Have you found all that background and detail from Bordrin's Watch useful at all? I wonder if the PCs will be too busy with the rather structured career they have ahead of them throughout the Heroic teir of the AP at least. No time for (relative) free-roaming and mini-adventuring in the metropolis?
What have you experienced? Also, how do you do city-scenes. Walk them through the districts or just let them free-rein buy/sell, etc. summarize everything. The city itself becomes pretty important but I don't know how to not let it drag or get boring for PCs who aren't with the group I'm currently RPing with in Tradetown (for instance).
Also, I'd like to hear anybody's mini-quests that have popped up in Overlook.
My ranger is looking for land to start an exotic animal breeding program and he'll probably wind up with a nasty loan-shark looking to break some fingers down the road. But he'll also get that land to play with. That sort of thing.
Anyway, my two cents.
Anybody else?
They visited the Elsir Consortium and bought a couple of items and restocked and then were sent out to the Monastary. We just finished up the Nexus so they will probably go back and rest up for a day or so and then start exploring the city and restocking when they have nothing else to do. At that point I'm going to run the encounter in the begining of Umbraforge and then start the skill challenge as a city crawl. I will let them point out which district they want to goto and describe it to them as they walk the streets and let them know which stores they can visit along the way and have them find out info on Modra while they do that. So that way they get familiar with the city and they get the info needed to head to the Happy Beggar.
For instance, the Mountain's Hearth is located next to the eastern entrance to Overlook. That made it an instant magnet to the PCs, who were interested in getting a room fairly quickly. Reggem's problems with the Lost Ones meant they were going to come to loggerheads with the criminal element in short order. I firmly believe this is a semi-important encounter, even if it is unscripted, since the Lost Ones seem to play an ever-increasing role in the AP.
During their initial investigations, they met up with several notable NPCs, including Ruth and Rory Teng (whose story hook will come up next time I need to level them up), Krunk (who earned wary looks from most of the party, fresh from Rivenroar), and Mikal Rensfield (the owner who was being shaken down by the Lost Ones). Downtime RPing also introduced them to Dergan's XXX Brewery and Polliver's.
Shadow Rift gave me an opportunity to introduce more of the city as well, and I got them to the Pig & Bucket, the Pickled Imp (which gave rise to a tent-stall run by a flesh golem controlled by a brain-in-a-jar - the product of a throwaway line a player threw to the rest of the party), and several other places. It was probably my best skill challenge run yet, mostly because it didn't feel like one. It felt like an extended RP session, where bits of information were handed out and the story began to take form.
As for future bits, I plan on starting Lost Mines in either Coxcomb Spirits or the Turned Spoon, as they'd both be good places for a member of the Elsir Consortium to meet up with notable adventurers, probably the former due to its story hook. I plan on portraying a pair of rich young nobles attempting to get into the place and being informed that there is a four month wait for a table...and the irate noble stomping off when he sees the "riff-raff" getting ahead of him, with a threat to take his business to "those river-folk in Elftown!" Maybe a small side plot could be hatched during the eventual siege to destroy one of these two elite restaurants by the other side...but that's way in the future.
I would love to see a player guide to Overlook, much like the guide to Brindol located on this board. Obviously, bits of it would have to be sanitized, but handing it to PCs as they enter, saying, "This is what your characters know about the city." I'd love that immensely.
Did anybody use the Tip about the secret 3rd branch of the ministry of War for special non-standard teams doing semi-covert operations? That could be fun.
Or did anybody let the PCs in on any of the Consortium plot yet? Have any PCs actually looked into Rufus Crumley's services, or Dms RPd him?
Let's cultivate each others' creativity by sharing experiences or simply fun-sounding (or crazy-sounding) ideas. You certainly help my budding creativity.
P.S. I'm not sure how to edit the thread title to add a needed *SPOILERS*
Did anybody use the Tip about the secret 3rd branch of the ministry of War for special non-standard teams doing semi-covert operations? That could be fun.
Or did anybody let the PCs in on any of the Consortium plot yet? Have any PCs actually looked into Rufus Crumley's services, or Dms RPd him?
I diverged considerably, and made Kalad a member of the Third Branch, which he revealed after the Nexus fight. (After the fight was over and they were out the hatch, after burning every single healing surge and potion they could, I left on the cliffhanger of Kalad saying: "Now in all fairness, there's somethin' I need to tell yeh.") It makes him a better contact, and he offered the PCs essentially a place as affiliated operatives. It gives the PCs a more compelling reason to do all this stuff for Overlook. I plan to bring in the Third Branch more as it goes on -- I do need a good idea for their HQ, though.
My players have also visited Cromley, to pawn off some antique coins. I played him as weird, flighty and entirely mercenary -- almost every other line of his was a price for information or a desire to purchase one of the PC's body parts (I got the female tiefling to part with a lock of her hair; no luck with the female barbarian's spit or the human fighter's sweat. I don't intend to have him do anything weird with it, but hey, if it comes up, I've got one more hook up my sleeve.) I plan to use him to introduce plot for the player of my warlock, who is separated from the Vecna-affiliated assassin's guild that trained him.
If, in the grand scheme of things, important things happen in town, then they'll be up for some exploring, but for now, why waste game time finding the best prices on silk rope or (in the case of Brindol) waste GM time figuring out where all these shops are on the map, seeing as how the publishers couldn't be bothered to update the map legend?
I've used a number of locations and NPCs to build subplots:
Myra Edgerton
Myra works for Sarshan in my campaign. The obese half-elf flirted with the party's paladin constantly and he was later seen accompanying her to her house late one night after much drink - but he denies anything untoward happened. ("Are you kidding me? It would take two days forced march just to get on her good side!") When the party decided Modra needed to die, they put word out on the street that they would be up for the task if someone offered them a pile of gold. Enter Myra, who offered a hefty sum on behalf of a mysterious benefactor who the PCs later realized was... Sarshan. It made the encounter with him later in Umbraforge much cooler as they realized they were manipulated into doing Sarshan's dirty work all along. Myra now turns up from time to time to deliver information and orders from Sarshan, constantly reminding the party paladin of their obscene time together. (See below).
Sarshan
My PCs now work for Sarshan having accepted his terms in Umbraforge. While they fully plan on betraying him when the time is right, they're currently going along with whatever he wants. So far, he ordered the PCs to "get rid of" the paladins from the almshouse and set up their hq there to keep it protected. The PCs instead hired Prashant and Ausma to run soup kitchens (sponsored by the party) in Nine Bells and then threw a huge party for all the residents of Shantytown in the almshouse - the place is now condemned. Sarshan later ordered the PCs to assist Bram Ironfell in finding the Karak Lode, then had Myra question the PCs as to Bram's loyalty when they got back. (There is mention in the adventure that he is to use the gold from the mine to defend Overlook and he told the PCs this.) When the PCs lied horribly to cover for Bram, Sarshan sent word they are to arrange a meeting with Bram and then kill him. The PCs are now mulling this over...
Ruth & Rory Teng
One of the PCs is a dwarf warlock of advanced age, a lecherous sort who secretly worships Asmodeus. I described several episodes during the campaign in which he occasionally has seizures which affect his memory. So when he came to Overlook, he was approached by Ruth & Rory who seemed awfully nice to him. Prashant and Ausma treated him the same way. It was later revealed the PC was the leader of a cult of Asmodeus about 30 years ago before being killed by Rufus Crumley, who sought revenge against the PC for having relations with his wife (who was in the cult) - or so they thought. He survived and now that he's back, he's realizing he has a network of middle-aged cultists to draw upon as resources including at least one female member of the Council of Elders... and now he's plotting his revenge on his attacker. (It helps if you picture those weird sex cults from movies like Eyes Wide Shut or The Ninth Gate. That's what I was going for.)
The Lost Ones
I had the Lost Ones turn up the heat on the PCs. In addition to what has been published, I had them steal the PCs' horses and beat up some of their soup kitchen workers (before hiring Prashant and Ausma). So the PCs went on a nighttime raid and roughed up all the pimps, hookers, and drug peddlers they could find in Nine Bells. They left Prashant and Ausma in charge of protecting their charities. When the PCs left to go find the Karak Lode, Szagyn and some of his boys killed Prashant and nearly killed Ausma. This made the battle with the Lost Ones in Den of the Destroyer all that much sweeter. What's more, the doppelgangers in that encounter bore a tattoo in the small of their backs that matched one born by Myra Edgerton - but the paladin refuses to tell anyone because it would mean admitting the truth!
I could go on and on. My players love city sessions.
Thellaren, How'd your players get wind of such a negative view of the AP? Aren't we DMs responsible for makign the best of it? The publishers give us a good skeleton of story, if nothing else.
I told them.
The publishers have not given us any kind of skeleton for a story. The outline they published a few months after the AP began amounted to "Yarr! something's attacking Brindol! Go Get It!" "Yarr! Something's attacking Overlook! Go Get It..." rinse, repeat as needed. There was no foreshadowing, no continuity, no explanation for anything that's going to join any of these modules together except that people keep attacking the Vale. The Farstriders or Foreseekers or whatever they were were listed in one of the modules as a bunch of throwaway NPCs who didn't even figure into the plot, and now, oh noes, they're in trouble and need the PCs help six adventures later. At least, one of them does.
There's the ranger that joins them because one of the above NPCs got killed. She didn't stay long, because she was worthless. Is she going to be coming back in another couple chapters with a McGuffin in hand? Don't know. There's the ranger in the wastes who works for a freakin' lich. Is he going to be coming back? Don't know. Will we ever get a legend published for the map of Brindol? Don't know. How about a map of the entire area covered in the AP, even a rough, hand-drawn sketch like the PCs might have? Don't know.
We're seven MONTHS into this AP. Some AP's would be done by now. They're 1/3 of the way through the CAMPAIGN and we don't even know who the bad guys are yet. Other than, of course, YARR!!! Something's attacking the vale! Go get it!
And for foreshadowing (and key to map of Brindol) you should chk the threads there is an awesum (and EDITABLE) document produced by a DM that might help tweak your creative side.
I have issues with the way WotC is handling the slow information leak as well, but I've learned to accept it and move on. And while "some APs would be done by now," (which I take to mean Pathfinder, since there are no other APs I am aware of besides the Dragon ones and Pathfinder), 4E is a wildly different animal. 30 levels at 1.5 a level per mod means 18 stories, of which we're not even halfway finished. We haven't heard who the BBEG is yet because they haven't revealed themselves yet. There are some hints of where this is going (and after one of the most recent suspicions tossed around on a different thread, I'm inclined to believe it), but the Heroic tier isn't about fighting against the BBEG, or even his direct minions. At that tier, you're fighting the symptoms. Paragon tier shows you the actual illness. Epic tier is the final surgery.
The Heroic tier is over, and the first Paragon mod pretty much wrapped up a loose end from that tier. The remainder should start introducing the real issues, and I'd be surprised if we didn't really know what's going on by the end of it.
This would all be moot if the writers didn't keep a constant stream of stuff flowing across these pages about how this is all one, big, glorious plot they've got going, and how it's all going to connect together and be l33t. Not seeing it yet. See, I wouldn't mind that modules had nothing to do with each other if that's how they were written, but they're all supposed to be intimately involved with each other.
And for the people saying "just change pretty much everything so that it fits!" consider that all the changes I make have to fit with whatever comes up in the next module...
Also, consider that the "What is an Adventure Path?" sidebar in every module contains the following statement: "Finally, this Adventure Path is intended to function as a complete D&D campaign."
Do you believe they are accomplishing this task?
30 levels at 1.5 a level per mod means 18 stories, of which we're not even halfway finished.
Believe it or not Misroi, it's 1.61 levels per adventure which translates to 15 encounters per adventure. I had to create all kinds of Vlookups and formulas to calculate how much experience per encounter to get the appropriate amount. I hate math! What made it really tough was I originally was using 30 as the number of levels but it is only 29 because we start at 1. Anyway, this is all fodder for another thread most likely.
Tom
P.S. As I'm now getting into very high level play in 3.5 I can see the purpose of the changes in 4th Edition. 3.5 really starts to break down (IMO) around eleventh level when the fighters get their third attack.
Level the characters as appropriate to the story and the module's requirements.
I want my players to feel that they have options. They're just starting the SoW2 and will be back in Overlook for the city-crawl in a couple sessions.
Can you help me brainstorm for ideas of oddjobs people from the different sectors would offer them? Nothing that would majorly throw off their xp, but I'd be willing to exchange future treasure parcels and cut some later extraneous (and not very story-appropriate encounters) to let them feel like their choices are driving things more than me and my published series of events.
Treat this like a 101 things people in Overlook or its environs would solicit the PCs for.
1) Prospectors or miners from Forgeworks or Boneyard: Investigate a possible new mineral vein in the mountains. (Twist: Investigate a mine that's been out of communication for too long)
Shantytown
2) Hunt some venomous creatures (scorpions or spiders or something) and bring back intact specimens for the owner of Clean Sheets (to extract poison from for the Lost Ones) (Twist: Have to bring them back alive to get fresh venom)
Tradetown or Boneyard
3) Haul or escort cargo within Overlook or to somewhere else.
High Hall
4) Conduct surveillance on some official or another (for a rival, good, bad, or unknown)
5) Explore the western sides of the mountains for future military fortifications on behalf of the Minister of War (Twist: find out what happened to a lost forward post during the orc horde advance, find some expert operative)
6) Increase popularity, endorsement, or business at some business (restaurant, manufacture etc) somehow. (Twist: Have to deal with rival business but get a discount, sponsership etc)
The interesting part of 4E is getting into fights, so that's what we do. Overlook just happens to be where that's happening right now.
Oh, and I agree with Iserith: we've decided to level up when the appropriate, and so I'll get an XP budget, design an encounter, and then I can just forget about XP. Much easier.
So new question, same theme.
I want my players to feel that they have options. They're just starting the SoW2 and will be back in Overlook for the city-crawl in a couple sessions.
Can you help me brainstorm for ideas of oddjobs people from the different sectors would offer them? Nothing that would majorly throw off their xp, but I'd be willing to exchange future treasure parcels and cut some later extraneous (and not very story-appropriate encounters) to let them feel like their choices are driving things more than me and my published series of events.
Treat this like a 101 things people in Overlook or its environs would solicit the PCs for.
1) Prospectors or miners from Forgeworks or Boneyard: Investigate a possible new mineral vein in the mountains. (Twist: Investigate a mine that's been out of communication for too long)
Shantytown
2) Hunt some venomous creatures (scorpions or spiders or something) and bring back intact specimens for the owner of Clean Sheets (to extract poison from for the Lost Ones) (Twist: Have to bring them back alive to get fresh venom)
Tradetown or Boneyard
3) Haul or escort cargo within Overlook or to somewhere else.
High Hall
4) Conduct surveillance on some official or another (for a rival, good, bad, or unknown)
5) Explore the western sides of the mountains for future military fortifications on behalf of the Minister of War (Twist: find out what happened to a lost forward post during the orc horde advance, find some expert operative)
6) Increase popularity, endorsement, or business at some business (restaurant, manufacture etc) somehow. (Twist: Have to deal with rival business but get a discount, sponsership etc)
As previously stated, rid yourself of the XP shackles. Problem mostly solved.
The only other issue I would have as a player would be the "questy" feel of some of these, specifically, numbers 2 and 3. I don't to want throw around the MMO-word, but that's how it would feel to me unless DMed with some very seamless storytelling.
As for Number 1, see Lost Mines of Karak. You wouldn't want to have them do basically the same adventure twice.
Number 5 would almost be a rehash of what the players will already be doing in Siege of Bordrin's Watch. I'd skip it.
Numbers 4 and 6 are the most appropriate in my opinion. How you might introduce them to Overlook is by playing up a certain "carnival" atmosphere - hundreds of defenders have arrived from all over the Vale to prepare themselves for a battle in which they may very well die. What would you do if you were one of the people showing up to defend and possibly die? Kill spiders in a sewer? Nah, you'd probably go out drinking, eating, whoring, or praying.
So play up everything in areas where one might do this. Introduce rivals and NPCs to be used a future date. Do some dice gambling. Drop some rumors. In general, give the players the feeling that they're in the "big city" now and if they can prove themselves on the morrow, they could be as famous as the Farstriders. If you have decent players, they'll have plenty of ideas of their own. Improvise.
I do have to learn to improvise better. They're kind of letting me lead them so far though. They just nearly got killed by Og and they liked the session of combat after combat down through the monastery. Oh, and they're MMO days have made them very meticulous about xp. I still feel moderately loosed of the shackles of it though because I modify it up or down based on the pace things are going relative to the story. I still make appropriate encounters but am looser with xp, they don't know that though. I like it that way.
Thanks for the feedback, being new to DMing I don't want to bore them or screw up pacing by crawling too slowly though a town and significant, interesting character dev and RP opps in atomic time.
The MMOers are mostly powergamers, the other half are story-likers (not tellers) and actors.