I was a little disappointed in the Scales of War AP that is now available. I think it lacks a lot of detail that would have made it much more interesting, and it kind of boils down to a rather straight-forward dungeon crawl.
Someone mentioned that maybe the Dungeon adventures will be designed to that they work easily with DDI, and that got me thinking.
Do you think the adventures published in Dungeon will be constrained by the limits of the DDI software? It makes sense in a way...if they want all of these adventures to work with the game table, then it stands to reason they're going to be designed with the limitations of the game table in mind. But I'm not sure we know enough about it to know what those limitations are.
What do the rest of you think?
Saw a comment about this buried in a thread somewhere, and now I can't find it so I thought I'd bring it to the fore.
I was a little disappointed in the Scales of War AP that is now available. I think it lacks a lot of detail that would have made it much more interesting, and it kind of boils down to a rather straight-forward dungeon crawl.
Someone mentioned that maybe the Dungeon adventures will be designed to that they work easily with DDI, and that got me thinking.
Do you think the adventures published in Dungeon will be constrained by the limits of the DDI software? It makes sense in a way...if they want all of these adventures to work with the game table, then it stands to reason they're going to be designed with the limitations of the game table in mind. But I'm not sure we know enough about it to know what those limitations are.
What do the rest of you think?
HUh???????????
Have you really been reading about the Game Table?
The GameTable will be used To Display Maps and Place Virtual Minis on and Move around. Display Dice Rolls and Communicate with Players around the world.
What else do you think it suspose to do?
We're talking about DDI as a whole and pre-made, published adventures. Safe to say, you can ignore the previous reply.
Think about it.
rooster
Anyone else?
We're talking about DDI as a whole and pre-made, published adventures. Safe to say, you can ignore the previous reply.
Think about it.
Err the game table has no contrasts, you can use it to play Go, Chess, Checkers or any other RPG you want it to.
While there are plans to have the AP available to DMs to use, the DMs can alter and change it any way they so desire. Once complete you can import the map and play tic-tac-toe on the map.
When I first got wind of the hole VTT and the taking away of Dungeon from Paizo, I hoped that they would integrate the adventures in Dungeon into the table top so that subscribers wouldn't even have to make the maps and would have all the stuff preloaded. That got my hopes up unfortunately as that would be a real appeal to me for the whole D&DI price point issue.
rooster
Rooster:
Yeah, I think there is appeal to that, but it gets to my point as well. If they're going to make the adventure available for use with DDI (the game table, for example) so that you can just take it and run with it, it stands to reason that decision is going to influence design philosophy. Not necessarily good or bad, but it'll be different.
Maybe that's one reason the Scales of War lacks a lot of surrounding detail and is largely restricted in terms of what the PCs are going to do (i.e. follow the adventure as written).
In PnP, if you have a lot of background and surrounding details, the PCs may decide to go off on a lark into some nearby forest of whatever. That's easy to deal with.
With adventures created specifically with DDI in mind, it will be impossible to prepare maps, minis, etc. for all of the possibilities if you give the PCs too much latitude in what they want to do, so it isn't beyond reason that adventures may be lacking in some detail as both 1) not needed; and 2) not desired because you don't want the PCs doing that stuff to begin with (at least it seems this will be hard to deal with in DDI based on what we know now; maybe they'll add some functionality to try to bridge the gap).
The first Scales of War installment is a little light on depth of detail, and more of a sequential set of encounters, most of which near the end is a dungeon crawl. This is much more easily managed if you want to have a pre-made product that someone can purchase as a mini-transaction (or even a regular transaction) and drop into DDI.
So I'm wondering to what extent these considerations might influence how adventures are designed.
Err the game table has no contrasts, you can use it to play Go, Chess, Checkers or any other RPG you want it to.
While there are plans to have the AP available to DMs to use, the DMs can alter and change it any way they so desire. Once complete you can import the map and play tic-tac-toe on the map.
Kentinal:
I elaborated in my post above. Given what I say there, I'm curious as to your thoughts.
Anyone else?
We're talking about DDI as a whole and pre-made, published adventures. Safe to say, you can ignore the previous reply.
Think about it.
OK Lets cover the Whole DDI Gambit Bit by Bit.
Character Visualizer: We get Artwork Of NPCs already. Although not enough.
Character Builder: Stats for NPCs. I believe we already get these
At Least Major NPCs...not the entire population of a city..Hobo a, Hobo b, Kid a, Kid c, Serving Wench z, etc etc etc.
Gametable: Maps..we get these already but once the Gametable comes available, there should be Digital Maps provided on which digital games are played. Every adventure should include a GameTable Map. So that DMs could load the adventure and Run the Adventure without having to map the Encounters out. Remember one of the excusses for going DDi was to save DMs Game time prep and Work.
Currently the Maps are a little disappointing and not very useful digitally or printed..no available scaled maps for real tabletop play. None compatable with Game Table
Dungeon Builder: No Need for tie in.....should be Mapped out already
Compendium..What adventure tie in do you need?
As I see it Only the Gametable will have an adventure tie in or need to have a tie in directly. Outside of Maps theres no constraints on the actual adventures. Unless there is a size limitation on the Gametable that we are aware of as of yet. Say a 100 x 500 square area or a mere 25 x 25 square area. If so then all Adventures will be constrained by that limitation. All Maps will have to fit in those limitations. Otherwise a Map thats 1,000,000 by 1,000,000 Squares could be Made. I think the True limitation itself will be on the printed Maps. Imagine the quality of a Map that size printed on a sheet 8" x 11". I think that would cause a big stink in itself.
So Unless they Start selling or providing Digital Bonus packages separate from the Dungeon Adventures theres no tie ins or constaints.
I can see them trying to sell Portraits of NPSc, Stat Cards, Digital Maps, Map Accessories
Rooster:
Yeah, I think there is appeal to that, but it gets to my point as well. If they're going to make the adventure available for use with DDI (the game table, for example) so that you can just take it and run with it, it stands to reason that decision is going to influence design philosophy. Not necessarily good or bad, but it'll be different.
Maybe that's one reason the Scales of War lacks a lot of surrounding detail and is largely restricted in terms of what the PCs are going to do (i.e. follow the adventure as written).
In PnP, if you have a lot of background and surrounding details, the PCs may decide to go off on a lark into some nearby forest of whatever. That's easy to deal with.
With adventures created specifically with DDI in mind, it will be impossible to prepare maps, minis, etc. for all of the possibilities if you give the PCs too much latitude in what they want to do, so it isn't beyond reason that adventures may be lacking in some detail as both 1) not needed; and 2) not desired because you don't want the PCs doing that stuff to begin with (at least it seems this will be hard to deal with in DDI based on what we know now; maybe they'll add some functionality to try to bridge the gap).
The first Scales of War installment is a little light on depth of detail, and more of a sequential set of encounters, most of which near the end is a dungeon crawl. This is much more easily managed if you want to have a pre-made product that someone can purchase as a mini-transaction (or even a regular transaction) and drop into DDI.
So I'm wondering to what extent these considerations might influence how adventures are designed.
These are good points. An old dictum, whose author I can't remember, is "the medium determines the message." Certainly adventures may be impacted if the game table is seen as being able to run any and all elements of each adventure. Personally I'm happy to just have maps imported and battle grids from the adventure mixed in with prebuilt NPCs and monsters, but others might want more. I would hope the creativity of adventures doesn't suffer due to game table issues, but we'll see.
I guess we need a game table before we can worry too much about that though
rooster
Gametable: Maps..we get these already but once the Gametable comes available, there should be Digital Maps provided on which digital games are played. Every adventure should include a GameTable Map. So that DMs could load the adventure and Run the Adventure without having to map the Encounters out. Remember one of the excusses for going DDi was to save DMs Game time prep and Work.
Right. I agree with this.
But what I'm wondering is whether maybe published adventures in Dungeon will be light on details of the surrounding countryside, and that sort of thing, so as to discourage the DM and PCs from heading off in some unexpected direction, because that makes it hard to use the game table. If the published adventure doesn't already have maps and the like for these areas, the DM would need to have some or somehow make them on the fly to continue with the game table. So there seems to be a vested interest in not putting in detail about this other stuff.
For example:
Say I'm playing an adventure where we're supposed to explore an abandoned temple. But in the text of the adventure there is some detail and history about this dark and dangerous wood north of town. Has nothing to do with the adventure, but it fleshes out the area, provides a history, gives more character to the locale, etc.
In pen and paper, if the PCs hear about the forest and decide "The temple can wait a bit, let's check this place out" I can deal with that pretty easily, even if there are no maps etc. provided in the published adventure.
In DDI if the PCs do that, I've got a problem unless there is some way to create maps on the fly as encounters arise.
So this is my question (sorry if it wasn't clear enough at the outset): isn't it reasonable for Dungeon adventures that are designed to work with DDI to not even both mentioning the dark forest north of town, because you don't want the PCs traipsing off in that direction and causing the DM trouble for lack of electronic maps and the like that you need for DDI?
I guess we need a game table before we can worry too much about that though
rooster
LOL. True.
I've used vitual game tables before. If the PCs got away from what I had planned, it was a pain. That was just a limitation that came with using them. But the published adventures weren't written with game tables in mind, so they didn't actually design the adventures to these limitations. If you design adventures with these limitations in mind, it seems to me you're going to get a bit less detail and a bit more railroading. I'm not saying it won't be fun, but I think that's a reality that bears some consideration. The game becomes less of "you can do whatever you want" and more of "well, guys, you really should stay within the written material." That can be cool, but it's quite different from how I usually play, which is where the PCs dictate the direction as their logic or whim guides them.
In DDI if the PCs do that, I've got a problem unless there is some way to create maps on the fly as encounters arise.
The DM has the ability to freehand a map as needed.
I beleive this can be done with a drawing tool OR with tiles, or a combination of both.
rooster
The DM has the ability to freehand a map as needed.
I beleive this can be done with a drawing tool OR with tiles, or a combination of both.
Well that will certainly help, then.
I'm just a little leery of things like adventures being optimized to work best in an electronic medium like the game table, and maybe not having the depth that you might have seen in previous publications.
It's speculation at this point, but I'm glad to hear everyone else's thoughts.
Hopefully there'll be an option at least to drop a blank squared off grid that we can briefly doctor up certain squares to designate special terrain features, etc. That'd would work for me. I'm not good at making digital maps so some of my online games have a blank grid and I say "This is a forest, here's a big pit, etc."
rooster
What software do you use?
I've used OpenRPG. It was cool, though we had occasional issues getting everyone connected.
SIDETRACKS..listed with limited information now?
I believe your trying to think into this too much.
Players Will always throw a Dm a Curveball. People always complain about a DM Railroading.
DM: " The Castle is North of Town."
Player A: "Ok we go South."
Dm: "Ah hum Ah..theres a Swamp that Way."
Players..."Cool lets go."
Player A:" How Big is it?"
Dm:" Hummmmmmmm..Big, really Big."
Player B:" What Monsters live in there?"
Dm" Ahhhhh..big a and scary ones?"
Player C:" Any Cities that direction?"
DM:" A..hum..There are some.."
Player A:" Any Ruins?"
DM: "Rumors of some."
Player B:" Do we need to hire a Guide?"
DM:"YEa I would suggest it since none of you Knows the area at all."
DM: "Lets all take a game break and drinks some beer and eat some pizza while I roll up some stuff."
Players:"cool"
Fast Forward 2 Hours.
Dm:" Where do you want to go to hire a Guide?"
Players: " to the Castle north of Town."
DM Screaming and Pulling Hair Out
Players Laughing loudly and drinking beer
I believe your trying to think into this too much.
Maybe you're right. I just have a very open DM style in terms of where the players want to go. And when I looked at the Scales of War AP, I thought it was a bit sparse and seemed intent on keeping the PCs on the straight and narrow. Then I read a comment by someone speculating whether this had anything to do with making it easier for DDI, and I went from there....
rooster
Maybe you're right. I just have a very open DM style in terms of where the players want to go. And when I looked at the Scales of War AP, I thought it was a bit sparse and seemed intent on keeping the PCs on the straight and narrow. Then I read a comment by someone speculating whether this had anything to do with making it easier for DDI, and I went from there....
I think one of the reasons that the Adventures are lacking in too much details is because of Economics..WOTC pays by the Word Count remember. Plus they Cap the Size of Contributions.
I think the First thing they should have Done is Provide a Campaign setting for the Area the Adventures would be set in. Although the general Idea is to keep them generic enough so anyone can adapt them into a setting anywhere any time.
Hopefully there'll be an option at least to drop a blank squared off grid that we can briefly doctor up certain squares to designate special terrain features, etc. That'd would work for me. I'm not good at making digital maps so some of my online games have a blank grid and I say "This is a forest, here's a big pit, etc."
rooster
I know that if you import an image/map you can drop a grid onto that, so it shouldn't be a stretch to create a "blank map" and drop a grid when the players toss you a curveball.
rooster