I have enjoyed the D&D4 product roll-out, checking out the new system, metaphorically kicking the tires, playing with the new digital enhancements.
On the whole, I have found the package severely wanting. The quality and treatment of D&Di deserves special notice here, being the decisive consideration in my choice to look away from D&D for my next round of gaming.
Maybe WotC will have its act together for D&D5.
D&Di subscriptions begin tomorrow, which makes this the right time to bow out for a few years.
Bye!
Anyway,
Ken
your point here being what?
This kind of response is indication that there's a larger problem here. People aren't passionate about this game or the DDi product anymore. DDi has dragged on for so long with very little to show for it, it seems like people just don't care anymore. I know if the DDi suite had been released at launch I would have subscribed and started using it, but now, like the OP, I just don't care. I've been gaming for 4 months without it and I see no reason to even try it now.
In any case the point that the OP was really making is that Wizards just lost another customer by:
1) not having the product ready at launch: (reguardless of quotes like "we didn't think anyone would want it that much" or "you can still play DnD, this is just an enhancement" The tools, especially the Virtual table was billed as being the next big thing and an integral part of the D&D experience.)
2) Charging a $8 a month fee for an E-Zine and a compendium just reeks of a corporation not giving a damn about their customers. (The D20 3.5 OGL was in text and available online, it didn't take me much to search through it.)
WotC spends a great deal of time & effort creating all these extra features like the Compendium, the Character Builder, & all the other online tools that are going to be released. They also kept the Dragon & Dungeon magazines going in an online format, rather than just hemorrhaging money like many magazine publishers are doing these days. They could've just as easily have decided to simply let them die, leaving us without the extra goodies, & besides, we got several months worth of content for free while they got all their ducks lined up in a row.
Then they have the audacity to actually expect money back for it by requiring a subscription?
The horror, the horror!!
In other words, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I'm not really some WotC fanboy, but good luck finding another publishing company that offers as much content & overall utility as WotC is bringing to the gaming table (free or otherwise). They've done alright by me, as far as I'm concerned.
about keeping dungeon and dragon alive:
well, they want to charge for it. there's no fame or courtesy in it, it is just part of their business plan, so they keep at it.
them giving freebies was nice - but also expected. it's not like they would get many people to buy something they had never access to. (or a preview).
again, to stress my (and the OPs) standpoint:
charging for stuff is ok. but the way WOTC has handled all this up to this day, is immensely customer-unfriendly.
some people take the easy way out and bail - others phrase their concerns. (some more often than others, obviously)
don't let yourself delude into taking the concerns presented in this board as random whining: it's concern from people who were really interested, and got !"ยง$%/ off.
your point here being what?
I guess people just aren't allowed to express their opinions on the WotC forums anymore.
If you honestly can't get the point then that is just... sad. Hes disappointed and hes disappointed with how this has been handled so much so that he is now a customer that WotC has lost, at least until the next edition.
I hoped that summed it up for you, in the spirit of your original and incredibly rude tone.
I guess people just aren't allowed to express their opinions on the WotC forums anymore.
Please do not say things like that Kyros.
AS VCL, I have expressely stated that people are allowed to (and should) complain/comment about decisions made by WotC that they are unhappy with. Since the announcement that they are going to start charging for the web-content, both WolfStar76 and I have, in different threads, stated that in no uncertain terms.
We (DDI VCL/NG team) expect emotions to run fairly high at the announcement, and are determined to see that people get their say, be it positive or negative.
2) Charging a $8 a month fee for an E-Zine and a compendium just reeks of a corporation not giving a damn about their customers. (The D20 3.5 OGL was in text and available online, it didn't take me much to search through it.)
Let's be fair and realistic. The v3.5 d20 SRD (not the d20 OGL, by the way) only covered the core rules, and it didn't even include character generation, character leveling, experience tables, and a handful of monsters. Those only resources had to be created by someone, too, which took time, effort, and money.
The D&D Compendium includes all material published in every book and every article that can be searched and filtered via a database that continuously grows. That's a drastic difference when contrasted with having just the v3.5 SRD that's nothing more than a static web page.
$8 a month for two magazines without ads and a database of ALL official content, not just a stripped down version of the core rules, is a fair price. Going out to lunch one day costs more than that.
Today's going to be an emotionally charged day for lots of people. That's assuming things go smoothly today (and let's face it, few things of this sort go smoothly, and WotC's record isn't the best for new services, even if they DID).
We're going to have people in and out of the forum all day (and probably all week). Some will be confused and looking for answers. Some will be upset to find the content they've gotten accustomed to having for free is now behind a paywall. Some will be content with the system as it is.
Best thing to do today is to simply be respectful of each other - above and beyond your normal tolerance (as high or as low as that may be). If a poster brings to bear a topic that you think is way out-of-line, just ignore it and move on. If you think it's a CoC violation hit that report button and be on your merry way.
That said, everyone has the right to their opinion, even if you, I, or Santa Claus disagree with them. Feel free to debate the opinion, but don't attack the person.
In short - buckle up, it's gonna be a bumpy ride. We're all in it together, however, so we should all look out for each other.
The D&D Compendium includes all material published in every book and every article that can be searched and filtered via a database that continuously grows. That's a drastic difference when contrasted with having just the v3.5 SRD that's nothing more than a static web page.
just a nitpick: when done properly, you can store all the powers that will be in an upcoming product, already in the database used for the compendium upfront. with an indesign plugin, all the actual data for a power or item can be pulled from the database to be put into layouting the final magazine/book, as well as playtesting, previews, webpages or just quick n dirty sheets for R&D could use it.
it's not the nineties anymore. everything is (and should be) connected.
yes, the content is bigger than the srd. yes, it's new content every month. yes, they should charge for it. sadly also, i believe they are charging to much, and will be charging to much when the final product is out.
Please do not say things like that Kyros.
AS VCL, I have expressely stated that people are allowed to (and should) complain/comment about decisions made by WotC that they are unhappy with. Since the announcement that they are going to start charging for the web-content, both WolfStar76 and I have, in different threads, stated that in no uncertain terms.
We (DDI VCL/NG team) expect emotions to run fairly high at the announcement, and are determined to see that people get their say, be it positive or negative.
It seems we have a new cadre of angry forum thugs who are going around to every negative thread and getting their aggression on, but they're not getting official responses like this. Kyros is not the one you should be focusing on.
It seems we have a cadre of newly-registered angry forum thugs who are going around to every negative thread and getting their aggression on, but they're not getting official responses like this. Kyros is not the one you should be focusing on.
I will be doing what I can. And the threads that I have seen, I comment in (if one of my NGs hasn't already done so).
just a nitpick: when done properly, you can store all the powers that will be in an upcoming product, already in the database used for the compendium upfront. with an indesign plugin, all the actual data for a power or item can be pulled from the database to be put into layouting the final magazine/book, as well as playtesting, previews, webpages or just quick n dirty sheets for R&D could use it.
it's not the nineties anymore. everything is (and should be) connected.
Preaching to the choir. I once proposed a similar system for entering errata in the database first, tagging the element as errata, and running a script once a month to compile and publish content from the DB that has errata.
yes, the content is bigger than the srd. yes, it's new content every month. yes, they should charge for it. sadly also, i believe they are charging to much, and will be charging to much when the final product is out.
You still haven't qualified this.The back pages of the core rulebooks advertise the D&DI ware but it still hasn't come to fruition and it is just plain frustrating. While true you can play without the enhanced content, I would at least like to have a taste of it, and now the subscriptions kick in?
Again I feel your pain Ovarwa, and if you wish to leave to go to other gaming systems, then I don't think anyone here can begrudge you that. I also have several players in my group that are just about done with 4th edition and want to head back to 3.5 until 4.5 or 5 or whatever.
I think I would call that a beta product. I am not falling for any more marketing gimmicks by wizards like paying for a beta product.
My opinion of wizards right now is at all time low. They are bunch of greedy suits releasing crappy quality products trying to cater the the lowest common denominator to get the goose to lay a golden egg.
$5 is nothing to me. I blow way more going out on the town then the whole year subscription would cost. Since Wizards announced 4.0 you have probably lost a $1500-$2000 customer. 3.5 I bought every book and every miniature(3 cases to get a set at least) wizards released. Since 4.0 was announced I have bought the core 4.0 books and that is all I plan on getting suckered into. The 4.0 system is OK but I don't see many people getting excited about it around here. Two days after I bought the books the ink comes off the pages. Talk about crap. IF DDI was done right you may have had a chance at keeping a little of my business cause I am sure I am not going to buy anymore books or miniatures. Selling a DDI beta is garbage.
later
The D&D Compendium includes all material published in every book and every article that can be searched and filtered via a database that continuously grows. That's a drastic difference when contrasted with having just the v3.5 SRD that's nothing more than a static web page.
Of course there are things like the hyperlink SRD.
That is secondary though to the primary consideration. All this really is is a functional index. Seriously, if the books had a better index, the Compendium would be redundant. Or a series of indexes covering all material and PDFs allowing quick look up once a page is found.
Turning that into a subscription service is . . .
Let's be fair and realistic. The v3.5 d20 SRD (not the d20 OGL, by the way) only covered the core rules, and it didn't even include character generation, character leveling, experience tables, and a handful of monsters. Those only resources had to be created by someone, too, which took time, effort, and money.
Yes it did.
The money issue is WotC's problem, not mine.
If they cannot manage their products and resources properly to provide both reasonably attractive products for purchase (such as with a complete index then they wind up losing business, and they money they need to pay for all of it.
Conversely if they make products that are attractive, they will get increased business, and they money they want.
If they cannot "afford" to make their products complete, they have bigger problems than what the SRD contained compared to the Compendium.
Of course there are things like the hyperlink SRD.
That is secondary though to the primary consideration. All this really is is a functional index. Seriously, if the books had a better index, the Compendium would be redundant. Or a series of indexes covering all material and PDFs allowing quick look up once a page is found.
Turning that into a subscription service is . . .
The difference between an index for the books and the Compendium is that the books are bulky, cumbersome, and unnecessary. The Compendium not only compiles the information, it also presents it without having to flip through a bunch of pages and a stack of books and magazines.
Please do not say things like that Kyros.
AS VCL, I have expressely stated that people are allowed to (and should) complain/comment about decisions made by WotC that they are unhappy with. Since the announcement that they are going to start charging for the web-content, both WolfStar76 and I have, in different threads, stated that in no uncertain terms.
We (DDI VCL/NG team) expect emotions to run fairly high at the announcement, and are determined to see that people get their say, be it positive or negative.
You do realize the ship sailed on that late last year, right?
And the crypt was sealed forever when the last video interview was posted.
But good luck with it. After this much you time you will need a heck of a lot of luck to salvage this community.
The difference between an index for the books and the Compendium is that the books are bulky, cumbersome, and unnecessary. The Compendium not only compiles the information, it also presents it without having to flip through a bunch of pages and a stack of books and magazines.
Books are unnecessary?
Really?
So then 4E is really a virtual product with the print products a sideline?
Wow! Who would ever have thought something like that?
I mean other than me.
And obviously WotC.
Books are unnecessary?
Really?
So then 4E is really a virtual product with the print products a sideline?
Wow! Who would ever have thought something like that?
I mean other than me.
And obviously WotC.
In your haste to be snarky, you took my meaning out of context.
To some extent, yes, books are unnecessary, but only in the context of having a searchable database that allows one to query for a subset of game elements (e.g. - searching for a list of powers based on level and/or class) across all books and articles published to date with search results including errata. An index is subpar for such a task as it only gives a reference to a book and page number. You still have to rummage through your entire stack of books (if you even have all of the books), flip through the desired pages, and then compare and contrast the options. Then you need to find that file and page number of the articles from Dragon or Dungeon, too.
Contrast that entire process with typing a keyword such as a class name, selecting the category such as powers, sorting or filtering by level, and simply clicking a link to see the full description.
This is not to say that the Compendium replaces the book entirely. There is other material in the book that is worthwhile, and the book will never experience downtime or disconnections like a web site would. My point is that I think an online, updated, and complete database that includes content from the two online magazines is worth a measly $8 a month and is not compareable to the Hypertext d20 SRD. Granted, the latter includes most of the core rules, but it doesn't include anything published since then besides some material from Deities and Demigods, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Unearthed Arcana; even then, that material has some exclusions.
Anyway, I'm not here to defend D&DI or 4e as I don't even play 4e or subscribe to D&DI. I'm only giving a fair opinion of what's worth $8 a month.
You do realize the ship sailed on that late last year, right?
And the crypt was sealed forever when the last video interview was posted.
But good luck with it. After this much you time you will need a heck of a lot of luck to salvage this community.
I may just be tired, but I really don't see the connection between my reply to Kyros (saying that WotC wants to hear all points of view, positive and negative) and your response to my post.
In your haste to be snarky, you took my meaning out of context.
That would actually be you, in your haste to be snarky, saying something you do not mean or do not want to have to defend against the full implications.
To some extent, yes, books are unnecessary, but only in the context of having a searchable database that allows one to query for a subset of game elements (e.g. - searching for a list of powers based on level and/or class) across all books and articles published to date with search results including errata.
Too bad absolutely none of that context was included in your original comment.
Contrast that entire process with typing a keyword such as a class name, selecting the category such as powers, sorting or filtering by level, and simply clicking a link to see the full description.
I am contrasting that.
With the Compendium you absolutely do not need the books.
What part of that are you not trying to make clear?
This is not to say that the Compendium replaces the book entirely. There is other material in the book that is worthwhile, and the book will never experience downtime or disconnections like a web site would.
So if the Compendium does not contain everything the books contain, why can the books not contain a complete index?
Why can a complete index that can function independent of the web not be made available?
Are you now trying to convince me the Compendium is not as good as you tried to suggest it was before?
My point is that I think an online, updated, and complete database that includes content from the two online magazines is worth a measly $8 a month and is not compareable to the Hypertext d20 SRD.
Right, the Hypertext D20 SRD is free, and there are free e-zines and game sites that can provide more content than the two online magazines. That . . . pretty much makes that $8 way overpriced.
Granted, the latter includes most of the core rules, but it doesn't include anything published since then besides some material from Deities and Demigods, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Unearthed Arcana; even then, that material has some exclusions.
Yep.
That is why I tend to just use the WotC indexes. They do not contain spells other than the PHB and SpC, but nothing is perfect.
Anyway, I'm not here to defend D&DI or 4e as I don't even play 4e or subscribe to D&DI. I'm only giving a fair opinion of what's worth $8 a month.
And I am just giving a fair opinion of what is not worth $8 a month.
I may just be tired, but I really don't see the connection between my reply to Kyros (saying that WotC wants to hear all points of view, positive and negative) and your response to my post.
The time for WotC, or any of its representatives, to make a big deal about caring that everyone be allowed to express their points of view, positive and negative, was this past year when the various 4E supporters were going out of their way to flame people off the forums and WotC representatives of all levels were not just shrugging off complaints about them, but sanctioning and joining in.
Any credibility WotC may have had to be considered sincere about wanting to change direction was thrown away with the contents of the Red Dragon Interview video, and will remain lost until there are very public firings and apologies.
That leaves you with the uneviable task of asking people to volunteer to be the next batch of "trolls" for WotC to empty its bowels upon.
Whether someone is willing to pay for that material is another matter.
Speaking for myself, I doubt I will be getting a DDI subscription any time soon.
I am old school. I like silly things like books, magazines and paper. While a search-able database if great for specific reference work, simply sitting on your porch and reading the books or the monthly magazines (now gone) is a pleasure. I prefer hard copy over pdf. Guess I am old fashioned.
The bonus tools seem simplistic at best and appear to be something many of the very bright posters on this board could have knocked off in an evening. Think I will pass.
Now, an advanced character generation would be something I might be interested in, especially if you can add custom feats and races. But that is not out yet, is it. Odd, since I would expect that to be the very first thing everyone would want. Neither is the table top or the visualizer.
So, to me, it doesn't matter that WoTC wants to charge for their work. It only matters if I, as a customer, want to pay the price they want for the services they currently offer. If the character generation was on-line and working to my satisfaction, I might have said yes to DDi. As it stands, I will have to say no.
I don't think I am alone in that.
If the character generation was on-line and working to my satisfaction, I might have said yes to DDi. As it stands, I will have to say no.
I don't think I am alone in that.
#2
Im in 4.0 for one reason. Living Forgotten Realms. and im only in LFR because of Living Greyhawk (the red-headed step child of D&D)
being able to bring a caracter to another table, and interact with other players I didnt know before hand is incredible! (and it not being a creepy fantasy one up contest) , then the LG inter-active's at cons really brought exitement into the game.. (details reserved for other topic)
also it meant knowing the rules and making shure your caracter followed them fairly. (cause table variation on critical aspects of the caracter kills fun faster then 200d6)
on that note,
Ive been exited about the D&Di tools since day one .. a database that promises enteries of core books, suplements and magazine enteries! and a caracter database where its checked against the rules for you (less how did you get that, what page is the ability on arguements)...
-I hope LFR caracters can be looked up so I can checkup on friends I met at cons.
buuuuut it been, what? almost 6 mo.? and thats still not online?
the bonus tools are only usefull for people who dont want to get really farmilair with the rules and havent made thier own tools. the redeeming quality?
the magazines.
although the magazines offers great content that is (somwhat) usefull for open and living games... the pull is the "playtest" classes. to be part of the "beta for the next 30-40$ supplement"
much like the first release core books were the beta for the new "nicely bound and erata updated" core books.-wich I will only buy if the *BAD WORD* ink doesnt smear. (WOTC, you printed cards for a living, GET A NEW PRINTER!)
-and that doesnt even get into the weak wording of abilitys/rules that cause endless arguments (im looking at you longsword wielding swordmage and you ever-changing armor class)
summary: I'll pay for it when the tools/new class playtest is out, but If I keep feeling like Im paying for a beta (and have the new books full of smears to prove it) im jumping ship for the next rpg with players in my area that comes along.
-note: with all the page smearing I would love ebook versions of the books.. but know that not gonna happen with the threat of piracy.
-note: with all the page smearing I would love ebook versions of the books.. but know that not gonna happen with the threat of piracy.
actually, you can buy the core rulebooks and probably (didn't check back as they were to expensive as a backup to the normal books) the newer releases as well.
my problem with finding those pdfs again, however, is different: i try google, and all i find is pirated versions...
actually, you can buy the core rulebooks and probably (didn't check back as they were to expensive as a backup to the normal books) the newer releases as well.
my problem with finding those pdfs again, however, is different: i try google, and all i find is pirated versions...
http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=4500
@Samwise: Mudbunny is not WotC. He is a volunteer.
I am aware of who Mudbunny is.
I am also aware of what WotC is.
And I am aware of both their past and present actions.
I am aware of who Mudbunny is.
I am also aware of what WotC is.
And I am aware of both their past and present actions.
Oh, my bad! Sorry, I just guess my view of your position was a bit skewed. (hinthint)
Let's review...
WotC spends a great deal of time & effort creating all these extra features like the Compendium, the Character Builder, & all the other online tools that are going to be released. They also kept the Dragon & Dungeon magazines going in an online format, rather than just hemorrhaging money like many magazine publishers are doing these days. They could've just as easily have decided to simply let them die, leaving us without the extra goodies, & besides, we got several months worth of content for free while they got all their ducks lined up in a row.
Then they have the audacity to actually expect money back for it by requiring a subscription?
The horror, the horror!!
In other words, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I'm not really some WotC fanboy, but good luck finding another publishing company that offers as much content & overall utility as WotC is bringing to the gaming table (free or otherwise). They've done alright by me, as far as I'm concerned.
Oh crap I dunno Kobold Quarterly maybe??? The REAL successor to the REAL Dragon Magazine, and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't go monthly before long. Oh also and did I mention you can get it in digital and PRINT form. The alternative for Dungeon would be the Pathfinder Adventure Paths of course witch cost more yes but are of waaaay better quality than dungeon ever was under Wizards direction. The other alternative would have been for them to have left it with Paizo who was doing a great job and had a quality print publication and they could have taken it online as well. I think though thet Wizards knew that if they left the print option no one would have subscribed to the digital mag. Which says something about what the fans at large really want I think. Being rude to an already displeased customer doesn't help the reputation of the product that you are trying to defend at all man.
Charles
Please do not say things like that Kyros.
AS VCL, I have expressely stated that people are allowed to (and should) complain/comment about decisions made by WotC that they are unhappy with. Since the announcement that they are going to start charging for the web-content, both WolfStar76 and I have, in different threads, stated that in no uncertain terms.
We (DDI VCL/NG team) expect emotions to run fairly high at the announcement, and are determined to see that people get their say, be it positive or negative.
Keep talkin' like that, I am startin' ta like you Mr. Mudbunny even if you do have a funny name and a funny avatar... it beats me I guess I have an unpronounceable name and no avatar. ;)
Charles
This kind of response is indication that there's a larger problem here. People aren't passionate about this game or the DDi product anymore. DDi has dragged on for so long with very little to show for it, it seems like people just don't care anymore. I know if the DDi suite had been released at launch I would have subscribed and started using it, but now, like the OP, I just don't care. I've been gaming for 4 months without it and I see no reason to even try it now.
In any case the point that the OP was really making is that Wizards just lost another customer by:
1) not having the product ready at launch: (reguardless of quotes like "we didn't think anyone would want it that much" or "you can still play DnD, this is just an enhancement" The tools, especially the Virtual table was billed as being the next big thing and an integral part of the D&D experience.)
2) Charging a $8 a month fee for an E-Zine and a compendium just reeks of a corporation not giving a damn about their customers. (The D20 3.5 OGL was in text and available online, it didn't take me much to search through it.)
i think its that the people like myself that like it think that we are getting a good price for a couple of magazines and get a few extra things tossed in as well.
The difference between an index for the books and the Compendium is that the books are bulky, cumbersome, and unnecessary. The Compendium not only compiles the information, it also presents it without having to flip through a bunch of pages and a stack of books and magazines.
makes goofing off with my game ideas easier at work then obvious books also :P
As a Gamer, I feel your 'pain'.
You have my respect.
Hi,
I have enjoyed the D&D4 product roll-out, checking out the new system, metaphorically kicking the tires, playing with the new digital enhancements.
On the whole, I have found the package severely wanting. The quality and treatment of D&Di deserves special notice here, being the decisive consideration in my choice to look away from D&D for my next round of gaming.
Maybe WotC will have its act together for D&D5.
D&Di subscriptions begin tomorrow, which makes this the right time to bow out for a few years.
Bye!
Anyway,
Ken
Oh crap I dunno Kobold Quarterly maybe??? The REAL successor to the REAL Dragon Magazine, and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't go monthly before long. Oh also and did I mention you can get it in digital and PRINT form.
Well after all it has been delivered on time
The alternative for Dungeon would be the Pathfinder Adventure Paths
As Much as I like Paizo, I have to disagree here. Pathfinder is not nor has it ever been intended to be a replacement for Dungeon. Dungeon offered more than 1 play option each month..
Personally I went with the Gamemastery Modual Subscription..And will start geting the Pathfinder Society scenarios
I hate to say, but im halfway in Ovarwa's boat
Im in 4.0 for one reason. Living Forgotten Realms. and im only in LFR because of Living Greyhawk (the red-headed step child of D&D)
being able to bring a caracter to another table, and interact with other players I didnt know before hand is incredible! (and it not being a creepy fantasy one up contest) , then the LG inter-active's at cons really brought exitement into the game.. (details reserved for other topic)
also it meant knowing the rules and making shure your caracter followed them fairly. (cause table variation on critical aspects of the caracter kills fun faster then 200d6)
on that note,
Ive been exited about the D&Di tools since day one .. a database that promises enteries of core books, suplements and magazine enteries! and a caracter database where its checked against the rules for you (less how did you get that, what page is the ability on arguements)...
-I hope LFR caracters can be looked up so I can checkup on friends I met at cons.
buuuuut it been, what? almost 6 mo.? and thats still not online?
the bonus tools are only usefull for people who dont want to get really farmilair with the rules and havent made thier own tools. the redeeming quality?
the magazines.
although the magazines offers great content that is (somwhat) usefull for open and living games... the pull is the "playtest" classes. to be part of the "beta for the next 30-40$ supplement"
much like the first release core books were the beta for the new "nicely bound and erata updated" core books.-wich I will only buy if the *BAD WORD* ink doesnt smear. (WOTC, you printed cards for a living, GET A NEW PRINTER!)
-and that doesnt even get into the weak wording of abilitys/rules that cause endless arguments (im looking at you longsword wielding swordmage and you ever-changing armor class)
summary: I'll pay for it when the tools/new class playtest is out, but If I keep feeling like Im paying for a beta (and have the new books full of smears to prove it) im jumping ship for the next rpg with players in my area that comes along.
-note: with all the page smearing I would love ebook versions of the books.. but know that not gonna happen with the threat of piracy.
The ink thing is odd, my books nor the other player in my groups books have smeared & the bindings fine, but there have been enough people with issues to keep me from discounting it.
Oh, my bad! Sorry, I just guess my view of your position was a bit skewed. (hinthint)
Then you should make a better effort to correct your view. (hinthint)
Then you should make a better effort to correct your view. (hinthint)
Oh, the IRONY! It's like it's stabbing...into...my ribs! Heeheehee!You do realize I was pointing out that your view of WotC's position was a bit skewed, right? Hence the Bold.
So, basically, according to you, maybe you should also "make a better effort to correct your view." (heehee!)
You do realize I was pointing out that your view of WotC's position was a bit skewed, right? Hence the Bold.
Apparently you do not realize that the reply was a deadpan understatement, demonstrating my disdain for your suggestion.
I guess you were too busy being amused with what you thought was clever repartee that you missed it.
So, basically, according to you, maybe you should also "make a better effort to correct your view." (heehee!)
No. Basically, according to me, my view is completely on target, giving full consideration to both WotC's past failures and recent disasters. It is your view that is skewed, to the point that you feel the need to try and tell me how to think.
(My version of "great entertainment" is The Daily Show, not trying to sound witty to other people. Maybe crack a joke or two, but certainly not much wit. )Just making suggestions. You are most certainly encouraged to think how you want. Just have a nice day. :D
Let's review...
WotC spends a great deal of time & effort creating all these extra features like the Compendium, the Character Builder, & all the other online tools that are going to be released. They also kept the Dragon & Dungeon magazines going in an online format, rather than just hemorrhaging money like many magazine publishers are doing these days. They could've just as easily have decided to simply let them die, leaving us without the extra goodies, & besides, we got several months worth of content for free while they got all their ducks lined up in a row.
Then they have the audacity to actually expect money back for it by requiring a subscription?
The horror, the horror!!
Lets review...
Wizards had an electronic aid already in place and the next generation Character Generator was already almost done which had a data set package scheme already in place. This application (Which is still coming out, but without any of the licensed stuff) can easily handle the simpler framework of this new edition.
They yanked it. ("Let the license lapse") A replacement is still not available or being developed. There is a "character builder" on the ransomed DDi instead, slaved to the web or a simplistic client.
Sorry, but I am not paying the monthly ransom for downgraded mags, inferior tools and useless fluff.
But the stance of the OP of completely disregarding D&D completely, either this new edition or the alternative offered by Paizo, saddens me. The system itself, despite the flaws like Magical Items loosing worth or effectiveness, is much better than the previous edition. I hope that some glaring inconsistencies are fixed in 4.5, but otherwise it is very user friendly.
UGHHHHH. ::shudder:: Why do people keep assuming there will be a 4.5?? They have DDI to make money with, they're releasing Errata fairly rapidly, and it would immediately make them look like scum if they actually published it. I truly believe we will never see a 4.5 from Wizards.
They even stated at GenCon07 that 4E wouldn't have a 4.5 - they'd learned their lesson with the debacle caused by 3.0 and 3.5. They cited the ability to issue updates online, and the flexibility of the system to avoid that as reasons why.
The bigger problem, as I see it, is that people are never going to forgive 3.5 - even if it DID make improvements to the game.
So, as WotC compiles and releases Errata (like the changes/fixes to Stealth - and word is they're taking another look at how Traps work) the customer base is going, at some point to start calling 4E 4.25 or 4.5 as rules get ammended.
It's rather ironic that they'll use the very naming convention they revolted against in the first place.
It's sort of like people who think they're being bitingly sarcastic by joking that 5E will be out in 2009 or 2010. It damages the speaker more than the product.
Who is to say when 5th edition would come out? This new edition, in my and a lot of others mind, was at least two years to early.
It is why we have Pathfinder, and the reluctance for some 3pp to jump to the new, restrictive 4th edition GSL from the previous OGL.
UGHHHHH. ::shudder:: Why do people keep assuming there will be a 4.5?? They have DDI to make money with, they're releasing Errata fairly rapidly, and it would immediately make them look like scum if they actually published it. I truly believe we will never see a 4.5 from Wizards.
Dont care about a 4.5 but if we dont see a 5.0 noone will make another dime off me for dnd, except for turbine for ddo and that wont last forever.
They even stated at GenCon07 that 4E wouldn't have a 4.5 - they'd learned their lesson with the debacle caused by 3.0 and 3.5. They cited the ability to issue updates online, and the flexibility of the system to avoid that as reasons why.
The bigger problem, as I see it, is that people are never going to forgive 3.5 - even if it DID make improvements to the game.
So, as WotC compiles and releases Errata (like the changes/fixes to Stealth - and word is they're taking another look at how Traps work) the customer base is going, at some point to start calling 4E 4.25 or 4.5 as rules get ammended.
It's rather ironic that they'll use the very naming convention they revolted against in the first place.
It's sort of like people who think they're being bitingly sarcastic by joking that 5E will be out in 2009 or 2010. It damages the speaker more than the product.
I forgave 3.5 the day I bought my books I will never forgive 4E unless they come out with a system I can live with. I also hold it against them for pulling the license from Kenzer for Hackmaster which was a billion times the system 4E is.
Perhaps a named 4.5 won't be released, but later printings of the books hopefully will include "erata" and be rid of the Magical Item nerf buy/sell rot.
Who is to say when 5th edition would come out? This new edition, in my and a lot of others mind, was at least two years to early.
It is why we have Pathfinder, and the reluctance for some 3pp to jump to the new, restrictive 4th edition GSL from the previous OGL.
cant stand pathfinder and paizo wont ever get another dime from me any more then wizards will until they come out with a 5.0 or 6.0 maybe
Your disinterest and dislike of 4E is duly noted.
They could've just as easily have decided to simply let them die, leaving us without the extra goodies, & besides, we got several months worth of content for free while they got all their ducks lined up in a row.
I'm not really some WotC fanboy, but good luck finding another publishing company that offers as much content & overall utility as WotC is bringing to the gaming table.
First of all dude, Dungeon and Dragon were far from dying, Paizo was doing a fantastic job with the magazines. WotC could have left well enough alone.
WotC is charging less for what I feel is an inferior product. The flavor of Dungeon and Dragon are gone, that feeling of anticipation when those magazines came in is gone. for a lot of people.
The bottom line is that it was widely advertised that Insider would be ready for 4E release. I went out of my way to get 4E ASAP. I was ****** when I found out it wasn't, I would have just played 3.5 until it was ready.
As far as I can tell, charging for a beta is unprecedented. You can squawk all day about how you are paying for the eZines, but really sucka, you are a paid beta tester.
Get some real software put together than I will think about ponying up the cash.
As far as I can tell, charging for a beta is unprecedented. You can squawk all day about how you are paying for the eZines, but really sucka, you are a paid beta tester.
Many MMOs have granted beta access to people who pre-order their games.
Hardly unprecendented.
Many MMOs have granted beta access to people who pre-order their games.
Hardly unprecendented.
Apples and oranges dude. I've bought the books already. No one that preorders an MMO pays subscription during beta.
Apples and oranges dude. I've bought the books already. No one that preorders an MMO pays subscription during beta.
I wasn't comparing them, I was citing a precedence of charging for access to a Beta-test.
I could also equally point out that one doesn't apparently need a subscription to beta-test the Character Builder when the Closed Beta starts - as people who signed up at DDXP earlier this year will be getting their shot.
One of those is a friend of mine who is not a subscriber.
Following the Closed Beta will be an Open Beta where anyone will be able to test the software. Again - no charge.
So it's worth repeating again, as others have done, that they are NOT charging for the Beta.
They're giving the Beta to people who have paid for DDI. It may only be a subtle difference to you, but its an important distinction all the same.
It is why we have Pathfinder, and the reluctance for some 3pp to jump to the new, restrictive 4th edition GSL from the previous OGL.
No
We have Pathfinder because Paizo listened to thier Customers when We said we didn't want to switch to 4E. We wanted to continue to spend our money on 3?E Stuff. They worked with Us to provide a compatable system..Pathfinder was on the Market before 4E hit the shelves.
3PP are waiting for thier chance, how can you do anything when You don't have the Imformation to work with. Plus it wasn't until this month that they could offer anything even if they did agree to 4E GSL
In Regards to Future Editions
Some of Us remember being told by WOTC that there was not gonna be any Game Edition released anytime soon just about a year or so ago....And then Suddenly all the Liscenes were allowed to "expire" and WOTC Made alot of promises about the E-zines and how things would be available each month and that failed, I take WOTC about as serious as Bozo the Clown or a Presidential Canidate...run your mouth all day long...when You deliver I will believe..
Some of Us remember being told by WOTC that there was not gonna be any Game Edition released anytime soon just about a year or so ago....And then Suddenly all the Liscenes were allowed to "expire" and WOTC Made alot of promises about the E-zines and how things would be available each month and that failed, I take WOTC about as serious as Bozo the Clown or a Presidential Canidate...run your mouth all day long...when You deliver I will believe..
Personally, I'd cite the incredible amount of work the WotC employees and volunteers are doing just to connect and see what the people want by posting on these Boards. Randy Buehler (a high-profile employee of WotC) all the way down to Solice (our Resident Human Resources connection), and many other people in-between have posted on these Boards to take what we have to say into account. I'd say they're giving it some effort, myself.
Would that ultimately alleviate these completely merit full complaints? Or is this just a genuine distaste for 4E?
But while we are on the topic of paying for betas, you can pay to get the beta for pathfinder, if you want. Or you can get it for free.
With 4e, you can pay for the subscription, and get in the beta for char builder, or you can wait for the open beta and get in for free.
Maybe apples and oranges, but i think a comparison can be made.
No
We have Pathfinder because Paizo listened to thier Customers when We said we didn't want to switch to 4E. We wanted to continue to spend our money on 3?E Stuff. They worked with Us to provide a compatable system..Pathfinder was on the Market before 4E hit the shelves.
That is interesting. When I went to Gen Con I only saw the Beta.
Or are you talking about the adventure paths that took the place of the now dead mags that have ghosts in the DDi.
They didn't make the jump to a 3.75 release until the GSL made it an ultimatum. You do this or whither away, they choose a third option.
In Regards to Future Editions
Some of Us remember being told by WOTC that there was not gonna be any Game Edition released anytime soon just about a year or so ago....And then Suddenly all the Liscenes were allowed to "expire" and WOTC Made alot of promises about the E-zines and how things would be available each month and that failed, I take WOTC about as serious as Bozo the Clown or a Presidential Canidate...run your mouth all day long...when You deliver I will believe..
It was a slap in the face, that is sure, but looking at this new edition makes the glaring mistakes in the previous one jump out. Some of the over balance rules aside, it is a very well conceived vision and doesn't have to much to fix for 4.5 as it could have. It would have been better if it hadn't have been rushed, and the Magical Item nerf could have been straightened out.
I am more upset with the digital side than the published books. I should have expected the worst, since Wizards track record is so bad. It doesn't seem to be getting much better at this point.
Some of us really, really hate Magical Items
fixed
So, what, your opinion is the only valid one? Ok, Mr. Christmas Tree. Whatever.
That is still fresh in people's mind...(including me).
UGHHHHH. ::shudder:: Why do people keep assuming there will be a 4.5?? They have DDI to make money with, they're releasing Errata fairly rapidly, and it would immediately make them look like scum if they actually published it. I truly believe we will never see a 4.5 from Wizards.
In any case the point that the OP was really making is that Wizards just lost another customer by:
1) not having the product ready at launch: (reguardless of quotes like "we didn't think anyone would want it that much" or "you can still play DnD, this is just an enhancement" The tools, especially the Virtual table was billed as being the next big thing and an integral part of the D&D experience.)
2) Charging a $8 a month fee for an E-Zine and a compendium just reeks of a corporation not giving a damn about their customers. (The D20 3.5 OGL was in text and available online, it didn't take me much to search through it.)
Hey Ranger -
The bolded part interests me. Can you direct me to where these quotes are at?
Thanks!
This kind of response is indication that there's a larger problem here. People aren't passionate about this game or the DDi product anymore. DDi has dragged on for so long with very little to show for it, it seems like people just don't care anymore. I know if the DDi suite had been released at launch I would have subscribed and started using it, but now, like the OP, I just don't care. I've been gaming for 4 months without it and I see no reason to even try it now.
In any case the point that the OP was really making is that Wizards just lost another customer by:
1) not having the product ready at launch: (reguardless of quotes like "we didn't think anyone would want it that much" or "you can still play DnD, this is just an enhancement" The tools, especially the Virtual table was billed as being the next big thing and an integral part of the D&D experience.)
2) Charging a $8 a month fee for an E-Zine and a compendium just reeks of a corporation not giving a damn about their customers. (The D20 3.5 OGL was in text and available online, it didn't take me much to search through it.)
And this is translating to abysmal sales at Game Shops. My local shop that has been in Business since 1976 sells more of the legacy 3.5 D&D and Palladium Fantasy (and it's a large Metro shop) than they do 4th edition.(The fact is hardly anyone is buying 4th edition) It was extremely apparent at Gen-Con that the IP is in serious trouble from all of the Non-answers about DDI and 4th edition. At this point I have to seriously wonder if there will be a 5th edition, and if there is I would bet my entire vast collection of D&D books that it will not be published by WOTC or Hasbro.
It's time to face the facts
DDI is a failure
We will never see the Game Table
Everything Ken Troop touches dies.
And this is translating to abysmal sales at Game Shops. My local shop that has been in Business since 1976 sells more of the legacy 3.5 D&D and Palladium Fantasy (and it's a large Metro shop) than they do 4th edition.(The fact is hardly anyone is buying 4th edition) It was extremely apparent at Gen-Con that the IP is in serious trouble from all of the Non-answers about DDI and 4th edition. At this point I have to seriously wonder if there will be a 5th edition, and if there is I would bet my entire vast collection of D&D books that it will not be published by WOTC or Hasbro.
You need to be careful about small observations like this.
My local shop can't keep 4E stuff on the shelf. I talked to the owner, and he is selling about 10X as much 4E stuff (and keep in mind that there are a lot fewer 4E products out) as 3.5 stuff.
Theer are a lot of factiors that could influence this:
- the type of games preferred by the gamers in the area;
- the attitude of the owner/employees;
- cost of the books at the FLGS as compared to Amazon/internet vendor.
What it boils down to is that you can't get an accurate gauge of how well (or poorly) a product is doing by looking at one specific shop. DO that, and you inevitable get counter arguments of shops where it is doing well. To get accurate views, you need to look at national numbers, collected in an unbiased manner.
You can get some indications (print runs of the core books selling out) that 4E is doing well. You can get other indications that it is doing really well (The H2 module sold out of it's first couple of print runs). But that is in isolation. You need to look at the overall picture over a significant period of time to get any real data. Short term, and localized data points don't give accurate numbers.
You need to be careful about small observations like this.
My local shop can't keep 4E stuff on the shelf. I talked to the owner, and he is selling about 10X as much 4E stuff (and keep in mind that there are a lot fewer 4E products out) as 3.5 stuff.
Theer are a lot of factiors that could influence this:
- the type of games preferred by the gamers in the area;
- the attitude of the owner/employees;
- cost of the books at the FLGS as compared to Amazon/internet vendor.
What it boils down to is that you can't get an accurate gauge of how well (or poorly) a product is doing by looking at one specific shop. DO that, and you inevitable get counter arguments of shops where it is doing well. To get accurate views, you need to look at national numbers, collected in an unbiased manner.
You can get some indications (print runs of the core books selling out) that 4E is doing well. You can get other indications that it is doing really well (The H2 module sold out of it's first couple of print runs). But that is in isolation. You need to look at the overall picture over a significant period of time to get any real data. Short term, and localized data points don't give accurate numbers.
Perhaps...I have just been going by what my local shop owner tells me...that and the reps I know at Diamond distributors, I figure since they are the major Wholesaler of all WotC products they would know.. I am glad you mentioned Amazon...they are currently selling the 4th ed Collectors edition of the PHB at about half off retail...I have been told they are doing this because they are strapped with way too much of the core product that just isn't moving. But yes you are correct before making observations I should have some sort of empirical data.
Perhaps...I have just been going by what my local shop owner tells me...that and the reps I know at Diamond distributors, I figure since they are the major Wholesaler of all WotC products they would know.. I am glad you mentioned Amazon...they are currently selling the 4th ed Collectors edition of the PHB at about half off retail...I have been told they are doing this because they are strapped with way too much of the core product that just isn't moving. But yes you are correct before making observations I should have some sort of empirical data.
Amazon was selling them at about half price before the product was even available, and when it WAS first available it was pretty high up in the top 100 items list for a few days.
In fact, in another thread it's been noted that the price of the Core Set has gone UP by $10 - hardly evidence of lower prices due to product not moving.
In my area 4E sales are about the same as 3.x sales were - though the 3.x books we didn't move before 4E was released aren't moving at all now. Even at 50% off.
Telling as well that my FLGS' has had trouble getting the new books (Well, the FRPG and AV) from Diamond when they're fresh and new because they'd underestimated demand in our area.
Different areas, different results. Go figure.
Many MMOs have granted beta access to people who pre-order their games.
Hardly unprecendented.
You dont pay for pre-orders until they shipp at least not for any mmo I have ever played.
Some of us really, really like the Magic Item Nerf.
Wasnt needed if the gm controled the amount of items in the game, and could not allow people just free down time to create items, we never had enough time to really do so ourselves other then some few potions and scrolls
You dont pay for pre-orders until they shipp at least not for any mmo I have ever played.
Sometimes its not tied to a pre-order.
There was a deal last year where if you bought a certain Xbox 360 game you got in on the Halo 3 Beta.
The point remains - you claimed there was no precedent for this. That it was something *nobody* had ever done before.
Oddly, I keep finding multiple examples where it's been done.
Sometimes its not tied to a pre-order.
There was a deal last year where if you bought a certain Xbox 360 game you got in on the Halo 3 Beta.
The point remains - you claimed there was no precedent for this. That it was something *nobody* had ever done before.
Oddly, I keep finding multiple examples where it's been done.
Claiming that you are paying for access to the beta is a bit of misdirection by those who are unhappy that paying subscribers get access ahead of the open beta.
Access to the beta is a bonus being given to reward those that are paying for a subscription to DDI. The exact same way that, when City of Villains went into closed beta, people who were subscribers got access to the beta before the general public.
Claiming that you are paying for access to the beta is a bit of misdirection by those who are unhappy that paying subscribers get access ahead of the open beta.
Access to the beta is a bonus being given to reward those that are paying for a subscription to DDI. The exact same way that, when City of Villains went into closed beta, people who were subscribers got access to the beta before the general public.
Agreed - and as someone who's on the Beta list from DDXP, that point isn't lost on me in the slightest. ;)
My point is that even if they were "charging for the beta", it's been done before.
Sometimes its not tied to a pre-order.
There was a deal last year where if you bought a certain Xbox 360 game you got in on the Halo 3 Beta.
The point remains - you claimed there was no precedent for this. That it was something *nobody* had ever done before.
Oddly, I keep finding multiple examples where it's been done.
Still not the samething and its not a sub so your not even getting close.
Still not the samething and its not a sub so your not even getting close.
Also when I was subscribed to City of Heroes/City of Villains:
CoH/CoV was published in North AMerica by NCSoft, so you were paying NCSoft your monthly (quarterly/annual) subscription fee. When NCSoft would put out other games, subscribers to current NCSoft games were given the chance to beta test those before they went to non-NCSoft customers for open beta.
Hey Ranger -
The bolded part interests me. Can you direct me to where these quotes are at?
Thanks!
sure, check this thread out: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1043751
This is back when the books were first released and people were just beginning to head the the forums to find out why the DDi tools that were advertised in the books and in the ads were not actually working. Thats when most people found out that there was actually a small announcment blurb burried in the forums if you could find it saying that the DDi tools were delayed.
this is from that thread:
b) Because D&D Insider has always been an extra subscription, it never occurred to me that some players might feel misled about not having tools available at launch. Instead I've always thought it was great that we were willing to give away Dragon/Dungeon content, and soon hopefully some of our Compendium content, away for free. I'm not saying I'm right and those who are so angry are wrong. I thought 4th edition D&D was a great enough product on its own http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008...ns-dragon.html , and that most people were buying the books for the books, and only then may be willing to check out this D&D Insider, not the other way around.
i agree that the OP is overreacting. however, charging is not the problem with WOTC, it's how, when and what they charge for. their bonus tools are tame, most of their magazine content (aka dungeon) only usable if you DM and only useful if you never DM anything else than dungeon content or DM three times a week.
about keeping dungeon and dragon alive:
well, they want to charge for it. there's no fame or courtesy in it, it is just part of their business plan, so they keep at it.
them giving freebies was nice - but also expected. it's not like they would get many people to buy something they had never access to. (or a preview).
again, to stress my (and the OPs) standpoint:
charging for stuff is ok. but the way WOTC has handled all this up to this day, is immensely customer-unfriendly.
some people take the easy way out and bail - others phrase their concerns. (some more often than others, obviously)
don't let yourself delude into taking the concerns presented in this board as random whining: it's concern from people who were really interested, and got !"ยง$%/ off.
(emphasis mine) This is why I don't subscribe to DDi. I liked the printed magazines for the ability to look through them and see if they were worth my money before shelling out. I would *love* a per-article payment system, resembling the old e-column format of the printed-magazine era, in which people can browse article titles, authors, and summaries, then pay online for the ones they want and download them as PDFs.
I would happily pay for the Cormyr nobility extended family tree in its pre-Spellplague entirety if it were made available for purchase, and many of the other FR lore articles are worth paying for too.
I won't pay money for content that I don't have an idea of beforehand (I learned that the hard way, pre-ordering the 4E core books), and (as just noted) I have no use for 4E game mechanics. All three of the groups that I play in (one of which I DM occasionally) have stuck with 3.x, and none of us are willing to shell out for new core books for a system that doesn't meet our needs. Most of us (not including myself) also play MMORPGs, and we like our PnP games to have a different feel from that.
The more Forgotten Realms pre-Spellplague lore Wizards makes available for purchase on a per-article basis, the more business Wizards will get from me and my friends. I would very much like to see old FR NDAs removed and the lore made available with as few mechanics as possible. I'm fine with updating existing mechanics to 4e, but only if it dates back to 1e or 2e.
Anyway, I hope this gives Wizards of the Coast an idea of how they can get my business back, and I look forward to seeing the results.
And this is translating to abysmal sales at Game Shops. My local shop that has been in Business since 1976 sells more of the legacy 3.5 D&D and Palladium Fantasy (and it's a large Metro shop) than they do 4th edition.(The fact is hardly anyone is buying 4th edition) It was extremely apparent at Gen-Con that the IP is in serious trouble from all of the Non-answers about DDI and 4th edition. At this point I have to seriously wonder if there will be a 5th edition, and if there is I would bet my entire vast collection of D&D books that it will not be published by WOTC or Hasbro.
It's time to face the facts
DDI is a failure
We will never see the Game Table
Everything Ken Troop touches dies.
Remember how it was planned the whole time? And was only really done to make money? And how they promised they would never do that again? Only Microsoft could get away with repeating that load of bull.
I like the 4e system. I hate the marketting model. To put it blankly, I have always play without buying magazine. I only bought extension that I needed for my campaign (I find them failing half the time). So now WotC want to make us pay monthly fee? The question is not the wether it worth it or not, it is simply not the way I budget my rolepalying expense. I have always think them as one time buy and don't want to think them otherwise.
I should add that I don't like to feel compell to buy new product because basic rules are including into them when they could have been included in the basic book. For ex : the illusionnist spells given in one of the free Dragon or mount in the AV, all of them belong to the Core book.
That is why I am realy against the business model of the DDi. I'd like the Dragon & Dungeon magazine to be sold on an issue basis even as e-zine, and may be offering us a yearly subscription for those interested. As for all the other tools, I might be ready to pay for them, but not subscribe to them.
We play once a month (work, children...and so on) so a monthly fee is like asking me and my players to pay for each session we have. That is something hard to accept.
I will add that the copyright problem is paramount, simply because I know that most of my players won't subscribe to dragon. So do I have the right to hand them out the new rules I downloaded for them to use? If we are already down to that. I guess that DDi is simply not the way I experienced TRPG.
I hope that WotC will revise its business model soon.
Peace,
Fallstorm
I really don't think a client/web slaved spread sheet app is going to replace the product Wizards yanked off the market. Paying a monthly fee for something as if we are using it for hours a day when it is really being used about once a week at most is foolish, and I would hope that both the consumer and Wizards would realize this.
It is unfortunate that the Character "Builder" and the visual window dressing is going to be a separate price than the mags, or at least that is the plan as of right now.
I really don't think a client/web slaved spread sheet app is going to replace the product Wizards yanked off the market. Paying a monthly fee for something as if we are using it for hours a day when it is really being used about once a week at most is foolish, and I would hope that both the consumer and Wizards would realize this.
Well some people will disagree with ya.
I am one...for the very simple reason...
I can use Dragon for Artwork and Inspiration for 3.5/Pathfinder
I can Use Dungeon for Artwork and Inspiration for 3.5/Pathfinder
I can use GameTable for 3.5/Pathfinder
I can not use Character builder for 3.5/Pathfinder
nor the Monster Builder, Encounter Builder
I might be interested in the Visualizer..
WOTC is doing like many other companies already do. Such as Satalite and Cable providers...Packaging...I have to pay to get a few channels I watch..TBS, USA, HGTV, TNT....but they throw in 100 useless other channels.
Some people See it as a plus to get all the other channels...others don't.
Myself I rather pick exactly and pay only for what I use.
I dont see a problem with having tier packages
such as
Sage..E-zines and Bonus Tools
PC: E-zine, Character Builder, Visualizer, Game Table, Bonus Tools
God: E-zine, Character Builder, Visualizer, Monster Builder, Encounter Builder, Gametable, Bonus Tools
Wasnt needed if the gm controled the amount of items in the game, and could not allow people just free down time to create items, we never had enough time to really do so ourselves other then some few potions and scrolls
Read my sig: I am Not a Good DM. This means I do not base ANY game issues on the fallacy that, "Oh, the customer can fix our product FOR us, because certainly they should be smart enough to." That's imbecilic, and I don't appreciate them making my DM waste time we could be having fun fixing their stupid ideas.
@Skanvak: It's 60 bucks a year for the stuff right now, and lots of little perks, too. That seems like a one-time thing to me...
@John: The Tier Packaging idea is awesome. Nice.
(Not during the same game session mind you, that's a little more Chaotic Neutral than even I'M willing to go...)
DDi, on the other hand?
Sorry, I have to agree with many of the more negative posters here.
Even taking the smaller, thinner, chopped-down versions of Dungeon and Dragon into account, 99% of the stuff (with the exception of the articles on Drow, the Warforged article, and the playtest releases of the Artificer and Barbarian classes; all good) I really cannot use, and 75% of the DDi seems to be (as many others have pointed out) vaporware.
Sure, there are folks here & there who claim to have seen the character creator in action, and the PC generator, but guess what? Until the PUBLIC has these available, it is still, in effect, vaporware.
And frankly, neither my wife or I have the income to blow on vaporware.
I'll buy the books, but the Digital Initiative just isn't worth my time right now.
And frankly, neither my wife or I have the income to blow on vaporware.
And nobody's being asked to pay for "vaporware" at this time. This is a reduced price to reflect the reduced offerings.
For example, the game table is a program I can buy, but I will not subscribe to it (at least in the present situation). So I guess they will lose money on this program.
Now, I still can say that the product they are selling is not in a format that interest me. So if WotC want to sell it to me (and players like me, I hope I am not alone) they should change the way they distribute this product.
I am lobbying because I want to enjoy playing D&D and the DDi subscribing thingy has made thing tiedous.
Also, there is no need for DDI to play D&D. DDI is bonus stuff.
Also, there is no need for DDI to play D&D. DDI is bonus stuff.
There is no need for anything other than the three core books to play D&D. They are all expansion material. ("Bonus" is not the right word to use for them. They are not being granted in addition to any other purchase already made. However, to abuse the term in turn; )
As expansion material, they are "bonus" sales for WotC. If they want to get the money for them, they have to convince people to buy them. If the content, utility, and pricing do not do that, then WotC does not collect the "bonuses" for them.
Further, if the business model is not "right for players", then it will also not be "right for WotC", as they will not only fail to get any "bonus" money for selling it, but they will have lost out on the money spent to develop it.
There is no need for anything other than the three core books to play D&D. They are all expansion material. ("Bonus" is not the right word to use for them. They are not being granted in addition to any other purchase already made. However, to abuse the term in turn; )
As expansion material, they are "bonus" sales for WotC. If they want to get the money for them, they have to convince people to buy them. If the content, utility, and pricing do not do that, then WotC does not collect the "bonuses" for them.
Further, if the business model is not "right for players", then it will also not be "right for WotC", as they will not only fail to get any "bonus" money for selling it, but they will have lost out on the money spent to develop it.
I agree. Plus, as I stated to me Dragon and Dungeon magazine are not worth it a hard copy format (and I'm sorry PDF doesn't count). I think the D&D Insider is a good idea and people like myself my subscribe once the character generator and visualizer are up and running. As far as a business model I stand by my statement that WOTC hurt themselves by not allowing a third party producer to a)Either have this product ready to use as soon as D&D 4E was dropped like we were originally lead to believe, or b) at the very least have it up and running shortly thereafter. As it is I think WOTC has allowed a "buzz kill" to effect the product and the hype over the digital initiative has drastically died down from what it was when the product and 4E was first announced.
Peace,
Fallstorm
WoTC needs to take off the corporate tie and reconnect with itโs customer base; DDI may have been a good idea ( I donโt think it was buy hey Iโm old school) But it was presented in the worst way possible, and now it is incomplete, lacking, and not anywhere near the โbuild upโ (Read as Hype, and bait and switch) before 4E launched.
This isnโt going to end well folks, we all know that deep down inside, The D&D franchise has been strapped to a large boulder and pointed towards a very steep hill, not only is gravity working against it but there are also veteran gamers and better incarnations of the game that was created beforehandโฆ.and while they may not be kicking it over the edge they sure as hell arenโt doing anything to stop the inevitable drop....honestly...why should they?
That's what happens when you stop seeing the people playing the games and are only concerned about the bottom line.
They actually have products ready to sell and deliver them on time...:P.
Is it just me or does it seem that every time legitimate concerns and complaints about DDI are presented we have WoTC Volunteers showing us how flawed our logic is? It's kinda like being at a Amway meet and scam
WoTC needs to take off the corporate tie and reconnect with itโs customer base; DDI may have been a good idea ( I donโt think it was buy hey Iโm old school) But it was presented in the worst way possible, and now it is incomplete, lacking, and not anywhere near the โbuild upโ (Read as Hype, and bait and switch) before 4E launched.
I'll just jump Mudbunny on this and state that WotC never asked him to do ANYTHING. He's a Forum Volunteer, not a WotC Volunteer, and he (and I, and Wolfstar) simply have our own biases, just as you have yours.
This isnโt going to end well folks, we all know that deep down inside, The D&D franchise has been strapped to a large boulder and pointed towards a very steep hill, not only is gravity working against it but there are also veteran gamers and better incarnations of the game that was created beforehandโฆ.and while they may not be kicking it over the edge they sure as hell arenโt doing anything to stop the inevitable drop....honestly...why should they?
That's what happens when you stop seeing the people playing the games and are only concerned about the bottom line.
And here it is.
As a veteran player myself, I dislike how they presented 4E in the Ads in the PHB, how they need to revamp their main site and their Ad page for DDi to more accurately reflect what they're actually selling, that HASBRO now has the task-master's whip behind the company, and the fact that I can (apparently) do a better job grammar/spell-checking their books then THEY can. :rolleye2:
Other than that, however, I am quite happy with the online magazines, the Compendium (which is simply the best tool ever created; not even the Game Table will defeat it in my opinion unless the words "Virtual Reality" are included :D), and the Bonus Tools are somewhat useful here and there, so I do not mind paying a minimal price for these things on a yearly basis.
Is it just me or does it seem that every time legitimate concerns and complaints about DDI are presented we have WoTC Volunteers showing us how flawed our logic is? It's kinda like being at a Amway meet and scam
So, rather than combat faulty logic, those of us with differing opinions should just let people cry "foul" when they're basing their assumptions of wrong information?
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I make decisions based on erroneous information, I appreciate it when someone takes the time to show me what the facts really are.
It has been known to lead me to put my foot in my mouth, and sometimes I still mumble under my breath for a day or two, but once that facts have time to sink through my occasionally-thick skull, I'm happier for it in the long run.
WoTC needs to take off the corporate tie and reconnect with itโs customer base; DDI may have been a good idea ( I donโt think it was buy hey Iโm old school) But it was presented in the worst way possible, and now it is incomplete, lacking, and not anywhere near the โbuild upโ (Read as Hype, and bait and switch) before 4E launched.
This isnโt going to end well folks, we all know that deep down inside, The D&D franchise has been strapped to a large boulder and pointed towards a very steep hill, not only is gravity working against it but there are also veteran gamers and better incarnations of the game that was created beforehandโฆ.and while they may not be kicking it over the edge they sure as hell arenโt doing anything to stop the inevitable drop....honestly...why should they?
That's what happens when you stop seeing the people playing the games and are only concerned about the bottom line.
Despite your hyperbole, it seems you feel that the designers of 4E don't interact with their customers.
I'd love to know how/where you've come by this opinion, as I've seen the exact opposite.
At DDXP08 the lead designers all took the time to run tables of D&D for the players attending the convention. Though this was usually just at tables for the combat-heavy Dungeon Delve, I'm pretty sure they also seated the occasional table to run people through the preview modules.
At Origins, I saw Mike Mearls walking around, and stopping to talk to people, he even poked his head into the RPGA hall once or twice. Making himself available to the community.
At GenCon the dev team stopped off in Sagamore Ballroom a few times for Q&A and many of the staff were in the WotC booth talking to people from time to time as well. One of my friends even managed to stop one of them and raise a few issues with "Grab" mechanics.
At DDXP09 in Janurary, it's already been announced that the dev gang will be running tables of D&D yet again.
The point is they're getting out into the public AND playing games with the customers. Quite the opposite of your claims that they's stopped seeing people play the games.
DDI has some interesting concepts. Though some of the concepts you can find elsewhere for free.
If the price approaches the same prices as MMO's like Warcraft, Conan, Warhammer, etc...
What do you think people would subscribe to?
I honestly think that the price should stay low that way it does not turn people off. If it is around 15 a month people are going to be like...Well I can pay for the WoW subscription...or pay for DDI...
If the price is lower people can be more comfortable paying for it and not feeling like their money could have better went to some MMO. It should pull in more subscriptions and if played right you can make good money off of the volume.
Just some thoughts...I for one enjoyed some of the free content...not enough to pay for everything that I enjoyed plus articles I did not. It is a cool direction but pricing it close to MMO monthly subscriptions is going to hurt you.
And this is translating to abysmal sales at Game Shops. My local shop that has been in Business since 1976 sells more of the legacy 3.5 D&D and Palladium Fantasy (and it's a large Metro shop) than they do 4th edition.(The fact is hardly anyone is buying 4th edition)
At the 2 B&N stores near me (in the 2nd largest city in the US) where they used to carry 3.5 books, they still don't carry 4.0
That tells me all I need to know. I also checked with the game shop I started at in '78. The product stays on the shelves and he is pushing war games to make up for the loss in D&D sales.
Personally, I like what I see out of Dragon, Dungeon, the encounter builder, character builder and the monster builder. I have a full subscription. As they add more stuff, I will get more stuff.
Also, there is no need for DDI to play D&D. DDI is bonus stuff.
To be specific and to the point, I have a problem with what seems to be considered 'bonus' stuff. Allow me to explain.
I purchased the Forgotten RealmsPlayer's Guide. There were a lot of regions completely omitted from it, regions that had been included in the 3rd ed. FRPG.
I posted this in the ask the Realm's Designers thread:
A question for Mr. Baker.
There were several locales I wished to have information on in the FRPG that were left out, unless I just missed them: Eltugard, Evereska, Thesk...
Will that information be made available to us in the future in some form?
Thanks for the time and generosity.
This was my response:
They're discussed in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. But yeah, I would have liked to see 'em get the player-focused treatment in the FRPG. I think there's great room for a DRAGON article or two there. Let the folks at DRAGON know that you want to see 'em! I'll tell them too.
So, on that count, I would really like that information if it were placed in Dragon. This gives wizards a means to meet space requirements and still fill in left out information to keep customers happy. I was happy and passed the news on to a thread complaining about regions being left out of the FRPG. Then, everyone in the thread informed me that Dragon was a part of DDI and I would end up having to pay for it.
But when I purchased the the FRPG, I was purchasing
The complete guide for building Forgotten Realms characters!
taken from wizards advertising the release of the FRPG.
The previous incarnation of the FRPG along with wizards advertising left many people with the expectation that it would be there as seen from this thread:
I'm generally a fan of the changes made to FR for 4e, but one thing about the FRPG really annoys me: Many, many regions don't exist in the player's guide.
Now if I pay for 'The complete guide for building Forgotten Realms characters!' I don't appreciate that the omitted material is going to be used to draw me in to DDI when wizards could just periodically post FR articles to fill in the gaps for no extra charge and give me what I payed for.
To sum my opinion up using your own quote:
DDI is bonus stuff.
Why should I have to purchase bonus material to a complete (using wizards own words) anything, especially when considering many had the expectation of it being there because the omitted 'bonus' material was part of the previous edition's version?
Now if I pay for 'The complete guide for building Forgotten Realms characters!' I don't appreciate that the omitted material is going to be used to draw me in to DDI when wizards could just periodically post FR articles to fill in the gaps for no extra charge and give me what I payed for.
That is exactly the point of view of one of my player. He refuse to buy 4e edition product, not because he doesn't like the system (he plays with us) but because the product are sell not finished. In order to have a complete product you need all the expansions (think of the beast master ranger or tempest fighter) and dragon issues (illusionist spell for wizard for ex). That could made us just stop investing. Because we always find that BASIC elements of products are missing.
That could made us just stop investing. Because we always find that BASIC elements of products are missing.
That could be a reason for the almost non-existent post launch sales in the 3 stores I could check out.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Sales are different everywhere. Most of the people I knew bought them, and though we didn't play for months (we fell in to the stupid "hype" BS), when we finally cracked them open, we had a great time, and a few of my friends who couldn't stand all the math in 3E started playing and enjoying themselves again.
and a few of my friends who couldn't stand all the math in 3E started playing and enjoying themselves again.
What math?
What math?
Fighter adds:
BAB+STR+ENHANCE+WEAPFOC+FLANK+PA+BLESS+INSPIRE+ITEM+RACIAL
to his FIRST attack roll. Now for the second one it's:
5-BAB+STR+ENHANCE+WEAPFOC+....
Need I go on? 3.5 had a whole slew of stuff to make sure you hit enemies a good chunk of the time, because Non-Casters needed to be able to hit. This is even at a fairly low level, as it just gets worse as you get more Feats and Buffs.
Don't even get me started on calculating all your different ACs.
I'd love to know how/where you've come by this opinion, as I've seen the exact opposite.
At DDXP08 the lead designers all took the time to run tables of D&D for the players attending the convention. Though this was usually just at tables for the combat-heavy Dungeon Delve, I'm pretty sure they also seated the occasional table to run people through the preview modules.
At Origins, I saw Mike Mearls walking around, and stopping to talk to people, he even poked his head into the RPGA hall once or twice. Making himself available to the community.
At GenCon the dev team stopped off in Sagamore Ballroom a few times for Q&A and many of the staff were in the WotC booth talking to people from time to time as well. One of my friends even managed to stop one of them and raise a few issues with "Grab" mechanics.
At DDXP09 in Janurary, it's already been announced that the dev gang will be running tables of D&D yet again.
The point is they're getting out into the public AND playing games with the customers. Quite the opposite of your claims that they's stopped seeing people play the games.
Well in my experience....like alot and I mean alot of people..our experience is based on the interaction on the website and forums..
Not everyone was or will be fortunate enough to goto a Gencon, DDXP event
I for one have never had the Luxuary of Having anyone from WOTC jump on the train, plane or automobile and show up in this town at any store or my house and show off thier system to anyone. I don't see it happening..unless hell freezes over. I ain't had anyone email and say "hey John we wanna demostrate our stuff to you."
We see people in an"official" position come in and say "hi I represent WOTC in "x" official capasity, I will be here to answer your Questions." and then Poof they seem to disappear.. Some people actually wanna here truthful answers. Nothing is against Volunteers, they just can't answer the questions without stepping on Hasbro/WOTC Toes or violating NonDisclosure Agreements.
Here are some of the box answers for everything we ask
I/We will pass this onto someone in an official Capasity to look into
It's in the Works
We have an announcement comming soon on that issue
We are working on that situation and it will be resolved in the "near" future.
Our staff is working on releasing "x" product and playtesting "y" product, soon they will have time to work on the problem.
Fighter adds:
BAB+STR+ENHANCE+WEAPFOC+FLANK+PA+BLESS+INSPIRE+ITEM+RACIAL
Sounds like you aren't using char sheets with this data figured out. But, if this is what is considered too much math (simple addition) then perhaps a simpler type of game would be better?
Sounds like you aren't using char sheets with this data figured out. But, if this is what is considered too much math (simple addition) then perhaps a simpler type of game would be better?
Sigh...I can do vector calc in my head. My friends, on the other hand, did not appreciate coming to play this "amazingly cool game" we talked about, only to find themselves doing more Algebra homework. It was annoying having to worry about every buff, stat change, extra effect, racial/feat/item/etc bonus to your attack rolls, and then having to do it with multiple attack rolls. Then there were the many different forms of AC, all ALSO dependant on infinite amounts of outside sources and those sources' bonuses against etc, etc, etc.
Most people do not enjoy doing this in their free time. I did most of this stuff FOR people, because I can keep track of every effect going on for every character in an 8-player game with NPCs, to boot. I'm OCD. That's great for me, but horrible for most other people to even have to think about.
When I'm statting up EPIC-LEVEL 4E characters, I find myself looking for MORE bonuses to Attack Rolls, because surely 3-4 effects isn't the limit! Surely I MUST be missing something somewhere!! But no, I am usually not. Bonuses to Attack Rolls don't even have more than 5 or 6 different effects, max, and not only does this draw new players who hate math, it speeds up play immensely.
Also, 3.5 Skill System.
Also, BAB and Caster Levels for Multiclassing.
Also, CR.
@John Paul: Well, Randy showed up before, and we saw RESULTS, and how! I'm sure if we had enough people arguing against any one thing again, someone would probably come in and ask for some feedback.
All the free material leading up to the subscription was cool. I honestly, though, know that some months there will be better material than others. In a way currently, you are paying for a magazine without knowing whether it is crappy or if you like it.
Some issues of ANY magazine are going to be better than others. There's no guarantee that you're going to love every issue of Consumer Reports, Maxim, Reader's Digest, or Scientific American (or any other magazine). This is pretty standard fare with magazines and subscriptions.
Just some thoughts...I for one enjoyed some of the free content...not enough to pay for everything that I enjoyed plus articles I did not. It is a cool direction but pricing it close to MMO monthly subscriptions is going to hurt you.
Keep in mind that the current subscription rate (for the magazines, the compendium, and the bonus tools - nothing more) is btween $8 and $5 per month depending on your subscription length. That's far less than an MMO if you're interested in the magazines.
My friends, on the other hand, did not appreciate coming to play this "amazingly cool game" we talked about, only to find themselves doing more Algebra homework.
Wow! All these years playing 3.x and I've never had to get into Algebra, I'd love to see your house rules.
Keep in mind that the current subscription rate (for the magazines, the compendium, and the bonus tools - nothing more) is btween $8 and $5 per month depending on your subscription length. That's far less than an MMO if you're interested in the magazines.
May be, but when I buy a magazine I am not compell to subscribe. Second, I would have hope that the magazine were not necessary part of the core book but what they have been before, addition that you cantake or not.
The math that you speak of is something that should be figured out when the character is made. Some of the bonuses should be added to the total that you already have ready, like Bull's str and such, and isn't that hard.
I am still trying to figure out what to do with this new edition, but really have not played it enough to get a good grasp on it. There seems to be just as much math as the previous edition, but most is done in a level tier with additional being with powers and the overly expensive magical weapons that most characters won't get anyways. (unless the DM is kind)
Neither system is hard to figure out nor are they requiring a math quiz everytime you hit something, unless you don't complete the character in the first place.
Is it just me or does it seem that every time legitimate concerns and complaints about DDI are presented we have WoTC Volunteers showing us how flawed our logic is? It's kinda like being at a Amway meet and scam
WolfStar76 has already replied, but I feel that I should as well.
The concerns you have brought up may be legitimate to you. They are issues that have been brought up again and again since 4E was announced. WotC is aware of your concerns and, given that they are going ahead with 4E and DDI, they are concerns that they obviously don't agree with.
I don't agree with those concerns either. When people bring up those concerns, am I not allowed to show *how* I disagree with them and how I think that you are wrong?? That is the purpose of a message board. If you think that my opinion is wrong, please reply and let me know how I am wrong.
DDi simply is not worth the price offered. Vminis having to be paid for makes it less of a value.
Perhaps a mag subscription for 4 bucks a month, but the rest is junk.
Vminis having to be paid for makes it less of a value.
Just FYI, you don't have to pay for v-minis. That was something that has changed in the past months, in response to feedback from the community.
P.S. I am not trying to point out flaws in logic in response to a legitimate concern. Only hoping to clarify some mis-information.
WolfStar76 has already replied, but I feel that I should as well.
The concerns you have brought up may be legitimate to you. They are issues that have been brought up again and again since 4E was announced. WotC is aware of your concerns and, given that they are going ahead with 4E and DDI, they are concerns that they obviously don't agree with.
Just because WotC does not agree with them does not make them illegitimate either.
And just because WotC has not felt them to be relevant to date does not mean they may not change their minds in the future if more people express their concerns.
I don't agree with those concerns either. When people bring up those concerns, am I not allowed to show *how* I disagree with them and how I think that you are wrong?? That is the purpose of a message board. If you think that my opinion is wrong, please reply and let me know how I am wrong.
I already did that.
And several people agreed with me.
Just FYI, you don't have to pay for v-minis. That was something that has changed in the past months, in response to feedback from the community.
P.S. I am not trying to point out flaws in logic in response to a legitimate concern. Only hoping to clarify some mis-information.
Actually, if you read the announcement of that change, what they said was they are not planning to charge for v-minis now.
Since they have no product to use the v-minis for, that "change" is moot.
Further, if you continue reading that announcement, you will note that they left quite enough room for them to "change" their minds again and set up some system where people will have to pay for v-minis, once they figure out how to set such a product up.
Just clarifying all of the information. :D
WolfStar76 has already replied, but I feel that I should as well.
The concerns you have brought up may be legitimate to you. They are issues that have been brought up again and again since 4E was announced. WotC is aware of your concerns and, given that they are going ahead with 4E and DDI, they are concerns that they obviously don't agree with.
I don't agree with those concerns either. When people bring up those concerns, am I not allowed to show *how* I disagree with them and how I think that you are wrong?? That is the purpose of a message board. If you think that my opinion is wrong, please reply and let me know how I am wrong.
The last paragraph is what interests me because I am still waiting on a response to my post challenging your opinion of what is considered 'bonus stuff'.
To be specific and to the point, I have a problem with what seems to be considered 'bonus' stuff. Allow me to explain.
Why should I have to purchase bonus material to a complete (using wizards own words) anything, especially when considering many had the expectation of it being there because the omitted 'bonus' material was part of the previous edition's version?
Not to be flip, but were you really expecting WotC to never, ever publish anything else to expand on building characters in the realms?? That is fairly naive IMO.
I already did that.
And several people agreed with me.
And several people disagreed with you and agreed with me.
:shrug:
This actually sounds a lot more dismissive than it is meant to be. I don't mean to dismiss your concerns or your statement Samwise. Of course WotC will change their plans if it seems like there is a better plan out there. I never meant to imply otherwise. At this moment in time, this is the plan that they have decided to take.
Not to be flip, but were you really expecting WotC to never, ever publish anything else to expand on building characters in the realms?? That is fairly naive IMO.
No.
However, I believe that it is not unreasonable to assume that the regions included in the 3rd ed. players guide to the forgotten realms would be included in the 4th ed. FRPG.
The 3rd. ed. had many character building features added in a 'zillion' source books such as Shining South and Silver Marches. Everyone expected extras such as that to be in something like DDI since they said they would only publish two books. We expected the regions to be included in the FRPG, if nothing more than in the form of a chart showing regional bonuses.
Do you honestly expect me or anyone else to believe you were not being flip when you say I am being fairly naive? Technically, as applies to the CoC, you may have only been referring to your interpretation of my post, but we are not idiots.
However, I believe that it is not unreasonable to assume that the regions included in the 3rd ed. players guide to the forgotten realms would be included in the 4th ed. FRPG.
Why would you expect that?? When they printed the 4E PHB, there were classes and races cut and new ones added. It is not unreasonable to make the logical extension that they were going to do the same thing to the 4E FRPG and FRCG.
And several people disagreed with you and agreed with me.
Nobody has disagreed with my comments yet.
You must be thinking of disagreement with comments from others that appeared after mine.
:shrug:
This actually sounds a lot more dismissive than it is meant to be. I don't mean to dismiss your concerns or your statement Samwise. Of course WotC will change their plans if it seems like there is a better plan out there. I never meant to imply otherwise. At this moment in time, this is the plan that they have decided to take.
I did not express concerns, I contradicted your presentation of facts. You have not replied to that, which makes this rather totally dismissive.
ere is what I said:
There is no need for anything other than the three core books to play D&D. They are all expansion material. ("Bonus" is not the right word to use for them. They are not being granted in addition to any other purchase already made. However, to abuse the term in turn; )
As expansion material, they are "bonus" sales for WotC. If they want to get the money for them, they have to convince people to buy them. If the content, utility, and pricing do not do that, then WotC does not collect the "bonuses" for them.
Further, if the business model is not "right for players", then it will also not be "right for WotC", as they will not only fail to get any "bonus" money for selling it, but they will have lost out on the money spent to develop it.
Now if you want to address definitions of "bonus" and the "rightness" of business models, please do.
If you just disagree that is fine too, but then throwing around terms like "legitimate" as applying to terms becomes very dismissive. Add in WolfStar76 calling things "faulty logic" and "misinformation", and it becomes even more dismissive. Disagreeing with either of you is neither, and it moves from dismissive to outright rude to use such terms.
As for whether WotC might change their plans, that was a reply to something AsmodeusLore said.
The relevant issue there is that when someone is presenting "facts" about what WotC is currently doing, mentioning that WotC has said those plans are "subject to change" is rather relevant, especially when it applies to a product not even on the schedule, let alone not available.
There is no need for anything other than the three core books to play D&D. They are all expansion material. ("Bonus" is not the right word to use for them. They are not being granted in addition to any other purchase already made. However, to abuse the term in turn; )
As expansion material, they are "bonus" sales for WotC. If they want to get the money for them, they have to convince people to buy them. If the content, utility, and pricing do not do that, then WotC does not collect the "bonuses" for them.
Further, if the business model is not "right for players", then it will also not be "right for WotC", as they will not only fail to get any "bonus" money for selling it, but they will have lost out on the money spent to develop it.
As a business plan, it doesn't have to be "right for all players", it just have to be right for enough players that it pays the bills and brings in a profit. At which point in time WotC will no-doubt look at the various numbers and other pieces of data they have gathered, and decide whether it is worth the risk to try to change their business plan to a different model.
As for whether it is "bonus" material or extras or expansion material, I agree with you wholeheartedly. To play 4E, you only need the three core books. Anything you get after that is, from my point of view, a bonus that you can add into your world/game/D&D experience.
The relevant issue there is that when someone is presenting "facts" about what WotC is currently doing, mentioning that WotC has said those plans are "subject to change" is rather relevant, especially when it applies to a product not even on the schedule, let alone not available.
Which is why I have been rather consistent in saying that WotC hasn't decided on the pricing plans of the intermediate plans between now and the final suite where everything is available. That they are discussing it and that a number of possible plans are on the table.
My apologies Samwise. Somewhere between your post that I am replying to now, and my last reply to you prior to this, it appears that the topic I replied to you about had diverged from what you were talking about.
Yes it did. Significantly.
So now that we are back on track:
As a business plan, it doesn't have to be "right for all players", it just have to be right for enough players that it pays the bills and brings in a profit. At which point in time WotC will no-doubt look at the various numbers and other pieces of data they have gathered, and decide whether it is worth the risk to try to change their business plan to a different model.
I would submit that at this point in time WotC has already done that. That is why we have 4E and the DDI.
I also submit that they have done it again. That is why we have a partial product DDI subscription available, as well as a new miniature product line.
I suspect that by the time they do it yet again to a significant degree, it will come with significant corporate changes.
It may have changed since then, but I doubt that Wizards would actually do the smart thing and leave it at the current price for the whole package. They keep seeing the Massive Online Roll Playing Games and the money that is being taken in by them.
The fact that there are failed games out there that have closed shop (Mostly the inferior games with 80's graphics and horrible mechanics) and others that have not done nearly the amount that the big guns like WoW and Evercrack has done.
I still haven't saw a replacement for the yanked E-Tools.
Which is why I have been rather consistent in saying that WotC hasn't decided on the pricing plans of the intermediate plans between now and the final suite where everything is available. That they are discussing it and that a number of possible plans are on the table.
Which is good.
However, it also explains why other people have significantly different views of the available plans and what WotC will do in the future.
That makes it rather poor form when some people tell others they are "wrong" for saying they will not subscribe to DDI if some particular thing happens. They are not wrong about what the current plan is, they are saying what future circumstances will make it so they do not subscribe, which is quite reasonable given the unsettled nature of the future plans.
That makes it rather poor form when some people tell others they are "wrong" for saying they will not subscribe to DDI if some particular thing happens. They are not wrong about what the current plan is, they are saying what future circumstances will make it so they do not subscribe, which is quite reasonable given the unsettled nature of the future plans.
I agree completely with you.
For some people, what they are offering mixed with what they are charging, both for the current web-content as well as the final complete suite of tools is acceptable.
For others, it is not. And it is not up to me to tell them that they are wrong. No-one can. Each person must decide for themselves if it is worth it or not.
Why would you expect that?? When they printed the 4E PHB, there were classes and races cut and new ones added. It is not unreasonable to make the logical extension that they were going to do the same thing to the 4E FRPG and FRCG.
That is a bad analogy.
In the PHB, 2 races were removed and 2 were added. In the FRPG, several regions were removed and replaced with regions from Abeir. However, all the missing regions listed in the thread of my original post still remained a part of the Forgotten Realms.
Also, to my knowledge, the 4th ed. PHB was advertised as something like everything you need to play but was not advertised as the complete guide to creating characters.
Those are the two faults with the analogy: 1. Trying to compare races with regions, not to mention that the numbers do not favor the comparison. 2. A large chunk of my argument is based on the advertising and it was completely different for the two books.
Edit Note; I discussed races but not classes. it doesnot make a difference however...
That is a bad analogy.
In the PHB, 2 races were removed and 2 were added. In the FRPG, several regions were removed and replaced with regions from Abeir. However, all the missing regions listed in the thread of my original post still remained a part of the Forgotten Realms.
Also, to my knowledge, the 4th ed. PHB was advertised as something like everything you need to play but was not advertised as the complete guide to creating characters.
Those are the two faults with the analogy: 1. Trying to compare races with regions, not to mention that the numbers do not favor the comparison. 2. A large chunk of my argument is based on the advertising and it was completely different for the two books.
Edit Note; I discussed races but not classes. it doesnot make a difference however...
I don't see it that way. It all comes down to opinion and what you (generic, not specific) feel is what is required to be complete.
I don't see it that way. It all comes down to opinion and what you (generic, not specific) feel is what is required to be complete.
Impasse reached. Agree to disagree?
Impasse reached. Agree to disagree?
I am not sure if we are allowed to do that. I think it breaks some sort of internet rule or something like that. :D
Oh yeah, I agree to disagree.
Well after all it has been delivered on time
As Much as I like Paizo, I have to disagree here. Pathfinder is not nor has it ever been intended to be a replacement for Dungeon. Dungeon offered more than 1 play option each month..
Personally I went with the Gamemastery Modual Subscription..And will start geting the Pathfinder Society scenarios
Well yeah I wasn't meaning that it was a perfect replacement for Dungeon and that it filled all of the niches that Dungeon filled but it did continue the tradition of the great adventure paths that Paizo started in Dungeon and the books were made more durable than a magazine (yeah they cost more but they will last a lot longer too). Honestly I just want to buy just about every supplement that Paizo publishes, I find top notch quality there, they listen to the gaming community and they communicate in a friendly approachable manner, not as if they are doing the public some kind of huge favor by showing their faces once in a while, they actually act like real human beings who are working together with the community on a project that just happens to revolve around gaming. That is going to win a lot of fans in and of itself and quite honestly I like their campaign setting well enough that I see no reason not to set my games in that world for the foreseeable future. To those of you out there who think i just want to insult Wizards of the Coast and puff Paizo; that is not my attention. I see Wizards (who was my favorite game company up until the release of 4e) making some huge mistakes. It is my hope that they get jealous in a good way and take some inspiration from what Paizo is doing right and perhaps they will turn this whole D&D mess that they have created around before it is to late for the brand name. IN my opinion the only good game that Wizards is actively publishing material for right now, is Star Wars Saga (I would include D20 Modern but I don't think anything new is being published for it right now). For goodness sake what is a modern rpg going to look like if they try to tack this D&D 4e system onto it? Now if they make it fast and loose like Feng Shui then maybe we will talk but daily, encounter, at-will, and utility powers for modern characters or worse yet serious sci-fi if they do a future supplement??? It makes me cringe to even think about it.
Charles
While you're welcome to play any system you like, I'd like to try and keep this thread (and really the entire DDI forum) from turning into an "edition war".
Your disinterest and dislike of 4E is duly noted.
With all due respect and I know that you are a community lead, but I think these particular edition wars will die when 4e dies. Many people who still like D&D in principle are simply not going to let what Wizards did to their game go down easily and the consumers do have the power to kill 4e.
Charles
Some of us really, really like the Magic Item Nerf.
Well minorities (not talking about racial or anything of the sort just numbers) do exist I suppose but they don't pay the bills. ;)
Charles
You need to be careful about small observations like this.
My local shop can't keep 4E stuff on the shelf. I talked to the owner, and he is selling about 10X as much 4E stuff (and keep in mind that there are a lot fewer 4E products out) as 3.5 stuff.
Theer are a lot of factiors that could influence this:
- the type of games preferred by the gamers in the area;
- the attitude of the owner/employees;
- cost of the books at the FLGS as compared to Amazon/internet vendor.
What it boils down to is that you can't get an accurate gauge of how well (or poorly) a product is doing by looking at one specific shop. DO that, and you inevitable get counter arguments of shops where it is doing well. To get accurate views, you need to look at national numbers, collected in an unbiased manner.
You can get some indications (print runs of the core books selling out) that 4E is doing well. You can get other indications that it is doing really well (The H2 module sold out of it's first couple of print runs). But that is in isolation. You need to look at the overall picture over a significant period of time to get any real data. Short term, and localized data points don't give accurate numbers.
Well just look at the ratings on Amazon.com then, D&D 4e books are consistently rated at 2.5 to 3 stars out of a possible 5 and the majority of reviews from people who have actually bought the books are negative or ho-hum, for video game reviews which I follow also this is the writing on the wall; you find 'em in the $5.00 - $10.00 bin within a few weeks. For rpgs it can't be a good sign either. Oh and for the record where I live I know of no gamers personally that have switched to 4e and some (including me) who bought the books tried the game, took them back to the store and traded them in for Pathfinder stuff. I talk to gamers fairly regularly around where I live (near Lexington, KY) in local gaming stores, who have opted out of 4e and are going either standard 3.5 or Pathfinder as far as fantasy gaming is concerned.
Charles
With all due respect and I know that you are a community lead, but I think these particular edition wars will die when 4e dies. Many people who still like D&D in principle are simply not going to let what Wizards did to their game go down easily and the consumers do have the power to kill 4e.
Charles
With all due respect, I think these particular edition wars will never die. Many people who still like D&D in principle are simply too happy with 4e to let it go down easily and the consumers do have the power to keep 4e going for years.
Well just look at the ratings on Amazon.com then, D&D 4e books are consistently rated at 2.5 to 3 stars out of a possible 5
Charles
I just went there now and I call shananagans...it is 12:20 est and here is the line up:
177 Reviews
5 star: (66)
4 star: (30)
3 star: (21)
2 star: (20)
1 star: (40)
Average Customer Review
(177 customer reviews) More 5 star reviews then 1 and 2 togather...
here is a link: http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0786950633/ref=lmf_1_rsrsrs0_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
and just to be fair a new book as well:
Customer Reviews
Adventurer's Vault: A 4th Edition D&D Supplement
20 Reviews
5 star: (8)
4 star: (9)
3 star: (2)
2 star: (0)
1 star: (1)
Average Customer Review
(20 customer reviews)
The question is not whether it is wrong for most players, the question is "is it right for WotC".
And that is exactly the kind of thinking that will drive a company out of business. If a companies main goal is not to please its consumer base and keep them happy and coming back they might as well close up shop and quit breathing the air of someone who wants to do it the way it is supposed to be done.
Charles
And that is exactly the kind of thinking that will drive a company out of business. If a companies main goal is not to please its consumer base and keep them happy and coming back they might as well close up shop and quit breathing the air of someone who wants to do it the way it is supposed to be done.
Charles
TSR went out of buisness trying to please it's fans...WotC needs to walk the tight rope of good for customer...goood for itself.
Being in buisness doesn't make one the bad guy...inless your goal is for them NOT to make money...
So, rather than combat faulty logic, those of us with differing opinions should just let people cry "foul" when they're basing their assumptions of wrong information?
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I make decisions based on erroneous information, I appreciate it when someone takes the time to show me what the facts really are.
It has been known to lead me to put my foot in my mouth, and sometimes I still mumble under my breath for a day or two, but once that facts have time to sink through my occasionally-thick skull, I'm happier for it in the long run.
Despite your hyperbole, it seems you feel that the designers of 4E don't interact with their customers.
I'd love to know how/where you've come by this opinion, as I've seen the exact opposite.
At DDXP08 the lead designers all took the time to run tables of D&D for the players attending the convention. Though this was usually just at tables for the combat-heavy Dungeon Delve, I'm pretty sure they also seated the occasional table to run people through the preview modules.
At Origins, I saw Mike Mearls walking around, and stopping to talk to people, he even poked his head into the RPGA hall once or twice. Making himself available to the community.
At GenCon the dev team stopped off in Sagamore Ballroom a few times for Q&A and many of the staff were in the WotC booth talking to people from time to time as well. One of my friends even managed to stop one of them and raise a few issues with "Grab" mechanics.
At DDXP09 in Janurary, it's already been announced that the dev gang will be running tables of D&D yet again.
The point is they're getting out into the public AND playing games with the customers. Quite the opposite of your claims that they's stopped seeing people play the games.
Oh come on man, go over and spend some time on the Pathfinder forums and you will find out what designers spending time with the community is like. Wizards of the Coast doesn't even come close. The closest that I have ever seen a Wizards employee come to the openness, approachability and honesty with the community of Paizo was Linae Foster and we all know where that story ended. Scott Rouse has done pretty well too but lately he has been quite silent, swamped by work I suppose in the absence of Linae and Ken Troop... um ok he is the guy who made this statement "it never occurred to me that some players might feel misled about not having tools available at launch." he had the audacity to actually say that after huge and probably expensive ad campaign that was in the back of every one of the 4e core books? Did he even read the ads? Did he read the numerous times that D&D insider tools were spoken of in the core books themselves? But it never occurred to him that people might feel misled that these tools were not available at launch. Something about that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Nope Wizards doesn't do much in the way of communicating with the community and when they do they just make a show and then go off and do what they were going to do anyway most of the time until people make such a noise over something that they can no longer be ignored.
Charles
Charles
To be specific and to the point, I have a problem with what seems to be considered 'bonus' stuff. Allow me to explain.
I purchased the Forgotten RealmsPlayer's Guide. There were a lot of regions completely omitted from it, regions that had been included in the 3rd ed. FRPG.
I posted this in the ask the Realm's Designers thread:
This was my response:
So, on that count, I would really like that information if it were placed in Dragon. This gives wizards a means to meet space requirements and still fill in left out information to keep customers happy. I was happy and passed the news on to a thread complaining about regions being left out of the FRPG. Then, everyone in the thread informed me that Dragon was a part of DDI and I would end up having to pay for it.
But when I purchased the the FRPG, I was purchasing
taken from wizards advertising the release of the FRPG.
The previous incarnation of the FRPG along with wizards advertising left many people with the expectation that it would be there as seen from this thread:
Now if I pay for 'The complete guide for building Forgotten Realms characters!' I don't appreciate that the omitted material is going to be used to draw me in to DDI when wizards could just periodically post FR articles to fill in the gaps for no extra charge and give me what I payed for.
To sum my opinion up using your own quote:
Why should I have to purchase bonus material to a complete (using wizards own words) anything, especially when considering many had the expectation of it being there because the omitted 'bonus' material was part of the previous edition's version?
I completely agree, this is the stuff that they used to call Web Enhancements and they were completely free, and most game companies still have things like this that are completely free.
Charles
I just went there now and I call shananagans...it is 12:20 est and here is the line up:
177 Reviews
5 star: (66)
4 star: (30)
3 star: (21)
2 star: (20)
1 star: (40)
Average Customer Review
(177 customer reviews) More 5 star reviews then 1 and 2 togather...
here is a link: http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0786950633/ref=lmf_1_rsrsrs0_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
and just to be fair a new book as well:
Customer Reviews
Adventurer's Vault: A 4th Edition D&D Supplement
20 Reviews
5 star: (8)
4 star: (9)
3 star: (2)
2 star: (0)
1 star: (1)
Average Customer Review
(20 customer reviews)
Well I suppose if you count the Character Sheet reviews.
Here is the average Star Rundown as it is now and admitedly it is somewhat better than I have seen it in the past at present but it does fluctuate a little but not much.
Core Book Gift Set 3.5 Stars
Players Handbook 3 Stars
DM Guide 3 Stars
Monster Manual 2.5 Stars
Adventurers Vault 4 Stars... not bad.
Forgotten Realms Players Guide 3 Stars
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide 2.5 Stars
I am not doing Character Sheets or modules else KOtSF would be next I am concerned mainly with hardcover books, nor am I doing minis, DM Screens or dungeon tiles (because dungeon tiles and minis can be system independent).
So over all you could say that D&D 4e is doing average on Amazon.com if the reviews mean anything, with the FRCG a little below average and the AV a bit above. The gift book set is a little different the reviewers don't always go based on content but how nice it looks and things like that as well.
Care to compare those ratings to the Ratings of Pathfinder Products???
Pathfinder RPG Beta 5 Stars (and it is only a Beta)
Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting 5 Stars
Well I just noticed that there are not very many Amazon reviews for Pathfinder products so the comparison isn't really working out to well numbers wise.
But in order to support everything that is going on at Wizards, D&D Insider and all the ratings need to be better than average.
Charles
And that is exactly the kind of thinking that will drive a company out of business. If a companies main goal is not to please its consumer base and keep them happy and coming back they might as well close up shop and quit breathing the air of someone who wants to do it the way it is supposed to be done.
Charles
Your opinions, I'm sure, are duly noted, but they are not fact, nor are they the majority.
With all due respect and I know that you are a community lead, but I think these particular edition wars will die when 4e dies. Many people who still like D&D in principle are simply not going to let what Wizards did to their game go down easily and the consumers do have the power to kill 4e.
but they won't.
our group, as an example, is 4 out of 5 pro-4e. the wizard, who wanted to stay wizard, was against it. then we told him that he could play a bugbear ranger. he liked the thought and is giving it a try. (he'll likely never play a wizard again with us, but we'll see what happens when more rituals come out and he sees that he can actually do his favorite utility spells all day long.)
Well I suppose if you count the Character Sheet reviews.
witch I didn't it was the 3 pack and the adventurers vault
Care to compare those ratings to the Ratings of Pathfinder Products???
I would...but the number of reviews says it all...WotC has much much more
Well I just noticed that there are not very many Amazon reviews for Pathfinder products so the comparison isn't really working out to well numbers wise.
atleast you see that
But in order to support everything that is going on at Wizards, D&D Insider and all the ratings need to be better than average.
why...WotC makes more money then piazo...what is a little hickup in sales to WotC could rip Piazo apart...
TSR went out of buisness trying to please it's fans...WotC needs to walk the tight rope of good for customer...goood for itself.
Being in buisness doesn't make one the bad guy...inless your goal is for them NOT to make money...
TSR went out of business because they thought their fans were mindless drones who would buy anything and everything they put out regardless of quality. And lets not forget the MPGNet debacle. At the end, TSR wasn't trying to please its fans, it was trying to milk them.
TSR went out of business because they thought their fans were mindless drones who would buy anything and everything they put out regardless of quality. And lets not forget the MPGNet debacle. At the end, TSR wasn't trying to please its fans, it was trying to milk them.
Funny, I read this & thought you were referring to the current WotC.
me too.I should say that being against the current DDi does not make me against 4E. Beside, edition wars is pointless. You still can play the old edition if you want.
The problem with DDi is that it tend to compell people to spend money on a recurring basis which is not what all time rolepayer were doing. But the main problem with that is that generally it is the DM that pay and not the player. The point in the RPG is that they are a cheap game. If you make them expensive, then customer are likely to move to another game.
I might suggest GROUP subcription (for the same price) instead of individual subcription. So that at least we don't feel too much milked just for playing.
Your opinions, I'm sure, are duly noted, but they are not fact, nor are they the majority.
Chuckle... hmmm yes their are certain minorities that believe that. ;)
Charles
I should say that being against the current DDi does not make me against 4E. Beside, edition wars is pointless. You still can play the old edition if you want.
The problem with DDi is that it tend to compell people to spend money on a recurring basis which is not what all time rolepayer were doing. But the main problem with that is that generally it is the DM that pay and not the player. The point in the RPG is that they are a cheap game. If you make them expensive, then customer are likely to move to another game.
I might suggest GROUP subcription (for the same price) instead of individual subcription. So that at least we don't feel too much milked just for playing.
I honestly don't think edition wars are pointless, I don't think that any discussion (as long as it can be kept at least semi-civil) of what people do and do not like about a certain game system and the editions that have gone before it is pointless. In fact such a discussion if used correctly by the staff at Wizards (or whoever ends up with the D&D license in the end) could be invaluable IF they would use it in the development of a game system that would win back the hearts of everyone involved in the discussion. Man I don't care if you are for or against D&D 4e the fact of the matter is that a whole heck of a lot of people left D&D when 4e was released and for the first time in the history of D&D those people don't need the current edition of D&D they have Pathfinder to run to and they don't have to change their existing campaigns much if any in order to use it. Pathfinder RPG might just be in Beta right now but it is a very playable Beta, I run a campaign with it almost every weekend right now. This is not a brag on Pathfinder session but I don't think Pathfinder is going to be a hiccup or just a bump in the road, folks a WHOLE lot of people support that system and just about all of them came to it from D&D 3.5 customers that Wizards used to have. No matter how you slice it this has caused much hurt to Wizards of the Coast.
I think the best thing that Wizards could do now is begin design on D&D 5e if they haven't already, and build a game that will appeal to the current 4e crowd and the current 3.5 / Pathfinder crowd, but even if they did it might arrive a day late and a dollar short and if it didn't just awe the socks off of everybody it would probably just get ignored. Paizo is set up to become a major contender in this game I think, bigger than Green Ronin, Necromancer Games, Goodman Games, Kenzer and Co. and probably Mongoose Publishing. Thing is though, they will be willing to work with all of those companies and allow them to produce third party products for their game through the ogl without signing a ridiculously restrictive GSL. You know what I think? I think the guys at Wizards of the Coast saw Hasbro coming before they got there and they wanted to ensure that Hasbro a toy company would never be able to kill D&D so what did they do? They came up with the OGL and quite literally gave the central essence of D&D to the gaming community at large. Now Wizards and Hasbro can own the D&D brand name but nobody can ever really own D&D any more. Like the Linux operating system there are different distributions of D&D all built around the same core components they have different elements tagged on in different places but they are all mostly capable of working together. The ones that will be forgotten in the end will likely be the ones that stray to far from the standard and isolate themselves. You see Wizards of the Coast no longer owns the standard, not really it is free to develop and grow as the community breaths life into it.
A restrictive GSL will never be able to compete with something like that. Once Pathfinder is fully established around August of 2009 third party publishers will jump on board in droves and if Wizards of the Coast is still dragging it behind with its little joke of a GSL then they will be left in the dust to pick up the pieces of their broken empire. It happened with IBM and the PC and the only reason it hasn't happened with Microsoft is because they have an established user base that dwarfs the D&D user base by several million if not billion installed users, legal or illegal.
Charles
Chuckle... hmmm yes their are certain minorities that believe that. ;)
Charles
Because condescension makes you right AND feel better. :rolleye2:
Funny, I read this & thought you were referring to the current WotC.
Heh.
Well, history is certainly repeating itself. Declining physical quality, and this whole subscription thing which looks more like a raw deal every time I come here to discuss it.
Now I do have to say that what I've read of the 4th edition material has been mostly good, even if it is printed in erasable ink. But then, so was Greenwood's FR even to the last days. Management is crapping in this punchbowl, not the talent.
All I can say is I'm damn glad there are other really excellent systems out there, most of which don't even depend on the OGL for their existence.
Now I do have to say that what I've read of the 4th edition material has been mostly good, even if it is printed in erasable ink.
Just try it. It's a totally new game. You can't use your like or dislike of any previous D&D version to know if you'll like it or not.
Just try it. It's a totally new game. You can't use your like or dislike of any previous D&D version to know if you'll like it or not.
You must have me mistaken for someone else. I've played 4e. I like it. I don't believe I've ever come down on either side of the Avenger War. I don't have the books right now, but that's a quality issue, not a game system issue.
I wasn't talking about whether 4e the mechanical system was good or playable or better or worse than other systems, I was talking about the quality of the content and that there are viable options should D&D tank again like it did 10 years ago.
I would ask that all the people involved in this little spat stop. It seemed pretty clear to me that Mead was saying that he has played and enjoyed 4E up to this point. It would be appreciated by all involved in the thread, whether readers or posters, that this little argument stop.
Takes off VCL hat
Puts on VCL Hat
I would ask that all the people involved in this little spat stop. It seemed pretty clear to me that Mead was saying that he has played and enjoyed 4E up to this point. It would be appreciated by all involved in the thread, whether readers or posters, that this little argument stop.
Takes off VCL hat
If it was clear I wouldn't have prompted him to play 4E
Go drink some coffee, it wasn't a spat.
bunny, quick OT question: are you able to delete sticky etc posts now by yourself,
God, I hope not. That one was badly botched.
In addition, VCLs are not allowed to request that posts be deleted at all.
We can make the following thread reqests:
Move
Close
Open
Stick
Unstick
Do not archive
Merge
We cannot ask for the following:
Delete
Ban
Edit
i'd liked to know someone with power who i could delude into taking wrong actions ;)
but good to know.
Baron, you should join my 4e game. I take bribes. $20 per reroll.
well, that's not what i had in mind, but sure - bring it over to vienna, austria, and i'm cool with that.
ah: and send me a #26 sabres jersey for free as a goodwill gift.
*points* Internets. We don't need to be in the same country to game, bro.
well, this makes at least the bribing easier.
As for whether it is "bonus" material or extras or expansion material, I agree with you wholeheartedly. To play 4E, you only need the three core books. Anything you get after that is, from my point of view, a bonus that you can add into your world/game/D&D experience.
I have all three books, and I cannot play because there are not any players within a 100 miles of me. I bought the books with the knowledge of DDI being up and running within a short time, and the ability to find players online. For me DDI is not a bonus it is the reason I got back into D&D, except there is no DDI as it was touted at the various exhibitions it was advertised at. This leaves me out $100 or more as I sit around for six months waiting for DDI to come online. I completely agree that I will no longer waste my money or time on WoTC or their products. The entire thing disgusts me!
I have all three books, and I cannot play because there are not any players within a 100 miles of me. I bought the books with the knowledge of DDI being up and running within a short time, and the ability to find players online. For me DDI is not a bonus it is the reason I got back into D&D, except there is no DDI as it was touted at the various exhibitions it was advertised at. This leaves me out $100 or more as I sit around for six months waiting for DDI to come online. I completely agree that I will no longer waste my money or time on WoTC or their products. The entire thing disgusts me!
I'm curious where you're located.
While it isn't impossible, it's highly unlikely you're the only player within 100 miles. I'd like to search the RPGA database and see if I can't find plublic games available to you.
Have you tried contacting local gaming stores? If they're selling 4E books there are other players.
Check college campuses and/or assorted local bulletin boards as they often have groups looking for players as well.
Well just look at the ratings on Amazon.com then, D&D 4e books are consistently rated at 2.5 to 3 stars out of a possible 5 and the majority of reviews from people who have actually bought the books are negative or ho-hum, for video game reviews which I follow also this is the writing on the wall; you find 'em in the $5.00 - $10.00 bin within a few weeks. For rpgs it can't be a good sign either. Oh and for the record where I live I know of no gamers personally that have switched to 4e and some (including me) who bought the books tried the game, took them back to the store and traded them in for Pathfinder stuff. I talk to gamers fairly regularly around where I live (near Lexington, KY) in local gaming stores, who have opted out of 4e and are going either standard 3.5 or Pathfinder as far as fantasy gaming is concerned.
Charles
So I just went to Amazon to check on how the DnD line was doing, and here is what I saw: top selling product in role-playing and fantasy category is Martial Power, second is the Core Rulebook Giftset, then in third place Adventurer's Vault, fourth place the Draconomicon, fifth place FR Player's Guide, sixth place Player's Handbook, seventh Dungeon Master's screen... I think if I were the WotC marketing department, I'd be pretty pleased with the sales the game is making, and in no hurry whatsoever to start putting the books into the 5 dollar bargain bin...!!
I'm curious where you're located.
While it isn't impossible, it's highly unlikely you're the only player within 100 miles. I'd like to search the RPGA database and see if I can't find plublic games available to you.
Have you tried contacting local gaming stores? If they're selling 4E books there are other players.
Check college campuses and/or assorted local bulletin boards as they often have groups looking for players as well.
I was exaggerating a little, but only a little. The nearest game I can get into is around 30+ miles away. For someone like me on a limited budget that can get expensive. Not to mention time consuming also. I live in Jefferson, AR 72079. I've searched many different databases for local players and games, and the closest is 30+ miles.
The nearest store that sells D&D books is 40 miles away. The sole reason I bought the books was the promise that *soon* we would be able to log into WoTC and play online with people around the world without having to leave our homes.
To me WoTC pretty much lied cheated and stole my money through false advertising and irresponsible decision making. While I also believe 4e is a very well made game and has many improvements over 3.5e, I think that with everyone getting busy and the competition with MMO games that going fully online would have been the best way to go.
I was exaggerating a little, but only a little. The nearest game I can get into is around 30+ miles away. For someone like me on a limited budget that can get expensive. Not to mention time consuming also. I live in Jefferson, AR 72079. I've searched many different databases for local players and games, and the closest is 30+ miles.
I'm shocked to see that you're right. Looks like your nearest shop is "The Daily Planet".
If you'd like, however, I'd be more than happy to help you start a local RPGA gaming group - all you need is a place to play, and a little word-of-mouth. It isn't a "custom" gaming experience like a homebrew campaign, but it can be a great way to get your fix - and possibly branch off into homebrew D&D.
The nearest store that sells D&D books is 40 miles away. The sole reason I bought the books was the promise that *soon* we would be able to log into WoTC and play online with people around the world without having to leave our homes.
To me WoTC pretty much lied cheated and stole my money through false advertising and irresponsible decision making. While I also believe 4e is a very well made game and has many improvements over 3.5e, I think that with everyone getting busy and the competition with MMO games that going fully online would have been the best way to go.
I'm truly sorry you felt that way. I honestly don't know how people signed up thinking they were getting the game table - or any other tool that wasn't listed in the "what you get" section of the website, but I guess it does happen.
Have you tried any of the other VTTs? They're not (IMHO) as nice as what WotC is looking to offer when their time comes, but it beats the pants off not playing at all.
Some are paid (my personal favorite, for example, Fantasy Grounds II), but others are fully free of charge and cross-platform (maptool comes to mind). So while they aren't what WotC hopes to deliver - at least all you'd be out for trying them is time.
I'm shocked to see that you're right. Looks like your nearest shop is "The Daily Planet".
If you'd like, however, I'd be more than happy to help you start a local RPGA gaming group - all you need is a place to play, and a little word-of-mouth. It isn't a "custom" gaming experience like a homebrew campaign, but it can be a great way to get your fix - and possibly branch off into homebrew D&D.
I'm truly sorry you felt that way. I honestly don't know how people signed up thinking they were getting the game table - or any other tool that wasn't listed in the "what you get" section of the website, but I guess it does happen.
Have you tried any of the other VTTs? They're not (IMHO) as nice as what WotC is looking to offer when their time comes, but it beats the pants off not playing at all.
Some are paid (my personal favorite, for example, Fantasy Grounds II), but others are fully free of charge and cross-platform (maptool comes to mind). So while they aren't what WotC hopes to deliver - at least all you'd be out for trying them is time.
I didnt like the look of 4E myself but bought it knowing I wouldnt get the game table right away but its been a year and no sign of it. , my group now lives about an hour apart from each other and none of us like 4E but we could have put up with it if the game table had worked, like was talked about, but if we are going to have use a work a round will use a better system until maybe dnd 5 or 6
I didnt like the look of 4E myself but bought it knowing I wouldnt get the game table right away but its been a year and no sign of it. , my group now lives about an hour apart from each other and none of us like 4E but we could have put up with it if the game table had worked, like was talked about, but if we are going to have use a work a round will use a better system until maybe dnd 5 or 6
I think that you have said before that you dont like 4th edition. So the VTT would not have made it any more palatable to you. You already have other VTT's out there that you can play older versions of D&D on.
And see what ya get for moving to Oklahoma
I think that you have said before that you dont like 4th edition. So the VTT would not have made it any more palatable to you. You already have other VTT's out there that you can play older versions of D&D on.
And see what ya get for moving to Oklahoma
Yah I dont like it but would have put up with it for the VTT as what was proposed was better then any out there so them not getting it out was the nail in the coffin for me dumping my 3 core books and my other friends never buying it.
Yah I dont like it but would have put up with it for the VTT as what was proposed was better then any out there so them not getting it out was the nail in the coffin for me dumping my 3 core books and my other friends never buying it.
The table would not have adjudicated rules for you anyhow. So if they had not purchased any books you would still be screwed.
I was exaggerating a little, but only a little. The nearest game I can get into is around 30+ miles away. For someone like me on a limited budget that can get expensive. Not to mention time consuming also. I live in Jefferson, AR 72079. I've searched many different databases for local players and games, and the closest is 30+ miles.
The nearest store that sells D&D books is 40 miles away. The sole reason I bought the books was the promise that *soon* we would be able to log into WoTC and play online with people around the world without having to leave our homes.
I do play in a game at The Daily Planet in Bryant that's looking for additional players. I know its a bit of a drive though. That said, you can always start your own group, or use a different VTT like maptool (which is free).
edit: err. I didn't notice this thread, and the post I was responding to, were a bit stale. Ignore if irrelevant.
The table would not have adjudicated rules for you anyhow. So if they had not purchased any books you would still be screwed.
for the table they would had bought the books
One of the things they could advertise is that for the price of an MMO a month you can play a unique game with strangers across the world, but since there is no game table they can't do that.
(oh and I moved because of the economic recession. I had little choice)
What they will do is start development on the Game Table shortly after the Campaign Tools are released.
$8 a month for two magazines without ads and a database of ALL official content, not just a stripped down version of the core rules, is a fair price. Going out to lunch one day costs more than that.
Aye. I love some people that say they cannot afford the price. These are gamers we are talkijng about. People that pay 80 cents to a buck for a die and love spending money on high caloric fast food. If you stopped eating so much then the cash for the DDI might suddenly find itself in your pocket. ;)
They made it sound like they had a beta of the Game Table with just a few minor bugs they had to get out. This was before the 4th edition was released. Now they are saying they won't even release it.
The only reason we are being so vocal is that maybe if we get enough people riled up, they will take the game table off the "back burner" (or dead software pile if you work in the programming industry) and begin developing on it again.
While I'm not here to stifle people's thoughts, conversations, or opinions, I did want to jump in and say this isn't going to happen. We are currently dedicated to working on the Campaign Tools, and we're not even thinking about any other tools. Once the Campaign Tools are done and out the door, then we'll turn our eye towards the next project.
I personally would love to see the Game Table out some day - it was definitely a tool that had a lot to offer. But for now, we're not dedicating any resources to it, and at this point we don't know when we'll be able to take it off that back burner.
I personally would love to see the Game Table out some day - it was definitely a tool that had a lot to offer. But for now, we're not dedicating any resources to it, and at this point we don't know when we'll be able to take it off that back burner.
It should be noted that concern of some users are that the GT will be taken off the back burner and sent out with the trash. From all indications you do not know or can not say what the futre plans will be. Logic indicated GT would be last tool completed, because it had to interface sucessfully with all the other tools.
It of course would be nice for a statement of when back burner no longer applies (preferable that work has started on it again) when the situation is revisited.
So what are these "Campaign Tools" that you talk of and are they a part of the original apps that were advertised before this new edition came out?
I still think the Visualizer is the next logical program to bring out. It doesn't need a lot of resources to finish (most of the programing is already bought with the 3d engine) and the most difficult thing to do with it is to have it work with the other apps, something that can be run with back and forth between resource teams.
So what are these "Campaign Tools" that you talk of and are they a part of the original apps that were advertised before this new edition came out?
Good question, I think it might be argumentation Dungeon Builder, together with off line Game Table tracking. With prehaps other scapes of code to assist a DM in preparing and running a game. I might have missed any defined goal for this new tool, however ...
It of course would be nice for a statement of when back burner no longer applies (preferable that work has started on it again) when the situation is revisited.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - As soon as I have any information on any the tools or any DDI related stuff, I'll get it to you.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - As soon as I have any information on any the tools or any DDI related stuff, I'll get it to you.
Until then, assume any such content like the Gaming Table which isn't being worked on will never be published. This is what is known in the software industry as "on indefinite hold". Personally, I have yet to see any software put on indefinite hold to actually be published.
Until then, assume any such content like the Gaming Table which isn't being worked on will never be published. This is what is known in the software industry as "on indefinite hold". Personally, I have yet to see any software put on indefinite hold to actually be published.
Please.
There had been demo's with this unfinished product before, and I doubt Wizards will completely abandon it when it has so much work already done with it.
This is not some cheap, fly by night software company that buys finished games then throws them away for no good reason. Hasbro has put out some cheap games before (Frogger sequel, board games and such) but never has quit on a project, no matter how unlikely it is to make money.
It will be done eventually. I hope that by the time it is done, it and all the other projects will be cross platform (IE, mac and Linex) compatible and have a version for the console systems to use (PS3 and Live)
I hope that by the time it is done, it and all the other projects will be cross platform (IE, mac and Linex) compatible and have a version for the console systems to use (PS3 and Live)
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's exceptionally unlikely. It's not technically feasible (at least, not until Wizards hires guys to work on Mono :P)
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's exceptionally unlikely. It's not technically feasible (at least, not until Wizards hires guys to work on Mono :P)
There is always hope...
There had been demo's with this unfinished product before, and I doubt Wizards will completely abandon it when it has so much work already done with it.
One word: Gleemax. ;)
One word: Gleemax. ;)
I think that the big difference between Gleemax and DDI is that DDI is actually bringing $$$ into the coffers. Whether it is making enough to cover expenses we don't know (while it would be nice for it to do so, I don't think that it is yet), but WotC can point to the money coming in, the doubling of subscribers (according to the article a couple of months ago) and show definate potential and growth.
Gleemax OTOH, was pretty much a money-sink and really had no short- or medium-term potential for bringing $$$ in.
While I'm not here to stifle people's thoughts, conversations, or opinions, I did want to jump in and say this isn't going to happen. We are currently dedicated to working on the Campaign Tools, and we're not even thinking about any other tools. Once the Campaign Tools are done and out the door, then we'll turn our eye towards the next project.
I personally would love to see the Game Table out some day - it was definitely a tool that had a lot to offer. But for now, we're not dedicating any resources to it, and at this point we don't know when we'll be able to take it off that back burner.
Thanks for the definite word on that, so I wont hold out any false hope now
for the table I would have played 4E for sure for the campaign tools not a chance, maybe for 5th ed. But I do wish you guys all the success in the world.Please.
There had been demo's with this unfinished product before, and I doubt Wizards will completely abandon it when it has so much work already done with it.
This is not some cheap, fly by night software company that buys finished games then throws them away for no good reason. Hasbro has put out some cheap games before (Frogger sequel, board games and such) but never has quit on a project, no matter how unlikely it is to make money.
It will be done eventually. I hope that by the time it is done, it and all the other projects will be cross platform (IE, mac and Linex) compatible and have a version for the console systems to use (PS3 and Live)
There have been many non-cheap fly by night software companies who have had all but the finished product and still not released it. I could name over a dozen MMO's out there from such companies as EA, SOE and others that were developed to the point of alpha and then put on 'indefinite hold' while they worked on other projects. This 'indefinite hold' of one project I was working on is now going on 11 years.
Sometimes development reaches a point where the ROI isn't feasible to them and so they shelve the project. I think that this is the case for the virtual game table. My personal belief is that they finally did a cost analysis of what it would take to put up, run and maintain such a system and figured that the price they'd have to charge for it wouldn't get them enough subscriptions in order to make it a monetarily viable option.
Sometimes development reaches a point where the ROI isn't feasible to them and so they shelve the project. I think that this is the case for the virtual game table. My personal belief is that they finally did a cost analysis of what it would take to put up, run and maintain such a system and figured that the price they'd have to charge for it wouldn't get them enough subscriptions in order to make it a monetarily viable option.
That's a completely valid point. There's nothing wrong with realizing you're in over your head and scaling it back.
The problem here is (and, being someone new to this thread, I did some reading back at the beginning) that the GT was something that was originally advertised, as something that made DDi worth subscribing to. Countless individuals subscribed to the service to get that application, and I can understand the feeling when you've already purchased the car to find out that they decided not to finish the engine.
On the whole, I'm happy with 4e, and I don't care too much about the content that's being provided from DDi (which is why I don't subscribe). But what this and many other things shows is that WotC released 4E well before it was ready. Just because the product is modular in nature doesn't mean they should get a pass for that. Do your cost analysis before you start advertising the GT. If DDi's not ready, don't launch it with the books. And if it's worth enough to charge for it, you should hire enough people to make sure it gets done well (Dear Dragon Magazine: I'm talking editors/playtesters here).
There's a level of professionalism that should come with being the standard-bearer in a particular industry. You don't see Apple scrapping iTunes or Mattel forgetting to put a DVD in the SceneIt box. We shouldn't expect anything less from WotC.
One word: Gleemax. ;)
Gleemax wasn't abandoned. It was dropped, but it had already been running for (months? A year?) before the realization hit that it was taking the resources away from DDi. It was outclassed by the other web sites that have been around for much longer, and the color scheme ended up being an April fool's joke on this very forum.
It wasn't a good product, period. Not that DDi is the high point.
I think that Wizards is gonna eventually release the apps that have been advertised.
Gleemax wasn't abandoned. It was dropped, but it had already been running for (months? A year?) before the realization hit that it was taking the resources away from DDi. It was outclassed by the other web sites that have been around for much longer, and the color scheme ended up being an April fool's joke on this very forum.
It wasn't a good product, period. Not that DDi is the high point.
I think that Wizards is gonna eventually release the apps that have been advertised.
I doubt it. The WoTC staff member pretty much confirmed that there is no plans on picking up the Game Table.
I guess I'm going to have to round up a few developers to make something of this nature. Then we will have to raise the money to license the D&D4E rules from WoTC for use in the product. After that We'll have to make it plug in to the Character Generator and add VoIP support. Yeah should take about a year with a decent development team and proper planning. So it should be out before WoTC gets theirs out.
So any software developers out there interested in volunteering some time to create a third party game table with a server and lobby type of environment? and dice rollers?
I doubt it. The WoTC staff member pretty much confirmed that there is no plans on picking up the Game Table.
Huh??
I don't recall anyone from WotC ever saying that.
The only reason we are being so vocal is that maybe if we get enough people riled up, they will take the game table off the "back burner" (or dead software pile if you work in the programming industry) and begin developing on it again. If they did this then I would definitely subscribe and play D&D4E over any MMO any day
While I'm not here to stifle people's thoughts, conversations, or opinions, I did want to jump in and say this isn't going to happen. We are currently dedicated to working on the Campaign Tools, and we're not even thinking about any other tools. Once the Campaign Tools are done and out the door, then we'll turn our eye towards the next project.
I personally would love to see the Game Table out some day - it was definitely a tool that had a lot to offer. But for now, we're not dedicating any resources to it, and at this point we don't know when we'll be able to take it off that back burner.
Yeah, I agree, it'll probably be 2020 at the earliest.
Despite of course the five year cycle demonstrated by 3.5, and the interrupted five year cycle demonstrated by 3E.
And despite Hasbro being due to get the electronic rights back before the end of a five year cycle for 4E as it is, allowing them to significantly better incorporate an electronic product with the next edition of the game.
Despite of course the five year cycle demonstrated by 3.5, and the interrupted five year cycle demonstrated by 3E.
And despite Hasbro being due to get the electronic rights back before the end of a five year cycle for 4E as it is, allowing them to significantly better incorporate an electronic product with the next edition of the game.
Yes. Despite that.
I think that either a) the backlash will have taught them a lesson or (more likely) b) they won't have enough cash to do the stupid move by 2019, much less 2013.
Yes. Despite that.
I think that either a) the backlash will have taught them a lesson or (more likely) b) they won't have enough cash to do the stupid move by 2019, much less 2013.
You don't get how their decisions are made. They don't put out a new edition when they have a lot of money. They put out a new edition when sales and cash flow are down, in order to stimulate them. Based on the blogs we got from designers who were put to work on 3.5, and from designers who were put to work on 4e, the process is something akin to "this years' books sold more poorly than last years' books. Since it will take 2 years from the word 'go', to crank out a new edition, start now. We'll announce it in a year, publish in two."
So.... 2011-2012 is a good guess for the announcement.
You don't get how their decisions are made. They don't put out a new edition when they have a lot of money. They put out a new edition when sales and cash flow are down, in order to stimulate them. Based on the blogs we got from designers who were put to work on 3.5, and from designers who were put to work on 4e, the process is something akin to "this years' books sold more poorly than last years' books. Since it will take 2 years from the word 'go', to crank out a new edition, start now. We'll announce it in a year, publish in two."
So.... 2011-2012 is a good guess for the announcement.
Correct me (with data) if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the 2008 fiscal year was more profitable than the 2007 fiscal year.
That said, I think you're forgetting that they need to have the ad money and startup money for a new line (R&D, playtesting, launch money set aside, printing costs, etc) in a new budget, and that's what I was referring to. Regardless of a stupid decision made in the next couple years, I just don't see corporate OKing that large of an amount, again, in such a short span of time. I stand by my statement that I simply can't see 5e coming out before 2020, realistically, 2025, hopefully, or 2016, pessimistically.
more like 2020, or later.
I'm hedging bets that 5th edition (or at least 4.5E) will be announced at GenCon of 2010.
I'm hedging bets that 5th edition (or at least 4.5E) will be announced at GenCon of 2010.
I'll take you up on that bet. I bet it won't be announced at GenCon 2010 or 2011. How much you wanna bet? :D
Yes. Despite that.
I think that either a) the backlash will have taught them a lesson or (more likely) b) they won't have enough cash to do the stupid move by 2019, much less 2013.
a) You mean despite the backlash against 3E not teaching them a lesson with 3.5, the backlash with 4E will teach them a lesson not to improve the game to make 5E?
b) Ummm . . . huh?
If they have the cash, it proves that making changes does not cause a backlash, so why would they not do it?
If they do not have the cash it means the game has failed disastrously, so why would they not change it?
Correct me (with data) if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the 2008 fiscal year was more profitable than the 2007 fiscal year.
Correct an impression with data?
That is not really possible.
Nor, given the limited public statements they make about general profitability is it possible at all.
That said, I think you're forgetting that they need to have the ad money and startup money for a new line (R&D, playtesting, launch money set aside, printing costs, etc) in a new budget, and that's what I was referring to. Regardless of a stupid decision made in the next couple years, I just don't see corporate OKing that large of an amount, again, in such a short span of time. I stand by my statement that I simply can't see 5e coming out before 2020, realistically, 2025, hopefully, or 2016, pessimistically.
They approved it in 1998 (or so); they approved it in 2001; they approved it in 2004. Again, what in the past has created the impression they would have neither the money nor the will?
You are also overlooking how a considerable portion of those costs are amortized in general costs of producing expansion materials for the current edition. They are already paying an R&D staff, printing costs, and promotion of regular releases. The biggest cost would be playtesting, but that is far from prohibitive.
People did not believe 4E was coming last year, despite the statements about it originally being planned for 2005 before being morphed into 3.5 in 2003. They did not believe it despite the very obvious changes in the products being sold. They did not believe it despite the constant stream of subtle turns of phrase by WotC employees when asked about a new edition.
The key is not conflating a personal preference for a particular product with the general practices of a large corporation.
I'll take you up on that bet. I bet it won't be announced at GenCon 2010 or 2011. How much you wanna bet? :D
It's probably a little unfair of me to agree to this bet... but, you're betting no new edition announcement by GenCon 2011? Okay, how much are you willing to lose?
I'm hedging bets that 5th edition (or at least 4.5E) will be announced at GenCon of 2010.
Yeah if this wasnt just "flamebait" posting on your part, I would be in on that bet. I dont mind taking peoples money.
I'm hedging bets that 5th edition (or at least 4.5E) will be announced at GenCon of 2010.
While I would never underestimate the ability of a large corporation to fail to learn from a blatant object lesson, I would not expect WotC to try a 4.5E.
And perhaps not 5E, but "something else" reflecting the reversion of the digital rights.
While I would never underestimate the ability of a large corporation to fail to learn from a blatant object lesson, I would not expect WotC to try a 4.5E.
And perhaps not 5E, but "something else" reflecting the reversion of the digital rights.
I think I need to talk to Hasbro again this week before I say something that gets me in trouble. :P
I think the highly modular ruleset they went with does a good job of avoiding a 4.5 as well.
Does that mean it ABSOLUTELY won't happen? No, WotC for better or worse, is flexible. But 4.0 would have to be proven to be VERY broken before they'd take that step.
They also said that they hope 4E will have a 10-year lifespan, as they see 10 years is sort of the natural progression for versions (if you count 3.x as a whole, instead of subdividing it into the two versions they meet that timeline well -whether that's a fair measuring stick or not is a matter that's subject to MUCH debate. I can see it as both fair AND unfair).
So, IDEALLY WotC would like 4E to last until 2017 - which would mean announcing a new version MAYBE at GenCon 2015 (to get the press machine rolling).
Again - that's all ideal situations, and so far it sounds like 4E is doing well enough to hit those projections.
It's probably a little unfair of me to agree to this bet... but, you're betting no new edition announcement by GenCon 2011? Okay, how much are you willing to lose?
hahahaha, well, even given your insider information, I think things can change (and am hopeful they will, if there's already plans). I'll put my optimism up for...let's say 50 bucks? I'll PayPal it if I lose, you have my word.
WotC learned from the backlash of the 3.0 to 3.5 leap that a 4.5 would be a VERY bad idea. They have stated that they have no intention of doing a 4.5.
They've stated a LOT of things, such as getting the VTT table out by December 2008 ... etc... what they state and what they'll do are often completely different things. In point of order, we know unequivocally that WotC is quite ready to lie to customers to keep the aboard, after all.
But 4.0 would have to be proven to be VERY broken before they'd take that step.
The new edition will not come because 4E is 'broken'. New editions have never come out for that reason. They come out because it's time for the company to sell new core books, which are the only big sellers, period. 4E could be a golden gem of gaming goodness as it is, but they'll ditch it the MOMENT they realize they've hit market saturation and need to get that sales spike again. And, guess what, they're already getting near that point, by their own admission.
New editions are a stunt for sales. They always have been, the Orange Books, 2nd edition, the Black Books, 3rd Edition, 3.5 Edition, 4th Edition, and the upcoming one are all sales stunts. It's never been about getting a better game - except as a side-effect, if we're lucky.
The new edition will not come because 4E is 'broken'. New editions have never come out for that reason. They come out because it's time for the company to sell new core books, which are the only big sellers, period. 4E could be a golden gem of gaming goodness as it is, but they'll ditch it the MOMENT they realize they've hit market saturation and need to get that sales spike again. And, guess what, they're already getting near that point, by their own admission.
I can show written proof of the statement that they decided to begin work on 4E when they realized they were "designing around the problems in 3.5" (From one of the two Pre-4E books, I'd have to find my copies to list the exact book and page number). Can you backup your claim?
You claim their own admission shows that sales are flagging - where I've seen the exact opposite - including the last couple major book releases appearing in in the top 100 of assorted National Bestseller books. That's quite an accomplishment for rules supplements to a niche market game that's (allegedly) already hit market saturation.
I'd love to see your source for this version of "their own admission".
I can show written proof of the statement that they decided to begin work on 4E when they realized they were "designing around the problems in 3.5" (From one of the two Pre-4E books, I'd have to find my copies to list the exact book and page number).
OF COURSE they're going to say that in the marketing books. You honestly expect them to come out and say "We need more books to get a cash influx" as their chief reason? Here's a clue, cochise, both 3.5 and 4 came out because Hasbro threatened WotC with closure if they didn't make progress to profitably. Something which, by the way, they've failed to do, even with 4E.
The sales of the core rules of the game have flagged, meaning that the market is already hitting its saturation and well below the numbers for the 3.0 run during it's duration. This is from WotC's own posts in these forums on the subject. Yes, the statements aren't as blatant, but one that was was that they celebrated retaining 60 percent of their consumer base...
And, the top 100 books? They're not the top 100 of all books, just selected categories you'll notice. Watch that spin, there, bud, you're getting dizzy from it.
Ok, off the soap box.
5th edition is a long way away, and 4.5 isn't gonna happen if the Adventurers Vault is any indication. It had some fixed with the Transfer enchantment Ritual and other small things that made some of the strict Parcel System structure to be a bit easier to work with for the characters, though they still will end up poor.
Lets review history a bit, and look at what has happened to TSR. It had the 1st edition "Basic Edition" where the class and race was basically the same thing, and the default elf was hot. Then came the more "Advanced" rules that is more like the game we know now, with classes and races separated out, and higher level play. Second edition introduced a basic upgrade, and wasn't much of a change. It introduced "Alternative" rules for Non Weapon Proficiencies, had a new way to calculate hitting the enemy (THAC0) and cleaned up some of the more abused rules that ruined the game for many. (The exclusion of the Assassin being one of those)
TSR, though, began to do the same thing as other RPG makers, flooding the market with a whole slew of books with no real focus, and began to hemorrhage money like the current Obama economy. Wizards, having made a slew of cash with Magic the Gathering, bought the rights for D&D, and revamped the brand with 3rd edition. It was a wholesale change, adding feats as powers that any could get, multi classing that was free form (A mistake) and skills that fleshed out the character (Basically the Non Weapon Proficiencies along with the Rogue skills) It also simplified some of the rules, threw out the complicated AC scale (10 to -10) along with the THAC0 mechanic and turned some of the old arcane classes into Specialized Schools for the Wizard.
Now we have 4th edition. Multiclassing is more balanced (and level dependent, damn it) PrC's turned into PP's and ED's, and the classes work on the same structure instead of having separate mechanics for each class or set of classes (Read, Wizard and Psionics).
Now, the time period for all this started in the 1970's.
5th edition is a long way away.
According to the Fear the Boot interview with Ryan Dancey, WotC originally went to TSR as they wanted to distribute TSR products. However, when they got there, TSR made the offer to sell the company to WotC.
That is actually pretty cool. Might be the reason the original Open Gaming License came to be.
Buy the rights or simply buy the company, doesn't matter to me. Wizards got the rights to use that brand either way.
Not sure if I can publically say the amount, but the 'purchase price' of all of WotC is currently making the rounds as Hasbro is shopping around for buyers. I'll just say that the "D&D" brand name is actually not all that valuable anymore, though some related brands are a little more prized.
It's more than the 'gaming community' is going to spend, to be sure, even if they all pitched in. Honestly, even at the price they're asking, I really don't think there are any buyers willing to put the money in... it's more cost effective to hit the internet with a new game, particularly an MMO or even a facebook app these days.
This an interesting sidebar.
Hasbro clearly can have a wish price on how much WotC should be sold for, a wish however is much like belief.
Oh I am indeed sure the gaming community could purchase WotC as an entire group. If they all could agree to work together, even if WotC did not make a profit last reporting period they had gaming sales that before precosts would likely be enough to purchase the Unit (Oh this does depend on percentage of gross sales is actually profit after taxes and of course expected rate of return on investment).
Of course the gaming community would likely inclide MtCG, D&D, SAGA Star Wars, perhaps even some remaining Pokiman (Or whatever that was) fans. The group clearly can come up with the money, though at a few costs. Instead of buying cards, the PHB or whatever for a year or to, spending their money to get WotC to provide what they want first.
Hasbro of course could put WotC stock back on the market, just those conditions do not appear to be good for target price desired. One listen Hasbro needs to learn is if no one will not buy it now, it has no value short term. They can wait for market to get better, however to do so they will need to keep the Brand name alive, even if there is the need for a few cost leaders. A long term view clearly did not work well for TSR, or policy of giving the gamers what they want. The basic reason there "Was troubles with the printers" was TSR did not have the cash flow to pay them timely, if at all.
As to an ask price, I will add I just saw a brand name be offered for license for about 500,000.00 USD per year, setting the believed IP was worth about 12,500,000.00 (plus or minus depending on expected rate of return and costs of protecting the IP), however some are not buying it. The value has dropped greatly or the license fee will go up very high to maintain value.
OF COURSE they're going to say that in the marketing books. You honestly expect them to come out and say "We need more books to get a cash influx" as their chief reason? Here's a clue, cochise, both 3.5 and 4 came out because Hasbro threatened WotC with closure if they didn't make progress to profitably. Something which, by the way, they've failed to do, even with 4E.
The sales of the core rules of the game have flagged, meaning that the market is already hitting its saturation and well below the numbers for the 3.0 run during it's duration. This is from WotC's own posts in these forums on the subject. Yes, the statements aren't as blatant, but one that was was that they celebrated retaining 60 percent of their consumer base...
And, the top 100 books? They're not the top 100 of all books, just selected categories you'll notice. Watch that spin, there, bud, you're getting dizzy from it.
It's sure easy to hand-wave away comments that offer proof while offering none to back up your own statements.
My turn.
You can say whatever you want if you don't provide facts to back it all up. so OF COURSE you're going to claim that it's all going into the toilet.
See how much fun hyperbole and baseless claims are?
I'll be more than happy to discuss any claims you can actually back up - but unverifiable claims of insider information help nobody. If I claimed to have insider information that says you're wrong, but I can't prove it - are we on equal footing, or will that be summarily dismissed (and rightly so).
You say WotC has posted here in the forums that the market is saturated and sales are below expectations. I say prove it. I've been wrong before, I may well be wrong now - all I ask is that you show me I'm wrong.
I offer evidence of my claims - you can hand-wave it away if you like, but you're offering nothing substantial in return. Which makes me wonder which of us is spinning?
Note - the Monster Manual 2 debuted at #14 on the Wall Street Journal bestseller list. The "Selected Category" was nonfiction - if that's some micro-category that falls into a spin zone, then we'll never agree on anything. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gYoqYscpr1f-m5wkHuXllIXO0VeQD98FD9400
I'll also submit that organized play numbers - both for unique members AND for overall play numbers are UP - not down. While that may not DIRECTLY correlate to book sales, I submit that it's shows circumstantially that people are playing a lot more 4E - and with that book sales are a natural follow-up.
I am counting unique active players, not occurrences of play. We have more active players now than we have ever had in the RPGA's history.
Admittedly, this is not direct evidence of increased book sales, but I maintain it's a strong circumstantial link.
According to the Fear the Boot interview with Ryan Dancey, WotC originally went to TSR as they wanted to distribute TSR products. However, when they got there, TSR made the offer to sell the company to WotC.
It would have to be a vid, no sound here makes it a bit hard for me to listen to.
Loading Ryan's blog now, or not poker has only some things to do with gaming.
What I have read, some in Usenet, some in other places, TSR was insolvent, unable to pay bills. Oh indeed they had IP worth something, however a contract with Ed Greenwood does not pay the utility bill.
It's sure easy to hand-wave away comments that offer proof while offering none to back up your own statements.
My turn.
You can say whatever you want if you don't provide facts to back it all up. so OF COURSE you're going to claim that it's all going into the toilet.
See how much fun hyperbole and baseless claims are?
I'll be more than happy to discuss any claims you can actually back up - but unverifiable claims of insider information help nobody. If I claimed to have insider information that says you're wrong, but I can't prove it - are we on equal footing, or will that be summarily dismissed (and rightly so).
I offer evidence - you cna hand-wave it away if you like, but you're offering nothing substantial in return.
Hmm, Sean K. Reynolds (SKR) has spoken a little bit about Hasbro and their guidance of WotC. If you require it from me, I will search out links. I will note that his first forum is trashed, corrupted somehow and so far has not been repaired, he could have modified his website deleting older files and even his blog might not still retain post about forum crash (or comments about Hasbro) as he worked 3.0, was terminated before 3.5 was released (though he did indicate he provided some feed back concerning changes to Bard and likely other classes - I suspect it was friend to friend as opposed to outside consultant).
A few things he related or implied, with parody, was that WotC was ordered to reduce force even though the WotC made profit because Hasbro required all Units to share equally in loses and cost recovery, that Hasbro resisted the idea of selling Forgotten Realms books, because unit sales would not reach a certain number (despite the fact the the FR logo increased retail price by 1.00 at no further cost then a little ink that might have been used for something else as well).
I do not know how much Hasbro was involved in deciding when to release a new edition, I do not know that all SKR has posted is true and accurate, it however was an impression that he had about Hasbro interfering with WotC goal to success.
Has anyone ever thought there might be a natural progression to these things? Some guy playing around with something who says "This would be cool to implement." Then figuring out that there's just no way to make it work in the present version. So it gets shelved and talked about over lunch. Then another guy comes up with a different idea. Shelved for the same reason. Then, when there's enough of these guys, they start meeting after work, just a few at first. Then more. Eventually they present it to management and sometimes the managers say 'Yes' and sometimes they say 'No', or at least 'Not yet'. But it continues to get worked on and talked about until eventually there's enough reason to make the new version.
There's an Indian guy I work with who's totally convinced that 9/11 was set up by the US government. Won't see it any other way. He's seen how corrupt the politicians are back in his home province and believes all politicians are like that. My simple argument back is that, considering how incompetent the government is at so many of the things it does, is it really feasible that they managed to pull off something like that and keep it completely quiet? Hundreds of people would have had to have been involved. They all kept quiet, agreeing to kill 3000 civilians and no-one's had a change of heart? He's a cool guy otherwise, but I really feel like I'm banging my head against the wall with that.
Now given that, (I haven't changed the subject, I promise) do you really think Hasbro has this master plan where they're just waiting for the right time to spring 5th ed on people? So many people always see conspiracy theories and cold-hearted masterminds behind all these things, when those of us who've worked for large corporations for some time realize that a lot of this stuff happens just by either the corporation bumbling along or by a small group inside the corp that gets stuff done.
The amount of material being churned out is enough to keep the people at WotC busy, I imagine, especially after the December layoffs. Are the people who think 5.0 is right around the corner thinking that there's some secret Skunkworks that Hasbro/WotC has set up who are busy thinking up new rules for 5e? Because there'd have to be some new stuff for people to switch. Unless you think they think we're all idiots who buy new editions just because it has a higher number on it? And if you think that, why didn't they do that for 4e? Easier than coming up with a new system.
I believe they've got their hands busy with new stuff for 4e. When they start running out of new stuff to add, (sometime after PHB5, I'd think), then I guess they'll start working on the next great thing. I'm not looking for a new version before 2015 or so. Evolution takes time.
Hmm, Sean K. Reynolds (SKR) has spoken a little bit about Hasbro and their guidance of WotC. If you require it from me, I will search out links. I will note that his first forum is trashed, corrupted somehow and so far has not been repaired, he could have modified his website deleting older files and even his blog might not still retain post about forum crash (or comments about Hasbro) as he worked 3.0, was terminated before 3.5 was released (though he did indicate he provided some feed back concerning changes to Bard and likely other classes - I suspect it was friend to friend as opposed to outside consultant).
A few things he related or implied, with parody, was that WotC was ordered to reduce force even though the WotC made profit because Hasbro required all Units to share equally in loses and cost recovery, that Hasbro resisted the idea of selling Forgotten Realms books, because unit sales would not reach a certain number (despite the fact the the FR logo increased retail price by 1.00 at no further cost then a little ink that might have been used for something else as well).
I do not know how much Hasbro was involved in deciding when to release a new edition, I do not know that all SKR has posted is true and accurate, it however was an impression that he had about Hasbro interfering with WotC goal to success.
If you HAVE links - I actually wouldn't mind reading some of that, though it doesn't demonstrate the current claims of market saturation and poor sales that I'm particualarly calling shenanigans on.
I should also clarify that I'm not completely blind to the fact that there has to be SOME financial motivation when new versions come out. However, I think the motivation is a BLENDED motivation.
As almuric mentions - evolution takes time. There are still lots of good ideas being explored in 4E - and the system is still evolving as the MM2 demonstrates quite well.
There *will* come a time, I've little doubt, that the 4E idea well will start to run dry - that problems with the gameplay (be it from power creep, or simple "boy, if only we'd done it this way from the start" moments) will become as much a detriment to the game as anything else. There will also come a time when market saturation DOES happen - even if each Monster Manual, for example, is an improvement on the last - there comes a point where there are simply more monsters than you can ever even BEGIN to use.
When that happens - WotC/Hasbro will undoubtedly look to see if its economically viable to create a new edition. If sales between now and then have flagged to the (unlikely) point that "nobody" will buy 5E - it won't be worth the development costs to produce - no matter how many great ideas the R&D team have on sticky notes in assorted binders.
Likewise, however, if sales go completely stagnant, and there are NO new mechanics to be had, no new ideas on how to improve gameplay - no edition can be born there either.
There will, I'm sure, be a time for 5E, it's fairly short-sighted to think otherwise. But to claim that what are currently seen as very STRONG sales, STRONG play numbers, and other positive inticators (DDI subscriptions climbing steadily - including a doubling of the subscriber base from launch to February of this year) and saying that there will be a new edition "just because" is equally foolhardy.
One does not snap their fingers and produce a new version out of thin air. There are development costs that go hand in hand with a new version.
If I believed (and I don't) sales were flagging so poorly that Hasbro wanted to ditch 4E I'd be FAR more likely to accept that Hasbro is just going to shut down the entire D&D line for the time being at this point.
If you HAVE links - I actually wouldn't mind reading some of that, though it doesn't demonstrate the current claims of market saturation and poor sales that I'm particualarly calling shenanigans on.
So far one http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html and true it does not mean is current policy.
Searching for a non existent forum gets a little hard, though I might find a copy in google.
So far one http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html and true it does not mean is current policy.
Searching for a non existent forum gets a little hard, though I might find a copy in google.
thank ya.
Believing the "roleplaying community at large" could gather the cash is one thing.
Believing Hasbro, notorious for not letting the least bit of IP escape its grasp, is quite another.
Well, seeing as how you believe it is possible Hasbro would give up the D&D IP, I suppose it is not that great a leap to believing this. Indeed, I am not even sure where to begin choking over the sheer . . . *something* . . . of this - I cannot even think of a word to describe it.
While I think many of the decisions made with 4E are utterly incorrect (to say the least), to truly believe that the great mass of any RPG system's fandom could collectively elevate the game system to a transcendent state of perfection is beyond anything I could even vaguely convince myself to believe.
Despite the few quality few quality designers out there, their efforts would be completely drowned out by the large quantities of material released by those who despite being decent, even exceptionable, adventure and setting book authors are completely incompetent to the task of actual rules design and development, and both would be utterly swamped by the tidal wave of absolute garbage that the "roleplaying community at large" would convert to pdfs or vanity publish, turning the D&D name into a trademark for nothing more than worthless and near-worthless fanfic.
I don't think that the entire group of RPG fans could elevate it to some perfect system. I do on the other hand believe that a select few could be voted in by said community that would be able to do it. Having a separate "council" if you will that decides on rule changes.
Then just like now the license would not allow the core mechanics of the D&D game to be changed or altered. Independent publishers could work within the system or tack rules on for their particular game products. This would work very well. If a supplement was seen to be too unbalanced. Players and DMs wouldn't buy it.
Hi,
I have enjoyed the D&D4 product roll-out, checking out the new system, metaphorically kicking the tires, playing with the new digital enhancements.
On the whole, I have found the package severely wanting. The quality and treatment of D&Di deserves special notice here, being the decisive consideration in my choice to look away from D&D for my next round of gaming.
Maybe WotC will have its act together for D&D5.
D&Di subscriptions begin tomorrow, which makes this the right time to bow out for a few years.
Bye!
Anyway,
Ken
The real question is: Why even contemplate coming back for D&D5 ?
The real question is: Why even contemplate coming back for D&D5 ?
Because WOTC will SWEAR the the 5th edtion DnD computer tools will be ready on time and they will be great and not delayed like etools/ master tools or the 4th edtion tools.
Not like they have made promises like that before.
Because WOTC will SWEAR the the 5th edtion DnD computer tools will be ready on time and they will be great and not delayed like etools/ master tools or the 4th edtion tools.
Not like they have made promises like that before.
Well hopefully they will finish the tools before they even release 5E. I mean if they create the tools first while they are designing the game, then since it should take 10+ years from the release of 4E, then 5E and the tools should be ready at about the same time. Of course that is with a competent programmers/software designer on the team, if they don't have that they are just screwed.
1. WOTC hires a young company to develop the 4th ed tools. They work on them and have basic demos/ mock ups ready for showing at cons, ect..
2. WOTC heavily promotes the tools, say they will be ready at 4th ed launch.
3. The company WOTC hired goes under, taking whatever code was done with them.
4. WOTC now has to start from square one. They don't want to hire another company and left with nothing again.
5. So they work on it themselves, getting out the character maker.
But one of the issues I see is the majority of people working on the DDi tools don't have much software programing experence. Plus IMO WOTC/ Hasbro does not want to hire the right people, so stuff gets delayed or dropped.
From what I understand, this is what happened witht he 4ed tools. This is just speculation from what I read online.
1. WOTC hires a young company to develop the 4th ed tools. They work on them and have basic demos/ mock ups ready for showing at cons, ect..
2. WOTC heavily promotes the tools, say they will be ready at 4th ed launch.
3. The company WOTC hired goes under, taking whatever code was done with them.
4. WOTC now has to start from square one. They don't want to hire another company and left with nothing again.
5. So they work on it themselves, getting out the character maker.
But one of the issues I see is the majority of people working on the DDi tools don't have much software programing experence. Plus IMO WOTC/ Hasbro does not want to hire the right people, so stuff gets delayed or dropped.
Any and all code is either leased by or owned by Wizards, not the company that was hired to produce the product. If this isn't the case, then it was a poorly executed contract.
Any and all code is either leased by or owned by Wizards, not the company that was hired to produce the product. If this isn't the case, then it was a poorly executed contract.
While that is probably the case, there are some weird scenarios where if WotC pulled funding, the ownership of the code reverts to the development company. Of course this would be a rare case.
While that is probably the case, there are some weird scenarios where if WotC pulled funding, the ownership of the code reverts to the development company. Of course this would be a rare case.
Or it was poorly written/commented code and wasn't worth the effort recover or build upon.
The company I work for has a story (before I got there) of a guy they contracted to write code, then he either quit or got fired. They brought someone else on to recover and fix his code. About 1500 (+/- 500) lines of code without one comment or descriptive variable name. Ended up scrapping it and starting over.
Not saying or confirming this is what happened with D&Di, as there is no hard proof (that I know of) one way or the other. But it does make sense, since they were showing off the tools to bloggers/news sites in the beginning of April, then by the end suddenly saying nothing would be ready in time.
Edit: Given the state in which Gleemax was in when it "launched", I would venture that the D&Di code might have been pretty bad.
Since I try to post some (hopefully) useful information:
The name of the software company was Radiant Machine Entertainment
You must have missed the memo about D&D becoming a collectible rulebook game. You'll buy your books in closed boxes, and hope you get the one you want.
After you've had a couple years to collect all the rulebooks and use them for a given set, those books are retired and reprinted in new sets.
Oh, wait, that's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BUSINESS MODEL. How silly of me to confuse the two.
It should be a completely different business model.
It is not being treated as such by Hasbro or WotC, and has not been for some time.
That is what the whole concept of "releasing a new edition when sales on the current edition start to sag" is all about. You sell the product until its sales peak, then you bring it out in a "new and improved" manner. Other signs are visible as well. Look at how monsters are presented in the monster manual, with multiple variants distinguished by (functionally) unique tags. That is just like Magic cards, or even certain miniatures games, where updated sculpts get new names and new powers, making players need to purchase them to stay up on the power curve.
The problem with that of course, which shows that the people promoting it are as silly as you, is that RPGs do not sell long term on the same model as CCGs or miniature games.
Just because the rules are not in collectible packs (although they are, look at the miniatures), does not change the modular nature you referred to. Perhaps you should make a greater effort to investigate just what that business model entails.
I did not say anything about 3.x being broken. I saying that for 4E to force and edition change now/next year would have to come from THIS version being very broken.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth, however.
I put nothing there. You brought up the concept of 3.5 being "broken", and you brought up referring to the preview books where that assertion is first put forward by WotC.
GenCon 2007 after the 4E announcement during the Q&A if I'm not mistaken.
So wait, you have no link to it? You seem to request those from others regularly.
Well, since we're not talking about 3.x I'm not sure how that's relevant.
No, but we are talking about WotC's business model, making it directly relevant.
I put nothing there. You brought up the concept of 3.5 being "broken", and you brought up referring to the preview books where that assertion is first put forward by WotC.
Let's see:
Does that mean it ABSOLUTELY won't happen? No, WotC for better or worse, is flexible. But 4.0 would have to be proven to be VERY broken before they'd take that step.
Where does that say 3.x was broken, exactly? Better still - where have I ever made that claim?
No, you don't put ANY words in my mouth.
So wait, you have no link to it? You seem to request those from others regularly.
Alas, I don't - but then again, this was said in a room full of a few thousand people. It isn't some "insider knowledge" that comes from a source only I know about and won't divulge.
Did they film the 4E announcement? Maybe it's on Youtube, I'll look around.
No, but we are talking about WotC's business model, making it directly relevant.
Only if we assume nothing ever changes at WotC and that the company is the same as it was in the last decade. You're talking about how they approached the last version. I'm talking about THIS version.
As soon as someone offers up these quotes that are allegedly floating about this very forum referring to poor sales and market saturation, I'll read them and take them for fact.
Until then I'll go by what I *AM* hearing out of WotC - that sales are up, play is up, and things are sailing along well.
Where does that say 3.x was broken, exactly? Better still - where have I ever made that claim?
No, you don't put ANY words in my mouth.
Again, I do not have to.
Read what I wrote in context.
It is a canard that a system needs to be broken before a new edition is released for it.
At least that must be true if we are to accept your suggestion that nobody at WotC thought 3.x was broken but they came out with 4E anyway.
Did they film the 4E announcement? Maybe it's on Youtube, I'll look around.
When you find it then.
Only if we assume nothing ever changes at WotC and that the company is the same as it was in the last decade. You're talking about how they approached the last version. I'm talking about THIS version.
As soon as someone offers up these quotes that are allegedly floating about this very forum referring to poor sales and market saturation, I'll read them and take them for fact.
Until then I'll go by what I *AM* hearing out of WotC - that sales are up, play is up, and things are sailing along well.
So your hearsay is better than everyone else's, and better than everyone else's observations and commentary on WotC's past performance?
If you want to exclude hearsay and opinion you are going to have to put up significantly more than just your own as "proof" otherwise.
Thanks.
Until then I'll go by what I *AM* hearing out of WotC - that sales are up, play is up, and things are sailing along well.
So your hearsay is better than everyone else's, and better than everyone else's observations and commentary on WotC's past performance?
If you want to exclude hearsay and opinion you are going to have to put up significantly more than just your own as "proof" otherwise.
Didn't have to look far, this was posted today in reference to the PHB2 sales and availability.
We certainly were caught off guard by the sales. We are on a third printing (arrived last week). We sold through 4 months of planned inventory the first day of release. :embarrass
Also some distributors were also caught off guard (like Esdevium UK) so since you are in the UK this is certainly the issue as Charles pointed out:
Emphasis mine.