June 10th DUN: Heart of the Forbidden Forge
June 17th DUN: Garaitha's Anvil
Where is my third adventure?
Let alone the possible 4th or 5th one that you promised when I signed up?
"Dungeon magazine provides Dungeon Masters with 3-5 new adventures every month"
Meet you minimum targets at least.
WotC is too busy lying to provide a conversion to Stormreach or Elder Evils.
WotC is too busy lying to provide VTT or Character Visualizer.
Luckily, WotC is not too busy lying to increase the price of D&Di.
At least they're giving D&Di customers "extra content" of a book that is going to come out anyway?
At least they're giving D&Di customers "extra content" of a book that is going to come out anyway?
Right I'd rather get what I am meant to be paying for than, stuff from a book that should be paid for buy people buying the book.
I don't want extra content I want the actual content they should already be providing.
Dungeon won't be just adventures anymore, rather it'll focus on DM interests (and Dragon will focus on player interests). The Scales of War have been decidedly unbalanced ;). A better balance of content between the mags has been needed for a while I think.
Dungeon has been pretty slim pickin'. I think there's hope though; check out this post. I'm sure this has been mentioned elsewhere (before now) but it's the first I've heard of it; so I'm hopeful.
IOW, you buy into the positive spin.
Dungeon won't be just adventures anymore, rather it'll focus on DM interests (and Dragon will focus on player interests). The Scales of War have been decidedly unbalanced ;). A better balance of content between the mags has been needed for a while I think.
Better balance? That's meaningless marketing catch-phrasing. Dungeon has always been about providing adventures. 'Balance' has nothing to do with it, nor does it have to do with the announced change. It's about lightening their workload and giving us less, without appearing to give us less. That's it.
Will this result in an actual drop in content? Will we really be getting less? I don't know. I suspect we'll still be seeing at least two adventures a month, a few columns, with the addition of more focused DM content. If nothing else, it'll 'look' more substantive ;). We won't necessarily be seeing more content but there's nothing to indicate (at this point at least) that they will be delivering less. I just don't get the impression that they're trying to pull the wool over our eyes.
My focus is on Dragon but since I can't get it without Dungeon, I'm not actually loosing anything by a shift in focus between the mags. I agree with the sentiments of DMaple (the OP) but I choose a more positive spin; no harm in that, is there?
I suspect we'll still be seeing at least two adventures a month
At least two? They sold it on providing 3 to 5 adventures a month. I'm fine with DM stuff being shifted to Dungeon, but not at the loss of it's core role providing original adventures.
). I'd guess we'll see three adventures a month (at most), maybe a Side Trek or two (if we're really lucky). I'd love to see more of course, I'm just not convinced it'll happen.
My focus is on Dragon but if they re-organize, at least I'll be getting some utility out of the Dungeon-side. Better than nothing, I guess. Sorry, I'm being positive again :P.
I'm surprised they haven't tried to pass off an encounter or two "Preview" for an upcoming adventure module as new Dungeon content... HA!
Don't give them any ideas.
This may be a case of the shift in focus of the two mags, and hopefully we have nothing to worry about. But if this issue persists for more than a couple of issues, the concern is worth some attention. I see people on these boards who very passionately defend the price of the DDI subscription because they love the magazines. If the quality of the magazines drops and doesn't bounce back after the shift of focus, WotC will lose those proponents. That would be a shame.
Myself, I would like to see 1 SoW, 1 heroic, 1 paragon, and 1 epic full length adventure per month. Sure, my players aren't at epic tier, yet, but they'll get there eventually, and I'd like my pick of material to adapt.
I'd also like to see 1-3 Dungeon Delve style mini-adventures each month. These I most definitely *do* use with little or no modification. They're great to drop into a longer adventure, use as side treks, run for convention-style play (I host a yearly RPG party with three 4-hour sessions), stall for time when the PCs suddenly ditch the plot in favor of an accidental red herring, or just give me a ready-made adventure when I don't have time to plan for the session.
I would say July / August are the best candidates to have five adventures.
I don't think they have the savvy to scheme like that (holding off on the "good content" until after they've raised the price).
I'd say that they're probably going to keep at the 2 adventure standard they've now set (below their actual 3-5 standard) and fill up dungeon with a bunch of stuff that used to be in Dragon.
Then they'll use the PHB3 previews to fill page content in dragon.
My opinion is that they're actually going to raise the price and decrease content.
But, honestly, I hope you ARE right. If they raise the price and then increase the content, why, that'd not be bad at all.
I'd say that they're probably going to keep at the 2 adventure standard they've now set (below their actual 3-5 standard) and fill up dungeon with a bunch of stuff that used to be in Dragon.
Then they'll use the PHB3 previews to fill page content in dragon.
Except PHB3 previews aren't going to be Dragon content. As I understand it WotC simply intends to make the PHB3 stuff just part of the monthly compendium update. They might decide to do Design & Development articles on the previews in Dragon, but the actual previews aren't supposed to be part of the monthly page count.
Also, while the May issue of Dungeon was the shortest yet (79 pages), the June issue will be 98+ ( exact count dependent on how the web-columns get formated in the compiled PDF). So while we only got two adventures this month those the amount of TOTAL material provided looks to be close to average (112 pages).
Furthermore, while it might be nice to see more adventures each month, I personally am more concerned with the overall page count. WotC may not be meeting the originally advertised 3-5 adventures per month, but they are more than delivering on the consistently advertised 120+ pages per month (187 pages of Dragon+Dungeon content on average each month as of May; or about 179 discounting covers, table of contents, and editorials). Given that they're consistently providing me with around 150% of the advertised page count I'm willing to cut them a little slack on the number of adventures.
I'd also like to see 1-3 Dungeon Delve style mini-adventures each month. These I most definitely *do* use with little or no modification. They're great to drop into a longer adventure, use as side treks, run for convention-style play (I host a yearly RPG party with three 4-hour sessions), stall for time when the PCs suddenly ditch the plot in favor of an accidental red herring, or just give me a ready-made adventure when I don't have time to plan for the session.
I would love to see delves added to dungeon content, in addition to or even in place of true adventures. They're substantially more useful to me than fully plotted adventures. An adventure may require significant modification to conform to any given setting (official or homebrew) and the pacing may not be appropriate for all groups, but a delve can often be plopped into any campaign and tailored to group tastes with little effort, even on short notice.
I can address concerns about the number of adventures in Dungeon magazine. Back in the old days, when Dungeon was a bimonthly magazine, it would publish 4-6 adventures per issue (on average). Now that it's a monthly publication, we're providing 2-3 adventures per issue (on average). Not really a change from the formula. However, we prefer to publish shorter adventures. As it happens, we have a bunch of longer adventures working their way through the system right now, including various installments of the Scales of War Adventure Path. In my perfect world, an issue of Dungeon would contain one meaty adventure and at least two shorter adventures, but it's sometimes a struggle to get good short adventures (as every editor of Dungeon magazine, past and present, will tell you).
Each issue of Dungeon contains roughly 40k words of adventure content, regardless of the number of adventures in the issue, and that's remained consistent month to month. Word count is a more accurate bellwether than page count, since art and white space can make an issue seem fatter than it really is. As Dungeon begins to absorb some of Dragon's DM-focused article content (part of the plan to make Dungeon the DM's mag and Dragon the player's mag), the word count for adventures will remain ~40k words. We are not reducing the amount of adventure content. The addition of DM-focused articles from Dragon magazine just means Dungeon will be getting a bit heftier.
We have a bunch of shorter adventures planned for future issues, including several Dungeon Delve-style adventures designed for one or two sessions of play. We're also looking for more short adventure proposals and Side Treks, so if you have some cool ideas, please send them our way!
Chris
When one goes to subscribe to D&Di (that is, TODAY...just as I type this post), and then clicks on what they get, they see:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/magazines
Dungeon magazine provides Dungeon Masters with 3-5 new adventures every month—something for each tier of play (heroic, paragon, and epic)—so, you'll always have a game that’s ready to run. Whether you run those adventures, or play your own homebrewed adventures and campaigns, Dungeon offers a continuous source of articles, features, hints, and tips, to help make the job of DMing even easier.
IS THIS TRUE OR IS IT BLATANTLY FALSE?
Maybe a correction is in order since people are paying for 3-5 but not getting 3-5?
You wouldn't want to be accused of false advertising.
This seems to have NOTHING to do with the "old days" but everything to do with "the promises you are making on this day, today, June 30th, 2009".
You are STILL making a promise that has been broken for several of the months that it has been posted.
Please don't patronize your customers by stating that 3-5 "wasn't what you really meant" or "isn't our current goal" because it is QUITE CLEARLY written on the page that customers go to immediately before purchasing your product.
It is even elaborated upon in that there are always (supposedly) at least an adventure for each tier.
You are quite clear.
You are quite clearly lying.
In print.
Consistently.
Embarrasingly.
Care to clarify why this statement was made then (or what was meant by it)?
When one goes to subscribe to D&Di (that is, TODAY...just as I type this post), and then clicks on what they get, they see:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/magazines
Dungeon magazine provides Dungeon Masters with 3-5 new adventures every month—something for each tier of play (heroic, paragon, and epic)—so, you'll always have a game that’s ready to run. Whether you run those adventures, or play your own homebrewed adventures and campaigns, Dungeon offers a continuous source of articles, features, hints, and tips, to help make the job of DMing even easier.
IS THIS TRUE OR IS IT BLATANTLY FALSE?
Maybe a correction is in order since people are paying for 3-5 but not getting 3-5?
You wouldn't want to be accused of false advertising.
This seems to have NOTHING to do with the "old days" but everything to do with "the promises you are making on this day, today, June 30th, 2009".
Hey Aberzanzorax,
Thanks for highlighting the incorrect text. An embarrassing mistake on our part. We've fixed it to say 2-3 adventures per month.
Chris
Hey Aberzanzorax,
Thanks for highlighting the incorrect text. An embarrassing mistake on our part. We've fixed it to say 2-3 adventures per month.
Chris
Dude, Aberzanzorax, see what happens when you tap the glass?
Can someone (Ideally Mr. Chris Perkins) clarify how 2-3 adventures per month could possibly result in "something for each tier of play (heroic, paragon, and epic)"?
I mean, sure, if there are three....but if there are two adventures and three tiers, how does that add up to "something for each tier of play"?
Nice try, but the "erroneous text" is really "an old promise that we're not meeting so we better change it right now". You need to change the rest to be complete, and the earlier complaints (see the OP of this thread, who actually brought up the same darn thing I did, but without a link) are still valid.
In my opinion, I don't see how you can possibly claim "something for each tier of play" with two adventures. Basic math seems to disagree here.
I'm glad it is at least changed so that purchasers are not as mislead, but still, more change is necessary, and it's pretty darn clear that this was there for a long time as more than just a mistake, let's be honest about this here.
The "something for each tier of play" alone belies the intent to release, at minimum, three adventures.
I guess this leaves me somewhat mollified in that a change toward the direction of honesty has been made, but at the same time, I feel somewhat disgusted that the remainder, well, remains, and the very clear intent of the prior message (i.e. not a typo as seems to be hinted at) seems to be ignored in an attempt to sweep yet another "oops, we promised X, but we'll deliver X minus y" under the rug.
It is very clear to me that this was not "an embarrasing mistake" but rather another scaling back from prior promises.
Embarassing yes. Mistake? Only in the sense that you promised purchasers more than you ended up delivering.
Re-read the OP. How on earth was this message not discovered by someone at WotC earlier than my post? The OP (DMaple) and myself, and others have posted on this same issue multiple times.
Goodness.
In conclusion: thanks for somewhat fixing it, but you need to fix more, and it seems like a HUGE cop out to say it was an "embarrasing mistake". It was put there quite intentionally long ago. The expectation was quite clearly a minimum of one adventure per tier, with perhaps more...hence the promise of "something for each tier of play" (again). To say now that it was originally intended to be any number less than three is dishonest, and disrespectful to subscribers of D&Di and D&D fans as a whole.
I almost applauded your action, I wanted to applaud your action (it was as though WotC was "stepping up" for once), but it's spoiled with the spin of "an embarrasing mistake".
It was there. It was there for months. It was mentioned in numerous threads on these forums, some of which have been responded to by WotC representatives. The very wording still points at the intent, so much so that the current wording is contradictory. Treat your customers with more respect, please.
The current wording, so that this makes sense should they do the right thing and edit it further:
Dungeon magazine provides Dungeon Masters with 2-3 new adventures every month—something for each tier of play (heroic, paragon, and epic)—so, you'll always have a game that’s ready to run. Whether you run those adventures, or play your own homebrewed adventures and campaigns, Dungeon offers a continuous source of articles, features, hints, and tips, to help make the job of DMing even easier.
Changing the text now doesn't address the broken promises of the past.
It just looks like someone covering their behind.
If I had more knowledge of the law, I'd be tempted to talk to a lawyer about this becuase this is blatant.
The rest of the forums should know about this crud.
If I had more knowledge of the law, I'd be tempted to talk to a lawyer about this becuase this is blatant.
Go ahead. Talk to a lawyer. You know what would happen? At best WotC would be forced to change their ads. Oh wait, they did that.
Can someone (Ideally Mr. Chris Perkins) clarify how 2-3 adventures per month could possibly result in "something for each tier of play (heroic, paragon, and epic)"?
I mean, sure, if there are three....but if there are two adventures and three tiers, how does that add up to "something for each tier of play"?
It doesn't explicitly say that are going to be three tiers of adventures EVERY SINGLE MONTH. It says that adventures will cover those tiers, which they do.
a) The amount of adventure content currently supplied in Dungeon mag
b) The wording of the advertisments for said content.
However i feel that your oppinions are being voiced in the wrong place, and that it was lucky Chris P came across the post and decided to answer.
I think that if this is something that is really really bothering people that they should get in touch with WotC direct, i would guess through customer service.
Now that you have used the forums to find like minded people, you need to follow it through as there are proper methods to make WotC know you are not pleased.
Hey Aberzanzorax,
Thanks for highlighting the incorrect text. An embarrassing mistake on our part. We've fixed it to say 2-3 adventures per month.
Chris
Well, I expected WotC to change or address the adventure count in Dungeon to match the advertised number... I didn't expect them to change the advertised number of adventures! HA!
Smooth. I guess Chris Perkins is right though. It's the word count that matters and if they sustain that 40k word count (either one big and two small adventures or two big ones) while having this new additional content they are touting, that's fine by me.
If you aren't playing the Adventure Path, that's one adventure that isn't much use. Then if the only other adventure in the issue is of a different tier (or even five or more level different) than your adventuring party that's the whole issue of little use.
If they could just squeeze a delve or a side trek (of a different level, than the two adventures), into each issue that would certainly help.
While word count matters, so long as you are hitting that target then utility is just as important. When the print Dungeon did mega-adventures (which lead to less adventures in the issue) while they were popular with some people, they were also criticized because some people could find nothing off use in that issue.
If you aren't playing the Adventure Path, that's one adventure that isn't much use. Then if the only other adventure in the issue is of a different tier (or even five or more level different) than your adventuring party that's the whole issue of little use.
If they could just squeeze a delve or a side trek (of a different level, than the two adventures), into each issue that would certainly help.
We have some shorter adventures making their way through the system toward publication. Speaking of tiers, we know that most groups are still in the heroic tier, so folks can expect more heroic tier support in the coming months.
I would also like to point out that you don't need to run the Scales of War adventures as a series. Most of them stand well enough on their own, with very little modification, which makes them useful to DMs running their own campaigns. Alliance at Nefelus is a great example of an adventure that can be easily dropped into any paragon-tier campaign.
Well, I expected WotC to change or address the adventure count in Dungeon to match the advertised number... I didn't expect them to change the advertised number of adventures! HA!
I guess Chris Perkins is right though. It's the word count that matters and if they sustain that 40k word count (either one big and two small adventures or two big ones) while having this new additional content they are touting, that's fine by me.
A/x and DMaple made a good point about false advertising. We shouldn't be telling people to expect 3-5 adventures and then releasing issues with 2 adventures in them, so the text was changed to reflect the current reality.
In my perfect world, an issue of Dungeon would contain one meaty adventure and at least two shorter adventures, but it's sometimes a struggle to get good short adventures (as every editor of Dungeon magazine, past and present, will tell you).
Have you considered releasing updated submissions guidelines, and soliciting queries from both new writers and folks already freelancing? Because at the moment, unlike in the past, both e-zines seem like a closed shop, with everything being produced in-house or by a very limited set of freelancers, rather than being open to queries. If content is a problem, that's one way to fix it, and certainly makes the magazines less of a black box.
People have been asking for updated guidelines for a long time now.
Dungeon and Dragon gets roughly 50 submissions a week, and anyone can send us a pitch. Our small staff plumbs the digital "submission pile" for gems constantly. (Feel free to include multiple article/adventure pitches in a single email submission, BTW.) We're always looking for freelance writers who have tons of great ideas, a passion for the game, and a professional attitude. If you're not much of a writer but have thoughts on what articles you'd like to see in the magazines, feel free to post those ideas in the forums. The editors as well as many of our freelancers frequent the Dragon and Dungeon forums.
Not everything that gets published in the magazines comes from the "submission pile." The editors will assign articles and adventures to reliable freelancers with whom they've developed a professional rapport. (This is true for the Scales of War Adventure Path, for example.) However, these freelancers are also encouraged to send us ideas of their own.
The submission guidelines on the D&D main page are current, with the exception of the tactical encounter format, which we need to update (it's on Chris Youngs' lengthy "to do" list). You don't need the tactical encounter format when you make your initial adventure pitch. If you pitch an adventure and we like it, we'll provide you with our most current tactical encounter template, so it's not a big deal.
Thank you for the reply Chris, it's appreciated.
*nod* Admittedly I haven't looked at the guidelines in over a year, perhaps largely because when the magazines first transitioned to e-zines I pitched a lot of ideas and promptly never heard a thing about them. And the one thing left over from the Paizo slush pile (a wandering monster article on the gacholoth) that I was specifically asked to submit, and promised a response after review, I never got that promised reply, nor any response to two followup emails asking about its status. Eventually I just gave up for lack of response at the time. You go from a having a bunch of stuff published in the final year of the print version of both magazines, to getting what felt like a cold shoulder, it's hard to keep up the interest in coming up with ideas to submit to the e-zines, when other places have much better feedback.
I think it would serve you guys well to at the very least give form rejection emails to anyone that waits past 60 days. I was used to feedback even on rejections back when the magazines were in print, and that seems to have vanished now (not sure if it's a staffing issue, or if the queries now are somehow higher than when the 'zines were in print, etc).
I'll pitch something in the next week or so, since my slate only has one project on it at the moment. We'll see I suppose (or not after 60 days afterwards I guess).
I would also like to point out that you don't need to run the Scales of War adventures as a series. Most of them stand well enough on their own, with very little modification, which makes them useful to DMs running their own campaigns. Alliance at Nefelus is a great example of an adventure that can be easily dropped into any paragon-tier campaign.
I would like to second this statement, many times I have used adventure path encounters from Dungeon (my in-hand magazine subscription goes back to 2003) for my own campaign with little more than a location change and changing the main villian/threat/badguy group over to my personal threat. But I do miss having more than 2 adventures to chose from, one big (usually the adventure path) and two "quickies" is more like it.
Having been a writer for quite some time, I realize that the slush pile most publications see is, in a word, huge, and it's easiest to just sweep rejected queries under the rug and move on to the next one, but it's also a cause of frustration with people trying to submit. Knowing that whoever is reviewing the submissions is swamped, there's always the thought in the back of your mind that maybe they simply haven't gotten to yours on time for some reason. I wouldn't expect detailed feedback on why a query was rejected, as this is increasing rare as the submission count goes up, but some sort of acknowledgment that your idea is not what they're looking for would be greatly appreciated, especially by the more professional of your prospective writers.
First, I want to thank Christopher Perkins for tending to these comments some are pretty harsh and you have been helpful.
Second, I DM for my a small group of friends and paid for an annual subscription to DDI around Jun 25. And I specifically remember being excited about the 3-5 adventures because I subscribed purely for the Character Builder and other useful DM tools (Dungeon, encounter tool, compendium). I'm pretty frustrated to find out that the subscription I signed up for about 2 weeks ago is already significantly different than I thought it would be. I also thought the reaction was quite poor by WotC. Heres why:
-Fixing the problem has not been ammending the text in the advertisement.
-Fixing the problem would either fulfilling the stated 3-5 adventures or producing an equally useful amount of material to DMs.
-Moving Dragon material to Dungeon does not qualify as fixing the problem.