by Scott Fitzgerald Gray
Possible spooilers
[INDENT]The third installment in the Scales of War Adventure Path is here! Having saved Overlook from the threat posed by the orog Tusk, the PCs return to the city as heroes. There, they find that something new threatens the city and Elsir Vale beyond it. Their quest to discover who is behind the mountain orcs' organization, as well as their well-armed orog leaders, will take the heroes beyond this world and into the Shadowfell.
In "Siege of Bordrin's Watch," the PCs discovered that dark creepers had sold arms and tactical intelligence to the orc war chief Tusk, aiding him in his attack against the folk of the Stonehome Mountains. In this adventure, the PCs investigate the link between the orcs and the dark ones, stumbling into an arms-running operation bridging two planes and finally confronting the charismatic figure behind it.
Sarshan is an opportunistic shadar-kai arms dealer. For years, he has built an invisible mercantile empire around the sale and brokering of weapons, armor, mercenaries, and intelligence from his domain in the Shadowfell. Though Sarshan plays a significant part in this adventure, the PCs' initial focus is on one of his lieutenants -- a dark creeper shadowborn stalker named Modra.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]The third installment in the Scales of War Adventure Path is here! Having saved Overlook from the threat posed by the orog Tusk, the PCs return to the city as heroes. There, they find that something new threatens the city and Elsir Vale beyond it. Their quest to discover who is behind the mountain orcs' organization, as well as their well-armed orog leaders, will take the heroes beyond this world and into the Shadowfell.
In "Siege of Bordrin's Watch," the PCs discovered that dark creepers had sold arms and tactical intelligence to the orc war chief Tusk, aiding him in his attack against the folk of the Stonehome Mountains. In this adventure, the PCs investigate the link between the orcs and the dark ones, stumbling into an arms-running operation bridging two planes and finally confronting the charismatic figure behind it.
Sarshan is an opportunistic shadar-kai arms dealer. For years, he has built an invisible mercantile empire around the sale and brokering of weapons, armor, mercenaries, and intelligence from his domain in the Shadowfell. Though Sarshan plays a significant part in this adventure, the PCs' initial focus is on one of his lieutenants -- a dark creeper shadowborn stalker named Modra.[/INDENT]
namely the DC's
- DC7 diplomacy, athletics and acrobatics
- DC12 bluff, streetwise, thievery, insight, stealth
- DC17 intimidate?
those should be way higher
but it's still nice to read
There is an obvious flaw in the "Modra's Plot" skill challenge.
namely the DC's
- DC7 diplomacy, athletics and acrobatics
- DC12 bluff, streetwise, thievery, insight, stealth
- DC17 intimidate?
those should be way higher
but it's still nice to read
Depends on how easy or hard this is supposed to be - those line up with the easy/moderate/hard errata'd DC's for a level 4 group, but on the other hand I can't remember how complexity interacts with difficulty.
If it even does.
Incidentally, the art is rockin'.
What level should the PCs be when they hit this?
Partway through level 4, if this follows directly on Siege of Bordrin's Watch.
Partway through level 4, if this follows directly on Siege of Bordrin's Watch.
After the Quest rewards, the players I DM for went to 47 XP above past 5th-level. We've never had extra encounters and I've never used random encounters. So, there ya go...
After the Quest rewards, the players I DM for went to 47 XP above past 5th-level. We've never had extra encounters and I've never used random encounters. So, there ya go...
I suspect my group may skate past 5th too before they get to this adventure, though we did have a couple extra encounters (not to level them, but because they made sense and it was game night).
However, per the adventure, at least, they expect the party to be about halfway to 5th level, and make it to 6th by the end of the Umbraforge adventure.
What level should the PCs be when they hit this?
From the article:
"“The Shadow Rift of Umbraforge” is an adventure for five 4th-level characters who are approximately halfway to 5th level."
Also, a creature on page 22 is described as seething in its stat block, but mad in the adventure text.
I agree that the art is wonderful. The image on page 24 just drips atmosphere.
Am I missing something? When did the party get a brass key? As far as I can tell, the hook is something that never occured in the previous adventure.
It's retconned in, more or less. The Dark One Emissary in the Boiler Room in the previous adventure is Iranda, and the key is/was one of its possessions. It can either have-been-found during the previous adventure (if, like my group, we haven't gotten to that point yet) or it could have been stashed somewhere safe in Overlook.
But, once that issue is overlooked, we have a very good adventure- well fleshed out NPCs, lots of roleplaying opportunities, and some good combat adventures. All wrapped up in an amazing location. Overall, definite thumbs-up.
1) It's a lot easier for the party to come in through the front door and get surprise than for them to come in through the broken wall and do same, yet the broken wall entrance is the reward for successfully completing the skill challenge. Compare: DC 12 Strength check straight up to open the front door and gain surprise, vs DC 17 Thievery check to avoid collapse of the wall, and then DC 12 Strength check to open the break.
Suggested solution: Increase the DC for the front door Strength check, reduce the DC for the wall-stabilization Thievery check.
2) The party is in a *much* better tactical position if they come through the front door than if they come through the broken wall. Through the wall, they have to get through all of the minions to get to the artillery, and the boar has relatively easy access to them. Plus they're taking damage from the pipes on round 1, and have to fight through the minions to stop taking damage. Through the front door, they get to immediately set on the artillery and then pick off the minions, and they're in a nice open space where they have lots of movement options.
Suggested solution: Shift the broken wall to be south of the vats on the east wall, so the characters enter behind the cover of the boxes. Exchange the two snarlers with two of the maulers in the east.
3) How the hell does the boar move around, or even survive? It's enormous, it's going to be taking damage every round from the pipes, and it can't get over the bridges. The party can just leave it on its side of the lava flow to die of heat exhaustion and it can't touch them.
Suggested solution: Not sure what to do here. Perhaps widening the north-south bridge to two squares and allowing the boar a Dexterity check to navigate it.
So, what do you think? Do these seem like problems to you as well? Do these solutions sound reasonable? Do you see any way of improving things?
Shadowgoblins' types appear to be wrong, I think they should be Shadow Humanoids (Goblin).
The Half-Elf Ranger has Shadow Wasp Strike, but it lists it as attacking AC. The update says Shadow Wasp Strike should now be against Reflex.
In addition her type is listed as "Striker" but since it is an NPC/Monster I think it should be Skirmisher.
Yeah- the key retcon is my main issue with the adventure... but it'd be nice to be able to know of the connection when it comes up, not have it retconned in. It's one thing to not want to spoil things for the DM- it's another to not tell them things that the characters should know at that point.
Morior expresses my feelings exactly. I was disappointed to see this:
The key found at the end of the previous adventure (see The Key to the Shadowfell Gate sidebar on page 6) ...
Um, that's something a DM needs to know before it pops up. The group I DM for finished "Siege of Bordrin's Watch" over a week ago. We were waiting to play this new third installment. Now, I gotta retcon this matter or otherwise dance around the issue. Are the authors not communicating as they write these?
I appreciate the sidebar's advice on how to retcon the brass key, but the fact that it was not listed as a possession in "Siege of Bordrin's Watch" is a bit sloppy. A decent "campaign overview" would have been a good place to sign-post this pretty important connection between parts two and three. Perhaps The Key to the Shadowfell Gate sidebar should have also been in "Siege of Bordrin's Watch's" V-3 area or the The Vents Overview page (page 41).
Yeah- the key retcon is my main issue with the adventure. Great how they're providing a strong connection between adventures- but it'd be nice to be able to know of the connection when it comes up, not have it retconned in. It's one thing to not want to spoil things for the DM- it's another to not tell them things that the characters should know at that point.
Yeah I'm left wondering if it was intentional so as to not to spoil the surprise for the DM
or because there really wasn't a link until they started writing this adventure and needed to make one up.Yeah I'm left wondering if it was intentional so as to not to spoil the surprise for the DM
Oh clearly planed as a surprise for the DM, because market research indicates many DMs want to be surprised. *shrugs*
That said, if your party isn't quite to the level that "Shadow Rift" wants you to be at, it's not too hard to work something up. Maybe the parchment that the Lost Ones have on them that set the PCs on Morda's tail also mentions that the key would have been picked up from the Vents off a small dark-skinned creature. While Iranda didn't have it on him, it stands to reason that he likely stashed it somewhere the party didn't check. A return to the Vents is required, and some stuff might have crept in and settled since then. Additionally, the route the magazine suggests (that Iranda hid the key somewhere in Overlook) would work well also, and give a good change of pace from the constant dungeon-crawl.
I'm not happy with it, since the main purpose of an AP is that 90% of the work is already done for you, the remaining 10% being personalizing it and tailoring the adventure to fit your party. Still, this is the AP we've got. :S
The maps have gone back to single layer. Shame. I was hoping dual layer maps that allow you to grab the map without labels would be a regular thing.
How did you grab the maps without the labels? I worked really hard to remove them and must admit that I did not do a very good job.
To be fair, I haven't seen an adventure path without some of the problems mentioned above, so it is ok for me. In addition, I am excited to run the adventure for my players.
If the quality continue to improve I will definitely subscribe.
The adventure itself seemed very good - the jaunt to the Shadowfell was evocative, the art was great, there is a ton of material to expand on, and we're finally starting to see the outline of a wider plot come into focus.
Here's hoping some of the upcoming DDM sets include more Shadar-kai! I'll need 'em.
Why would Leena tell the party about secret tunnel to her master's base? Why not just tell them about the sabotage and leave that part out? Or send their own guards? Even still, I see my group finishing Modra's sabotage after they have killed him, which kinda makes Sarshan's offer to join him not work. Also I know my group will try to use the portal at the beginning. If the party can convert the portal at the end, why wouldn't they be able to use the one at the beginning? The plots in this path don't seem very thought out.
I finished reading this and I see some issues with the plot.
Why would Leena tell the party about secret tunnel to her master's base? Why not just tell them about the sabotage and leave that part out? Or send their own guards? Even still, I see my group finishing Modra's sabotage after they have killed him, which kinda makes Sarshan's offer to join him not work. Also I know my group will try to use the portal at the beginning. If the party can convert the portal at the end, why wouldn't they be able to use the one at the beginning? The plots in this path don't seem very thought out.
As it is stated in the adventure Leena is an opportunist that first weights the PCs and then give information about Modra and Sarshan. Taking in mind that WotC will not reveal anything to the DM then you won't get an answer. This might not be too bad as you can now work with the story and insert hooks that may be revealed later.
question- is Reniss the half elf ranger ment to acompany them into the rift?? not read the whole module yet.
It is stated in the adventure that Reniss accompanies the PCs to the Happy Beggar. Well, I will extend it also to the Shadowfell, in order to be able to take revenge for her sister. Also I want her to become a recurring NPC, so...
Errata thread updated with errata noted to this point
Where is the errata thread? Can you link to it in your post? Thanks!
Edit: Duh. Nevermind. I found it.
1) That one
2) It's hidden somewhere in Outlook, if you need to dole out some extra XP, or
3) It's on the witch at the Shadowfell gate. Easy enough to throw in.
Given that I haven't started it yet, I'll put the key in the 'Siege'. Had I played it through first, I would use option 3, easy enough wth no groaning about shoddy storytelling.
Honestly, I think these adventures are indeed flawed in a few ways, but I'm willing to work with it to make them work. Considering that it's a sixth of the way through, I hope I'll be making the right decisions. If not, I'll put in the additional work to get back on track.
The key placement was annoying, but I got over it. Here'e some actual issues that came up in play:
1. Excessive, um, linear outcomes. In the Last Stand, my party bluffed accepting Sarshan's offer. What's the point of rolling bluff checks that don't really affect anything?
2. The foundry fight was very hard (despite the fact that the boar took a lot of damage from pipes and trench) -- pcs needed an extended rest right away, luckily they "found" the secret shrine (my decree).
3. Once in the tower, my party triggered a giant encounter -- the library, great hall, and yes, the gatehouse all at once. It wasn't really their fault either -- they didn't do anything wrong, just a conspiracy of events.
4. What's worse, the party dropped the dark haunter immediately after he opened the gatehouse door, but before he could run outside, meaning that instead of half the gatehouse pursuing the dark haunter, the entire gatehouse would have fought the pcs. So, lamely, I had the wraith flee, and half the guards pursue. What the guards were planning to do if they managed to catch up, I'm not too sure.
5. The pcs are trapped in the tower, so they tend to feel their primary goal is escape. Once the gatehouse door is open, the pcs might be tempted to make a break for it, as opposed to, say, escape by climbing higher in the tower.
Overall, though, we really enjoyed the adventure.
1) The Black Cavern encounter is correctly clocked at 750 XP. That's a Level 3 encounter for a party of 5. Strangely, it's billed as a Level 4 encounter.
2) The White Shrine encounter is calculated at 1500 XP - but I have no idea from where they get that number. If you count only the 5 wraiths and the 1 seething wraith, it's a total of 1300 XP. If you add in Modra as well (which I wouldn't unless the party actually kills him here, since he's supposed to stay out of the fight as much as possible and escape upon getting the chance), it's a total of 1900 XP. If the witch from the Transfer Portal encounter escapes here, that adds another 300 XP, making 1600 or 2200, respectively. NONE of this comes out to 1500. DOES NOT COMPUTE.
3) The Dark Foundry encounter is also miscalculated. It claims to be level 8, at 1852 XP; it lies. Totaling everything present (Modra, the Death Boar, the two Snarlers, and the 8 Maulers) comes out to a whopping 2204 XP. I recall some folks reported this encounter as very hard - small wonder, since it's actually level 9+, rather than level 8 as billed. To get the 1852 number, you'd need to remove 4 Maulers.
4) The Last Stand encounter is also wrong. It claims to be level 7, at 1500 XP. It's actually easier - Thannu and his two panthers only come up to 1200 XP total; just shy of a level 6 encounter. At least this one has an explanation: they apparently included the "Configuring the Portal" skill challenge into the total encounter XP award.
5) Finally, Shadows of Doom has me completely befuddled: Are there 5 Specters or 6? There is equal evidence for both sides.
A] The total XP award is set at 875. Each Specter is worth 175. 875/175 = 5. Five Specters.
B] But the Specter stat block clearly says "6 Specters."
C] And the flavor text in the second column says "Where it strikes the Shadowfell archway, a flare of black erupts from the stone, congealing into six humanoid figures." So, six specters.
D] But the flavor text in the third column says "The boiling field of shadow within the archway is suddenly rent by the five figures as they claw their way through it." So five specters...
E] ...but the very next sentence says "With a shriek like shredding steel, the black mists within the Shadowfell gate are torn apart, the six specters seeming to absorb the darkness as it fades away." So six specters! AUUGH!
F] To heck with it. Maybe I'll just throw a young black dragon at them instead and call it a day. ;)
Oh, and one last observation: Some noted that the "Seething Wraith" monster is paired with "tactics" text that makes reference to a "Mad Wraith" instead. Perusing the MM, I see what happened there... they took the MM Mad Wraith (a level 6 Controller) and bumped it up a level to make the Seething Wraith (a level 7 Controller), but didn't update the tactics text. Though the Seething Wraith strikes me as having a lot of hp for an insubstantial creature at Level 7.
For those who've run this adventure - what did you do for scaling of any of the above encounters? Any tips for running the adventure as a whole? My team is about to square off against Tusk at the Nexus in Bordrin's Watch, so they're one encounter away from starting this adventure. It looks to be fun, despite the editing bizarreness cited above. ;) Thanks.
Some answers, and a question:
Regarding balance, the bat encounter is definitely too easy. The bats are very low level, and they died quickly. The mushrooms added little to the encounter. They only affect bloodied characters (nobody was close to bloodied) and the party can easily just avoid them anyway.
The next room seemed pretty balanced overall. The witch's aura is really really nasty (especially if you define her moving the aura on top of a party member as "entering" the aura. This has been discussed ad nauseum on the Wizard board, so let's not have that discussion here). The problem is that it's very easy for her to run away, as described in the "tactics" section. It's a very small room, and she is able to teleport. Running away takes only one turn, so there's no real way for the party to stop her once she decides to flee. The party can either pursue (thus triggering the next encounter as well) or let her go and add her to the next encounter.
Speaking of the next encounter, this was really difficult for my group. I actually thought it was going to be a lot easier than it was, because the party has both a Cleric and a Paladin who are able to do Radiant damage. However, the dual auras (between the Seething Wraith and the Witch) were incredibly powerful. Stacking the two auras, the players were subject to all of the following every turn, automatically without a chance to miss:
10 damage
Daze
Concealment for all enemies
Difficult terrain
The party very nearly wiped here. With an automatic Daze, all the Wraiths and Modra are doing extra damage for having combat advantage. I had Modra run away pretty early (he went invisible and pickpocketed the key during combat). If he had stuck around longer, the party probably would have wiped. As it was, 3 of the 5 characters went unconscious, and two of them very nearly died. One was on 2 of 3 death saving throws, and the other almost went to negative bloodied because of the auras. I completely forgot about the wraiths' ability to regenerate as well. I think you're right - the Seething Wraith has a boatload of HP for an insubstantial creature. He effectively has 150 HP. Combined with Modra and the Witch, that's almost 350 HP not even including the regular wraiths, which regenerate!
My suggestion: don't make the Witch escape the previous encounter.
So, my question for the upcoming part:
The party has done a bit of exploring in the Umbraforge now, although there's still some to be done next session. They haven't learned of Modra's plot to destroy the Foundry yet, but they have already briefly discussed a desire to somehow destroy Sarshan's operation by causing a magma overflow, or causing the volcano to erupt. Given that they are more concerned about Sarshan's army than Modra (as they should be - Sarshan is a much bigger threat overall), why wouldn't they just let Modra destroy the Foundry and disrupt Sarshan's plot? They could easily just let him destroy the Foundry, and then either track him down later or just forget about him.
In my game, I'll probably let the witch have the chance to run - but then when the party comes into the portal room they'll see her and Modra fighting. Modra wants that key! And then the wraiths descend on the party since they're not shadow creatures. Should be fun to see what they do.
So, my question for the upcoming part:
The party has done a bit of exploring in the Umbraforge now, although there's still some to be done next session. They haven't learned of Modra's plot to destroy the Foundry yet, but they have already briefly discussed a desire to somehow destroy Sarshan's operation by causing a magma overflow, or causing the volcano to erupt. Given that they are more concerned about Sarshan's army than Modra (as they should be - Sarshan is a much bigger threat overall), why wouldn't they just let Modra destroy the Foundry and disrupt Sarshan's plot? They could easily just let him destroy the Foundry, and then either track him down later or just forget about him.
Do they still have Reniss the NPC with them? If so, I'd say try the following:
1. Instead of being Modra's henchmen, let the Shadowgoblins in the foundry be loyal to Sarshan. But Modra's snuck in to do his sabotage. He is disguised as one, after all.
2. When the fight launches, and Modra reveals himself, let him sic the Boar on the Shadowgoblins (although it's not discriminating about who it attacks, so it'll still be gunning for the party once it reaches them).
3. Then, let Modra shout to the party about how he's doing the right thing, that Sarshan needs to be stopped, etc., etc., trying to get the party on his side. Sounds like they may be receptive...
4. ...which, if they accept, will result in Reniss turning on them for agreeing to deal with this murderer!
And if they kill Reniss with Modra's help? Heck, maybe let him go with them into Sarshan's tower. It's a given that he'll betray them and try to escape at some point, though. Maybe let him get eaten by the Specters at the end. ;)
...Although I have to say, the more I think about the whole "5 or 6 Specters?!?" bizarreness, the more I'm seriously considering swapping them for a young black dragon. Maybe I'll bump it a level and theme it as a "shadow dragon" born when the portal goes haywire. Maybe (in your game) the shadow portal could go haywire on Modra and turn him into a mindless shadow dragon boss fight!
Really, my team wants to fight a dragon and have been disappointed at the lack of one so far in Scales of War. I see this as a fun way to give 'em what they want. ;)
I think I'm just going to have Leena tell the party that Modra is trying to sneak into the tower through the Foundry. After they kill him, they'll figure out what he was doing there before heading into the tower. I might just skip Leena entirely, but I'm not sure if she'll be important in a later adventure.
1. Instead of being Modra's henchmen, let the Shadowgoblins in the foundry be loyal to Sarshan. But Modra's snuck in to do his sabotage. He is disguised as one, after all.
I like this idea a lot, but when I first read the adventure and it said to have Modra "blend in" with the hobgoblins, I immediately furrowed my brow... Modra is small. It should be very easy to pick him out of the crowd.
But going with your idea, perhaps Modra realizes the PCs are hot on his tail and decides to use them for his own purposes. He's desperate and low on resources and henchmen and has no particular reason to believe the PCs might be sympathetic in wanting to stop Sarshan (yet). So he drops a rumor for the PCs to pick up (through the skill challenge) that he can be found at the foundry with a group of his "most loyal shadowgoblin henchmen, fanatics who will fight to the death for their master." Modra sneaks into the foundry and waits. The PCs turn up as expected and slaughter all the shadowgoblins that he couldn't kill on his own. (In this fight, one of the shadowgoblins releases the boar.) During the fight, he tries to get in a couple of good shots before "fleeing" through the secret door, hoping the PCs follow him deeper into Sarshan's operation...
The PCs will inevitably get into further fights, essentially doing Modra's work for him. He can pop up at opportune moments for dramatic or tactical effect, hindering or helping the PCs as best suits the moment. But always he spurs them on. During Last Stand, he becomes enraged at Sarshan's escape and then offers an alliance - or they fight to the death.
I think I'm definitely going to have Modra break for the secret door if things start looking grim for him in the Foundry. He's a coward and opportunist - why would he fight to death? ...Plus, I've realized that my players love pulling out all the stops to try to chase/shoot down a fleeing enemy. Why not give them more of what they want? ;)
One thing that I don't really like about these adventures is that there are a lot of throw-away encounters. The two encounters in the Umbraforge are an example of this. One is a level 5 encounter, the other is level 4. At this point, the PCs are level 5, so these should both be relatively easy. What purpose do these serve? They're not a challenge, and the party is likely to rest before they head into the Foundry. It's basically free xp. I want to make them a bit tougher, but I don't want to skew the xp total for the party.
You could always take some XP out of the Forge. Per one of my earlier posts, it actually contains more XP than it claims; more like 2200+. Cutting out four the 88 XP Mauler minions gives you an extra 352 XP to allocate between the Umbraforge encounters. They'll still be on the easy side, but hopefully less of a cakewalk.
That was my reaction when I read the Background text for Shadow Rift of Umbraforge:
In "Siege of Bordrin's Watch," the PCs discovered that dark creepers had sold arms and tactical intelligence to the orc war cheif Tusk...
Huh? My players don't suspect that at all. Sure, they learned that Tusk kept company with a Shadar-Kai witch and a Dark Creeper. But nothing in their encounters under the Monstary or under the Vents revealed an arms dealing black-market or that the Dark Creepers had shown the passages connecting the Orc Lands to those under the Monstary and Nexus. While the information was included in the DM background, there wasn't any real push to inject this information through the various encounters.
In fact, my players think they are fully done! War has been averted, the orc armies turned back -- they've been talking about checking out the Grey Redoubt, to see what Rufus Crumley is up to.
Ok, so I'll have to do a little mending to get them back on track. A few days after their return to town, after the celebration in which they and the Freeriders are predominantly featured center stage as heroes of the war, the party will have a chance to retreat and catch up with their old friends, the Freeriders. The Freeriders will be eager to hear of their adventures, and also to recount what they themselves learned:
(1) Although the orcs have been routed, they were extremely well-equiped. The Freeriders even brought back some souvenirs from the frontlines for the players to look at. These weapons are forged of "shadow steel". No idea what that stuff is, I'm just winging this. Not magical, but certainly high quality.
(2) The Freeriders also fought some strange mutated shadow creatures (early creations made by Sarshan with his Umbraforge).
(3) Finally, the Freeriders fought some Dark Creepers, who were aiding the orcs. These would be servants of Modra. The Freeriders found some maps from the Dark Creepers that showed the connections between the Orc Lands and passages to Monastary / Vent areas.
The meeting will end with both groups agreeing that they need to put their collective ears to the ground, and try to find out what's going on -- and to keep each other updated. "Let's meet back here at Mountain's Hearth in one week's time, to compare notes."
That should tie up the loose ends of what the players SHOULD know coming into this adventure. It will help keep the Freeriders prominent in the evolving campaign, and remind the players that they weren't the ONLY ones out there saving the world. Finally, it will give my players more incentive to find out who is at the bottom of this. That's something I particularly need, since as fates would have it, the Dark Creeper Iranda escaped the Boiler Room (and the dungeon), barely alive, but without my party having a chance to recover his Brass Key.
Which brings up an element that I've commented on elsewhere on these boards: I plan to re-introduce Iranda in this module, dropping him into the Clean Sheets. He is the Dark Creeper that Reniss stumbles upon in her search to find her sister. And when she describes her informant to the players, they will undoubtedly pay this Dark Creeper a visit in his private room. "We meet again, Dark One ..." That should be fun! I can just see the party marching solemnly out of the Inn afterwards, tossing the proprieter (Yerrin Dalovoy) a small pouch of coins and commenting, "Sorry about the mess."
I don't much like The Streets of Overlook skill challenge. Some skill challenges I feel good about, some make me uneasy. This one is the latter fo rme. I'm probably gonna have to flesh this out with a lot more encounters.
I do plan to have Reniss accompany the party into the Shadowfell. I like the dynamic of that.
The amount of treasure parcels seems disproportionate to the number of encounters. I suspect I'll be doubling parcel drops on some encounters, or handing out the remaining as a "reward" when the module is ended. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't care for this "DM, you figure out where all this loot goes." I prefer those details to be all sewn up for me before I run the encounter.
Had a blast with the last dungeon (especially the Nexus fight). Players have high expectations that all fights will be as epic as that one was. I may need to spice the ending up on this one. Not sure it's "dramatic" enough from my first read through.
Had a blast with the last dungeon (especially the Nexus fight). Players have high expectations that all fights will be as epic as that one was. I may need to spice the ending up on this one. Not sure it's "dramatic" enough from my first read through.
Near as I can tell, the "Nexus equivalent" fight in this adventure is the Foundry fight. But if you want a dramatic finisher - and who doesn't? - consider my idea of replacing the Specters with a Young Shadow Dragon (i.e., Young Black Dragon +1 level, or maybe even +2 levels). Dragons always make for dramatic fights. ;)
The tower itself was...appallingly hard for us. I question whether Shadar-kai are really the level that they say they are. Every single fight where we faced them was difficult verging on impossible. The chain-fighters just wrecked us; at one point, we only had our barbarian fighting four opponents, but the warlord wisely rolled a 20 on his death save, and we managed to survive in a potion-guzzling frenzy. Also, our group doesn't include a cleric or a paladin, and the wraith encounters were rather frustrating.
We just finished Den of the Destroyer, where we hit 9th level. So far, Shadow Forge was the hardest - by MILES - of the campaign for our group. I'm not really sure why.
As it stood, I had both defenders, the leader and one of the two strikers down at one point in the combat. At that point, I decided to downgrade the seething wraith somewhat, as his aura likely would have killed one of the people making death saves. There's numerous things working against the party in this fight, not the least of which is two auras (assuming the witch retreats as per the Transfer Point tactics description) stacking together to cause maximum discomfort. Additionally, the paladin in my group has little Reflex defense to speak of, so the wraiths were smacking him at will, and being weakened attacking an insubstantial creature really sucks. He would hit for 16 damage only to see it reduced to 4.
This is the closest the party has been to TPK since the Path has started. I'm not calling for easier fights; I've always maintained that fights like this bring out the best in players, knowing that every moment could be your character's last. The most memorable battles have been ones that have quite a bit of "pucker factor," where everyone intently watches the die rolls of whoever on their side is going, praying that they roll well to hit and don't get screwed on damage. I strongly urge DMs to ignore the witch retreat tactic, and have her fight to the death. One of those auras is bad enough; two nearly spelled doom for my PCs.
As it happened, the Shadar-Kai witch from the previous encounter had no chance to escape. She was the first characters to drop, peppered by arrows from two rangers (Reniss and Hooey, our party ranger), as well as spells from the party wizard. All of the Dark Creepers were up, so her "flee rule" never came into play. After she dropped, the party killed the Dark Creepers, followed by the shadow hounds -- no one fled.
In the Wraith room, things looked dire at first, with all but one party member caught in the Wraith's "seething whispers" aura. But the cleric, whose initative was right after the Seething Wraith, threw up his turn undead power -- pushing all the wraiths back, and negating the whsipers.
The players unloaded everything they had on the Seething Wraith as primary target. It didn't last 2 rounds after that. In fact, the whole fight was over in 5 rounds, with only two characters going into bloodied.
A big saving grace was the clerics radiant damage, especially when he used AoE radiant powers. It negated the regen power of the wraiths, so their hit points didn't seem all that fearsome.
Hardest part was getting my party down into Umbraforge. Even after they were approached by the Dark Creepers, and told to "stay within the borders of the camp", they wanted nothing to do with that area. I had printed up the illustrations from the module and put those in front of the party -- and I think they were a little intimidated by the scene.
I tried spotting the signature of that painting -- the one where the party is on the rise overlooking the military camp. I thing the artist's name is cropped out of the photo. I want to thank him. I think it's a beautiful piece of work, and as "intimidation factor", it worked PERFECTLY as a player hand-out.
We had no way of doing radiant damage, and it was just brutal. No one died - I'm not sure anyone even went down - but the fight took forever and ever, and we drank our way through all our healing surges, and, generally, did not have a good time.
I'm tellin' ya, though, those Shadar-kai...don't let them run into rooms and get more Shadar-kai.
When the PCs confronted Sarshan, he thanked them for killing Modra and offered them the bounty they negotiated with his agent... Myra. Surrounded by soldiers and realizing they had been manipulated from the beginning (and might be out of their league), they grudgingly accepted Sarshan's terms to work for him with the idea that they would use him to learn more about what's going on and then kill him later. They succeeded in various Bluff and Diplomacy checks and were allowed to go back to Overlook unharmed. I didn't run the scene where the earthquake destroyed the foundry. It felt tacked-on to me and I'd like to keep Umbraforge around for a while. I like it and might use it as a launching-off point for a 4e Planescape campaign...
Their first mission for Sarshan? Remove the paladins from the almshouse and take their place. Convert the building to an establishment of their choosing (within reason) and continue operating it as a front to allow weapons to keep flowing into Overlook.
More missions will follow, including assisting one Bram Ironfell in finding a lost mine...
"Any creature that enters one of the shaded squares is pushed back by the ogre mob."
Well, that's another editorial boo-boo, since there are no shaded squares on the tactical map, they've been cropped out. So here's what I did:
I surrounded the players with a real mob of NPCs. I didn't have enough ogres (I didn't have any ogres, in fact -- local hobby store was sold out). The ring of NPCs was kinda fun, and it gave it that look and feel of a school yard fight.
It made the encounter much cooler, especially when the Mob pushed and shoved characters back in to the middle.
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Oh, and here's a pic of the first round in the Dark Foundry -- I make my own "custom dungeon tiles" by taking the map from the module, blowing it up to scale, and then editing out the overlay stuff the editors put on top (monster positions, arrows, text, etc.). Players really look forward to these -- they really make the encounters more fun.
Here is Mayger Darkbrew ... the party cleric, completely surrounded by shadowgoblins. Eeeek!
This was a difficult fight, especially because it was so difficult to maneuver around the pipes without getting burned. Reniss and Hooey nearly died (I think that's a ranger class trait), but it was a fun encounter.
What was your specific process for creating it? It appears the resolution came out clearly despite being blown up.
I used cut/paste and the clone tool to remove all the things the PC's shouldn't see -- like the secret door symbol, NPC starting positions, arrows and text descriptions. This is the hardest part! You can see where my use of the clone tool got a bit sloppy in the bottom right section of the map -- I didn't quite remove all of the arrow lines that point to the metamorphosts vats (most notable where the line crosses through the wall).
I could have spent more time cleaning that up, but I usually spend just enough time to make it "not recognizable". I don't want to spend too long on something that is just being used for one fight.
Once the image was cleaned up, I increased the image size. That's pretty easy to do -- the ruler showed that the map squares were approximately 1/4", so I just increased the map size approximately 4x.
I saved the image as a JPG, quality setting 7. Certainly not magazine quality, but plenty good for the map image and how it's going to be used.
Then I printed it (9 sheets of paper), cut the flash from all but the outer edges, and taped it all together. Took about 45 minutes, start to end, but I think it's worth it -- especially since I am running this dungeon twice for two different groups of people. I've done this same thing for a few other tactical encounters. You'll probably recognize a few from this screen shot:
Other times, we either use normal dungeon tiles, or the big, wet-erase battle map that you see underneath the photoshop/printed map in the pics above.
Fire Pit: This magic fire pit is difficult terrain. Any creature that enters the fire pit takes 1d8 + 5 fire damage.
There is no fire pit in the Tactical map, so I opted to ignore this text. It doesn't seem necessary to have a fire pit in the room, since it is illuminated by "magic lanterns" (which I assume were the Grey Globes, described in all various other rooms in this adventure).
ERRATA: p.45, Features of the Area describes a "Table" and a "Fire Pit" in the Guest Quarters.
The tactical map shows a circular object, which could be either a table or a Fire Pit. I assumed this to be the Fire Pit (it's glowing yellowish at the edges) in the middle of the room. The only other objects in the room are bedrolls, no tables.
I think these were just errors, not caught during editing.
RECAP: Great Hall has table, no fire pit. Guest Quarters have fire pit, no table.
In adventure 3 they are inquiring around the city of Overlook to try and find a connection to Modra and the Lost Ones. Eventually they find themselves at the Happy Beggar which is the hidden entrance to the portal to the Shadowfell. Before heading into the basement they are questioned by a doddering fool who provides them some information about Modra. (In fact this is the head of the whole organization behind the world threatening organization that spans the whole campaign and is so far ahead im not sure they have made stats yet for him) The only reason he was gonna let the Pc's investigate the inn was because he didnt know that the Pc's had the key at all.
So to my dilemma, the PC's have already had some of the guild attacking them looking desperately for the key before this head boss found out that they had it. Even though the PC's have been flashing it around town looking for answers I tell them in no subtle way that they might want to be more discrete in their search for a very powerful thieves guild. They laughed and talked about how they could take on anyone. So then while in this building they flash this very important key (that opens the portal to his realm) to the VERY powerful leader of the organization that was in town looking for it.
So I ended the game right there about an hour and a half into the session not knowing what to do. It will prob be a TPK if i can find the stats to the NPC.
The players are saying its not fair cause they want to just be able to fight whatever and never deal with NPC stuff. And that I should just pretend that they didnt show the key to him (I told them who he was as the reason for the game stopping) I dont know if i am gonna just scrap the whole game or what but this has def stumped me.
If they don't get the message, Sarshan can have a couple dozen shadar-kai in the city within a couple hours if he needs to. Raise Dead is fairly cheap these days, and readily available in Overlook. Even if there's a TPK, it's not totally unreasonable for somebody in a position of power and authority to come across their bodies heaped in an alley, have them all raised, and then send them off in search of whoever's responsible, "and be more careful next time."
Then have the explosion that releases the fire demons by the slave pens open a small rift in the fence and creating enough of a distraction for the PC's to escape.
They would then be in this encampment without any gear and have to track that down then proceed from there in the adventure. How does that sound? Or if im really nice their gear has not been sold yet and is in an adjoining room to their cell, sans a few items the guards helped themselves to.
Perhaps even have the PC's that were being the bluntest and mouthy during the town search not make it to the slave camps and have the players make new characters. (Though im thinking not this time just to be nice, but i will be having "the talk" with my players because some of them def have the play style where they consider themselves playing against me as the DM instead of with them.)
I'd say, as above, have them raised in Overlook by people who now feel they are owed some service. Say, the dwarves in charge of the city who hired them in the Bordrin's Watch module.
So i have a prob with this adventure path,and my pcs (extremely) poor judgment.
In adventure 3 they are inquiring around the city of Overlook to try and find a connection to Modra and the Lost Ones. Eventually they find themselves at the Happy Beggar which is the hidden entrance to the portal to the Shadowfell. Before heading into the basement they are questioned by a doddering fool who provides them some information about Modra. (In fact this is the head of the whole organization behind the world threatening organization that spans the whole campaign and is so far ahead im not sure they have made stats yet for him) The only reason he was gonna let the Pc's investigate the inn was because he didnt know that the Pc's had the key at all.
So to my dilemma, the PC's have already had some of the guild attacking them looking desperately for the key before this head boss found out that they had it. Even though the PC's have been flashing it around town looking for answers I tell them in no subtle way that they might want to be more discrete in their search for a very powerful thieves guild. They laughed and talked about how they could take on anyone. So then while in this building they flash this very important key (that opens the portal to his realm) to the VERY powerful leader of the organization that was in town looking for it.
So I ended the game right there about an hour and a half into the session not knowing what to do. It will prob be a TPK if i can find the stats to the NPC.
The players are saying its not fair cause they want to just be able to fight whatever and never deal with NPC stuff. And that I should just pretend that they didnt show the key to him (I told them who he was as the reason for the game stopping) I dont know if i am gonna just scrap the whole game or what but this has def stumped me.
First, don't ever reveal plot to your players. Never, ever, ever, ever. Telling your PCs who Sarshan was makes things much more difficult. It would have been easier to salvage this if you had simply said, "Phew, ok guys, I need to call it here and think about this for a bit. I really wasn't prepared for you doing that."
That being said, I think the best approach here is to change the adventure in subtle ways.
In the original adventure, Sarshan encourages the party to find and kill Modra, expecting that they'll do so on THIS plane. In your campaign, arrange it such that Sarshan is aware (or believes) that Modra has already crossed over to the Shadowfell -- and have him tell the PCs what the key is.
"Ahh, excellent. I see you are already hot on Modra's trail. That is a key to the Shadowfell. And you must already know that the gate to which that key unlocks is underneath this very almshouse. Go then! Kill Modra. I shall have your just rewards waiting when you have finished the deed."
At the end of the Adventure, rather than having Sarshan surprised to see the party's in the Shadowfell, he is expecting them there -- and delighted that they finished the job, and stopped Modra's attempt at sabotage. And now, he is ready to give them their just rewards: "You didn't think I would allow you to live, knowing all that you know about me and my operations, did you? Guards ... kill them!"
First, don't ever reveal plot to your players. Never, ever, ever, ever. Telling your PCs who Sarshan was makes things much more difficult. It would have been easier to salvage this if you had simply said, "Phew, ok guys, I need to call it here and think about this for a bit. I really wasn't prepared for you doing that."
That being said, I think the best approach here is to change the adventure in subtle ways.
In the original adventure, Sarshan encourages the party to find and kill Modra, expecting that they'll do so on THIS plane. In your campaign, arrange it such that Sarshan is aware (or believes) that Modra has already crossed over to the Shadowfell -- and have him tell the PCs what the key is.
"Ahh, excellent. I see you are already hot on Modra's trail. That is a key to the Shadowfell. And you must already know that the gate to which that key unlocks is underneath this very almshouse. Go then! Kill Modra. I shall have your just rewards waiting when you have finished the deed."
At the end of the Adventure, rather than having Sarshan surprised to see the party's in the Shadowfell, he is expecting them there -- and delighted that they finished the job, and stopped Modra's attempt at sabotage. And now, he is ready to give them their just rewards: "You didn't think I would allow you to live, knowing all that you know about me and my operations, did you? Guards ... kill them!"
Ding Ding Ding, I think I might use a variation of this in my game. Kalaka you are wise beyond your human heritage. Even 5 min after I told them who he was, I was doing the mental equivalent of banging my head on the wall and wishing I had not said anything. It just so caught me off guard and I was already a little aggravated at how cavalier they had been in their search to begin with.
"When a creature is first bloodied, it must make a successful"
Successful what? The sentence ends there.
Yup, another adventure, another pile of errata...Luckily, my players are mostly happy just plowing through the tactical enounters and ignoring the extremely loose plot-line and railroading.