A friend of mine wanted to show me the new character builder at work. Looks like WotC has screwed the pooch again with Character Builder. Everyone wanted it to run on any platform. I can't run it on Mac or Linux without downloading code from Microsoft, and in the case of Linux it's not even an option for me(s390x architecture at work is my only internet access). I'm sorry, but there is a reason why most of us on Mac's or running Linux are not using Microsoft products. It's because Microsoft does things badly. Hell, even Microsoft is dropping support for Silverlight. It was a bad product. WotC seems to be really good at making bad decisions. I think at this point that I'm done with WotC all together. I'm off to half price books to unload my 4E books. I'm going to be looking for a new RPG.
PS:I've been playing D&D since the cardstock chainmail books. I've always been pro new edition rules every edition till now. I have each an every edition rule books going all the way back. This is the first time I've ever considered getting rid of any of my books. I've thought long and hard about this and there is really no other option than to let the dying game die. I will be looking for an other game system to play. I've heard good things about Savage Worlds and Pathfinder. I think I'll start looking at those.
Fairwell.
Hi all,
A friend of mine wanted to show me the new character builder at work. Looks like WotC has screwed the pooch again with Character Builder. Everyone wanted it to run on any platform. I can't run it on Mac or Linux without downloading code from Microsoft, and in the case of Linux it's not even an option for me(s390x architecture at work is my only internet access). I'm sorry, but there is a reason why most of us on Mac's or running Linux are not using Microsoft products. It's because Microsoft does things badly. Hell, even Microsoft is dropping support for Silverlight. It was a bad product. WotC seems to be really good at making bad decisions. I think at this point that I'm done with WotC all together. I'm off to half price books to unload my 4E books. I'm going to be looking for a new RPG.
PS:I've been playing D&D since the cardstock chainmail books. I've always been pro new edition rules every edition till now. I have each an every edition rule books going all the way back. This is the first time I've ever considered getting rid of any of my books. I've thought long and hard about this and there is really no other option than to let the dying game die. I will be looking for an other game system to play. I've heard good things about Savage Worlds and Pathfinder. I think I'll start looking at those.
Fairwell.
You could have easily placed this in one of several other threads where people are disclosing their displeasure with the recent changes.
Dont let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya. Wave
I figured you being an old timer and all you could appreciate this phrase.
Good luck. It's better to play a real RPG than a wargame/MMORPG that's pretending to be an RPG.
Completely and utterly false, and is nothing but an attempt at starting another flame/edition war.
There are numerous other threads where people are indicating that they have stopped their subscription without necessitating the use of Company/Edition Wars. I don't want to lock this trhead, but if it conitinues in the same direction, I will do so.
Good luck. It's better to play a real RPG than a wargame/MMORPG that's pretending to be an RPG.
Completely and utterly false, and is nothing but an attempt at starting another flame/edition war.
That's your opinion which has just as much value as mine.
Good luck. It's better to play a real RPG than a wargame/MMORPG that's pretending to be an RPG.
Completely and utterly false, and is nothing but an attempt at starting another flame/edition war.
That's your opinion which has just as much value as mine.
It isn't a matter of opinion, though. The fact is, there's nothing you can do in previous editions "roleplay wise" that you can't do with 4e. It is not an mmo. You don't log on and play with thousands of other people, there are no monster respawn rules, there's no sitting in chat channels talking to other people, there's no farming for items. Calling it an mmorpg is nothing but flamebait. It has a highly tactical combat system, but that does not make a wargame. It just makes the combat system in 4e more dynamic than previous editions. You can still run a game without ever seeing combat, and the rules support that.
dnd.chrisnye.net/Sessions/FriFG_Session2...
There is the log from my last session. It's a 4e game. There's roughly 30 pages (4 1/2 hours) of content there. Not one single weapon drawn. Your opinion of it being a wargame is invalidated. Either that, or we're somehow doing it wrong.
As for the OP, I understand why you're disgruntled. I've cancelled DDI myself, and I'm waiting to see if the finalized Executioner is any good. The playtest was great, the first "final" version was terrible. Dragon content has gone downhill lately, and a really good Executioner article will at least renew my faith to sub for another month.
ps talok if u have 4 hour encounters your team is just bad, no other explanation. hope that helps!
In theory you can do as much or little roleplay with any system. The reality is that the more the rules focus on the battlemat, and "powers" and "skill challenges" the less emphasis is placed on the characters, the story, and their part in it. That's just the way it happens. I've played enough LFR to experience this firsthand. A 4E character usually ends up being a collection of numbers and "powers" loosely connected to a mini you move around a battlegrid in fights that end up feeling pointless, monotonous, and take way too long. If you spend 4 out of 5 hours of your roleplaying time for the week on two lousy combats, are you really going to be doing much roleplaying, exploring, problem solving or anything that actually advances the story line or character development? Of course you aren't because you don't have enough time or energy left for it. Even the out of combat utility spells that were so intersting in previous editions have been repalced by rituals which are so boring, useless, and expensive that most people ignore them. The fact is the system you use does matter. Certain systems steer the players towards certain playstyles, and 4E steers you towards constant combat broken up by the occasional skill challenge. That's just the way it ends up, and it's very hard not to have it end up that way. It's like going against the grain. I've seen single 4E encounters take four hours. Not a session, but one encounter. It's hard to do anything but combat in 4E because combat takes so long. In my opinion, 4E makes a passable minis wargame, but a lousy RPG.
Huh, that's strange. I run a game once a week and play in two others. We role play every session. Maybe you're doing something wrong.
toodle-oo evic, good luck in life
ps talok if u have 4 hour encounters your team is just bad, no other explanation. hope that helps!
Depends on how the encounter is designed. I'm running a 5+ hour, multi-tiered skill challenge on Sunday that is going to be a blast (I hope
).Now frothsof, shouldn't you be prepping some more VT sessions???
I jest. I look forward to the next one, though!...horrendously unbalanced math...
So fix it.
...bad encounter design...
So make your own.
There were also some horrible mechanics on the monster's side, which unfortuantely, isn't unusual for 4E monsters.
So... play something else?
I did witness the horrendous 4 hour paragon slugfest, and I have to say that much of the blame falls on the horrendously unbalanced math of 4E plus bad encounter design sprinkled with too much difficult terrain. There were also some horrible mechanics on the monster's side, which unfortuantely, isn't unusual for 4E monsters.
My game has had encounters that have lasted 2-3 hours. Don't think we ever got to a 4 hour encounter, and they were fun the whole time. We all agreed, that while the encounter took a long time (1 DM, 5 players, cleric/ranger, gnome bard, tiefling thief, dragonborn paladin, and halfelf inferrnal warlock), the fact that the battle often went back and forth on who was winning or kicking the most ass really made it interesting. They were never just slugfest to beat down the players hit points.
toodle-oo evic, good luck in life
ps talok if u have 4 hour encounters your team is just bad, no other explanation. hope that helps!
Depends on how the encounter is designed. I'm running a 5+ hour, multi-tiered skill challenge on Sunday that is going to be a blast (I hope ).
Now frothsof, shouldn't you be prepping some more VT sessions??? I jest. I look forward to the next one, though!
lol
...horrendously unbalanced math...
So fix it....bad encounter design...
So make your own.There were also some horrible mechanics on the monster's side, which unfortuantely, isn't unusual for 4E monsters.
So... play something else?
So after paying for WotC's books and a ddi subscription (thankfully I'm no longer doing either) I'm supposed to do the work the game designers failed to do correctly. That sounds like a great waste of my money and time. I'll pass. If I have to rework the whole system with house rules to make it work, what did I pay the money for in the first place? I do intend to play another system. Pathfinder works much better for me. BTW. It was LFR so making an encounter on our own technically wasn't an option.
...horrendously unbalanced math...
So fix it....bad encounter design...
So make your own.There were also some horrible mechanics on the monster's side, which unfortuantely, isn't unusual for 4E monsters.
So... play something else?
So after paying for WotC's books and a ddi subscription (thankfully I'm no longer doing either) I'm supposed to do the work the game designers failed to do correctly. That sounds like a great waste of my money and time. I'll pass. If I have to rework the whole system with house rules to make it work, what did I pay the money for in the first place? I do intend to play another system. Pathfinder works much better for me. BTW. It was LFR so making an encounter on our own technically wasn't an option.
Most monsters (except old solos), are really well designed. I generally prefer the Monster Vault stuff, as it has some really good modifications to some monsters. You're horribly exaggerating a lot. I've never had a standard combat go for more than 45 minutes. Solos and elites can take longer, depending on the group, but even that is easy to fix. Drop monster hp some, increase the damage. Put a time limit on player turns. Generally, if someone is prepared and knows what they want to do when their turn comes, it flows extremely well. Also, group initiative works extremely well for speeding things up.
The thing that I've found drags combat out the most is the players not knowing what they want to do, and not planning accordingly in between turns.
dane and jharii there is a game in liek an hour and a half
I would love to, but I go from work straight to bowling Monday nights.
For example, I was running mah Battlemind through Tomb of Horrors, and we got to the puzzle with a maze of lights that dealt damage to you unless you properly navigated through them. Alternatively, one could just barrel their way through and take a few points of damage. I had the same modifier to insight and endurance. Guess which skill I used.
LFR is all ment to end in the same general way (with a little difference) so if you want to judge the game on that i suppose your point is somewhat valid, to give you your due.
but at the end of it the only diffrence between pathfinder and all RPGs centered in mythical settings is the combat and skill systems, you could easily take a D&D storyline and make it a pathfinder one just with different monsters i mean if you are doing an official event that has pre packaged adventures the game will go in a single direction that it was ment to do.
an RPG is an RPG i can go save the princess and slay the dragon or save the dragon and kill the princess with 4e, 3.5e, .856e pathfinder or what ever RPG you can pull out of the back of your game store. because you know who makes the RP? PEOPLE
i enjoy the hell out of 4e
as for the 4 hour combat, focus fire dude makes things go alot faster
So after paying for WotC's books and a ddi subscription (thankfully I'm no longer doing either) I'm supposed to do the work the game designers failed to do correctly. That sounds like a great waste of my money and time. I'll pass. If I have to rework the whole system with house rules to make it work, what did I pay the money for in the first place? I do intend to play another system. Pathfinder works much better for me. BTW. It was LFR so making an encounter on our own technically wasn't an option.
Oh man. Did you ever play 3rd ed at higher than 10th level? NONE of the stock monsters worked. I would spend literally hour writing up monsters for my 3e games only to have them die in 3 rounds that took 3 hours to play through, because when you have multiple spell casters in 3e, game balance goes right out the window.
Oh, and regarding pathfinder, I appreciate the designers ability to not have a corporation behind them telling them what they can and can't talk about, but don't confuse reprinting the SRD with minor tweaks with a quality product. It's got good art and decent layout, but the content is selling you house rules that most people were using by the end of 3.5. Have no illusions about that.
I have played and DMed high level 3.5, and it was never near as painful as playing even a mid-heroic tier 4E adventure. Pathfinder is not a 3.5 with a bunch of house rules everyone was using. It has unique mechanics that smoothed over some of the bumps of 3.5. They actually took their customers input into consideration and had open playtests. In other words, the exact opposite of WotC, who apparetly no longer put any effort into playtesting their content. It seems they release it and a month later update the book into uselessness to close the loopholes the charop board found. They have "errated or rules updated" 4E until it's basically already 4.5 before Essentials even came out. Pathfinder also has decent adventures. That's enough right there to make someone switch. They have revolutionary concepts like a plot and NPC's you aren't supposed to immediately kill. Even fans of 4E will tell you that almost all 4E adventures are horrible with bad encounter design, pointless fights, and practically no plot. For a large company, WotC puts out products with an appalling lack of professionalism and quality.
note to self : re-read this thread.
Hi all,
A friend of mine wanted to show me the new character builder at work. Looks like WotC has screwed the pooch again with Character Builder. Everyone wanted it to run on any platform. I can't run it on Mac or Linux without downloading code from Microsoft, and in the case of Linux it's not even an option for me(s390x architecture at work is my only internet access). I'm sorry, but there is a reason why most of us on Mac's or running Linux are not using Microsoft products. It's because Microsoft does things badly. Hell, even Microsoft is dropping support for Silverlight. It was a bad product. WotC seems to be really good at making bad decisions. I think at this point that I'm done with WotC all together. I'm off to half price books to unload my 4E books. I'm going to be looking for a new RPG.
PS:I've been playing D&D since the cardstock chainmail books. I've always been pro new edition rules every edition till now. I have each an every edition rule books going all the way back. This is the first time I've ever considered getting rid of any of my books. I've thought long and hard about this and there is really no other option than to let the dying game die. I will be looking for an other game system to play. I've heard good things about Savage Worlds and Pathfinder. I think I'll start looking at those.
Fairwell.
I use Mac and I really can't understand why people are so afraid of the "code" (ie Silverlight plug-in) that they refuse to download it for an application they want to use. In my book that reeks of fanaticism and ignorance. Silverlight is a very good and focused product in my opinion, both from a consumer and a developer perspective. It's not perfect, but it is one of the more exciting products that can provide for some very rich user experiences out of the box. You can also run it on more platforms that WPF that was used for the original CB.
Secondly, Silverlight is NOT being abandoned by Microsoft. Silverlight 5 is on the way, and no plans are in place to drop support for SL. That is just untrue.
Just a note on the "death of DnD". I am so tired of the "I don't know how to roleplay so I'll blame the game system". If a different combat system changes the way you role play then you DON'T role play. The rules don't determine how you play, the rules *might* determine the outcome of some events.
I won't go into the 3.5 vs 4ed vs pathfinder argument - play what you want to play but don't try to put down what you obviously don't understand. Different people like different systems deal with it.
I do believe though that people love creating argumentative flame wars on message forums just to stir up trouble.
Oh man. Did you ever play 3rd ed at higher than 10th level? NONE of the stock monsters worked. I would spend literally hour writing up monsters for my 3e games only to have them die in 3 rounds that took 3 hours to play through, because when you have multiple spell casters in 3e, game balance goes right out the window.
This!!
Sigh
Once again, Edition wars and Company wars are not welcome, nor are they permitted.
I also wonder why an online subscription-based program you do not personally subscribe to would be the reason you quit the hobby. That's like leaving video games because you don't like Warcraft.
I have played and DMed high level 3.5, and it was never near as painful as playing even a mid-heroic tier 4E adventure.
as for the 4 hour combat, focus fire dude makes things go alot faster
I have some issues trying to get my game group to understand this. I run a Deadlands game, and everyone wants to shoot at their own target, which just means that all of tha bad guys stay around that much longer. If they would just focus on the nastiest first, get it out of the way, then switch, things would go so much faster.
I also agree with one of the other posters. People make the game. I have played/run systems that have mechanics to help encourage role player, and the min-maxers just use the mechanics as a source of bonus points. I have played/run systems with nothing outside of combat mechanics, and the roleplayers come up with their own flaws, benefits, etc to roleplay the hell our of their characters.
Roleplayers will roleplay if the game uses rock-paper-scissors as it's mechanic.. game mechanics don't make or break roleplaying, the people do that.
Roleplayers will roleplay if the game uses rock-paper-scissors as it's mechanic.. game mechanics don't make or break roleplaying, the people do that.
I have done this. I was like 10 years old at the time. My friends and I were at a nearby park and we made up a game, where we roleplayed. For the dungeon, we used a stick and some loose dirt. I would make up the dungeon as we went and come up with situations. We resolved attacks, traps, and such with rock-paper-scissors.
As for the system being used, for me doesn't really matter. To this day, I still play every editions plus pathfinder. Also other 3.X-open source systems. Occasionally some non-D&D systems as well.
I have done this. I was like 10 years old at the time. My friends and I were at a nearby park and we made up a game, where we roleplayed. For the dungeon, we used a stick and some loose dirt. I would make up the dungeon as we went and come up with situations. We resolved attacks, traps, and such with rock-paper-scissors.
heh, that brought back memories... when I was about the same age, maybe a couple years younger, my cousin would "run" a game. we used the old DC "Who's Who" comic reference.. using different character's "power guages" to develop die modifiers.. we played usuing 2d6 for most resolution, and it was really fun.. the only rules were stuff we made up when it was necessary to have something.
I had forgotten all about that.