Posts that attempt to shout down, derail, or otherwise subvert this thread will be reported to the moderation team.
I started this post so that all disgruntled parties could have a central thread to express their frustration.
I'm pretty frustrated with the way WotC has handled the VTT and visualizer thus far and the past 10 months or so I have not seen any indication that the WotC intends to remedy this grievance.
Thanks for the thread.
I can't say I'm frustrated - I know software development ALWAYS takes more time than you plan. I'm a D&Di subscriber, and I am /hooked/ on the character generator - It's just so freaking easy to make a character. For a casual player like me, it's a godsend.
We recently got a post from WOTC about the survey results - so they have heard us - it would be nice to get a status update about the two products? I know most software folks answer the question "when will it be done" with "when it's ready".
I personally don't think wotc has committed any grievous sin -
I'm pretty frustrated with the way WotC has handled the VTT and visualizer thus far and the past 10 months or so I have not seen any indication that the WotC intends to remedy this grievance.
How is it a grievance, exactly, if your sole complaint is that you aren't getting something that you haven't paid for?
By the way, please remove your signature. That you are even considering either of those options is incomprehensible. Advocating them to others only makes it worse.
To give you an idea of how ridiculous it sounds, try filing a class action lawsuit against Nintendo the next time they delay a product. Better yet, report them to the Better Business Bureau when they decide to cut a feature. You will be laughed at.
How is it a grievance, exactly, if your sole complaint is that you aren't getting something that you haven't paid for?
By the way, please remove your signature. That you are even considering either of those options is incomprehensible. Advocating them to others only makes it worse.
To give you an idea of how ridiculous it sounds, try filing a class action lawsuit against Nintendo the next time they delay a product. Better yet, report them to the Better Business Bureau when they decide to cut a feature. You will be laughed at.
I'll do no such thing. Bait and switch is a crime. Now if you'd kindly stick to the topic instead of violating the CoC rule #6.
That being said, I think that most people have accepted the fact that WotC has decided to take a different route in adding value to their digital initiative that may result in the GT being pushed back some.
Bait and switch is a crime.
Bait and switch is a crime. However, WotC hasn't done anything of the sort.
Bait and switch requires that when you go in to buy a product at a cheap price, it isn't available and you get pressured into buying a more expensive product. With DDI, it (the entire suite) was to be available at about $15 a month. It obviously wasn't available. As a matter of fact, even subscribing wasn't available until the beginning of october (IIRC), 4 months later. And then, they aren't trying to push a more expensive product on you. They pretty much say "the GT isn't available, but here is what is available, at it is at a cheaper price than we originally announced."
However, I don't think WotC is evil, or has committed some horrible grievance against the community. I realize that many of us are unhappy with the way WotC has put a stranglehold on the flow of information to the community, but I believe they are making an effort to do what is in the best interests of their company AND the community. That may involve some compromises that upset some of us even more, but so goes business. Especially in this economy.
I am a paying D&Di subscriber. I bought a year in February. Before that, I didn't pay, because WotC had not released anything I was willing to pay for. I also kept my complaints to a minimum (personal choice). Once they released the CB, I subscribed because they had something I was willing to pay for. I bought a year for two reasons, one; because I hope they will finish more apps soon; and two; because I think the monthly updates to the CB to include all the new material is worth the price I paid in advance.
Ultimately, my point is this. If you are not a subscriber, you have lost nothing on D&Di. If you are a subscriber, and you paid for whats already been released (CB, Comp., EB, etc.); you have the right to complain about those products, if you are unhappy with them. If you are a subscriber, and you paid for what hasn't been released, you are kinda foolish (IMHO). I would never pay for something online, if the seller get's to choose when, or if they will ever deliver the product. I would only pay in advance, if I knew a specific, "guaranteed or your money back" delivery date.
These are only my opinions, and I am not judging anyone. I just don't think many people actually have the right to complain. Sure you can be unhappy with the way WotC does business, and you can let them know what you think of the way they do business. Complaining though, is reserved for those who are not happy with what they bought, and that does not include those who paid for what they hoped they might get sometime in the future.
Just my thoughts & opinions.
I don't see how complaining on the forums will get anything done faster, unless you want something buggier than the character builder, so you can then make threads to complain about that. I'm sure WOTC is aware people are annoyed.
Not usually on the negative side of 4e, but i was disapointed they didnt have the game table and visualizer up. However, its not something im really concerned about, because i had found suitable VTT's before 4e even came out.
I don't see how complaining on the forums will get anything done faster, unless you want something buggier than the character builder, so you can then make threads to complain about that. I'm sure WOTC is aware people are annoyed.
Complaining on these forums is what must be done if Wizards is ever going to be a better company. My problem with Wizards are 2 things - Communication and better use of the DDI web page. These things can be fixed, but not without letting them know that they need to be fixed.
I really don't get the communication issue at all. They seem to be able to freely give us previews of books that are 1 year out with us knowing that there are going to be changes, but can't even give us snipits of information of the Digital Tools.
Product and projects like this never run on schedule, so the fact that it's late doesn't dissappoint me. It's just impossible when you are basically creating something to have it meet a schedule. I know, I've been there.
I don't think that you would find anyone (WotC included) who isn't disappointed that the Game Table isn't out yet. It was (and still is, as far as I am concerned) the crown jewel of WotC's digital initiative.
That being said, I think that most people have accepted the fact that WotC has decided to take a different route in adding value to their digital initiative that may result in the GT being pushed back some.
Bait and switch is a crime. However, WotC hasn't done anything of the sort.
Bait and switch requires that when you go in to buy a product at a cheap price, it isn't available and you get pressured into buying a more expensive product. With DDI, it (the entire suite) was to be available at about $15 a month. It obviously wasn't available. As a matter of fact, even subscribing wasn't available until the beginning of october (IIRC), 4 months later. And then, they aren't trying to push a more expensive product on you. They pretty much say "the GT isn't available, but here is what is available, at it is at a cheaper price than we originally announced."
It was also inferred that I would be able to use my core rulebook purchases to play online with their nice 3D software.
I still have yet to get the full value of my initial purchase.
It was also inferred that I would be able to use my core rulebook purchases to play online with their nice 3D software.
I still have yet to get the full value of my initial purchase.
That was a plan stated at GenCon 2006. That plan was chaged/edit/dropped at DDXP 2007 - a good six months before the release of the books.
People hang on to it though - as if each copy of the hardback had it printed on the cover "Free electronic copy with purchase".
Is it any wonder, then why WotC is being so careful/silent with their plans for the Digital Tools now?
Note, ahelmer, it isn't my intent to single you out here - many people (including those in my own gaming group this past weekend) have brought this point up as well.
To remain on-topic as wavecutter has asked of others.
Yes, I'm disappointed that the DDI:Game Table isn't here yet. I play online (or at least, have played online) with other tools, but I've had my hands on the Game Table at GenCon. Just the pre-alpha features I've seen first hand make me very excited about the entire prospect.
I wish very much for this tool and all the others to be released in full when as soon as possible - but I'm also firmly in the "wait for it to be RIGHT" camp. I don't want it released half-baked. And if the Character Builder is an example of the kind of solid software more patience will buy us, then I'm all for it.
Complaining on these forums is what must be done if Wizards is ever going to be a better company. My problem with Wizards are 2 things - Communication and better use of the DDI web page. These things can be fixed, but not without letting them know that they need to be fixed.
And complaining on the forums is, as you said, one of the ways in which you can express your displeasure towards WotC. Of course, there are ways that are *much* more effective (written letter, using the CS "contact us" form options)
I really don't get the communication issue at all. They seem to be able to freely give us previews of books that are 1 year out with us knowing that there are going to be changes, but can't even give us snipits of information of the Digital Tools.
It is the difference between having 10+ years experience in publishing printed material, and having about 1 years experience working on software.
It was also inferred that I would be able to use my core rulebook purchases to play online with their nice 3D software.
I still have yet to get the full value of my initial purchase.
Not to be flip, but advertisements (*cough*Beer commercials*cough*) promise a lot of things which are then not delivered. If D&D was completely unplayable without DDI, then there might be a case. But D&D is very playable without DDI, and there are many, many options available (both free and not) for people that wish to play online.
There was no malicious intent or deliberate deception involved. WotC thought they would get the software out in time. Obviously, they didn't.
That was a plan stated at GenCon 2006. That plan was chaged/edit/dropped at DDXP 2007 - a good six months before the release of the books.
People hang on to it though - as if each copy of the hardback had it printed on the cover "Free electronic copy with purchase".
Is it any wonder, then why WotC is being so careful/silent with their plans for the Digital Tools now?
Note, ahelmer, it isn't my intent to single you out here - many people (including those in my own gaming group this past weekend) have brought this point up as well.
To remain on-topic as wavecutter has asked of others.
Yes, I'm disappointed that the DDI:Game Table isn't here yet. I play online (or at least, have played online) with other tools, but I've had my hands on the Game Table at GenCon. Just the pre-alpha features I've seen first hand make me very excited about the entire prospect.
I wish very much for this tool and all the others to be released in full when as soon as possible - but I'm also firmly in the "wait for it to be RIGHT" camp. I don't want it released half-baked. And if the Character Builder is an example of the kind of solid software more patience will buy us, then I'm all for it.
Understood, and I dont feel singled out. The forums abound with MANY of us who are dissapointed.
Unfortunately, not all of us checked these boards to confirm that WOTC was still going ahead with their plans on the VTT. I myself saw DDi advertised in the back of the PHB. Looked it up here and saw advertisments on it. Looked it up on YouTube, saw videos. So I made my purchases. I did not dig back in the previous months Ampersand to see that it delayed.
So, for me, my purchases has still not lived up to what I paid.
I understand their position. And they're trying to make smart business decisions from here on out. They've released a GREAT Character builder, of very high quality. And with this economy, they need to keep making money (No evil in that intent). However, I personally know MANY who do not come on these boards or do not come often who are not accurately accounted for in the survey.
Dissapointing for all. But maybe one day we'll see the GameTable. I'll use the character builder and read Dragon/Dungeon until I can actually play the game.
Understood, and I dont feel singled out. The forums abound with MANY of us who are dissapointed.
I must apologize, actually.
I read your post, and replied because my brain told me you'd posted about the fiasco with buying books and getting free electronic copies of the books.
I re-read your post after reading your reply to me and now see you said nothing of the sort.
I blame it on Monday.
There was no malicious intent or deliberate deception involved. WotC thought they would get the software out in time. Obviously, they didn't.
It's near impossible to get built from the ground up software out on time or even meet schedules. Schedules are simply general outlines of best situations.
I'm sorry, but anyone that hasn't has a job, that is basically creating something from scratch or even based on an existing project, has to accept, things never work out as per the schedule.
You can not predict what may happen. You can build buffer room in your schedule, but that can easily be eaten up by everyday issues.
So I'm not dissappointed the GT isn't out yet. Because I can still play without it. I understand some people might live in an area where finding players is hard, and they are looking at the GT as a way not to have to deal with trying to find a few players in their area.
You can't please everyone all the time, and I understand it stinks to be one of the people that have been stuck in that catagory, since often companies know that a choice they make is going to upset either A or B or C, so they pick the choice that will upset the least amount of people. Naturally that doesn't matter if you happen to fall in that catagory.
Thankfuly, since you can't use the GT till it's released, you don't actually have to pay for DDI till it comes out.
I must apologize, actually.
I read your post, and replied because my brain told me you'd posted about the fiasco with buying books and getting free electronic copies of the books.
I re-read your post after reading your reply to me and now see you said nothing of the sort.
I blame it on Monday.
Hahah, no worries. Honestly most of these threads seem to run together, most of it being about dissapointment, Evil empire, end of the world, blah blah, easy to just get a glassy eyed look after awhile.
Apologies to the OP for the derailment. Sorry!
Oh and Mudbunny, 4E *IS* unplayable for me. The only way I will be able to is online. And after showing the wife all the 3D software she was onboard (a sticking point in buying the core books). The other Free VTT wont cut it with her and she refuses to even try.
It is the difference between having 10+ years experience in publishing printed material, and having about 1 years experience working on software.
Your right, that is another way. The only problem being is that there is not a thread that people see and say me too...
The problem with what is quoted above is they had the same issues when 3.0 came out. Remember that disk in the back? Remember all the stuff that was promised way back when? Saying they only have 1 year experience in software is not remembering their track record earlier than 4.0.
All the talk before 4.0 was that they fixed these issues. Apparently not.
And I am happy with what I am getting with DDI. I think the CB is the best character generator I have used.
That does not mean that I am not going to call out Wizards on things that they are doing a bad job of (in the past, and have not been fixed after 8 or 9 years).
I'll do no such thing. Bait and switch is a crime. Now if you'd kindly stick to the topic instead of violating the CoC rule #6.
You don't understand what bait and switch is. Thankfully, mudbunny explained it pretty well. I don't think you care what bait and switch actually is, either. You just wanted something that you could maybejustmaybe pin on WotC. Your language and behavior is radicalized.
You also don't understand CoC rule #6. Your complaint is the topic, and I'm discussing your complaint. You don't get to say "No one who disagrees with me can post here!"
I'm going to break this down for you.
You see WotC announce the VTT and you get excited. Super excited. You wait and wait and wait and it doesn't come out, and so you get disappointed. Super disappointed. And angry. But you're not angry for any real reason. You're angry for the same reason that a five year-old who doesn't get his favorite toy robot for Christmas is angry.
Now, in your fit of anger, you seek a way to discharge it in WotC's direction. You recall that there's an organization which monitors customer disputes: the Better Business Bureau. You file a complaint, and direct others to do so.
The Better Business Bureau has a file for WotC, as it does for most companies. In the last reporting period (36 months) they've received 25 complaints. All but one of those complaints have been resolved to the satisfaction of the Better Business Bureau (though, not surprisingly, a few of them still left the customer - ever brimming with indignant outrage - dissatisfied). They have a B+ rating with the BBB, which is pretty good for a company so often accused of having terrible PR and customer service.
So I'll explain what's going to happen, if anything does. The BBB will begin investigating your claim. They will discover that WotC originally advertised a suite of software for $15 per month. They will discover that the suite of software was not completed on time, but that a portion of it was available. They will discover that, as a result, WotC lowered its per-month cost to $8 until the suite of software is more complete. They will discover that your entire complaint can basically be boiled down to you being angry about not getting something you're not paying for. They will close the case, and explain to you that WotC has taken reasonable steps to resolve the original issue. You will explain that you are still dissatisfied, and you will be told the equivalent of "Tough cookies." The BBB will note in WotC's file the following:
Administratively Closed
1 - BBB determined that despite the company's reasonable effort to address complaint issues, the consumer remained dissatisfied.
And that will be the end of it.
The problem with what is quoted above is they had the same issues when 3.0 came out. Remember that disk in the back? Remember all the stuff that was promised way back when? Saying they only have 1 year experience in software is not remembering their track record earlier than 4.0.
If they had the same software people, the same managers, and had been continually putting out software in the time between 3.0 and 4E, you would be right. But they weren't.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
While I appreciate the desire to control the thread, simply disagreeing with you is not against the CoC. The WotC forums are public forums and, as such, as long as posters follow the CoC, they are allowed to respond to you.
There is nothing wrong with criticism of DDI, and it is thanks, in large part, to the educated critique of forum members that loopholes in the system have been found and fixed. Complaints are also welcomed, as they can be discussed amongst the community and solutions or alternatives recommended.
Unfortunately, there is sometimes a fine line between criticism/complaints and baiting.
In replying to a complaint or concern, it is generally best to give the poster the benefit of the doubt and assume that they have honest intentions. Of course you want to defend your choice in games from attacks. This can be done in a civil manner, however, and there is no need to call into question the motives of another poster. If you feel that a post is nothing more than "baiting", then feel free to add the user to your ignore list and/or report it.
Please, when posting be mindful of the rest of the community. If you think your post is likely to upset a lot of people, it probably will, and then it will probably be reported to the ORCS, and they'lll probably have to close or delete it. In the end, that's your decision to make, but it generally turns out better for everyone involved if you have a pleasant demeanor and keep your posts clear from insults and inflammatory statements.
Everyone on this site shares in the responsibility for making it a respite from the troubles and stress in our daily lives rather than something that adds to them. The ONLY control you have in aiding or abetting this is what you type in the box before you hit submit. Think about what you're doing and remember that what you put out there always dictates what you get back.
Takes off VCL hat
If they had the same software people, the same managers, and had been continually putting out software in the time between 3.0 and 4E, you would be right. But they weren't.
But it doesn't matter. Most software companies do not have the same enmployees over multiple years, much less different version of the software. What about online Magic stuff? I have not followed it, but I have heard that it has had it's problems over the years as well. It is the same company and should learn from their mistakes.
Take for instance Guitar Hero. There has been 2 or 3 software houses that have done various versions of the software. What is the same? The same is that Activision has a process that makes sure things get done.
Why is it so hard to hold them to a higher standard then they are delivering? The same standard that they are meeting with the books? What is stopping them from taking the same philosophy and applying it to the DDI software? I have one word: management.
But it doesn't matter. Most software companies do not have the same enmployees over multiple years, much less different version of the software.
Take for instance Guitar Hero. There has been 2 or 3 software houses that have done various versions of the software. What is the same? The same is that Activision has a process that makes sure things get done.
The difference is that Activision (or Blizzard, or any other company that regularly puts out software) has a corporate wisdom that provides them with the experience in avoiding and recognizing when a project is too hard for the resources applied to it. They can recognize, a long way off, when a project is going well, or when a project is going poorly. WotC didn't have that experience and knowledge when they started on DDI. They tried to do too much too fast and got burnt (Gleemax, DDI not ready) by it. So they changed and learnt from their mistakes. They aren't giving out dates, stating "it will be out when it is ready to be out" (paraphrased).
Is it an answer that I enjoy reading and passing it along, no. Is it an answer that I can live with and accept? Yes. Do I understand that there are users who are very *unhappy* with the way things are being done now? Yes I do. I understand the frustration and anger that is present.
The elimination of the proposed discounted PDF with hardcopy purchase, followed recently by the rescinding of offering any PDFs for sale is 180 degrees away from the original plan at 4th edition launch.
The online table top and character visualizer (based on race and equipment of character builder) were big selling points for the HUGE investment Wizards asked us players to make in doing the 4th edition transfer and buying entire new libraries of books.
I must say I am now curtailing my purchases of new books. I will use the rest of my annual subscription to DDI for compendium and CB exposure to new material when it impacts the builds I am making.
If the DDI does not return to their proposed course (i.e. get enthusiastic and work toward completing the table top) I likely will abandon 4th edition.
I bought the house the developer offered, and it works fine, but where is the shopping, restaurants, and schools that were supposed to be built around here. I won't sell my house right now, but I am not adding more additions or making any improvements. And if the developer doesn't present plans soon that resume the community's original master plan I will be leaving the new home.
I have already made plans to start spending more time in my old house (3.5). I will make that mothballed house livable once again in preparation for a wholesale move back to the old homestead.
I can only hope my financial boycott of further 4th edition items will be felt AND RECOGNIZED as a conscious choice. Although some of the more vocal in the community express disappointment, the new poll and proposed 'punch list' for DDI items does not mesh with what I desired.
I wanted a seemless digital game. I was willing to abandon 3.5 to get that. I did get what I paid for in my 4th edition books, BUT we were lead to expect additional uses for these books and now not only are some of the key tools promised no longer given a nebulous milestone date, they have been pushed back on the punch list for milestones. It seems that we have not gotten a single day closer to getting these tools, and likely the date of their arrival is being pushed back even further.
As a small business owner and entrepreneur I would not expect all my customers to support me if I had a sea change in the development of my product lines.
If the majority of customers continue to support WotC good for them. As for me, I 'signed on' with the expectations that were laid out before me. As the companies plans for the near future of DDI are now changing, I am withdrawing further financial support, but will stick with the community for a while and hope that other that feel as I do speak up and can get WotC to 're-commit' to its initial vision and pursue it as outlined at the launch of 4th edition.
Until then I can only think of the old saying... "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me."
For the price of a couple 4th edition books I can buy licenses for software for my entire gaming group and play 3.5 and I will likely never have to buy another book... ever. I had hoped that the first and only system we would learn would be WotCs, but alas it appears that will not be, unless DDIs priorities can be returned.
With publication of Arcane Power and MM2 which I will not be buying I will have 'saved' enough for to get my digital desktop for my local gaming group.
I will be watching the situation closely, as I still be RPGAing in LFR and have my DDI subscription. But once my DDI subscription lapses if the table top is still nothing more than a pipedream I likely will return to 3.5 fulltime.
I'd only like to add that I'd really love to see this Character Builder I was told so much about. However, the .NET 3.5 requirement removes all possibility of that. I honestly don't understand what WotC stands to gain by promoting that framework, and by extension, the singular company and OS on which the framework can operate. They should be in the market of delivering products and tools to gamers, not attempting to deliver gamers and their dollars to an unaffiliated software corporation. Very disappointing.
-hC
Is it an answer that I enjoy reading and passing it along, no. Is it an answer that I can live with and accept? Yes. Do I understand that there are users who are very *unhappy* with the way things are being done now? Yes I do. I understand the frustration and anger that is present.
Look, I know that you are very optimistic in all this but really. Can you please read what you just said. Everything that you said can be applied towards the ENTIRE business. Not just one facet of it. It has nothing to do with software development, widget making, or how to properly dry paper. The philosophy applies to them all.
It has to do with meeting deadlines and properly communicating when passing these deadlines. It has to do with properly maintaining your website. This would be OK if it didn't happen multiple times before.
At this point in time, NONE of the previous 8 years worth of lessons have been learned. When does it become enough to hold them to a standard they have established in other parts of their business? In 10 more years? 20? But the managers and employees would have most likly have moved on (such is the nature of software as well as alot of other businesses now).
The things I have said above are standard modern business practices that can be applied accross the board with minimal tweaking based upon your business unit.
Yes, I have worked in software, hardware, and manufactureing and I know that it can be difficult. What makes you come out of it is properly communicating with your customer.
Look, I know that you are very optimistic in all this but really. Can you please read what you just said. Everything that you said can be applied towards the ENTIRE business. Not just one facet of it. It has nothing to do with software development, widget making, or how to properly dry paper. The philosophy applies to them all.
It has to do with meeting deadlines and properly communicating when passing these deadlines. It has to do with properly maintaining your website. This would be OK if it didn't happen multiple times before.
At this point in time, NONE of the previous 8 years worth of lessons have been learned. When does it become enough to hold them to a standard they have established in other parts of their business? In 10 more years? 20? But the managers and employees would have most likly have moved on (such is the nature of software as well as alot of other businesses now).
The things I have said above are standard modern business practices that can be applied accross the board with minimal tweaking based upon your business unit.
Yes, I have worked in software, hardware, and manufactureing and I know that it can be difficult. What makes you come out of it is propely communicating with your customer.
While to some, this is a matter of life and death, it really isn't. This is purely entertainment. That's it.
You can't rush entertainment. It's as simple as that. It takes as long as it takes.
Put the complaints about it taking longer then expected in perspective of what you are complaining about.
While to some, this is a matter of life and death, it really isn't. This is purely entertainment. That's it.
You can't rush entertainment. It's as simple as that. It takes as long as it takes.
Put the complaints about it taking longer then expected in perspective of what you are complaining about.
And... thanks for missing the point. What I am trying to do is make Wizards a BETTER company.
I never said it was life or death, and yes, I can put this in perspective. I am a DDI subscriber for 1 year starting in Feb. I waited until the CB came out and I paid for it based on that program. I am getting what I have paid for. This does not mean that Wizards cannot improve.
I have repeatedly said I don't care they missed dates. What I care about is them continually not communicating to their customers. Why can they do this on the books side but not the software side?
Do people really love lower end mediocrity?
Well said, SoM.
I'd only like to add that I'd really love to see this Character Builder I was told so much about. However, the .NET 3.5 requirement removes all possibility of that. I honestly don't understand what WotC stands to gain by promoting that framework, and by extension, the singular company and OS on which the framework can operate. They should be in the market of delivering products and tools to gamers, not attempting to deliver gamers and their dollars to an unaffiliated software corporation. Very disappointing.
-hC
Might I suggest finding a Windows emulator to run the software on. Alternatively, find a Windows-based computer. Alternatively, find a friend with a Windows-based computer.
And, ultimately, take responsibility for your decisions. You were no doubt aware of the pros and cons of adopting an operating system that was not Windows. That decision had repercussions, and your inability to run .NET programs is one such repercussion.
Now, likewise, WotC made a decision in building their software on the .NET platform. They were no doubt aware that a handful of non-Windows users would be unable to use their software. But between you and WotC, only one of you is complaining. WotC seems to be able to live with its decision just fine. You, on the other hand, have a problem with accepting that you are just as much to "blame" for your inability to use the product as WotC is, but you shove that blame squarely onto WotC's shoulders.
It has to do with meeting deadlines and properly communicating when passing these deadlines. It has to do with properly maintaining your website. This would be OK if it didn't happen multiple times before.
It has happened once that I can think of off the top of my head, and that was not being able to release DDI in time for the release of 4E. Oh yeah, they have also missed about 3 or 4 posting deadlines for articles for Dungeon/Dragon magazines. Other than that...Character Builder updates. Good. Compendium updates. Good. Dungeon/Dragon updates. Good.
I am wracking my brain, but I can't think of any other deadlines they have missed.
At this point in time, NONE of the previous 8 years worth of lessons have been learned. When does it become enough to hold them to a standard they have established in other parts of their business? In 10 more years? 20? But the managers and employees would have most likly have moved on (such is the nature of software as well as alot of other businesses now).
As you said,, the managers and employees that were around 10 years ago with the MasterTools (or was it e-Tools...I don't remember) are almost certainly not around now. And if they are, the small amount of experience that they had back then wouldn't mean much now with the radical changes in software and hardware that exist today as compared to back then. If they start setting hard deadlines and not making them, I will have no problem calling them out on it. But they aren't setting deadlines. They have said "We will release it when it is ready to be released". That is the business plan that they have decided on (for the time being) for DDI and the remainder of the tools, and it is one that is not uncommon for many software companies. Bioware just pushed back Dragon Age by 6 months, and they are, no one will dispute, a top maker of software.
The things I have said above are standard modern business practices that can be applied accross the board with minimal tweaking based upon your business unit.
I don't think that it is as easy as you think it is. Knowledge and experience of problems, pitfalls and possible delays in print products cannot be moved over with only "minor tweaking" to software production. The very general management practices, maybe, but the specific ones that really have an impact on how long projects take, not so much IMO.
Yes, I have worked in software, hardware, and manufactureing and I know that it can be difficult. What makes you come out of it is properly communicating with your customer.
And I have been quite clear in saying that I think that WotC needs to communicate more.
While to some, this is a matter of life and death, it really isn't. This is purely entertainment. That's it.
You can't rush entertainment. It's as simple as that. It takes as long as it takes.
Put the complaints about it taking longer then expected in perspective of what you are complaining about.
So while WOTC is "busy" perfecting this entertainment. Compaines like pazio, White Wolf, Dwarven Forge start using the interent and computer to make really good tools for there products. WOTC is left in the dust, and because of there delays, will go under.
Mudbunny, it seems to me when people vent about the frustration with the DnD computer tools, they do remember what happened with Etools/ master tools. We are including that because it looks like that all over again. It may be totally diffeent people working on DDi then was Master tools. But the same stuff is happening. No comucation with the public and a shotty product at the end after WOTC promised us the world. You think WOTC would have learned, but they keep doing the same things. Thats why most of use are upset.
Add to that the fact it seems WOTC is going to drop the 3 other promised tools without a word. They used carefully worded survey questions to make it seem like the customers did not want those 3 other tools so they would have an excuse to drop them.
So while WOTC is "busy" perfecting this entertainment. Compaines like pazio, White Wolf, Dwarven Forge start using the interent and computer to make really good tools for there products. WOTC is left in the dust, and because of there delays, will go under.
Paizo doesn't develop software. Dwarven Forge doesn't develop software. I don't believe White Wolf develops software in-house.
If anyone is being "left in the dust", it's these other companies who are doing little - if anything - to hybridize the tabletop genre.
Mudbunny, it seems to me when people vent about the frustration with the DnD computer tools, they do remember what happened with Etools/ master tools. We are including that because it looks like that all over again.
If that's your sole concern, you can safely put it to rest now. We've had the Character Builder out for months. It is almost universally considered the best D&D character creation software made to date, and all of its updates (including a recent major update with the Player's Handbook 2) have come out on time.
It may be totally diffeent people working on DDi then was Master tools. But the same stuff is happening.
No, it's not.
No comucation with the public and a shotty product at the end after WOTC promised us the world.
Shoddy product? Tell me, which of the following products that they've released have been shoddy: Compendium, Dungeon Magazine, Dragon Magazine, Character Builder. All of these have been of very high quality. You're being incredibly unreasonable.
You think WOTC would have learned, but they keep doing the same things. Thats why most of use are upset.
Except they aren't doing the same things. They haven't missed a deadline in nearly a year, and the past year has been full of deadlines that they have made. Again, you are being unreasonable. It's like you're just looking for ways to criticize WotC.
Add to that the fact it seems WOTC is going to drop the 3 other promised tools without a word. They used carefully worded survey questions to make it seem like the customers did not want those 3 other tools so they would have an excuse to drop them.
That's not what they did, at all.
As you said,, the managers and employees that were around 10 years ago with the MasterTools (or was it e-Tools...I don't remember) are almost certainly not around now.
It started off as MasterTools, then through the whole process (which started to resemble a train wreck about 3/4 of the way through) it de-evolved into eTools. This I remember because PCGen was officially announced to the public at the same GenCon and I bought a copy of eTools to see if it compared (Visually and User Interface it won hands-down, the functionally PCGen was defintely better though).
If that's your sole concern, you can safely put it to rest now. We've had the Character Builder out for months. It is almost universally considered the best D&D character creation software made to date, and all of its updates (including a recent major update with the Player's Handbook 2) have come out on time.
Well I'd argue that point but since it's very subjective and mostly based on opinion it's a moot point. Plus I'm a bit biased. :D
Well I'd argue that point but since it's very subjective and mostly based on opinion it's a moot point. Plus I'm a bit biased. :D
Even if you don't think it's the best character creator ever, it is objectively a very solid piece of software. And the fact that its updates have been released on schedule is not something that can be debated. Concerns about timetables and quality should be put to rest, at this point.
I really don't get the communication issue at all. They seem to be able to freely give us previews of books that are 1 year out with us knowing that there are going to be changes, but can't even give us snipits of information of the Digital Tools.
It is the difference between having 10+ years experience in publishing printed material, and having about 1 years experience working on software.
You've used this line of argument before Mudbunny, but I'm going to have to call nonsense on it this time.
As much as I dislike it, programming is hard work. Things can get delayed quite a bit depending on what happens. I get that. But good communication is a skill not dependent on what you're selling, and that is what's so irksome about it. I mean, all they'd need to do is get a hold of one of the guys who works with PR for the books and ask them how they do it. What's the worst that can happen?
"Hey, we're the DDi guys and we can't seem to get a good reputation with our customers like you guys do. Got any tips?"
"Yeah, I'd love to talk but uh... we're currently uh.. playing table badminton. Gotta go."
It's the digital age where information flows much faster than before, yeah. Instead of providing monthly paperback magazines, it's now ezines. Instead of angry letters, it's angry emails and forum threads. Doesn't seem to be much different. How much has the art of good communication skills really changed?
PS: This is really the only gripe I have with DDi. I like the content I'm currently paying for, and I do intend to use to Game Table. Problem is with the lack of info the Game Table appears to be as alive as Schrodinger's Cat.
Add to that the fact it seems WOTC is going to drop the 3 other promised tools without a word. They used carefully worded survey questions to make it seem like the customers did not want those 3 other tools so they would have an excuse to drop them.
This is what they decided to work on now: "This includes monsters, encounters, maps and adventures". Dungeon Builder? Sounds like it, even if it's an more advanced version than they originally announced.
[INDENT]"* Tool to create character portraits: 69% of subscribers
* Tool to play tabletop D&D over the Internet: 67% of subscribers"
"* Tool to play tabletop D&D over the internet: 46% of non-subscribers
* Tool to create character portraits: 41% of non-subscribers"[/INDENT]
70% of subscribers and nearly 50% of non-subscribers polled still want the game table and character visualizer. That says people still want them.
Disappointed for passing completely of the community complainings about that and this absurd leak of information..., now we can assume that they won't give any information about this new tool they will release, as they did with the VTT, but at least we know that they will do it, we can't say the same of the promised software that was before this tool.
Not mention about the PDF issue, for me another of their absurds ideas, but a minor fiasco comparing with the VTT and rest of the online content.
It's a pity that no one has denounced them to force them to give answers for the people that pays them.
Nothing new to add here, just to say that I am very, very disappointed with Wotc, concerning the VTT and their poll to see what people wanted to be released first, since I see it as an ugly cover to divert the problem.
Disappointed for passing completely of the community complainings about that and this absurd leak of information..., now we can assume that they won't give any information about this new tool they will release, as they did with the VTT, but at least we know that they will do it, we can't say the same of the promised software that was before this tool.
Not mention about the PDF issue, for me another of their absurds ideas, but a minor fiasco comparing with the VTT and rest of the online content.
It's a pity that no one has denounced them to force them to give answers for the people that pays them.
I can agree with almost everything said here.
BUT WotC can do whatever they want with changing direction and emphasis in their product development.
The dog and pony show they used to get us to buy into the system revision and give them the initial support to "get 'er done" I thought was a fine business tact. Although it might seem like a bait and switch, these were only implied promises and not firm commitments. They can feel free change gears now.
I cannot fault many of those thought the financial commitment of this initial buy-in and product purchase was supposed to be funding the development of the CB, CV, and VTT. The CB got developed, perhaps a little later than we hoped, but still very nice. Now the next two tools that the community was assuming they were funding as stated at 4th edition launch, are not just being delayed for quality reasons, but are being displaced as the 'next in que' items. I understand why some of those who expected to the promised tools are now feeling like a bunch of suckers.
I would not fault them if they soured so severely on WotC that they never buy another product. This is not whining, it is a reaction one can expect, and all should respect.
If WotC feels that a small margin in a poll soothes their conscience and helps them justifying their taking the easier path in development projects then WotC is risking the ostracizing of this potentially large group of core supporters. Actions do have consequences.
WotC can certainly do this if they want to. It is their business. But I do not see anyone being upset over the lack of additional GM tools that were not on the original agenda list. I do see folks expressing displeasure and feeling of betrayal over the apparent abandoning of the VTT. I scratch my head at their decision, but I am not privvy to all the data they have in making this decision.
If WotC is worried about third party sniping in the GM tool market, then perhaps they should hire someone to develop the software and get both the the previously promised and the new GM tools all in the pipeline to satisfy both their promises to customers that have demonstrated their loyalty and to try and expand their audience.
Whatever WotC does, they are the ones responsible for creating this situation and they will make what ever decision they feel is best depending on whatever criteria they deem most important.
But I do not want to hear anyone saying those that feel betrayed are a bunch of whiners. They have a right to feel they way they do, and at least they have stuck around to express themselves. Perhaps they should be listened to, as they may represent many more folks that will just pack their things and go.
But that said, the other D&DI content has been so well done that I'm willing to wait for the team to handle what they can handle, and produce quality finished work when they are able to do so.
The only thing is they say nothing they talk about nothing. So people decide to thing its vaporware because that's what it is.
I know there are other companies out there Bioware being one that doesn't give out release dates too often that way they can get the project done. The big difference there is that They give the fans something to look forward too.
Wizards you are failing with the people that will make this product excel your fans. Very sad.
Even this poll could have been manipulated, or why they suggest for a new tool that wasn't in the premises of the 4e announcement?
Why didn't they put only the promised tools to be voted?
Why to ask people about the tool they want first if they have already demonstrated how much they care about the people opinion?
One think it's clear for me, even if they ever release what a lot of us are waiting for, they already fail to me as company.
For me the real wotc policy is: "Time heals everything".
Even this poll could have been manipulated, or why they suggest for a new tool that wasn't in the premises of the 4e announcement?
Why didn't they put only the promised tools to be voted?
In one of my previous Directed Discussion threads (Directed Discussion - Next tool to be worked on), the question was asked: "What tool would you like to see WotC work on next". There was a significant number of responses that were asking for a "campaign manager"-style tool. One that could be used by DMs to collate a bunch of other minor tools together.
In one of my previous Directed Discussion threads (Directed Discussion - Next tool to be worked on), the question was asked: "What tool would you like to see WotC work on next". There was a significant number of responses that were asking for a "campaign manager"-style tool. One that could be used by DMs to collate a bunch of other minor tools together.
The problem I see with the way you pose that question, not having seen the thread itself, is that you ask what would you like to see WotC work on NEXT--i.e. AFTER the stuff that has already been promised, which we presume (hope?) is ALREADY being worked on.
-hC
From the thread I linked to:
So, what would you like to see WotC work on next, and why?
We have
- Dungeon Builder;
- Game Table; and
- Character Visualizer.
Personally, I would like to see the Dungeon Builder worked on next. While the Game Table is nice, and I would love to see it come out next, I think that the biggest bang for the buck would be the Dungeon Builder. It would be usable for both people playing online, people playing face to face and, when the GT is out, be imported into the game table.
I would then have WotC work on both the Game Table and the Character visualizer more or less at the same time. Both appear to be fairly graphics-intensive (especially the CV) and they technologies and programming that you learn in one will be very helpful in the other. Working on them simultaneously will, IMO, only improve the final result in both. Once they get into Beta Stage, focus most of the effort on the Game Table, and then finish up the visualizer afterwards.
The problem I see with the way you pose that question, not having seen the thread itself, is that you ask what would you like to see WotC work on NEXT--i.e. AFTER the stuff that has already been promised, which we presume (hope?) is ALREADY being worked on.
-hC
Here is the first paragraph of the first post of that thread:
Since the WoTC folks seem to be uncertain which of the three remaining DDI projects to start on next, I would like to place my vote for the Dungeon Builder. This is the only remaining piece that I think they could roll out in a realistic time frame and would be useful and potentially worth paying more money for.
This was the original first post of the thread before it was merged with another thread:
So, what would you like to see WotC work on next, and why?
We have
1. Dungeon Builder;
2. Game Table; and
3. Character Visualizer.
The thread started as talking about the three missing tools.
GJ on getting something. The OP still totally ignored the virtual tabletop though.
Not a great confidence boost among VTT fans.
How was it ignored? It is mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. It says that the VTT and visualizer are on hold at least until the campaign tools are satisfactorily finished.
How was it ignored? It is mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. It says that the VTT and visualizer are on hold at least until the campaign tools are satisfactorily finished.
You mean this paragraph...
Previously, we focused all of our energies and effort into making the Character Builder the best tool it could be. We're going to continue that focused effort as we move forward - we're just shifting our attention to the Campaign Tools. This means that we're not actively working on any other unreleased tools, which includes the game table and the character visualizer. Once we have the Campaign Tools out and we're as happy with them as we are with the Character Builder, we'll have a better idea of what our next step is.
So although the game table is mentioned, the mention basically says it it being ignored.
Saying or implying you are going to be ignoring something is not the same as ignoring it?
Sounds like a Catch-22 to me. Sounds like something a RAW thumping munchkin might say as he makes outrageous mind-bending rules interpretations. I say if you ignore something by omission or admission, IT IS IGNORED.There is no set priority as to what is next in que after campaign, as plainly stated here (so more interruptions can easily be inserted as no promises are made, too bad VTT fans). No current level of development of the gametable is mentioned to even give us hope.
I still say the matter of the VTT is a reasonable sore spot for many customers that should be addressed and has so far been ignored. So far these VTT fans among WotC's customers have been ignored, and this release/OP continues to ignore their VTT concerns.
Tell me, what does this do for the VTT fans out there? What confidence does this instill? Sure seems like VTT is being ignored here.
So although the game table is mentioned, the mention basically says it it being ignored.
Tell me, what does this do for the VTT fans out there? What confidence does this instill? Sure seems like VTT is being ignored here.
Business priorities change. I don't mean to be rude or flip, but it is a part of life and people just have to accept it and move on[1]. WotC has decided that the priorities for DDI needed to be changed. Note that I am not saying move on in the "leave the forums" point of view, but move on in that people need to carry on with their lives.
No matter what decisions WotC has made or will make, people *will* be disappointed. Currently, the decision they have made is disappointing you. The next decision they make may disappoint me, and the one after that may disappoint other people.
Tell me, what does this do for the VTT fans out there? What confidence does this instill? Sure seems like VTT is being ignored here.
You'll get your day in the sun eventually.
And if not, that's just how the cookie crumbles, I'm afraid.
Dragon magazine itself has some pay content that I want. I like the court of stars articles, the monster roles articles, crunchy bits like the familiars article, and the racial writeups. I also enjoy the skill challenge articles. However, there doesn't seem to be quite enough of this for me right now. If the dungeon builder were here, or the character visualizer (good for NPC's too), or if this campaign management tool can actually speed up my prep time or help me run a game, I'll come back gladly (though not if the price goes up to 15 dollars). Until then, I wish wizards best of luck with DDI, but it's not for me. I'm not at all interested in the VTT because I am playing with Fantasy Grounds II right now and I can't see wizards VTT being so superior to FG2 that I'd pay a 15 dollar monthly subscription, let alone convincing 5 players to do so. Not when we can each pay 20 dollars once and play until doomsday.
What I really want right now is the dungeon builder, if it included all the dungeon tile sets they put out so far. I have dunjinni, but I'd like to have the official D&D dungeon tiles that I can use for my online game.
You mean this paragraph...
So although the game table is mentioned, the mention basically says it it being ignored.
Saying or implying you are going to be ignoring something is not the same as ignoring it?
There is no set priority as to what is next in que after campaign, as plainly stated here (so more interruptions can easily be inserted as no promises are made, too bad VTT fans). No current level of development of the gametable is mentioned to even give us hope.
I still say the matter of the VTT is a reasonable sore spot for many customers that should be addressed and has so far been ignored. So far these VTT fans among WotC's customers have been ignored, and this release/OP continues to ignore their VTT concerns.
Tell me, what does this do for the VTT fans out there? What confidence does this instill? Sure seems like VTT is being ignored here.
First off, I have to quibble with your tense in your post then. You said he "ignored it" not that THEY "are ignoring it". You referred directly to the OP. The OP did not in fact ignore the VTT, he mentioned it and was very up front about its status. While true that the development team "is ignoring" the VTT by not actively working on it, that does not necessarily mean we will NEVER see it.
Besides, I didnt want a VTT and have no use for one, ever, so it is no skin off my nose. I want the campaign tools ASAP, so I am a happy camper. So sorry about your precious VTT.
Business priorities change. I don't mean to be rude or flip, but it is a part of life and people just have to accept it and move on[1]. WotC has decided that the priorities for DDI needed to be changed. Note that I am not saying move on in the "leave the forums" point of view, but move on in that people need to carry on with their lives.
No matter what decisions WotC has made or will make, people *will* be disappointed. Currently, the decision they have made is disappointing you. The next decision they make may disappoint me, and the one after that may disappoint other people.
I do not mean to be rude either but you have to cater to your customers. I am not saying you have to prostrate yourself, but you certainly cannot secure initial sales of a product line after you make a theatrical sales pitch about about the next products that are coming, and then change product development and think you do not owe those customers that got your line going an explanation.
I happen to own a business. So I know of what I speak. It is what I do for living. However, I prefer to speak from the perspective of the wounded customer.
I have plainly said that WotC can run their business anyway they want to. It is their right. I certainly want no one to tell me how to run my business. I merely have been trying to point out what I see as %!$$ poor public relations. As a disgruntled customer I expressed what they could do to keep my interest in their apparent abandonment of the 'coming attraction' that drew me to support them.
I do not think I am asking too much considering my son and I spend (spent) so much (~$100/month gaming, mostly on WotC, and nearly three grand budgeted to attend conventions and dealer room purchases). I do not hide my disappointment. It is clear. Somebody just jumped the line ahead of us, and we are told that there is no guarantee that it won't happen again.
Whatever their reasons, I can see that WotC has guaranteed themselves that they will PO someone since they current development schedule bypasses other products. Do promises have stale dates where you can ignore them?
Trevor's post gave a solid assurance to the campaign tools crowd that they are next in line.
Why cannot the VTT, who have been in line for so very long, not get at least some sort of guarantee that they will immediately follow? What assurances do we have at all that VTT will ever be produced? Being on the punch list has ZERO value because new items can be added to the list ad infinitum.
I await an authoritive answer before I begin speculation.
I await an authoritive answer before I begin speculation.
Dude, wtf is up with threatening specualtion? What do you hope to gain by wildly throwing out some theory focussed on whether or not Oswald acted alone?
Someone has a way too high appraisal of their value.
Here's the way it is. I bought into 4e and DDi DESPITE the advertising of the VTT and visualizer, 2 apps I have ZERO interest in. You bought in because of them. Well, guess what? I got happy news that they have put those back to the end of the line, and you got bad news.
It happens to all of us at some point.
If your complaining were to get them to completely reverse their position (which thankfully it will not) then I am left out in the cold. Then what? Am I suppose to come on here and endlessly rant about having some mythical rug yanked out from under me?
Seems like a vicious cyclical canard that we need to stop before it starts.
First off, I have to quibble with your tense in your post then. You said he "ignored it" not that THEY "are ignoring it". You referred directly to the OP. The OP did not in fact ignore the VTT, he mentioned it and was very up front about its status. While true that the development team "is ignoring" the VTT by not actively working on it, that does not necessarily mean we will NEVER see it.
Besides, I didnt want a VTT and have no use for one, ever, so it is no skin off my nose. I want the campaign tools ASAP, so I am a happy camper. So sorry about your precious VTT.
Firstly, gratz on getting the tools wanted. I am sure you will be pleased. I will be seeing them too as I am paid for several more months (bought a year, but removed auto renewal today). I bet I will enjoy and be happy too.
In fact the tools may see more use by me than the VVT would have.
So why complain? Because promises (even implied ones) mean something! The precedent set by the insertion of a new project into the punch list that floats to the top DOES imply that it can happen again and with no apologies made or even hinted at (just being ignored by admission) it is certain that VTT is seeing more delays now and can see even more in the future (and do not forget to add software developer delays in their schedule too IF VTT ever gets greenlighted).
I could stomach development problems, as I did with the CB. But when the calendar is now shuffled back by other projects I get the sense that the enthusiasm for VTT is gone. If they won't even say "VTT is right after the campaign tools software" then I still feel justified in my suspicions.
I only am asking to be disproved from someone who knows. Trevor is doing what he can to explain, but the answers give no assurance to VTTs future. I am sure he has to practice CYA so I won't press. I appreciate that he responded at all. I hope that someone higher up does at least show VTT some love and place it in the slot after campaign tools as a certainty.
Why cannot the VTT, who have been in line for so very long, not get at least some sort of guarantee that they will immediately follow? What assurances do we have at all that VTT will ever be produced? Being on the punch list has ZERO value because new items can be added to the list ad infinitum.
I think the sea-change hurts WotC's goodwill with some of its customer base, no doubt. I don't have a dog in this fight (I have a VTT and campaign management system already), but goodwill is hard to win back, and they've lost a not-insignificant amount of mine. I frankly don't really believe deep-down they'll finish the campaign tools, either.
On the other hand, I don't think anybody rates any guarantees here, no matter how long a product has been in the wings.
I liken it to hearing a sales pitch at a car dealer showing me the coolest dvd/mp3/gps system I have ever seen that comes with the new model. When I show up to buy the car, the dealer says "hey, that gizmo hasn't come in yet, but it will be here soon and you can pick it up then." I buy the car and then the dealer says.... nothing. A year later he calls and says, "hey, we know you really bought that car for the dvd/mps/gps gizmo, but a bunch of other people say they want fur-lined cupholders so we are gonna stop working on the gizmo and get to work on the cupholders." Yes I still have a car I can drive around, and I can go buy some dvd/mp3/gps gizmo somewhere else, but it's nothing like the one the car dealer showed and I feel very let down.
Dude, wtf is up with threatening specualtion? What do you hope to gain by wildly throwing out some theory focussed on whether or not Oswald acted alone?
If VTT has a firm future why is that not being expressed? I want to give Wizards a chance to assure they are still going to energetically pursue VTT's development. If they won't do that simple thing, then anyone (including me) can speculate why their enthusiasm for the project seems diminished. Why are you seeing conspiracy theories here anyway? Is someone's tinfoil hat on too tight?
Someone has a way too high appraisal of their value.
Not quite nine figures ATM. This is after I through a divorce. But still it only real estate valuations that cost me digit number nine. So I guess you could say with recent fall in net worth that I (via my accountant) no longer have such a high appraisal of myself. Thanks for reminding me. Ouch. You wound me.:P
Here's the way it is. I bought into 4e and DDi DESPITE the advertising of the VTT and visualizer, 2 apps I have ZERO interest in. You bought in because of them. Well, guess what? I got happy news that they have put those back to the end of the line, and you got bad news.
It happens to all of us at some point.
If your complaining were to get them to completely reverse their position (which thankfully it will not) then I am left out in the cold. Then what? Am I suppose to come on here and endlessly rant about having some mythical rug yanked out from under me?
Seems like a vicious cyclical canard that we need to stop before it starts.
If you have points to make, any rant is welcome. If you do not value what I have to say then simply do not reply and you won't have suffer further responses and the volume you will have read on this thread will be reduced.
As for my expectations... my genuine expectations... how about WotC actually manning up and saying exactly what is going on with those items presented in the DDI presentation!
I do not even care if it all bad news. OK so call these off the cuff remarks below speculation. Maybe posters that feel threatened can sleep tonight.
WotC could just say...
PDFs - No pdfs for the foreseeable future. Program derailed by pirate activities.
CV- Due to low interest and intensive programming resources this project is no longer feasible. It will be kept as an item on our interest polls to determine if community interest makes it viable.
VTT- The intense resources to develop this software could produce two other projects currently of high interest. Due to the combined interest in these other projects, they will be finished ahead of VTT.
Would this be soooo difficult to announce?
I started this post so that all disgruntled parties could have a central thread to express their frustration....
It's too bad the virtual tabletop appears to be scrapped. It would have been a nice alternative to Maptool if it had lived up to the hope of integrating official D&D rules into the program.
On the other hand, I'm rather liking all the other parts of DDi as a whole. The Compendium and Character Builder are extremely handy for me as a DM, and I like that I get the Dragon/Dungeon subscriptions thrown in as well. And, since only one person in a gaming group actually needs to subscribe to allow the group as a whole to use the DDi features, we can split the cost of the subscription between the group if desired.
So I'd say I'm disappointed they couldn't get the tabletop working, but I'm quite happy with the rest of it. I'd say their only mistake was in prematurely overhyping the tabletop as a major feature before they were sure they could get it released at a reasonable price.
It's too bad the virtual tabletop appears to be scrapped. It would have been a nice alternative to Maptool if it had lived up to the hope of integrating official D&D rules into the program.
On the other hand, I'm rather liking all the other parts of DDi as a whole. The Compendium and Character Builder are extremely handy for me as a DM, and I like that I get the Dragon/Dungeon subscriptions thrown in as well. And, since only one person in a gaming group actually needs to subscribe to allow the group as a whole to use the DDi features, we can split the cost of the subscription between the group if desired.
So I'd say I'm disappointed they couldn't get the tabletop working, but I'm quite happy with the rest of it. I'd say their only mistake was in prematurely overhyping the tabletop as a major feature before they were sure they could get it released at a reasonable price.
It hasn't been scrapped.
It hasn't been scrapped.
Maybe you're right, but then again maybe you're wrong. Note that all official mention of the upcoming tabletop was removed from the DDi page. They used to have it listed as an "upcoming feature" on the website, and all that information has been deleted. It also mysteriously hasn't been mentioned in any of the DDi newsletters in a fairly long time. You'd think if they still planned to release the tabletop client they would have kept some or all that info available. And lastly note that they would probably not publicly say if they scrapped the tabletop client (companies like to make noise about projects they are planning to release, but usually remain fairly silent about projects that they are no longer actively working on. )
But hey, if you have an official quote from WotC somewhere that says the tabletop is still in development, feel free to post it and prove it's not scrapped. Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to be proven wrong about that.
But hey, if you have an official quote from WotC somewhere that says the tabletop is still in development, feel free to post it and prove it's not scrapped. Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to be proven wrong about that.
The statement is that they are "not actively developing" the game table. The best one can hope for from that is that developers are allowed to play with it in their free time. So, no formal statement "this has been canceled," but for all practical purposes?
There is no reason why they would completely scrap it. Sure, it may not come out for several years (this is an exaggeration, I would put the upper bound at the end of 2010), but they have a mostly-complete application that they've put a lot of money into making. They aren't just going to throw it out when there's still a market for it.
A glimpse of the future of WotC: "Hey everyone, I know you all spent tons of cash on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, and 4th eition! However, this year, 2012, we will be introducing 5th edition complete with a VTT! Really, we promise this time!"
There is no reason why they would completely scrap it. Sure, it may not come out for several years (this is an exaggeration, I would put the upper bound at the end of 2010), but they have a mostly-complete application that they've put a lot of money into making. They aren't just going to throw it out when there's still a market for it.
Actually, from my limited understanding of economics, the money spent on it so far is sunk cost and shouldn't really be a large factor in their decision to release it or can it. If WotC decides that it is more cost-effective to let that money go (and stop throwing good money after bad, so to speak), then they may indeed scrap it.
Actually, from my limited understanding of economics, the money spent on it so far is sunk cost and shouldn't really be a large factor in their decision to release it or can it. If WotC decides that it is more cost-effective to let that money go (and stop throwing good money after bad, so to speak), then they may indeed scrap it.
Speaking in generalities, yes. Sometimes, this is true. Sometimes it is a financial decision.
And sometimes code might have been badly planned (or new devs are asked to finish someone else's work) and the project gets so buggy or slow/inefficient that it becomes viable to scrap the entire project and start from scratch with tighter code. A tight rewrite under a single group of devs can be preferable to a legacy project passed down through multiple teams even if costs more. And it the original is reaching the CF (C= cluster) stage and destined for the scrap heap, then resuming the project can potentially be a bigger economic liability.