Adventurer's Vault 2: AV2 Wondrous Lair Items
In today’s Adventurer's Vault 2 preview, we look at new wondrous items to help improve your lair.... We help set you up with a gorgeous lair. Do you have a lair? We have a lair!
Talk about this Excerpt here.
Also am I the only one who was thinking of using these in an Alice in Wonderland setting?
Is it just me, or does buying these items totally throw off the "wealth and items are a function of your overall power and versatility in overcoming hostiles" concept unless given out by DM fiat, outside of the normal power curve?
no it is only useless items if the DM never lets you use them... if the game never involves things at your BoO(Base of Operation) then yes, but if you are setting up a fort inbetween the army of orcs and the town, then they could still be good.
I was hopeing for a thrown based on the chairs from stargate atlantis... scry rit for free within your base, and fire ballista like things and corrdnate troops..
So will we have lairs in AV2?
I'd be glad.
Couldn't resist. :D
I definitely like what I'm looking at.
Breaking down barriers all across Dungeons & Dragons.
Property: While you sit on the throne, when a creature you can see attempts to deceive, disobey, or betray you, it is stunned (save ends). All creatures you can see take a –3 penalty to attack rolls that target your Will.
The above is provided with absolutely no qualifications.
So, the party bursts into the room with the big bad sitting on his throne. He simply says, 'I order you to take no actions.' If they try to do anything, they are stunned, during which time he can give another instruction.
Or, he can simply give an impossible instruction for an automatic stunned, save ends, as a free action, at will, sight range. Don't try to sneak in either or be disguised to get the drop on him, you'll be autostunned if he sees you attempting to deceive.
BTW, it's a Level 12 item, and it's an excerpt, which means it survived Wizards exhaustive playtest already LOL.
DUMBEST ITEM EVVVVEEEEERRRR.
FAIL.
Cheers,
Brayden Glad
I guess putitng a solo in that chair would make solo monster's dangerous ;)
I mean, basically they're saying that, should Orcus pay you a visit, you can swivel around on the throne, stroking a white cat and say: Hey, Orcus, I command you to hand over your rod of pure awesome!
Orcus: Shove it down your pie hole! *stunned*
Now, I'm pretty sure that's not cricket.
Well, can't wait to see what other glorious items I'm spending my £££ on.
:D
Agreed, though - that throne is ridiculous. As an NPC-only item it's just fine - it would be cool to find a villain sitting on one of these when you reach his throne room. But as something PCs can get - especially as low as level 12 - it's absurd. An automatic lie detector is broken enough by itself; the "disobey" phrasing is so awful I can't find words for it; and the other effects are just cheesy topping.
Agreed, though - that throne is ridiculous. As an NPC-only item it's just fine - it would be cool to find a villain sitting on one of these when you reach his throne room. But as something PCs can get - especially as low as level 12 - it's absurd. An automatic lie detector is broken enough by itself; the "disobey" phrasing is so awful I can't find words for it; and the other effects are just cheesy topping.
I think you are blowing this out of proportion...it is good, but limited...maybe it should be higher level, but I think it is ok.
I think you are blowing this out of proportion...it is good, but limited...maybe it should be higher level, but I think it is ok.
?? I don't get the logic.
It may as well have been written as:
Property: (free action) Target a creature within line of sight. At the beginning of that creature's turn it is stunned (save ends).
Combine it with scrying rituals and you're halfway to being Pun-Pun.
"Hey guys! Let's go kill Orcus! I'll stay at home, sit on the throne, scry him, and order him to die every every round, and you go kill him while he's stunned from disobeying!"
A range would be the first step to fixing it; removing the word "disobey" would be a second; limiting the stun effect to "once per encounter" would be a third.
?? I don't get the logic.
no you don't
It may as well have been written as:
Property: (free action) Target a creature within line of sight. At the beginning of that creature's turn it is stunned (save ends).
except for the part where it says that it is only if someone attempts to decive, disobey, or betray you...
Property: While you sit on the throne, when a creature you can see attempts to deceive, disobey, or betray you, it is stunned (save ends). All creatures you can see take a –3 penalty to attack rolls that target your Will.
can someone show me the rules on disobeying please...
Combine it with scrying rituals and you're halfway to being Pun-Pun.
yes becuse near infinit stats, attack, and any power in the book is so close...oh wait no...
"Hey guys! Let's go kill Orcus! I'll stay at home, sit on the throne, scry him, and order him to die every every round, and you go kill him while he's stunned from disobeying!"
sorry no one can follow the order die...so it would not work...atleast not in a game with a human DM (Not a good DM just one that uses anythiong but 1 and 9 to make descions...)
A range would be the first step to fixing it;
I think all lair items should only work inside a lair...so I will agree there...
removing the word "disobey" would be a second;
I disagree I like the evil overlord "if you don't do what I want I will make you pay" mentality of it...
limiting the stun effect to "once per encounter" would be a third.
no, I think this idea is much more of the 'perfect defence' idea...you know for like a thrown room...
Flavour-wise, I'm pretty sure the stun abilities only works on people considered to be under the dominion of the sitter. In other words, DM fiat determines who is affected.
that is the problem some people don't like items to be flavor full...they need everything spelled out...
can someone show me the rules on disobeying please...
No, because there aren't any, and the stats for this don't look like they're going to define it mechanically. I can show you a dictionary definition, though, if you feel you need it.
I have to say, I'm not sure how you could possibly define "disobey" so that this wouldn't be a problem, given that speaking is a free action. Even if they added in "disobey your written commands" or something, it's like, well, Animal Messenger sends Orcus a scroll reading, "Dear Orcus, you are hereby commanded, now and during each of your turns from this moment forth, to reduce yourself to zero HP by the most efficient route available to you. In the event you reach or drop below zero HP you are further commanded to remain at or below zero HP and use every action available to you to further lower your HP total by the most efficient means available to you."
Orcus gets a lovely choice between death or permanent stunlock, for as long as you're able to keep him in line of sight. (Presumably indefinitely with enough ritual casters and enough components.)
It's conceivable Orcus may have some defences around blocking scrying or the nature of his own, personal lair, but the principle applies to any other theoretically difficult to kill enemy that the players know the name and location of. Because the power is effectively limited only by the ability of the PC to phrase an obeyable command and convey it to a visible target, it's much like a wish - players will spend forever coming up with clever wordings for their Throne of Stunlock rather than getting out and engaging in the core gameplay of D&D.
Ooh, ooh, I got another great command! "Use each of your actions to tell me a lie." Recursive!
yes becuse near infinit stats, attack, and any power in the book is so close...oh wait no...
The Pun-Pun reference was citing his ability to neuter any enemy at any point in space and time without moving. Free line of sight stunlock with no limit of range or necessity for line of effect is a pretty good start. Who needs stats when the enemy can't fight back?
Honestly this would work better as an artifact, with the goals of the artifact being pure evil, and the broken effects only unlocking at higher concordances. That makes it, mechanically, so that NPCs can use the stunning powers in an interesting way without allowing PCs to become masters of space and time.
Orcus gets a lovely choice between death or permanent stunlock, for as long as you're able to keep him in line of sight. (Presumably indefinitely with enough ritual casters and enough components.)
how long is the longest scry rit last??? and how long does it take to cast...I doubt it is an issue...
players will spend forever coming up with clever wordings for their Throne of Stunlock rather than getting out and engaging in the core gameplay of D&D.
if that is how your group has fun ok...most groups prefer to play the game as a game not a theretical exersise in breaking mechanics...
without allowing PCs to become masters of space and time.
???? at best it gives the PC home court advantage and stuns...
someone please show me how this is anything like Hiro Nakamora (Control of space and time)...no time stop, not time travel, not teleport...hmmm
This chair needs alot more clerification than what is stated, or else its intended purpose is inferior to what it is truely capable of. Even its intended purpose is shattering unless the enemy has invisibility. Homefield advantage is homefield win. Any enemy who enters the room can be ordered to turn into a pumpkin and be stunned for until death (unless he can indeed turn into a pumpkin).
A group of drow or anything with dark vision (or atleast, one to take the night shift) could conquer an entire town by a putting a chair at the top of a tower and ordering everyone around as long as they were outside their house, which he could very well order them not to go inside their homes, you'd have to be invisible to stop him since there is no facing rules.
Something can be flavourful and detailed at the same time, look at how awesome everyone thinks the Dark Wanderer is. Except, this is like dark wanderer with no restrictions, who can teleport inside any vault or treasury within 24 hours and take the loot, important quest items, atc.
how long is the longest scry rit last??? and how long does it take to cast...I doubt it is an issue...
Only needs to last however long it takes players to deal Orcus' HP in damage.
If that is how your group has fun ok...most groups prefer to play the game as a game not a theretical exersise in breaking mechanics...
It's pretty reasonable to ask for mechanics to be not OBVIOUSLY broken. This one took all of an hour on the forums for us to murder it.
someone please show me how this is anything like Hiro Nakamora (Control of space and time)...no time stop, not time travel, not teleport...hmmm
Now that you mention it, some rituals let you see the past. I hadn't even considered how that gets broken with effects that require line of sight but not line of effect; but I think that's something we should explore!
But seriously - this isn't hard to fix. Look, I've done it right here:
For those who want the text as-is, I've upped the item to be in the Epic Tier. We generally don't look too closely at balance once players start getting "once per day, when you die" abilities:
Show
Throne of Dominion
Level 28
This throne is carved with ornate filigree and reliefs showing a king ruling over subjects that span the chair’s entire surface.
Property: While you sit on the throne, when a creature you can see attempts to deceive, disobey, or betray you, it is stunned (save ends). All creatures you can see take a –3 penalty to attack rolls that target your Will.
Power (Daily Charm): Standard Action. Make an attack: Ranged sight; Charisma + 5 vs. Will; on a hit, the target is dominated until the end of your next turn.
Level 28
This throne is carved with ornate filigree and reliefs showing a king ruling over subjects that span the chair’s entire surface.
Property: While you sit on the throne, when a creature you can see attempts to deceive, disobey, or betray you, it is stunned (save ends). All creatures you can see take a –3 penalty to attack rolls that target your Will.
Power (Daily Charm): Standard Action. Make an attack: Ranged sight; Charisma + 5 vs. Will; on a hit, the target is dominated until the end of your next turn.
Like I said, it's just all kinds of wrong.
I mean, basically they're saying that, should Orcus pay you a visit, you can swivel around on the throne, stroking a white cat and say: Hey, Orcus, I command you to hand over your rod of pure awesome!
Orcus: Shove it down your pie hole! *stunned*
Now, I'm pretty sure that's not cricket.
Well, can't wait to see what other glorious items I'm spending my £££ on.
:D
Why is it always Orcus that has to do these examples?
First the DM who starts an encounter with the sitter making sure that everyone get stunned with an impossible order causing everyone to auto disobey, is railroading the players, and is basicly doing DM metagaming. Playing out the encounter to maximism effects as a power gamer might. Rather then doing so in a realistic manner. It's frustrating to the players, like the DM I had which every monster was a master tactition, to avoid every attack of oppurtunity.
To me this item helps creat a good challenge for the players when dealing with the throne owner. First drop clues that the person they need to talk to has an uncanny ability to know when people are lying, that dishonest people find themselves effected in his presence.
So now it becomes a challenge to deal with the person. Quit possibly the players earn some xp for not getting stunned.
This seems like a good item to use in campaigns that have a strong element of non combat encounters, with players that are good at thinking encounters.
If plyers are more prone to the, let's kill everything, then yes I can see this chair being easily abused.
My, my, you really are trying your hardest to be a snide, odious little person, aren't you?
no, I may have come off harder then I like to, but I have had these nee jerk reaction conversations before. See I came in and said I didn't think they were soo bad, then he said X and I said Y, and yes I jumped to the end fastewr then he did...but att he end of the day that is what happens...
Even if I agreed with any of your statements I would prefer not to side with you on the principle of your character being found severely lacking when dealing with people on an interpersonal level.
wow now I know ok..thank you//
Lighten up, drop the sarcasm, and join the discussion as a mature individual
I did start by stating an opionon...now I will state it again. until we see more about lair items there may be more rulse, or not...
as it is the 'broken' part of the item is useing it as it was not intended to be used...just look at it, it was never inteneded to walk around with it...it is for your base.
now if there is a upriseing, or an invasion it is really awsome...not so much for your attacks...
A group of drow or anything with dark vision (or atleast, one to take the night shift) could conquer an entire town by a putting a chair at the top of a tower and ordering everyone around as long as they were outside their house, which he could very well order them not to go inside their homes, you'd have to be invisible to stop him since there is no facing rules.
ok this seams to be a big issue...you can't take it with you from what we know so far...
Wondrous Lair Items
Lair items are a class of wondrous item that adventurers can add to their base of operations (or "lair"). Unlike most magic items, lair items aren’t portable; they must be left behind when a hero goes exploring. They provide comforts when the party returns home after a difficult adventure, and a home-field advantage against enemies who would dare assault them in their sanctum.
the important part here is as follows:
Unlike most magic items, lair items aren’t portable; they must be left behind when a hero goes exploring.
I had to remove some content from this thread because it violates the Code of Conduct, and to preserve continuity.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks and baiting each other.
Thank you.
Ceilidhs
Some clever words.
This pretty much sums up my feeling on the item - it's potentially evocative and, whilst massively abusable as straightforward power, in context it's simply an evocative device. Either a powerful NPC has it, so opposing them directly will take some guile or else you've got one back home, in which case peeps in and around your base of operations won't be starting any uprisings in the near future. Unless someone found guileful manner to overcome the thrones effects... (and so on)
On the one hand, you have two problem situations: PCs confront an enemy who possesses this item, and PCs themselves are confronted in their lair while in possession of it.
The first situation doesn't truly bother me - the rules for monster design already leave the DM able to completely hose the players if they choose to do so. The default assumption is that they will not, and will play fair - if they don't feel inclined to do so, this item isn't going to really change that. And while I think its availability and presence might encourage DMs to abuse it when they would shy away from more overt displays of DM power, the effect is so complete that no DM can reasonably claim they didn't go into the encounter intending the PCs to instantly lose. In any such situation, the problem isn't the item, it is the DM.
More of an issue, for a DM, is simply finding this an appropriate item for a king or other such figure - who becomes untouchable by any character. Or any foe at all, really, though I dislike extrapolating NPC on NPC combat via actual mechanics.
Similarly, it means PCs in their 'lair' are essentially untouchable - by a strict reading, at least. I'd say a reasonable interpretation of the intent is 'disobey' only would apply to someone who has sworn an oath to serve you, and then goes on to ignore it - but that could be clearer.
With that provision, I see it as far more reasonable. It applies to a king over his subjects. Outsiders, enemies, and other powerful beings - these would not be subject to the throne's effects. The flavor text supports this, certainly, along with the related 'quest', and the background description as well.
If one really wanted to keep it from being abused, one could even go on to have a 'level' limitation - in addition to only working on subjects of the one using it, the throne might also only work against those whose level is lower than either the item itself, or the person that sits in the throne. That would seem to ensure that mighty enough figures of a realm could overcome an unlawful tyrant.
All in all, it seems like a clever and interesting item that was executed without much consideration for possible abuses. AV1 definitely had a couple poorly chosen items, though the bulk was relatively reasonable - I'm hoping the same might hold true here, and that an item like this is the exception rather than the norm.
First, it requires line of site. So what about invisible characters? What about splitting up so that all of the party can't be seen at one time? Yes, in combat you have 360 degree vision, but that means you are aware of things going on around you. It's not quite the same as line of sight.
Second, the throne doesn't do anything to help you stay on the throne. I'm sure a clever enough group can work to get the person out of the throne.
First, it requires line of site. So what about invisible characters? What about splitting up so that all of the party can't be seen at one time? Yes, in combat you have 360 degree vision, but that means you are aware of things going on around you. It's not quite the same as line of sight.
Second, the throne doesn't do anything to help you stay on the throne. I'm sure a clever enough group can work to get the person out of the throne.
I'd say those aren't very realistic examples - if you intend the item to be viable in an actual combat, it should not require a level 12 party to somehow have access to complete invisibility. Even if it could be done (by filling the room with zones that block line of sight, or extremely high stealth checks, etc), it is not a reasonable expectation for an entire party to be capable of producing on demand.
And... yeah, in combat, you have line of sight all around you. It is blocked by actual objects or obscurement, not hindered by what direction you are facing.
And while someone can be knocked off the throne, the issue is that in any combat situation, they can command people to not fight them, and everyone who keeps fighting them is instantly stunned. That is protection enough - the only way to get them off the throne is to already have a way to bypass its commands.
Are there ways to bypass it, in the end? Sure, probably. But that doesn't make it an appropriate item for its level - assuming the full level of power, that is. If you go with the interpretations it only works on those already pledged to the service of the one on the throne, the potential for abuse is much, much less.
I'd say those aren't very realistic examples - if you intend the item to be viable in an actual combat, it should not require a level 12 party to somehow have access to complete invisibility. Even if it could be done (by filling the room with zones that block line of sight, or extremely high stealth checks, etc), it is not a reasonable expectation for an entire party to be capable of producing on demand.
And... yeah, in combat, you have line of sight all around you. It is blocked by actual objects or obscurement, not hindered by what direction you are facing.
And while someone can be knocked off the throne, the issue is that in any combat situation, they can command people to not fight them, and everyone who keeps fighting them is instantly stunned. That is protection enough - the only way to get them off the throne is to already have a way to bypass its commands.
Are there ways to bypass it, in the end? Sure, probably. But that doesn't make it an appropriate item for its level - assuming the full level of power, that is. If you go with the interpretations it only works on those already pledged to the service of the one on the throne, the potential for abuse is much, much less.
Well, I don't think this item is intended as part of a combat encounter. Anyone who would likely have one of these is going to have it in it's lair, which most likely is going to be well guarded.
Also, not everyone need be hidden, invisible, or whatever. Which would be part of the encounter challenge, the visible players are a distraction for the hidden/invisible players.
The point is, peoples first reaction was, great I just say, X\"Everyone tear out their hearts, now!" and bam, everyone is stunned. But there are ways around it. Even simple invisibility, a level 6 wizard power could make the wizard or another player safe from the stun effect. A rogue that managed to sneak in. Heck, even if it was as simple as say a gnome hiding under a persons robes.
Just so long as they can't be seen.
As for the facing, part, I was thinking more out of combat, I think it would be fair for a DM to rule that if someone was standing behind the person on the throne, they would not be considered seen, sort of how a rogue can sneak behind people in non combat situations.
Why is it always Orcus that has to do these examples?
Hey Dane, what's the source of the awesome Orcus image? Is it your work or from somewhere else?
Just because I'm inclined to link to it in future and I'd want to give credit where credit's due. It was an image we needed to have. :-)
And look, do we have to defend the throne as written? Can we not agree that my three re-workings of it preserve the flavour and intended power level while removing the worst munchkin uses?
Hey Dane, what's the source of the awesome Orcus image? Is it your work or from somewhere else?
Just because I'm inclined to link to it in future and I'd want to give credit where credit's due. It was an image we needed to have. :-)
And look, do we have to defend the throne as written? Can we not agree that my three re-workings of it preserve the flavour and intended power level while removing the worst munchkin uses?
I drew this morning for the post. I'm fine with you linking to it, just PM me with how you want to use it, please.
If someone wants to rewrite an item, go for it I say. I just think the item can work as is, if used intelligently. Hmmm....maybe it does need to be re-written.
I drew this morning for the post. I'm fine with you linking to it, just PM me with how you want to use it, please.
If someone wants to rewrite an item, go for it I say. I just think the item can work as is, if used intelligently. Hmmm....maybe it does need to be re-written.
It's awesome, nice work.
I was basically just going to link it on threads where Orcus gets trotted out in a quote box with your name on it.
ok this seams to be a big issue...you can't take it with you from what we know so far...
the important part here is as follows:
must be left behind when a hero goes exploring.
So I go invading instead, i could already know the area and not need to explore anything? Also, whats to stop a ritual caster from MAKING it on the spot? If it needs a lair, you just take over an abandoned building.
This still doesn't stop it from being broken even on the home turf. As long as you sit in the chair, you can make statues out of non-invisible enemies by giving them orders they can't obey. You could also mount it on a high point of your home turf and effectively control for extremely long distances. And i'm sorry if it seems meta-gamey, but i mean, what villain or character would make an order to do something they can do when they can just stunlock it. Yes, it can be countered by invisibility, but last i checked, things in 4th aren't usually broken in half as long as one little thing doesnt happen.
The item itself is a good idea, but it is too open to abuse, it needs a range and restrictions on the 'disobey' line, or else its an item that may as well say "if the DM agrees, the enemy is stunned (save ends)".
Where's titanium dragon? i'm sure he'd have a field day with this thing.
With those restrictions it seems quite balanced and still desirable.
So I think the throne should have two simple restrictions. First that it only applies to someone who swears on oath of fealty to someone sitting on the throne. Second that you can only stun someone once unless they swear the oath again.
With those restrictions it seems quite balanced and still desirable.
That's a pretty neat solution too. It suffers from definition problems around "oath of fealty" but I think that's not so nearly as troubling as the as-printed text and probably is something common sense can handle.
As an NPC-only item it's just fine
No, it's not fine when the level 1 minion orders your epic demigod wizard around just because he has a fancy chair
- it would be cool to find a villain sitting on one of these when you reach his throne room.
To be auto-stuned each and every round until his minions are finished with CdGing the party (command "don't defend yourself")?
Homefield advantage is homefield win. Any enemy who enters the room can be ordered to turn into a pumpkin and be stunned for until death (unless he can indeed turn into a pumpkin).
What's with the fixation on "homefield"? I can't be the only one who immediately thought about attaching the throne to a wagon (pulled by Dagon and Demogorgon who can't refuse or be stunlocked)
the important part here is as follows:
Well, we can only hope that they put it into an actual rule and didn't merely think that it's given by how cumbersome they are. Because you can transport a lot if you really put effort behind it
No, it's not fine when the level 1 minion orders your epic demigod wizard around just because he has a fancy sit
To be auto-stuned each and every round until his minions are finished with CdGing the party (command "don't defend yourself")?
I say it's fine as an NPC only item because as an NPC only item it's controlled by the DM. The DM can use it in a manner appropriate to his campaign.
To put it another way, if the DM wants to stunlock your epic demigod wizard he doesn't need items or rules to do that; he declares that your epic demigod wizard is stunlocked. No amount of rules can prevent a DM being a jerk, and so to that extent the throne being used by an NPC doesn't change the status quo.
But again - for anyone tempted to jump in at the end of the thread without reading the middle - it's perfectly fine as a PC item too, with some very minor changes, which are detailed in the posts above if you'll take a moment to read the rest of the thread.
What's with the fixation on "homefield"? I can't be the only one who immediately thought about attaching the throne to a wagon (pulled by Dagon and Demogorgon who can't refuse or be stunlocked)
It's a "lair item" and while we don't have the rules for it yet, one can safely assume that these are items that need to be installed in a player's home base. Either they'll have install time/costs, or they'll be too fragile to travel, or the AV2 will simply say, "These are intended for a lair, and if players want to get clever about that the DM should take away their character sheet and show them the door." Either way I'm prepared to hold off on that one until I see the full text in the final book.
for anyone tempted to jump in at the end of the thread without reading the middle
Actually I never do that. I jump in at the start and start answering as the post go (before I reach the end).
it's perfectly fine as a PC item too, with some very minor changes, which are detailed in the posts above
None of the changes actually change that a level 1 creature could start to stun a level 200 creature without needing an attack roll. At least the third limits it to once per encounter, but it should still require an attack vs. will as a free action.
Actually I never do that. I jump in at the start and start answering before I reach the end.
None of the changes actually change that a level 1 creature could start to stun a level 200 creature without needing an attack roll.
The level 1 PC won't get it because it's a level 12 item and they won't find it / can't afford it. The level 1 monster or NPC we don't care about because if the DM is deliberately trying to screw players this is a pretty inefficient way to go about it.
The more reasonable scenario - a level 10 character stunning a level 34 monster - because after all we don't have level 200 creatures - requires the creature attacking the PC on his home turf at a time that the PC happens to be sitting on the throne.
As a DM, I'm happy that that doesn't yield dramatically inappropriate consequences; if you're not, please feel free to provide more options to the community by giving us another re-write for the Throne that fixes that issue. (Although I'd suggest the Epic Tier version fixes that concern - are we really that worried about a Demigod having a clear mechanical advantage against any published monster while fighting on his home turf?)
are we really that worried about a Demigod having a clear mechanical advantage against any published monster while fighting on his home turf?)
As a simulationist: Yes I am.
Orcus would have to be afraid to visit his exarchs in their throne rooms for fear of them sitting on such a throne. Fix could be:
Show
Property: While you sit on the throne, once per turn when a creature you can see attempts to deceive, disobey, or betray you, you can make an attack Wis or Cha +X* vs. Will; on a hit the target is stunned (save ends). All creatures you can see take a –3 penalty to attack rolls that target your Will.
*depending on tier
*depending on tier
As a simulationist: Yes I am.
I'd suggest that as a simulationist 4E is probably a long way down the list of games you should be playing and that epic destinies were pretty clearly not built with your game style in mind - but it seems you've enjoyed 4E up to this point so who am I to judge? We'll all benefit from your off-center perspective.
Re post formatting, you were probably looking for [SBLOCK] rather than [SPOILER].
I'd suggest that as a simulationist 4E is probably a long way down the list of games you should be playing
Sadly I can't disagree.
However I noticed a lot of simulationism aspects slowly creeping back into the game (e.g Maglibuyet, the demigod of goblins, has an attack with a special line saying that creatures below level 20 are slain instandly)
and that epic destinies were pretty clearly not built with your game style in mind
Actually I don't see an inevitably for conflict between the concept of EDs and simulationism. Some particular EDs might be build in such a way, yet a lot EDs are also build to conflict with gameisn (by being horribly broken)
It's awesome, nice work.
I was basically just going to link it on threads where Orcus gets trotted out in a quote box with your name on it.
That's totally cool. I'm fine with not being credited. Not sure I want my personal information and name on the forums. Or if you are going to credit me, just do it as Dane McArdy.
Actually I never do that. I jump in at the start and start answering as the post go (before I reach the end).
None of the changes actually change that a level 1 creature could start to stun a level 200 creature without needing an attack roll. At least the third limits it to once per encounter, but it should still require an attack vs. will as a free action.
Several posts (mine and at least one or two others) mentioned the need for a legitimate oath of fealty - which would prevent the level 1 minion from ordering around an archmage in most legitimate scenarios. I also earlier put forward the possible change that the throne wouldn't work on creatures higher level than it or the user, either of which also fixes these problems.
I mean, I fully agree the item as is has issues - but I think the suggestions made thus far do indeed address those issues and provide solutions that let the item keep its flavor while preventing abuse.
And if he DID have to stop by, I can't see him allowing his underlings to have one of these.
Why are people playing Orcus as rather stupid and like a lackey?
Well, I don't think this item is intended as part of a combat encounter. Anyone who would likely have one of these is going to have it in it's lair, which most likely is going to be well guarded.
I just don't honestly think that is a good reason for an item to be overpowered - assuming non-combat use means why stat the item out for combat at all, really?
You can indeed probably set up a very nice skill challenge to remove someone from the throne... or, as DM, give a set of monsters the ability to invisibly approach a PC on it and take them out. But neither seems like a particularly good solution, compared to just making the item balanced in the first place.
Just because you can find ways around a problem, doesn't mean the problem isn't there to begin with. I think that's the issue at hand - a few simple clarifications or changes to the item would remove any real potential for abuse. It would be nice to see those, rather than letting DMs and players simply find ways around the issue.
If you do indeed feel the item is not abusable in its current state, then I suppose we can simply agree to disagree on the matter.
I just don't honestly think that is a good reason for an item to be overpowered - assuming non-combat use means why stat the item out for combat at all, really?
You can indeed probably set up a very nice skill challenge to remove someone from the throne... or, as DM, give a set of monsters the ability to invisibly approach a PC on it and take them out. But neither seems like a particularly good solution, compared to just making the item balanced in the first place.
Just because you can find ways around a problem, doesn't mean the problem isn't there to begin with. I think that's the issue at hand - a few simple clarifications or changes to the item would remove any real potential for abuse. It would be nice to see those, rather than letting DMs and players simply find ways around the issue.
If you do indeed feel the item is not abusable in its current state, then I suppose we can simply agree to disagree on the matter.
No, I agree, the item isn't without problems, as written. I think it just shows that people approach things differently. In my campaign, such an item wouldn't be such a problem, because of the way I would approach it.
Should a player have one, there are not going to be encounter after encounter in their lair where the throne would become a problem.
As an item as part of the encounter, I would use it as I think it's intended to be used, as a tool for an encounter challenge, not a combat challenge.
The thing is, while it could have been thought out differently, WoTC can't really control how any given person will use something. If a player is determined to abuse the game, they will look for every chance to do so, whether the throne existed or not. The DM that finds ways to block players, is also going to find ways to do so, with or without the throne.
At best all it does is give players or DMs a stand of, "It's in the books, it's legal, and you can't do anything about it." Granted, WoTC would probably do well to avoid material that causes that, but anything can become that focus.
I mean, did you read the thread about the player wanting to play an artificer who took a feat to use a drow long knife, and it caused a huge fight between him and the DM?
No, I agree, the item isn't without problems, as written. I think it just shows that people approach things differently. In my campaign, such an item wouldn't be such a problem, because of the way I would approach it.
Oh yeah, I totally get that - and, in truth, I've seen some very interesting sessions where the absurdity of specific items or rules only provided inspiration for the players or the DM to find ways around them.
And it is definitely true that perfect balance really isn't possible, and - given that players and DMs often have different views of what is reasonable - even the smoothest system will still have issues that crop up for debate. But at the same time, I think it is still worth recognizing when something is easier to abuse or more likely to cause an issue - if only to avoid whatever the problem was the next time.
Oh yeah, I totally get that - and, in truth, I've seen some very interesting sessions where the absurdity of specific items or rules only provided inspiration for the players or the DM to find ways around them.
And it is definitely true that perfect balance really isn't possible, and - given that players and DMs often have different views of what is reasonable - even the smoothest system will still have issues that crop up for debate. But at the same time, I think it is still worth recognizing when something is easier to abuse or more likely to cause an issue - if only to avoid whatever the problem was the next time.
I agree, however most of the examples given weren't examples of good gaming, in my view. The idea of having Orcus stand in front of you at your home? Sure, that was said in jest, since that's how I took it. But the drow on a rooftop example?
For me as a designer, I would feel frustrated in trying to supply an answer, or take feedback, when the given examples of how it can be abused are extreme. How can I adress the use of a throne even in the example of the drow, other then to point out, the items don't leave the lair? Their example of how to abuse the throne is already covered in the rules.
That's basically my point. For this item to be abusive in the way most people are describing, are extreme or some what absurd in their conception.
So if we stay within the realm of good gaming and good encounters, is the item as horrible as people first think?
That's basically my point. For this item to be abusive in the way most people are describing, are extreme or some what absurd in their conception.
So if we stay within the realm of good gaming and good encounters, is the item as horrible as people first think?
Well... yes.
It doesn't have to be Orcus for it to be an issue. The PCs have their base of operations - a tower, stronghold, whatever. They have a villain of significant power, who they have encountered time and time again, with neither having the upper hand.
As the item is strictly written, their villain - or any other powerful entity - cannot confront them in their lair without automatically losing. Orcus was tossed out as an example, but it could be anything - from the party's archfoe, their NPC rivals, a marauding dragon that bashes in through the wall and then is instantly stunned.
A DM can, certainly, give villains ways to bypass this, sure. But for many, it will be a stretch to do so. More likely, they can just alter how the throne works, along the lines of the various suggestions given thus far. But going by the base item itself, unaltered, there is clearly an issue - exaggerations aside, it gives a vastly disproportionate degree of power for its level, even considering the built-in limitations as a lair item. A level 12 item should not make one character all powerful within even a single room - and by the flavor and description of the item, that wasn't what was intended. It just... happened to be the result, due to not expanding the wording on how it works.
Even if the item never has any sphere of influence beyond the throne room of a base of operations, it is still 'horrible' due to the effect it has on the game - to prevent any reasonable encounter from taking place within that throne room. That's a limitation that only hurts the game - and hurts it significantly, if the place is so central to the PCs that they want to adorn it with magic items. There are clearly ways around the issue, as we've seen - but I will definitely continue to maintain that it creates plenty of problems without having to resort to unrealistic scenarios or any exaggeration at all.
Well... yes.
It doesn't have to be Orcus for it to be an issue. The PCs have their base of operations - a tower, stronghold, whatever. They have a villain of significant power, who they have encountered time and time again, with neither having the upper hand.
As the item is strictly written, their villain - or any other powerful entity - cannot confront them in their lair without automatically losing. Orcus was tossed out as an example, but it could be anything - from the party's archfoe, their NPC rivals, a marauding dragon that bashes in through the wall and then is instantly stunned.
A DM can, certainly, give villains ways to bypass this, sure. But for many, it will be a stretch to do so. More likely, they can just alter how the throne works, along the lines of the various suggestions given thus far. But going by the base item itself, unaltered, there is clearly an issue - exaggerations aside, it gives a vastly disproportionate degree of power for its level, even considering the built-in limitations as a lair item. A level 12 item should not make one character all powerful within even a single room - and by the flavor and description of the item, that wasn't what was intended. It just... happened to be the result, due to not expanding the wording on how it works.
Even if the item never has any sphere of influence beyond the throne room of a base of operations, it is still 'horrible' due to the effect it has on the game - to prevent any reasonable encounter from taking place within that throne room. That's a limitation that only hurts the game - and hurts it significantly, if the place is so central to the PCs that they want to adorn it with magic items. There are clearly ways around the issue, as we've seen - but I will definitely continue to maintain that it creates plenty of problems without having to resort to unrealistic scenarios or any exaggeration at all.
Well, my first thought about this is, How did that arch-villian end up face to face in the PC's lair? There has to be a good reason for the person who wants them dead, to be able to be standing in front of them, with out a trail of corpses behind him. It would be bad DMing to try and make the arch-villian take down the players in their own throne room with one of these.
Now granted, I do agree that the stun effect should at least have an attack roll to it. If I was to alter it, that's the alteration I would go with, since it's line of site, everyone gets hit.
Again, I'm not saying it isn't over powered with the auto stun. Just that it needs to be handled right.
I guess I'm also seeing, well what if this was the set up, with no explanation of how that it came to be that we find ourselves in that situation. It's almost we start with players in base, villian in front of them, go!
Well, my first thought about this is, How did that arch-villian end up face to face in the PC's lair? There has to be a good reason for the person who wants them dead, to be able to be standing in front of them, with out a trail of corpses behind him. It would be bad DMing to try and make the arch-villian take down the players in their own throne room with one of these.
...
I guess I'm also seeing, well what if this was the set up, with no explanation of how that it came to be that we find ourselves in that situation. It's almost we start with players in base, villian in front of them, go!
Sure, but that isn't a particularly hard thing to fill in. It obviously won't happen all the time - but there are any number of scenarios where villains would confront PCs within their own stronghold. And keep in mind - at early paragon, while the PCs might have some defenses, they don't necessarily have armies defending their base or anything along those lines. Maybe a few guards, maybe a few magical defenses - but presumably the main defense of the stronghold is the PCs themselves.
And, in this case, their magical throne that stops all foes in their tracks.
And again, there are definitely ways around it. But I don't think it falls into the category of 'purely hypothetical scenarios' that only exist for the purpose of showing a situation in which an item doesn't work - this seems a very legitimate situation that almost seems like it would be inevitable in any game in which PCs have a premiere home base worthy of decorating with lair items and the like.
Sure, but that isn't a particularly hard thing to fill in. It obviously won't happen all the time - but there are any number of scenarios where villains would confront PCs within their own stronghold. And keep in mind - at early paragon, while the PCs might have some defenses, they don't necessarily have armies defending their base or anything along those lines. Maybe a few guards, maybe a few magical defenses - but presumably the main defense of the stronghold is the PCs themselves.
And, in this case, their magical throne that stops all foes in their tracks.
And again, there are definitely ways around it. But I don't think it falls into the category of 'purely hypothetical scenarios' that only exist for the purpose of showing a situation in which an item doesn't work - this seems a very legitimate situation that almost seems like it would be inevitable in any game in which PCs have a premiere home base worthy of decorating with lair items and the like.
It's totally plausible to have the villain confront the PCs in their lair. In fact, it's the best example given. Even at paragon level, and even if they players didn't have lots of guards, the question of why, did the villain end up there still comes up. Because honestly, how something happens is very important.
Seriously, if a DM, sends the villain into the players lair, knowing they have the throne, with the intent to kill the players, well it's going to suck for the DM, isn't it? It's going to be a short battle. Even if the DM thought he was being fair by going that the villain wouldn't know they have the throne.
But if the villain came to the PCs because he needed their help or to get the PCs to do something, wouldn't this item then work towards facilitating the adventure? Because if the villain is dishonest, the players are going to know it.
So yes, I agree the item is over powered in the wrong hands, DM or Players. Yes I think people that rework this item, are justified. If you don't want to roll an attack, I would down grade the stun to dazed, allowing the players to at least take one action.
But I also see how this item, as is can effectively used in a game, even if the player's own it. So for me, how you set the situation up, can make it so the item isn't abused.
Why is it always Orcus that has to do these examples?
Brilliant!!!
It is broken in combat. I don't deny that. It certainly shouldn't be 12th level. I'd say as written it's a weak artifact. However, consider the long-term ramifications of owning this item.
I'll disclaim how I interpret the words. For "see," I'll be generous to the throne-user. I'll call him the king. Tremorsense and truesight work. Scrying works. For "disobey," I'm a little more strict. I'm going to have to say that something must be able to hear and understand your orders in order to obey them. You can't order Orcus to die while scrying on him, unless you have some way to ensure that he can hear you. You can't order marauding orcs to take no actions, unless you share a language (or speak supernal.) I'll be generous and say you can order people to do things they are incapable of doing (fly to the ceiling!) and they are still disobeying you when they fail... however this interpretation isn't necessary.
So let's say you try to cheese it out a little. I'll admit I don't know a lot about scrying in 4e, so I'll leave that out for now. Let's say you have tremorsense and/or truesight, and you can speak Supernal. Anything that comes into the room with you is perma-stunned, right?
Well, maybe. You're not immune to attacks. You may be approached by an invisible creature that uses ranged powers on you from outside the range of your special 'seeing' modes. If these ranged powers succeed in removing you from the throne, then it's basically game over. I'm not sure what the maximum distance of PC-gained Tremorsense is, but I believe with Truesight it's either 5 or 10. I suspect Tremorsense couldn't be much bigger than that. Off the top of my head, a gnome invoker could do it with invisibility feats, and that magic staff that extends your range by one square per plus (up to 6, so 16 range on 10-range powers), using sun strike, which slides the target 1. (I'm sure there're many other ways to accomplish this.) Once this is done, the attackers' allies rush the scene with their delayed turns.
(I'm kind of blurring the line between DM and PC here. My assumption is that if the DM has the throne, he can use it in a way that befits the plot of the campaign and not just bully the players. If he's bullying, then that's its own problem. The throne is only a real issue if it's in the hands of the PCs. The DM can make NPCs do anything PCs can do, so if I can demonstrate that a PC course-of-action would sufficiently ruin the day of someone on the throne, then a DM course-of-action could at least do that.)
But, okay, let's say this doesn't happen. There're counters to this counter. Set up a room that's only 5x5 squares to put your throne in, and have 'alarm' spells in the (bent) hallway leading to your throne prison. Gnomish invoker, thwarted.
You can't adventure. This kind of puts a crimp in the style of most campaigns. If you go anywhere, anyone can sit on your throne, and when you get back they'll do to you whatever you might have done to them.
You still have to sleep. Who's going to guard the throne when you're not on it? How much do you trust your steward? Or, do you sleep on your throne? You don't have line of sight to anyone if you're sleeping with your eyes closed.
Okay, let's say you don't have to sleep. You're an Eladrin, you go into reverie/meditate with your eyes open so you can see the room. In this state, you still can't order people to do things such that they can disobey. Well, or can you. You put up a huge sign above you that says "LEAVE IMMEDIATELY. SIGNED, THE KING." Okay, no one can come in as long as they can see and read.
How do you exert dominion over a kingdom from inside a little room? Your subjects aren't forced to obey you once they walk out of it. If your kingdom hates you enough, they can just catapult your palace from afar. They can send unintelligent monsters in after you, like oozes. Or they can just board up the hallway door so that no one ever goes in to be dominated, and wait for you to starve to death.
You don't starve to death, you say? Oh, whoops, you're a Revenant. Well, I guess you're trapped in there forever.