crit.
That's debatable, actually. For damage which would be rolled anyway, yes, Critting maxes it out automatically. Assassin's Strike is assigned after hitting, so it is at best an ambiguous situation. Based on the fact that they made that note it can probably be inferred that it is NOT intended to maximize on normal critical hits.
Assassin's Strike deals, in other words "Extra Damage" in the sense referred to by the Critical Hit rule:
"Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll."
You need to hit and assign this extra damage after a hit. How is that so different than Sneak Attack or Quarry ? They need to hit and you assign their extra damage after a hit ...
Do not mix Extra damage which are in addition to original damage and of the same type unless noted otherwise,
and Critical Extra damage, which are extra damage that are only rolled when a Critical Hit is scored. Only these are rolled normally. If THIS extra damage ....refer to the one mentioned just previously. PPrecisely "Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons"
If Sneak, Quarry and Assassin Strike are normally rolled damage when a hit happen, then they will be maxed out if a Crit happen.
One, you keep forgetting to add in acrobat's trick bonus damage to the damage calculation.
I wasn't forgetting it. As I said, I was assuming that the Rogue Trick would be used to gain combat advantage. Overall, CA will result in more damage than the bonus from acrobat's trick.
Since the at-wills compare to each other, and backstab and assassin's strike compare to each other, all that is left is to see how the rogue's sneak attack damage compares to the assassins bonus damage dice. There is no easy way to compare the assassin's bonus damage dice to the rogues sneak attack. The rogues sneak attack requires combat advantage. The assassin's does not. The rogue's is limited to being dealt once per turn. The assassin's is not. They are very different. But I would argue that they are about equivalent as well. I think it is fair to say that a rogue is going to have combat advantage on 2 out of every 3 attacks. Over the course of three attacks that will equal 10d6 potential extra damage (in epic tier). An assassin doesn't need combat advantage to adds its bonus damage dice. Over the course of 3 attacks that means an assassin can potentially add 9 bonus damage dice. Again, that is very comparable. The difference is made up by the assassin's poisons, and the fact that the assassin will sometimes get the chance to deal his damage dice multiple times within a single turn (this, by the way, is a good argument for them not to remove the assassin's ability to deal this bonus damage multiple times in a single turn).
Just to clarify, because this is new, but due to the recent errata to sneak attack, rogues can deal sneak attack once per TURN instead of once per round. While I admit that the Assassin does have any edge in that they can deal their damage multiple times per TURN, unless you go with something like Half-Elf -> Twin Strike, it's unlikely to ever come up.
Regardless of all the dps discussion. Would it really uber-break the build to just give them Shadow Step? It's a really "cool" ability, and I don't think it would hurt the build at all. Also, Shade Form or some variant would give them another way to "re-hide" in combat.
Just thoughts...
Regardless of all the dps discussion. Would it really uber-break the build to just give them Shadow Step? It's a really "cool" ability, and I don't think it would hurt the build at all. Also, Shade Form or some variant would give them another way to "re-hide" in combat.
I don't think it would be all that broken, in absolute terms, but it might do horrible things to the tenuous balance between Ess. Assassin and original assassin. I don't have damage numbers in front of me, but the general impression seems to be that Executioners are rather capable strikers, whereas other Assassins tend to perform poorly. However, those Assassins do have a number of awesome toys (i.e. Shadow Step and company) to justify playing them if you don't care too much for raw power. Giving those out to the Executioner could make people forget that there are other assassin builds altogether.
I do think that melee executioners need some kind of tool for movement and hiding, and perhaps it can be covered by an additional at-will. Although it is true that executioners bring an unusually high amount of at-wills already, the fact that they are ultra-specialized and include non-damaging choices leaves room for some more. Likewise, the ranged build has plenty of mobility at-wills, but I feel it's missing its Unseen Spearhead - a strong offensive move, even if it is restricted in use.
You grab the target. If you are still grabbing the target at the start of your next turn you treat the target as helpless, with any attacks you make with the javelin or spear, for as long as you continue to grab the target
Ok,
The Red Scales “proficient” use of unarmed attacks and Unarmed Throw assassin attack power need some clarification and adjustment.
UNARMED ATTACKS
It’s confusing why unarmed attacks were called out for the Red Scales in the first place, isn’t everyone proficient with unarmed attacks according to the rules and there isn’t any proficiency bonus for them.
Using the improvised weapon chart in the Rules Compendium, a Red Scales assassin with a 18 Dex would have the following melee basic attack:
+4 (Dex mod) vs. AC; 1d4 (Unarmed Attack) +1d6 (Attack Finesse) +4 (Dex mod) damage.
Aside from the attack finesse damage, there is no real reason to ever use this unless you have been disarmed.
A simple dagger would be 15% more likely to hit because of its +3 proficiency bonus to the melee basic attack. Plus, you could throw it as a ranged basic attack with the same damage.
Potential fix:
I would give the executioner assassin in general a special unarmed strike like the monk, an assassin unarmed strike if you will, only it would be a 1d4 damage instead of 1d8.
Grant the Red Scales a bump in damage to 1d6 or 1d8 as part of their “special training”
UNARMED THROW
This as it stands has limited utility. I would add at the very least the assassin’s Dex mod damage. I would also allow this ability to used as a basic attack when making opportunity attacks. I would also make it clear that you could choose not to push target and or make it prone.
My two coppers,
Bryan Blumklotz
My rules may be shaky on this, but the level 1 poison Nitharit Poison has an alternate use that causes a creature to lose poison immunity until it takes an extended rest. Seeing as how the ability has the poison keyword, a creature with immunity to poison would be immune to this alternate effect.
That's pretty funny! Your reasoning seems sound to me, unfortunately.
-When using Unseen Spearhead and Garrote Strangle is the following correct?
I think you move close to your target while Stealthing, shift behind him, and then attack. I think you check for Stealth after the move but not after the shift. If you suceeded then I believe the shift is part of the attack, one that breaks stealth whether successful or not. The end result is a hit which reveals you or a miss that also reveals you.
10 gp; 1 lb.
That is all,
Bryan Blumklotz