Player's Handbook 2: Zealous Assassin
In today’s Player's Handbook 2 preview, we introduce a new paragon path for the avenger: the zealous assassin!*
Talk about this Excerpt here.
* - Originally referenced the Frenzied Berzerker in the RSS feed. This text has been corrected.
I hope all paragon paths on PHB2 are as exciting as the ZA and the previous paragon preview (Frenzied Berserker).
Though the utility has that "I'm better if I don't work properly" thing going on. You get 2 of your turns of invisibility if it doesn't target an Oathed enemy and a 50/50 chance of only one turn if it does. I guess the question is what happens if you make the target your subject to your Oath of Enmity during the second round? Does it now require a Save to End?
The key abilities for rogues are Dex and Cha/Str, but the Avenger has Wisdom as the primary with a currently unknown secondary. So multiclassing to Avenger (and taking the Assassin paragon path) is a pretty sub-par choice.
Which really highlights the problem with multiclassing and the current set-up of attack powers.
The thing is, rogues will probably NOT multiclass into Avenger, ever.
The key abilities for rogues are Dex and Cha/Str, but the Avenger has Wisdom as the primary with a currently unknown secondary. So multiclassing to Avenger (and taking the Assassin paragon path) is a pretty sub-par choice.
Which really highlights the problem with multiclassing and the current set-up of attack powers.
I agree that there is a problem with multiclassing and ability scores, but really Rogue into Avenger isn't all that bad. Level Wis/Dex, and your Rogue powers are still pretty effective, and your Avenger powers are as effective as any other Avenger (minus class features, of course). And this Paragon Path is pretty much Win for getting Combat Advantage.
I'm actually thinking of a character that goes the other way though - Avenger into Rogue. Especially for some of the Utility powers; there's one in Martial Power that forces the opponent to grant you combat advantage. Granted, if I pick up any attack powers from Rogue, I'll end up using a Rapier which isn't the best weapon for an Avenger, but I could do worse with the multiclass itself. Avenger into Barbarian, for example.... That's a pair of classes I would love to take, but the ability score match ups are horrible. I suppose I could do Str/Wis, but that invalidates a class feature. Oh well. I'm still looking for a houserule (as I DM too) that would fix the problem of ability score match ups in multiclassing, but I haven't found anything good yet.
EDIT: Actually, the secondaries have been confirmed from the 2 page excerpt. Someone over on Hordelings linked to an upload. It's Wisdom primary with Intelligence or Dexterity secondary. Making Avenger into Swordmage or Rogue quite viable.
For example, an Avenger multiclass feat, with a Wis requirement of 13, and a feat requirement of whatever the regular Avenger multiclass is, which would allow you to use Avenger powers with another stat of your choice (which must be made when the feat is first taken) would do a lot to fix the ability to multiclass into Avenger.
This a set of feats like this was made for every class, multiclassing would become a lot easier to do. It would still require that you have a stat of 13 in the primary stat of the class you want to multiclass into, but it would not require that that stat also be one of your primary stats.
The key abilities for rogues are Dex and Cha/Str, but the Avenger has Wisdom as the primary with a currently unknown secondary. So multiclassing to Avenger (and taking the Assassin paragon path) is a pretty sub-par choice.
Race: Elf/Razorclaw Shifter Str 10, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 14.
Looks like a perfectly good Rogue.. you can swap Str and Cha if you want to be a Brutal Scoundrel/Ruthless Ruffian rather than an Artful Dodger.
Race: Halfling/Drow Str 10, Con 10, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 14.
Makes a perfectly good Artful Dodger/Avenger as well.
(Feats to take for both builds: Toughnes (1), Avenger MC, Skill Focus (Stealth), your choice otherwise. Around 6th level you can probably retrain Toughness to something else anyway, as most monsters will never see you to hit you thanks to your level 6 and 2 utlities.)
With +3 or (4 with Dagger) weapons that is a perfectly good mix of stats, and class, especially with a Paragon Path that makes getting Combat Advantage as easy as the Zealous Assassin that 16 (18/19 at 11th) Wisdom will be providing +4+4+5+2+2= +17 as a typical attack bonus, vs the +18 for Dex attacks... (oh assuming only a +2 dagger for the attack, +3 is more likely)
Even Eladrin and other +2 Dex/+2 Other races have the ability to have 18 Wisdom at 11th level... their attacks are just less efficient from leves 1-4, 8-10, etc than a 16 starting Wisdom character. As the character will make maybe 2 or 3 of these attacks in most combats that isn't actually a huge issue.
Finally if the Rogue and Avenger automatcially and easily stacked that would be bad design on WotC's part. There is an opportunity cost on the multiclass that you have to be prepared to pay, usually people saying "never" are not prepared to pay that cost, it doesn't mean its not possible or even bad to be prepared to do so.
Finally if the Rogue and Avenger automatcially and easily stacked that would be bad design on WotC's part.
You're just plain wrong here. There are a lot of STR based paragon paths, which easily go together with brutal scoundrel rogues (as well as any STR based class, which there are a lot of). There are no CHA martial paragon paths and no DEX based paragon paths other than rogue and ranged ranger. Artful Dodgers just want some equity here.
You're just plain wrong here. There are a lot of STR based paragon paths, which easily go together with brutal scoundrel rogues (as well as any STR based class, which there are a lot of). There are no CHA martial paragon paths and no DEX based paragon paths other than rogue and ranged ranger. Artful Dodgers just want some equity here.
Both Warlocks and soon Sorcerers have a number of Cha based powers. An artful dodger can multiclass with those classes no problem. Hell, they can even have a special dagger to act as a warlock implement for their warlock powers. Or the artful dodger can multiclass paladin and pick up a few Cha based auras.
But I agree that the notions that classes should not stack easily is bad game design is just ridiculous. Many classes already do stack easily.
The thing is, rogues will probably NOT multiclass into Avenger, ever.
The key abilities for rogues are Dex and Cha/Str, but the Avenger has Wisdom as the primary with a currently unknown secondary. So multiclassing to Avenger (and taking the Assassin paragon path) is a pretty sub-par choice.
Which really highlights the problem with multiclassing and the current set-up of attack powers.
I don't know about that, it depends on your build. I have a level 2 Drow rogue (Artful Dodger) that is 10 STR, 10 CON, 18 DEX, 11 INT, 14 WIS, and 16 CHA. That would work for her once she got up to Paragon level, and possibly be thematically correct based on her background since she was a foundling raised in the temple of Selûne, sent off to make her mark on the world wen she was 18. She could easily return to the temple and make the commitment to fighting for her goddess official at some point.
However, I don't know which would be the better, more powerful, multiclassing in actual practice; Rogue multiclassed into Avenger, or Avenger multiclassed into Rogue.
Opinions?
Asmo, you might want to edit the text of your OP a bit. ;)
*looks at the OP text, which always showed the proper text... no, really!...*
I have no idea of what you speak, sir, who I have never met before.
*rolls critical fail on a bluff*
You're just plain wrong here. There are a lot of STR based paragon paths, which easily go together with brutal scoundrel rogues (as well as any STR based class, which there are a lot of). There are no CHA martial paragon paths and no DEX based paragon paths other than rogue and ranged ranger. Artful Dodgers just want some equity here.
Rogue and Avenger stacking easily is bad game design.
Not Rogue having access to secondary stat paragon paths. Which frankly I'm not even going to argue about as your position is more "I don't have an option I like", as there are clearly options available already for Artful Dodger rogues (both Rogue PP and Warlock and Paladin already offer options of course you might not want to pay the opportunity costs of the Paladin multi-class reqs either... which reminds me I have an Artful Dodger Rogue who is aiming towards the Kensai PP, sometimes its about the personality of the character not the most uber mechanical choice.).
But I agree that the notions that classes should not stack easily is bad game design is just ridiculous. Many classes already do stack easily.
Again not "no classes" but "Rogue and Avenger" don't take a specific case and turn it into a general statement.
Rogue and Avenger have a lot of thematic overlap based on what we have seen, so making it easy to multi-class between them will result in players being able to readily cherry-pick the best powers to have at given levels for their primary class.
Its also worth noting that in the same post where I said making it easy would be bad design I provided two builds that do present reasonable options for a Rogue to multiclass into Avenger. So its not like its hard to make the multiclassing happen, its just that there are infact costs, not high ones but costs regardless, to make the multiclass happen. Removing those costs would be bad design.
While I have a small list of problems with multi-classing still, I'll save it for another thread.
I do find myself wondering about a Fighter/Avenger combo though...