Setting this feedback thread in advance for the next Digital Insider, due to go live tomorrow.
Many thanks!
And good show with the stuff at the end. Monk? Monk in -May-? Monk in LFR by the end of May? Oh, the sweetness.
-Sutro
That is EXACTLY what the weekly insider should look like.
Of course, now its all over... The Irony.
I don't think I can wait for all that good stuff... anyone know any relatively harmless ways I can knock myself out for about 3 months?
2. More Kudos to Bill for taking our curmudgeonry and using it for some self deprecation about it.
DI updates are dead, and I'm fine with that. I look forward to providing feedback as a D&DI member to have a (small)voice in direction the progression.
"When this column began, information was streaming at an amazing rate. It was a time of constant change and constant growth, and we had a lot to let you know about. That’s no longer the case, and as many of you have recognized, I don’t have a ton of new information to pass along on a weekly basis. So, this will be the last regularly scheduled installment of Digital Insider. "
Does this mean no progress is being made?
"We will stay in touch, just not on a weekly basis. When we have something new or exciting to say, you’ll see it as a news item, or on the message boards, or in an editorial or column. In most cases, we’ll use a combination of these methods to best get the word out."
OK how about those promised PDFs, auto renew or Paypal to mention a few outstanding issues? Seeing news items require dealing with the web site (which has been an issue from at least launch of 4th if not before with occasional fixes and occasional failures), reading the editorials require being a member and getting the word out in general has been a failure to communicate the bad with the good.
Ending this column which for the most part had nothing of use to say makes sense, however also indicates WotC really does not want to tell the people what is going on. Oh seeing the Hasbro profit reports it of course could mean that bandwidth usage has been restricted and or another round of force adjustment is coming.
The few of the community asked for more information and the answer is less.
End feedback before I say other things.
When i heard about 4th ed i was lead or wrongfully believed that it come with a online version of the book you bought. and that online tool would quickly follow.
I'm struggling with how to give Wizards my money. I want to give Wizards my money. I've enjoyed LFR quite a bit, and feel guilty that I'm getting so much enjoyment with very little monetary output. I'm signed up for Insider, and I've bought the core books, but I'm not really interested in other materials. Here's why:
* I don't want a whole shelf of books I won't use very often. I have a huge pile of 2E books from before my recently-ended 10-year hiatus from D&D. I don't want to shlep around a ton of books either.
* I don't want a huge briefcase full of tiles either. I'd be happy to pay $5 for a high-rez map I can have printed at kinkos. Were I to own my own game shop, I'd be interested in buying laminated version of maps for LFR and Scales modules.
* I don't want to buy a box of randomized minis. I hear you're solving this issue, so I won't dwell on it too much. But I need 10 kobolds for my next module--how many booster packs would I have to buy to get them?
* I don't want to manage a bunch of update files and books with notes written in them. Electronic resources have infinitesimal costs to update, they should be.
* I don't want to manage a bunch of LFR adventure logs. I'd be happy to look at banner ads or Google ads to have a real RPGA Web site that lets me show my characters' history off to my friends. I'd even be interested in a standard Web 2.0 model: 1 character is free but up to 10 characters costs $5/month and was tied to my RPGA number.
* I like plotlines. Story is why I play D&D. I'd be much more interested in buying a pack of minis if they were the exact ones I needed for a certain LFR module. I'd pay the price of an MTG booster for RPGA legal power/item/creation cards that were only usable during a 6-month window that represented a plotline.
I know that RPGA/LFR and D&D 4E aren't exactly the same entities, but since LFR is 99% of my gateway to D&D, it's where I see most of the opportunity. The character builder is a great first step. There is so much opportunity in this space, however.
He finally got it right at the end!
That is EXACTLY what the weekly insider should look like.
Of course, now its all over... The Irony.
*blink* What is right about it?
Other then polls that they appear to ignore in the past there is nothing about DI.
The only thing close to DI is information/advertisement of what will (might?) appear in up coming ezines. The ezines a completed component of the DDI intuitive (barring some complaints about lack of content and complied PDFs).
I am not sure what you expected that you considered this article right compared to the last few, however you clearly are entitled to your opinion.
Where is news about the other aplications? Perhaps a screen shot showing lighting working better. A report that integration of Visulizier with the CB has been getting closer to completion. Anything that indicates progress would be nice and for me planned articles to be released is not progress to be reported. Articles are expected.
I just not understand how you believe this is what "weekly insider should look like", when it is nothing I expected it should look like.
Where are the polls and surveys he refers to?
The forum has popup polls, if you block popups like I do you will never see them.
Also the website from time to time has polls that you can vote on, I believe the main D&D page is the only place they occur.
I think Wizards has "jumped the shark" on the Core Books. The classes and races we had been accustomed to in the 3rd Edition core books should have been in the PHB1. Put all the wacky races (Dragonborn, Tieflings etc.,) in the PHB2 etc., and the new classes that weren't in the 3e core books. I think this was a poor decision on Wizards part to keep stringing us along with races and classes that were core in 3E (Gnomes, Half-Orcs, Monks, Sorcerors, Bards, Barbarians...) and seeding them in other 4e books.
Now, I must count the days to May.....
You asked for feedback, here it is.
* I don't want a whole shelf of books I won't use very often. I have a huge pile of 2E books from before my recently-ended 10-year hiatus from D&D. I don't want to shlep around a ton of books either.
* I don't want a huge briefcase full of tiles either. I'd be happy to pay $5 for a high-rez map I can have printed at kinkos. Were I to own my own game shop, I'd be interested in buying laminated version of maps for LFR and Scales modules.
* I don't want to buy a box of randomized minis. I hear you're solving this issue, so I won't dwell on it too much. But I need 10 kobolds for my next module--how many booster packs would I have to buy to get them?
* I don't want to manage a bunch of update files and books with notes written in them. Electronic resources have infinitesimal costs to update, they should be.
* I don't want to manage a bunch of LFR adventure logs. I'd be happy to look at banner ads or Google ads to have a real RPGA Web site that lets me show my characters' history off to my friends. I'd even be interested in a standard Web 2.0 model: 1 character is free but up to 10 characters costs $5/month and was tied to my RPGA number.
* I like plotlines. Story is why I play D&D. I'd be much more interested in buying a pack of minis if they were the exact ones I needed for a certain LFR module. I'd pay the price of an MTG booster for RPGA legal power/item/creation cards that were only usable during a 6-month window that represented a plotline.
I agree so much with these bullets! I'm bying non-D&D miniatures, because I hate the idea of buing random miniatures. I don't want 20 books in my shelf, which I'm only going to use whenever I create a new character, and which will gradually be less complete and overview-like as more books are added (hurrah for the compendium and the builder).
Please press on with the other digital components we were promised: the visualizer and the gametable. I would pay much more for those than for more books.
Lets see. NO info on the next tool to be worked on. NO info on the auto renew issue. Just more bones about new classes coming out in PH3. Another ad. How about some info on where you are going?
Bill does not get what these articles should be about at all. I'm glad its over because if they are not going to give any real info, it should not be written.
Looks like WOTC is going back to keeping the customer base totally in the dark. Between lack of info on the prgress of the tools to be worked on and the lack of product description on the product page, looks like WOTC wants to kill DnD.
I personally won't pay without having this promised programs, since I understand that my money is not supporting you to create them.
But maybe this is the real problem, you are scared that people cancel their suscription if you announce that you are not working in any of the programs anymore.
Why don't you say clearly if you're working or not in the rest of the DDI software? I am sure that if you were working on it, you could probably write weekly news about it, at least only to say, "the virtual gametable is going fine we are are now working on ..." or something like that.
I personally won't pay without having this promised programs, since I understand that my money is not supporting you to create them.
But maybe this is the real problem, you are scared that people cancel their suscription if you announce that you are not working in any of the programs anymore.
All I want is a yes or no answer on if they are still working on the other apps for DDI. Lack of info when they first launched 4th ed on DDI is what got them in this situation in the first place. You would think they would learn from that.
Thay are not getting my money until I know for sure that:
1. The auto renew issue is resolved.
2. They tell the customer base if they are going ahead with the other DDI apps.
It's a shame that they're losing an opportunity to make an impact with the online community but with as much complaining as they got for it on a weekly basis (guilty as charged), I understand not wanting to waste the time to write it.
Bravo! There's no need to waste time and energy on a useless weekly column.
Oh well.
So many unanswered questions about paypal, renewal, number of articles, tools being worked on.....and so little communication.
What would I do:
1. Have an FAQ with known questions and answers. Update it every other week, even if the update is "unknown".
2. Provide insiders with a nugget each week. Give us the stats for a monster from an upcoming book. Give us a map from an upcoming book. Give us a feat or power that was cut from a book. Something.
3. Increase, not decrease, communication. Has a single developer updated their blog lately? Heck, give insiders access to designer blogs, that are updated once in awhile.
I bet the development staff has been laid off already and only those who update the character builder and website are still working in the IT department.
We had been looking around at virtual tabletop software and trying to figure out how to get back in to running a weekly game when 4e came out. I went to my local shop and took at look at the first chapter, seeing the information about DDI and the virtual tabletop and dungeon builder.
Stupidly, I imagined that no company would release books detailing content they had not actually built. Even moreso, they wouldn't release books detailing content they had no intention of releasing for a year or more. So I purchased a full set of the core books for 6 players. Only to get home, go to the site, and mash my face against the wall.
I continue to support DDI, because I want it to be successful. These developers simply must engage in a little PR and open communication. I work in a similar industry, where 11 million people or so are ready to comment on my work on a daily basis without knowing anything about what I actually do. I completely understand how frustrating that is. But you know what solves it? Communication. Yes, people will still be pissy, but at least they will not be in the dark. It does the company no long-term good to hide lack of progress in the shadows. When you lose customers to manipulation, you do not gain those customers back.
What is going on with DDI development? What are you working on? How many people are working on it? What kind of builds do you have? Are we in photoshop still here or are we actually seeing something coded and rendered? Your development team take 2 weeks off for D&D XP? Okay! Just let your PAYING customer base know about this stuff. We are paying for products that we have been promised and are not yet receiving. The absolute least that the development staff can do is tell us what is going on.
The Digital Insider column is great in theory, rough in execution. It's not supposed to be marketing, it's supposed to be communication. Tell us where you are, and when we can expect to get the things we've been supporting for so long.
I think that Bill saw that, over the last several issues of DI, that he was simply putting out previews of the next week of Dungeon and Dragon, and that "the natives were getting restless".
He realized that DDI was at a point where they didn't have any real info that could go out anytime soon, and that the information/updates that people are/were looking for could just as easily go out through more intermittent articles, or through WotC_Chuck, WotC_DM or other devs, through editorials n Dungeon or Dragon, or news articles that they post themselves.
Don't take the end of DI as a regular feature to mean that all communication between DDI staff and you will end. I send weekly updates to them on the status of the forums. What people like, and what people don't like. What people want changed, and what things they don't want changed.
Once they get closer to the beta of the next tool, and things start getting to a point where new information *can* be given out on a regular basis, I feel confident that we will see more regular issues of DI.
Having been in a corporate IT group that got to clean up a three-year-old project that wasted $100 million with no deliverables, I don't envy your task. But you can't continue stringing customers along like this and expect them to remain customers. You--and I mean you, Bill--need to either 'fess up to the fact that DDI has been canceled beyond the magazines and the character builder, or give an un-retouched picture of where the project is at.
And if I can make a suggestion, for Pete's sake, look into licensing. There are at least two companies with online game tables that would work, and could be released within months to the WoTC customer base.
Truth is that, many of us were looking for the things you promised and advertised from the beginning , such as the gaming table (leave the visualizer, its sounds just like an appendix of the table..). We have an account that gives a lot of problems (example; why do I have to log on again every 20 minutes.. it takes me 6-8 hours of work to prepare a session, dont you think is uncomfortable?), and all the comunications we receive from you are like if nothing happened, most of the content is not too useful (Do you really feel that the preview of the sorcerer is what we need? we are going to get the PH2 anyway , all of us, are there really so many people which will playtest a class for 3 levels - If there are I assume they have a lot of free time and they are not running a long , structured campaign).
Don't get me wrong, I gave a chance to 4 ed, I have been an hard hard hardcore gamer for more than 12 years. I am testing and appreciating 4th edition, especially as a DM it has very simple rules that let me focus on other important things (however I am finding skill challenges a bit monotone by now), I just dont think that , with a company like Hasbro backing you up, it is fair to promise a lot and deliver almost nothing to people who paid you for yearly subs. (I am sure we wont get all the contents by the end of 2009).
I completely agree with Mudbunny, being in a similar situation as his..
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog
free or pay, but something like this.
1) The Character Visualizer:
-- it looked like it worked pretty well at Gen Con and earlier.
-- if it's mostly done, might as well finish it.
-- most computer games (rpgs, MMOs, Sims, etc) have this kind of thing; it's not like making the Character Builder; there are people out there who already make these products
2) A NPC and Template creation/application tool.
I like slapping templates on monsters or making them Elites or Solos. I like slapping NPC templates on monsters too. It would be great if this could be automated in the Character Builder or something. I still have to do it by hand.
3) Other Character Builder Add-ons:
- A "Print to PDF" function on Character Builder. Please?
- Make those journal pages printable as part of the character sheet.
4) Improved Compendium Functionality, including...
- Easy-grab stat blocks. They need to be printable. A tool that allows us to grab stat blocks onto a single sheet and save them as an image or pdf would be invaluable. We really should be able to save them; longer log times don't solve all the problems. Sometimes there's a weak internet signal in the room you're playing in, sometimes you get logged off in the middle of a game and the DM has to fiddle with the computer in the middle of the action... This sucked in last night's game. Sure, you can copy the blocks into Word, but the formatting is weird and then you're sorting through sheets of paper. We just need to be able to download or grab or at the very least print, stat blocks from the Compendium.
- Traps, Hazards, and Diseases need to be included.
- Better keyword searching. Look up "Human" in the Compendium and notice you don't get monsters from the Monster Manual. Stuff like that.
I have a feeling the Game Table is way, way, way far off so I'm not even going to ask for that yet. The above would improve my game significantly.
It seems to me that the danger here, at least from the forum community's perspective, is that with no regular "official" communication about the status of DDI, speculation will run rampant. People will grab onto snipets of info from any source they can find and then make some wild extrapolations from that info. I don't think this is the best way to go.
Personally, I despise surveys and I am very unlikely to participate in many of them.
* No virtual gaming table
* No Character Visualizer
* No Dungeon Builder
I guess I'm glad that I only paid the $5/month price for DDI. Hey listen, I'm happy with the tools that have been provided. It makes my life as a DM, and the life of my players, much easier, and I appreciate that.
But at the same time, I got excited about 4th edition because of the virtual gaming table and the ability to make customized v-mins, and having the functionality to build an entire adventure on my desktop. And now, it seems like I've got to go back to 3rd party tools to make that happen.
I understand that the priority right now is to pump out a bunch of material, to help buff out the 4th edition resources and keep people interested, but I still feel like there were expectations made on the state of the "full" suite of online tools. And now, instead of even saying "hey guys, it's gonna be a couple of years" on the outstanding online stuff, they just decide to pull a government trick and not mention it at all. WTF?
Hey, I've done my party... I've got every 4th edition book published so far. I've bought mins, and tiles, and adventures and resources, and I play almost every week. I'm committed, but I want to at least know when, if ever, we can expect the rest of the suite of online tools.
Can't a guy even get that much?
However, like so many others, I struggle to find a local gaming group, and therefore the main attraction of D&DI to me has been the promise of the virtual gaming table. If this is no longer forthcoming then I plan to just go with the 4th ed. resources I've gathered so far, and run with those (plus adventures of my own creation).
Finally, as much as I do enjoy 4th edition, and as much as the system does what it does very well, I do find its reliance on maps awkward. Yes, I know it can be run without maps and minis (or coins, tokens or whatever), but it does remove me & my gaming group from picturing scenes in our imaginations. I know this is a personal preference thing, but in this regard I now much prefer World of Darkness.
In 3rd ed., I used maps to a degree, to show my gaming group where things were at, but at least there wasn't the heavy reliance on being 5 or 6 squares away from the big beastie, it was more flexible than that.
Those are some of my thoughts on these matters, some might agree with me, others will disagree.
As a subscriber, I just don't understand why there can be no mention of the next product they're are actually developing. Like many here, I work in the IT world, sometimes guiding largish projects. I do understand not wanting to over-commit again, but it makes no sense not to tell us which projects are seeing actual development. From the accumulated recent material, there's no way subscribers can't feel a sense of doom.
I have the distinct feeling the base decisions have already been made about which projects will see near term development, and which are placed in limbo depending on sales/subscriptions/resources. Not sharing any of this information cannot be good for sales or marketing.
In spite of the coolness of the CB, the overall progress is still very disappointing.
As a subscriber, I just don't understand why there can be no mention of the next product they're are actually developing. Like many here, I work in the IT world, sometimes guiding largish projects. I do understand not wanting to over-commit again, but it makes no sense not to tell us which projects are seeing actual development. From the accumulated recent material, there's no way subscribers can't feel a sense of doom.
Here is why I think they are not disclosing anything until they are closer to a beta.
[hypothetical]
They say that they are working on tool X, and that it is in closed alpha at WotC.
3 weeks go by, and no mention of it moving to beta.
There will then be a flurry of posts of the type:
[indent]...It is obvious that the programmers they have are crap and should be fired...I could put something out like this in a weekend...They are lying to us...[/indent]
[/hypothetical]
That is what the character builder experience has taught them. They are also wary of over committing and then being forced to change plans, which has already happened once.
someone, somehow, should have noticed over at WOTC that there are many people frustrated by the way wotc handles its online affairs. instead of making things better, and actually starting and trying to communicate, they cancel it altogether.
while mudbunny is right, that there will always be those assumptions and speculations, i have to say that this type of effect can only grow when a company does not properly plan or communicate. WOTC software department is completely unable to plan anything - that has been proven over and over again. OK, so they'd need someone to keep communicating. A person most people could live with, has been laid off, replaced by automatic ads, and a month later, replaced by nothing.
THATS THE DIGITAL INITIATIVE WE WANT; DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT?
They say that they are working on tool X, and that it is in closed alpha at WotC.
3 weeks go by, and no mention of it moving to beta.
There will then be a flurry of posts of the type:
...It is obvious that the programmers they have are crap and should be fired...I could put something out like this in a weekend...They are lying to us...
[/hypothetical]
Do you really think that?
As far as I know the most of games in development have a forum where people can discuss about little things that the developing people are releasing, even before than an alpha or a beta of the game, and the people don't complain about that, because they already know when will the game be realised more or less, and the most important thing they know for sure that they are really doing the game, I think the situation is quite different here.
[hypothetical]
They say that they are working on tool X, and that it is in closed alpha at WotC.
3 weeks go by, and no mention of it moving to beta.
There will then be a flurry of posts of the type:
...It is obvious that the programmers they have are crap and should be fired...I could put something out like this in a weekend...They are lying to us...
[/hypothetical]
Do you really think that?
I *know* that it will happen. It happened with the Character Builder, and pretty much every tool that they have put out.
Now it won't be the majority of the posts, but it will be enough that it will discourage WotC from announcing anything until they have stuff to show. Take this thread for example.
No (or next to no) comments on the upcoming goodies he did mention :The Assassin, Familiars, and the Monk (as playtest, not preview).
As far as I know the most of games in development have a forum where people can discuss about little things that the developing people are releasing, even before than an alpha or a beta of the game, and the people don't complain about that, because they already know when will the game be realised more or less, and the most important thing they know for sure that they are really doing the game, I think the situation is quite different here.
And this forum *is* here. People can discuss things, there will be information continue to be released (despite what some people would have you believe), and there will still be communication between WotC and forum users.
Bill is very much caught between a rock and a hard place. They are at a point where there is simply not any information to share.
And this forum *is* here. People can discuss things, there will be information continue to be released (despite what some people would have you believe), and there will still be communication between WotC and forum users.
yeah it's here, and it has been over 2 months since any serious information has come down from wotc to the community via the means of this forum. it would be only logical to scrap this forum as the next step, since there's not really any information to be gained here anymore. i have not seen any post here except by chuck, and his work duty seems to be only "chill emotions" and not "spill facts"
---
and yes, some of those things will happen. but the majority of users works differently than you want them to be. if wotc would give them even the tiniest reason to believe, they'd do so. without communication or any proof of what they are doing, it does not matter whether they put out information or not - people will never trust those who only SAY what they are LIKELY doing, and never put up any confirmational facts as well. simple screenshots every now and then would have been enough to satisfy most of the critics. a blog of DM containing his work week, could be as simple as "fixed bugs #117 and #118, but that damn display bug is still killing me" - would be very very great, easy to do, and over all: give people a feeling that those people really work on what they tell you they'd supposedly do.
You asked for feedback, here it is.
I'm struggling with how to give Wizards my money. I want to give Wizards my money. I've enjoyed LFR quite a bit, and feel guilty that I'm getting so much enjoyment with very little monetary output. I'm signed up for Insider, and I've bought the core books, but I'm not really interested in other materials. Here's why:
* I don't want a whole shelf of books I won't use very often. I have a huge pile of 2E books from before my recently-ended 10-year hiatus from D&D. I don't want to shlep around a ton of books either.
Have you thought about purchasing the PDF version of those books?
Bertman
LOVE 4e... beats the tar outta 3.5 (I never even bothered trying to memorize the rules / too much crap)
Now I am a 4e Herald, Game Organizer for Game Day(PHB2) etc...
I am also a Insider subscriber and the Character Builder was HUGE for me. Instead of having "10" places to look up what I need to do to level up, just follow the yellow brick road.
Here is my wish list!!
Amazon Kindle 2 - hits in a few weeks... I would LOVE to be able to easily read Dragon/Dungeon (insider, etc) all on it. (Especially if I can easily PUSH/PULL them into it automagically as an insider)
I would love even MORE to be able to buy PDFs that can easily be used in there for CORE books, etc. Might take some formatting but... 1 Kindle vs the 10 or so books in my backpack, heck ya!!
Game Table software...that is next. To be really honest... WOTC ought to consider one of the existing models (I already own one of em), buy those guys outright and tweak it and get it out there. Why reinvent the wheel?
Finally - LFR for the Game Table and the other publicized modules.
You guys are doing a great job, keep it up, I am getting more addicted by the day!! (I have 5-6 pre-orders ready to go on Amazon as soon as they release, including MINIS!)
So, bulleted (most important at top):
-Digital Table-Top
-Digital Dungeon Builder
Also, something cool to consider would be D&Di membership points which could perhaps offer discounts on new products such as new books and other products, as an incentive to buy. As a member there could be things like a 15% off and free shipping coupon or something to that effect. (also, setting up an online store here on the website would be a fantastic idea; a one stop shop for all D&D gamer needs, and if offered at a slightly discounted price, you could undercut sites such as amazon and whatnot and bring the buyers straight to you!)
Thanks again WotC, love the work!
~paintknight
So any time frame on the other dnd insider stuff. When i heard about the online tabletop i thought it be out by now. But it seems like it atl east a year away just from the lack of news on it. Also do to the fact that preview page for the other stuff is gone.
When i heard about 4th ed i was lead or wrongfully believed that it come with a online version of the book you bought. and that online tool would quickly follow.
Did i miss something here - Insider is over and all of the tools have yet to be released or even addressed? I thought insider was here to keep us up-to-date on the digital revolution? It appears that 1-2 months ago the verbiage in Insider indicates that these tools may not come to pass - no online play, no character image creation.
Well, my feedback is one of confusion and sadness. Too many of the players I played AD&D with have moved on - the same for 2nd Ed. My 3rd Ed. books weren't even cracked open before 3.5 came out and those groups refuse to upgrade.
I went all out on 4th edition, paying (not downloading) for the Pre-books and most of the material that has come out - dragons should be in the MM - just a thought for 5th Ed. - but i was really looking forward to online play as i feel that 4th ed fixes some of the things 3.x ed broke from 1/2 ed., and some of the things that 1/2 ed had that was broken (anyone still have that THACO table memorized? Nightmares, I tell you, nightmares).
Had I imagined that a year ago we would still not have all the tools available to us, I most likely would not have sunk as much into 4th Ed as I have.
The only thing I can hope and pray for at this point is that 5th Edition will have a combined paper/electronic roll-out.
Please keep the insider going until the complete line of digital tools are available to us. Even if it is only bi-weekly updates, many of us are still looking for the Table Top tools and some of us are intrigued by the Character Image tool.
If the time frame is nixed - just let us know, or did you do that and I just missed it?
Online play, Online play, Online Play - let's here the chant on Game Day - Online Play, Online Play :D
WotC has not announced what tool they will be working on next. What they are doing is taking the time to look at where the various tools are in their development cycle, decide which one should go out next, and work on improving the tools that are already out.
I also want to apologize for the unexpected scheduling updates you’ve seen lately. While the calendar is a living document and we should expect the dates and articles to occasionally change, making changes shouldn’t hit so close to the originally scheduled release date as this Skill Challenges article did. We agree that weeks of notice would be better than days, and we’ll do everything we can to make sure we give appropriate notice when changes have to be made.
The rest of the Digital Tools (Dungeon builder, Character Visualizer, Game table) have not been cancelled. There has been no announcement of it.
From the way they have been talking, it sure sounds like they've been cancelled to me. Or at the very least, put off indefinately, which is a distinction without a difference.
From the way they have been talking, it sure sounds like they've been cancelled to me. Or at the very least, put off indefinately, which is a distinction without a difference.
Interestingly enough, the main page with the Coming Soon of the other tools is gone. The Coming Soon has been replaced with Subscribe with no mention of anything that but what is out. I don't know how long this has been in place, but that is news in of itself I think.
Monks in May as a Playtest Class. Finally, the Monk is featured. I'm disappointed its not going to be in PHB 2. PHB 3. Hurm. So when is that going to be published? 2010?
I think Wizards has "jumped the shark" on the Core Books. The classes and races we had been accustomed to in the 3rd Edition core books should have been in the PHB1. Put all the wacky races (Dragonborn, Tieflings etc.,) in the PHB2 etc., and the new classes that weren't in the 3e core books. I think this was a poor decision on Wizards part to keep stringing us along with races and classes that were core in 3E (Gnomes, Half-Orcs, Monks, Sorcerors, Bards, Barbarians...) and seeding them in other 4e books.
This isn't really the place to debate this issue, but if you look at it from the perspective of supporting the various power sources with extra power books, at least the rollout of the various classes makes a certain degree of logistical sense.
June '08: PH1 provides 4 martial classes, 2 arcane classes, 2 divine classes
Sept '08: FRPG adds 1 arcane class
Oct '08: Martial Power expands existing martial classes
March '09: PH2 provides 4 primal classes, adds 2 arcane classes, 2 divine classes
April '09: Arcane power expands existing arcane classes
July '09: Divine power expands existing arcane classes
Oct '09: Primal power expands existing primal classes
March '10: PH3 provides n ki classes, adds …
Late '10: Ki power expands existing ki classes … (speculation)
I'm not saying I wouldn't have welcomed a fully playable, 30-level monk in PH1. I 'm just saying that the rollout of classes does have a logic to it.
The rest of the Digital Tools (Dungeon builder, Character Visualizer, Game table) have not been cancelled. There has been no announcement of it.
WotC has not announced what tool they will be working on next. What they are doing is taking the time to look at where the various tools are in their development cycle, decide which one should go out next, and work on improving the tools that are already out.
I have to admit that as much as I love the content WotC has put out for 4e, this issue of the digital tools has been pretty frustrating. From the pre-4e hype, I and many others expected these tools to be live when the 4e core books shipped. We're closing in on a year later with just one of the four big tools released. Bummer.
Hey all. I just wanted to drop in and talk about the “Ruling Skill Challenges” article that was scheduled to be released today. If you’ve checked the calendar today, you’ll see that the article was moved to next Wednesday. There were some scheduling conflicts and it was decided to move the article to next week, but unfortunately the calendar wasn’t updated with that information until today.
*blink "scheduling conflicts" of something planned to publish?
This is double speech if nothing else is.
The only way it could be a "scheduling conflicts" is a person tasks to produced to much too soon or IT did not have the time to post it. Your comment on the face of it needs to be the former, however more likely WotC provided an extension for time to complete. Oh WotC clearly has the right to change schedule, however when dealing with the customers an advanced (and explained) reason for changes likely would help much as far as interaction goes.
I do not like being treated like a mushroom.
Interestingly enough, the main page with the Coming Soon of the other tools is gone. The Coming Soon has been replaced with Subscribe with no mention of anything that but what is out. I don't know how long this has been in place, but that is news in of itself I think.
this is a good point to bring up. is it a mere coincidence, that DI and that ad-removal come at pretty much the same date? i would say not. but since WOTC always fails at bringing such points across, i doubt we will hear anything about it, except for "statements" from the CM team (trevor+chuck - while they are great at saying nothing to smooth things over, they are also great at hiding anything they know from us.)
Also, something cool to consider would be D&Di membership points which could perhaps offer discounts on new products such as new books and other products, as an incentive to buy. As a member there could be things like a 15% off and free shipping coupon or something to that effect. (also, setting up an online store here on the website would be a fantastic idea; a one stop shop for all D&D gamer needs, and if offered at a slightly discounted price, you could undercut sites such as amazon and whatnot and bring the buyers straight to you!)
I don't mean to derail this thread but this is the kinda post and ideas that I hope don't get traction. Goodman games has just announced a new magazine that will be cheaper if you buy it at a FLGS than if you subscribe. They feel, and I agree, that FLGS are a vital part of the RPG community. I also feel that WotC agrees with this sentiment. However, they are only expressing it when we discuss the cost of a .pdf version of a book.
Don't get me wrong I really like the tools that have been released, however, I continue to buy books and minis by WotC and other companies because I want to support my local FLGS.
Just had to express this... You may now continue discussing DI.
All I want is comformation one way or the other. WOTC owes it to the customer base. Why does WOTC feel the need to be secretive with this stuff all of a sudden again?
Interestingly enough, the main page with the Coming Soon of the other tools is gone. The Coming Soon has been replaced with Subscribe with no mention of anything that but what is out. I don't know how long this has been in place, but that is news in of itself I think.
That was changed sometime after February 7th; Google's cache still shows the "Upcoming Features" link instead.
The rest of the Digital Tools (Dungeon builder, Character Visualizer, Game table) have not been cancelled. There has been no announcement of it.
They'll try their best to keep it from us and make it as quiet as possible. The same way they did with the DDi 4e screw-up.
All they do is lure us along with carrets to keep us coming back.
I have played and been a part of D&D from the beginning and every
new company that has bought or took it over from the start
has only money on its mind. I want to see WOTC keep to what
they said and make the products they say there going to do.
This matter with the Character Visualizer, D&D Game Table and
D&D Dungeon Builder is still not done and with no date when or
if it ever will be, I have been down this road with D&D before and
they almost never do what they say they will.
I agree with many of the things said by :Kentinal, RCanine and others.
This is sad it has come to this after about 40 years of me being
with D&D.
Here is why I think they are not disclosing anything until they are closer to a beta.
[hypothetical]
They say that they are working on tool X, and that it is in closed alpha at WotC.
3 weeks go by, and no mention of it moving to beta.
There will then be a flurry of posts of the type:
[indent]...It is obvious that the programmers they have are crap and should be fired...I could put something out like this in a weekend...They are lying to us...[/indent]
[/hypothetical]
That is what the character builder experience has taught them. They are also wary of over committing and then being forced to change plans, which has already happened once.
I understand your points completely, but there's a huge difference between over committing and saying "we're stepping back to take a look, and we'll let you know when we know". This is what I meant by "doom". I don't follow the forums daily, but have been following DDI fairly close since the early, frustrating days in '07. Based on everything I've seen in the last year and half (and 25+ years of purchasing from TSR/WoTC), my confidence level in their ability to deliver further digital products is really waning. And I'm a cheerleader, most of the time.
Here's to hoping that sometime in the next few weeks they'll announce at least tentative development plans. If not, I believe they'll start to see a serious loss of interest/faith from within the community.
And, even though I know I'm in the minority here, I'd like to again "vote" for continued progress on the visualizer. I suck that bad as an artist, that I'd really like the ability to create cool looking character portraits. Reasonable game tables we already have, imo, but I've not found a similar tool for creating character images.
I'm so tweaked with WOTC. We were promised that we as INSIDERS would not get the mushroom treatment (as one other member pointed out). That we would be constantly informed and kept in the loop. That was clearly a lie. They are marketing to us, not talking to us about what we actually want to know or what they said they would tell us.
We were promised a visualizer that integrates with the table top which integrates with a dungeon builder. We were promised that some of that would be done with the rest out by the middle of this year. A lie.
I hate being lied to. I hate being brushed off. And I really hate it when both are done with the skill and deftness that WOTC does it.
So as happy as I am with the products that are out, I'm not happy with how WOTC treats it's so-called "insiders."
Paizo Publishing has a great thing going, and WOTC should take a leaf out of their book. They treat their members great and there communication is efficient, honest, and highly effective.
I have a list of suggestions:
License. Let others write material so that you can focus on the tools.
Contract out to other companies to build your tools and make them compatible with each other.
OR do both.
As a business owner I have little time or patience for incompetence or procrastination. It is unprofessional. If I treated my clients like this, I'd have no clients. If you're afraid that honesty with your insiders will lose you customers, just keep on doing what you're doing and see how many you'll lose.
I can't believe the outrage you guys are spouting right now... Wow. Seriously.
I think this is one of the best decisions that the WotC D&D Insider team has made. I think canceling Digital Insider as a weekly update makes total sense and providing the content in the other THREE editorials (Ampersand, Dungeon, Dragon) is completely acceptable.
I don't need a weekly update on every scrap of code the developers are writing... Gimme a break. Honestly, I'd prefer direct contact via the forums and whatnot as Bill suggested in his article when juicy bits of significant info is available for release.
I also have to take my hat off to Bill for taking this stance, and owning up to the lack of content in the past few articles.
As for the other tools, I honestly don't see how you guys can correlate the cancellation of a weekly update, that really had no content and was filler for the most part, to the cancellation of all planned releases... ever.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I applaud this decision (especially considering the last thread on this topic lead to a VAST majority of subscribers calling the - yup you guessed it - CANCELLATION OF THE COLUMN!).
I hope the 5 minutes Bill took every week goes to furthering the excellence of the other tools and we can get updates regularly when necessary.
Monks in May as a Playtest Class. Finally, the Monk is featured. I'm disappointed its not going to be in PHB 2. PHB 3. Hurm. So when is that going to be published? 2010?
I think Wizards has "jumped the shark" on the Core Books. The classes and races we had been accustomed to in the 3rd Edition core books should have been in the PHB1. Put all the wacky races (Dragonborn, Tieflings etc.,) in the PHB2 etc., and the new classes that weren't in the 3e core books. I think this was a poor decision on Wizards part to keep stringing us along with races and classes that were core in 3E (Gnomes, Half-Orcs, Monks, Sorcerors, Bards, Barbarians...) and seeding them in other 4e books.
I like the new races and classes, they needed to put the new classes and races in PH1 too add variety and spice things up. Who wants the same old stuff. By the way Dragonborn and Tiefling are alot more fun to play then Gnomes and half-orcs.:D
I don't want to wait 3 months for something that was 'core' in 3.X. I'm sure most Monk fans out there would agree with me that they'd like to see what Ki Powers look like, and how they plan on making the Monk fill out his role as a Striker effectively.
Regarding WotC's question of stepping back and looking at the order that they want to present stuff in, they could do this:
Dear Insiders,
For the upcoming month of March, we have one of the following for you to choose from. Please log in and vote (voting ends February 28th):
(1.) Assassins!
(2.) Familiars!
(3.) Monks!
Currently, D&DI is like a restaurant where you go in and pay good money, but only get to eat what they tell you to eat. And most of the time you're being fed Durians or something like that (ok some people like Durians, but you get the point). When I eat out, I'd like to choose what I eat when I'm paying.
So with a voting system like this, people who subscribe would not only get more 'inside info', but will also be able to choose what we get.
Cheers
Interestingly enough, the main page with the Coming Soon of the other tools is gone. The Coming Soon has been replaced with Subscribe with no mention of anything that but what is out. I don't know how long this has been in place, but that is news in of itself I think.
I hadn't noticed that, and combined with cancelling 'digital insider' and their comments previously about 'taking stock' of where they are, its a very troubling sign.
I don't need a weekly update on every scrap of code the developers are writing... Gimme a break. Honestly, I'd prefer direct contact via the forums and whatnot as Bill suggested in his article when juicy bits of significant info is available for release.
I also have to take my hat off to Bill for taking this stance, and owning up to the lack of content in the past few articles.
As for the other tools, I honestly don't see how you guys can correlate the cancellation of a weekly update, that really had no content and was filler for the most part, to the cancellation of all planned releases... ever.
I don't think you have any idea of the history of failed computer supported products for DnD. TSR/ WOTC has a long history of promising things and not delivering. Etools, Master tools.
I'm not asking for updates on every bit of code. I don't think anyone else is either. But its been at least two months since WOTC has said anything about them. Thats a bad sign.
I think ending the columm is a good idea if they are not going to tell use anything. I feel WOTC is trying to pull the wool over our eyes yet again.
I'd give anything for Randy or someone that was laid off to come back here and post what really happened and tell us why WOTC is being so silent on the progress of these tools.
Remember these tools were promised on the launch of 4th ed.. When they were not ready on launch day we did not get any word from WOTC that it was delayed for almost two months.
I'm confused as to why you want to give a company that treats its customers like this any breaks whatsoever.
I can't believe the outrage you guys are spouting right now... Wow. Seriously.
I believe the outrage you're referring to comes as a result of cumulative missteps regarding the handling of DDI. For me, this goes all the way back to the early efforts at the digital magazines, after taking back that task from Paizo. We can discuss DDI in a vacuum, but the issues that have occurred have been building for well over a year now for many of us. Everything that happens now is analyzed more critically in light of earlier commitments, some of which have been completed, but only after very lengthy delays.
I think you already know this, but the outrage isn't really about Bill dropping the column, it's about a subscriber's sense of abandonment. Hopefully there will be enough warm fuzzy announcements in the proceeding months to keep enough people engaged and onboard.
As a DM from the days of first edition, I would like to request several digital projects which I feel will enhance the game for both players, and DM's. I recall the digital products made by TSR in second edition, and several of these were very handy for a DM attempting to build an adventure. The most used of these, at least for me, were a simple map creation program for both indoor and outdoor settings, a random loot generator, random encounter generator, and a random magic item generator. I would like to see some attempt made at simplifying the treasure packages for DM's. I feel that the PC's have all the tools they need in this system, but the DM (who is also the most important guy at the table) is lacking a few tools that would make his job much easier to do. I think we all know that the job of any good DM is telling that epic story we all look forward to experiencing together. Thanks for all your hard work on fourth edition!
MorgN the Hated
Digital Insider stopping? And how do the majority of paying customers read this?
* No virtual gaming table
* No Character Visualizer
* No Dungeon Builder
I guess I'm glad that I only paid the $5/month price for DDI. Hey listen, I'm happy with the tools that have been provided. It makes my life as a DM, and the life of my players, much easier, and I appreciate that.
But at the same time, I got excited about 4th edition because of the virtual gaming table and the ability to make customized v-mins, and having the functionality to build an entire adventure on my desktop. And now, it seems like I've got to go back to 3rd party tools to make that happen.
I understand that the priority right now is to pump out a bunch of material, to help buff out the 4th edition resources and keep people interested, but I still feel like there were expectations made on the state of the "full" suite of online tools. And now, instead of even saying "hey guys, it's gonna be a couple of years" on the outstanding online stuff, they just decide to pull a government trick and not mention it at all. WTF?
Hey, I've done my party... I've got every 4th edition book published so far. I've bought mins, and tiles, and adventures and resources, and I play almost every week. I'm committed, but I want to at least know when, if ever, we can expect the rest of the suite of online tools.
Can't a guy even get that much?
This - This is exactly what i think - well stated sir!
This - This is exactly what i think - well stated sir!
The problem is they've tried giving a date for the full suite before and failed to live up to it - this garnered much rage from the community that STILL lingers and will continue to linger until the tools arrive. But once bitten, twice shy as they say.
They didn't even give a date for the Character Builder when they knew they were going to release it by "the end of the month" in January. That's how skittish WotC is about releasing any sort of publication date for the rest of the D&DI tools.
So, no. I don't expect them to divulge that information.
But they won't even say what they're working on. If they can't tell us which is the next tool, why should anyone trust that the rest haven't been dropped?
Because, maybe they don't know what they are going to work on next.
My guess is that they are going to spend some time refining the current tools, magazines, and Character Builder.
Because, maybe they don't know what they are going to work on next.
We may be going in a loop here, but if they haven't planned out what to work on next, that's another sign that they don't know what they're doing when it comes to a major project. We didn't need any more of those, but we keep on getting them anyway.
My guess is that they are going to spend some time refining the current tools, magazines, and Character Builder.
If so, why not just say as much? Or did I miss it somewhere?
We may be going in a loop here, but if they haven't planned out what to work on next, that's another sign that they don't know what they're doing when it comes to a major project. We didn't need any more of those, but we keep on getting them anyway.
If so, why not just say as much? Or did I miss it somewhere?
Perhaps you missed the Digital Insider where Bill had this to say:
"After that… well, we’re working on that. We had grand plans and we were overly ambitious in what could actually be accomplished in the time we had. We don’t want to overextend or overpromise anymore. We’re going to finish the D&D Character Builder, then take stock of where we are and what we can and should concentrate on next. Things are in the works, and I look forward to the day when the whole grand plan comes together. But we’ll be more realistic in our goals and timelines moving forward. I’ll talk more about this in the weeks and months ahead, both here and in Digital Insider."
Well, actually that was taken from the "Ampersand" column... Once again proving we DON'T need a Digital Insider column.
My guess is that they are going to spend some time refining the current tools, magazines, and Character Builder.
Which is just another way of saying they are setting the other things aside indefinitely.
Would I be too cynical in translating the implicit message as "After sacking the people who were finally making a good impression with PR, we've discovered it's a lot harder than we thought, so we're canning this"? *sighs*
Hmmm. Realize this be a longshot, but you wouldn't be the same Paulon from the rgcud newsgroup, by chance?
Perhaps you missed the Digital Insider where Bill had this to say:
I admit had forgotten about that. Then again... how long ago was that posted? A full month? And they still haven't decided which of the DDI projects is next a month later? That's a little ominous.
Well, actually that was taken from the "Ampersand" column... Once again proving we DON'T need a Digital Insider column.
Since the Ampersand column (unlike the Dungeon and Dragon editorials incidentally) is Subscriber Only, having stuff like that only in there would be another blunder, cutting potential or undecided customers out of the information loop.
Hmmm. Realize this be a longshot, but you wouldn't be the same Paulon from the rgcud newsgroup, by chance?
Oddly enough, or perhaps not so oddly, it's me. It's been a while hasn't it Helgraf? I'll follow up via PM so we don't derail things in this thread.
I admit had forgotten about that. Then again... how long ago was that posted? A full month? And they still haven't decided which of the DDI projects is next a month later? That's a little ominous.
Well, you can read into it all you want. All I am saying is that Bill and WotC has stated their stance on deadlines and the future of D&D Insider. At the moment, all we can do is wait and hope.
I'll say what Bill and other WotC reps can't (or won't):
If those of you who are really interested in seeing the gametable or other tools want it to happen, SUBSCRIBE now so that Insider can see an influx of capital and thereby be able to justify the expansion of the initiative. If they see a ton of people paying $5 for the current allotment of tools, then perhaps to higher-ups will consider releasing more tools for $10 or $15...
After all, I am sure the D&D Insider people have to justify their expenses. The more subscribers, the more justified in injecting more cash into the gametable and dungeon builder.
Here's the link to sign up: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider
Since the Ampersand column (unlike the Dungeon and Dragon editorials incidentally) is Subscriber Only, having stuff like that only in there would be another blunder, cutting potential or undecided customers out of the information loop.
Sounds like most people who were complaining about the content of the Digital Insider were wanting it to be the "inside scoop" that Ampersand provides. I think Ampersand is a fine column that can encompass all the little "Insider" goodies that people want to see and when it's relevant.
The problem is they've tried giving a date for the full suite before and failed to live up to it - this garnered much rage from the community that STILL lingers and will continue to linger until the tools arrive. But once bitten, twice shy as they say.
They didn't even give a date for the Character Builder when they knew they were going to release it by "the end of the month" in January. That's how skittish WotC is about releasing any sort of publication date for the rest of the D&DI tools.
So, no. I don't expect them to divulge that information.
Fair enough how about tem statign that they are continuing to develop more insider tools, and the order they plan to work on them. An estimate of the remaining development time on each of them would be fantastic but a confirmation that things are still going ahead would be enough for me.
Well, you can read into it all you want. All I am saying is that Bill and WotC has stated their stance on deadlines and the future of D&D Insider. At the moment, all we can do is wait and hope.
While I bet a lot of people would be thrilled with a solid deadline, I doubt anyone is expecting one at this point. But what's really off-putting is that they won't (or more frighteningly can't) even say what the next planned release is to be.
Maybe the current tools do need polishing and embellishment, and they want to do that first. Fair enough if that's what they think the most productive use of their time is at present. But they can't possibly not have decided what they're doing after that can they? And if they have, why not just say so?
If it hadn't been for their past record, there wouldn't be this kind of response. But they've stonewalled since DDI didn't release on time, and it's no wonder people expect the worst when they're not given information by now. It's what WotC has led them to expect from them.
I'll say what Bill and other WotC reps can't (or won't):
If those of you who are really interested in seeing the gametable or other tools want it to happen, SUBSCRIBE now so that Insider can see an influx of capital and thereby be able to justify the expansion of the initiative. If they see a ton of people paying $5 for the current allotment of tools, then perhaps to higher-ups will consider releasing more tools for $10 or $15...
After all, I am sure the D&D Insider people have to justify their expenses. The more subscribers, the more justified in injecting more cash into the gametable and dungeon builder.
Here's the link to sign up: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider
Before the last round of sackings, I'd have signed up for at least three months once they canned the compulsory auto-renewal. But it's been months with no action on that front, and in the meantime WotC has slipped steadily back towards the same kind of behaviour which alienated so many people in the first place with their refusal to even admit that the DDI was delayed for months. Right now I'm not sure I really want to sign up, based on the discussions about Dungeon and Dragon content reductions. The tools I'd enjoy playing with are in apparent limbo, so what is there to attract me other than to 'support the team' which treats its customers like mushrooms?
They're in a Catch 22 situation. They want, and probably need, people to pay money to support further development. But their PR has been so atrocious that I suspect an awful lot of people now won't sign up until they have the content available because they no longer trust promises from WotC. So... no money, no tools, DDI flops. I hope not, but I could see it happening as things stand right now. It puts me in mind of the old saying about the nail and the horseshoe... where the lack of a single nail (or in this case simple openness and honesty to their customers) cost the kingdom.
Sounds like most people who were complaining about the content of the Digital Insider were wanting it to be the "inside scoop" that Ampersand provides. I think Ampersand is a fine column that can encompass all the little "Insider" goodies that people want to see and when it's relevant.
Since I'm not a subscriber, I can't comment about insider only content in Ampersand. It makes sense to put it there. But general status or information about how DDI is going shouldn't be subscriber only. Of course they haven't said it will be subscriber limited either, so this is a bit of a sidetrack.
However they cant even give us a vague idea of when the game table or other online tools are coming out and have removed all informations about the other items like the game table, map builder, and the pc visualer.
Yet they keep expecting us to buy their books and such. By gen con I have to bring my Player hand book 1 and 2, forgotten realm player handbook, adventurer vault 1 (maybe two), martial power, arcane power, divine power. that's 7 books. Guess WOTC is trying to get me in shape by hauling a load of book all over. To bad there not digital versions that i know of to lighten the load.
Actually there are ebooks. You can get them as PDFs from DrivethruRPG.com. Of course while there is a discount on the retail price over the cost of the physical book, there isn't any further one if you've already purchased a copy.
As far as those go, I have not seen any indication that what is for sale in PDF has been corrected, that the purchase of the ebook would have all the errors that the PHB, DMG, etc. had in them when they went to print. Errata has been put out, that owning the ebook would require edit or reference to the correction file.
Hey, if they even said those ebooks were updated once a month like the CB they might be able to sell more of them.
Added note: The file dates on my downloads say 25th of November, so they're current up to about then. I don't know what would happen with the 5 download limit at DrivethruRPG if they keep making updates though. They should be able to add to the limit like some other companies seem to. But I'm not sure if they thought of it.
Great WotC_Trevor! I'm glad someone comes here and writes a few words in response to the ongoing concerns. It doesn't matter to me if an article is moved or if can't comment on the next DDI application - as long as someone posts in this forum and tries to make clear what is going on. Your comment on the pushed back articles is a step in the direction of re-establishing communication with the WoTC-customer base and that's a good thing!
You consider this an improvement in communication?
We did not post it when we said we would, after it was not posted is part of the problem.
The Barbarian article is the best example. It was promised one month sooner and before fee, but no one was told it was delayed. The only comment was after it was ready and announced because it was pushed into fee section that article would be no fee.
WotC_Trevor! might make a very good post within the 24 hours announced, but no matter what is posted it will be days after the fact. This type of communication gap is what lead to the establishment of the weekly DI reports. It is not like we wanted source code and they are so many outstanding issues, that one would hope once a week one could report progress on. It is not any demand for a release date, most (I suspect) have given up on that, it is more a request of issues being dealt with. Reduced pages in the ezines, CB and C updates would even be nice (added features usability) and of course even a comment of being on track to open beta something new in months (if not weeks).
One user posted the concept of signup now or there will not be enough money to complete the project. In some ways this might be correct, however there clearly is no assurance that every DDI dollar received will be spent on future work on the applications. Even if this was the case it might take years before paying users see a result of their investment.
I fail to see improved communication at all. Solice and Gamer_Zero communicated more then what we are getting now.
Trevor might wow me into changing my mind about improved communication, however Chuck has not done all that well and Ken Troop had a complete failure. Not sure what to look forward to.
I just spoke with WotC_Trevor. He is aware of the concerns surrounding the cancellation of DIgital Insider and the change in the DDI website. He will be posting something tomorrow morning (PST). Until then, I, your NGs and the WotC DDI team ask your patience.
Patience, thats all WOTC has asked us for since they said the DDi tools would be delayed TWO MONTHS AFTER THEY WERE PROMISED.
When is the company going to start acting like real men and be straght with the customer?
Will Trevor answer our questions directly, or will he use company double speak?
1. Yes or no, is WOTC still planning to put out the character viewer, dungeon maker and game table as promised?
2. If the answer is no, why did WOTC decide to totally mislead the customer base when they knew that they were not going to go ahead with the tools.
I for one am very POed that WOTC keeps screwing with the customer and can't trust anything the company says.
I for one am very POed that WOTC keeps screwing with the customer and can't trust anything the company says.
Then you won't use an answer...
And yes i whish for some things too, above all at the moemnt if PayPal will be an option in the near future (as in this or next month).
And i too would really hope that WotCs-PR would come down to us and tell us whats happening and what not and MAYBE a why.
I mean, we are the customer base, aren't we?
We on this forum are the guys who spread the word, who spend the money!
And i don't see any TV commercials so we are everything the WotC-PR has to relay thier game to the others.
- The caracter builder is great.
- The encounter builder on the other hand is useless.*
*When I saw the encounter builder I immidiately though GREAT, thats what I need to make real great quest for my players and not have to bring my monster manual around and browse it endlessly during encounters. But after working with it a minute, its useless. It NEEDS to show the monsters specs, if it doesn't it's useless. So I suggest you make it available only to DnDI subscriber and provide a sheet as it is made for Adventure supplement (Tower of Spallgrad and such) so that I can print my encounter quicksheet so my adventure goes smoothly.
Thanx for asking us what we think.
I will edit this post if I have more feedback.
Look the main thing sparking most doubt is the fact that the other DDI apps info can't even be found on the site. If they would just restore those pages everything would be hunkydory.
as for delays... I expect full DDI before my promised UT3 linux client (which I bought on release day)...
WOTC needs to give us a straight explanation on if any of the other ddi tools are in development, if not what happened to them, and last but not least why do they seem to stay out of contact with the customer base.
In short no they do not owe a duty to the customer base at all.
As part of the customer base, indeed it is desired and the customer base might be deceasing because of lack of communication.
WotC owes a duty to the laws they operate under and the owners of the company and no one else.
In short no they do not owe a duty to the customer base at all.
As part of the customer base, indeed it is desired and the customer base might be deceasing because of lack of communication.
WotC owes a duty to the laws they operate under and the owners of the company and no one else.
Such an impersonal and disloyal attitude towards the customer base will only ensure a smaller not larger market for DND. Which means less $$$. Which means less quality. Which means less customers. Even IF all they really care about is $$$, they need to in turn care about getting people to want to KEEP giving it to them. Business 101, the most important revenue you will get is that from return customers. Return customers will market for you more effectively than any other form of marketing. On the flip side customers who are PO'd actually market directly against you. It is a studied fact that a PO'd customer shares their negative experience with 10 times the people they would if they were happy with the service.
Simple math tells us that if 1,000 happy customers market to 1 potential customer a month, that makes 12,000 potential subscribers a year. if those same customers are PO'd, that makes 100,000 potential customers a year that the company will have to work 3-5 times harder to turn into a subscriber.
If you take care of your customers, you ensure success. Wizards competitors like Paizo are banking in big because of WOTC poor and dwindling customer relations.
I just spoke with WotC_Trevor. He is aware of the concerns surrounding the cancellation of DIgital Insider and the change in the DDI website. He will be posting something tomorrow morning (PST). Until then, I, your NGs and the WotC DDI team ask your patience.
So where is this promised post? It is no longer morning PST.
I just spoke with WotC_Trevor. He is aware of the concerns surrounding the cancellation of DIgital Insider and the change in the DDI website. He will be posting something tomorrow morning (PST). Until then, I, your NGs and the WotC DDI team ask your patience.
Ahem.
Tomorrow morning (PST) has come and gone...
when will the character builder be compatible with macs.(without the use of conversion software).There is much speculation, controversy, and debate about the the "Ki" power source of the monk. I was wondering if, by some small faint chance, a WotC member could tell us whether or not aspects (big or small) of the 3.5 Incarnum will be folded into Ki.
The Incarnum fanbase, while small, is quite vocal... so even if my previous question about Incarnum is not answered, could we maybe get some more "sampler" ideas about what Ki is all about?
So where is this promised post? It is no longer morning PST.
Ahem.
Tomorrow morning (PST) has come and gone...
Pulls out poking stick.
I'll be back...
Pulls out poking stick.
I'll be back...
:OMG!
I’ve been reading what you’re saying concerning the DI article and D&D Insider, and I want you to know that all of this feedback you’re generating is being listened to, and is incredibly useful. In fact, to help us collect this feedback, we’ve posted up a D&D Insider survey that we’d like you to funnel your opinions into. In this survey you’ll find, among other things, points that focus on what applications you want for D&D Insider, what portions of D&D Insider you find useful, and how likely you are to use specific D&D Insider tools. If you’re interested, we definitely want to hear from you, and it should only take a few minutes. As Bill said in his article – we need to take a moment to evaluate where we want to go next, and to do that we need to fully engage you in the process.
Along with the surveys I want you to understand that we’re still dedicated to making the D&D Insider experience and tools the best that they can possibly be. This has not changed, nor do I see it changing in the foreseeable future. We still have the same great teams of people working on bringing you exactly what you want – we just want to make sure that what we’re giving you is what you want.
I urge you to continue this discussion and take a few minutes to give us your feedback and fill out the survey
Thanks for your help!
i dont know if this is the right place to ask this question but ,
Probably never. Since all new macs come with boot camp WOTC figures we'll all run out and buy windows so we can run the client based tools.
Personally I don't see why they didn't do what pokerstars and fulltilt have done and allow it to work on both. Macs and PC both use the same processor now, so it makes it a lot easier than it used to be. At least that is what I am told by a lot of IT guys.
But since WOTC seems set on not accommodating Mac users, my suggestion is to get a copy of XP and run that instead of Vista. One it will cost you less and two you don't get to experience all the constant annoyances with Vista.
This is from one of the (ex)-devs on DDI and macs:
I would have love to have done a mac version. I have a mac. I also have an iphone.
When I originally joined the project though I was given a 6 month time frame to full release, 3 months to beta, and by the way, that includes the time I could spend hiring a staff. Staff was, fortunately, hired in short order, and I was lucky to get some great people on the team. With the short schedule though we were making decisions between releasing it as a web app, or perhaps winforms. We mocked up a web app and it wasn't responsive enough, we mocked up a winforms prototype, and it was slow and lacked the ability to do all the things we wanted to do so we ported to WPF which set us back a week but was so worth it. We were able to do more things, have better control of the UI and development time was very fast.
Given the short schedule that we had it wouldn't have been reasonable to make a multi-platform version. Once we were done with the initial build I did cost out what it would take to make a mac version, as I think it is short sighted not to make one. The problem being that Wizards just doesn't have enough mac customers yet. They would need something like 10 times as many in order for it to break even, and that's not counting the fact that the majority of mac users can run windows apps in some sort of vm setup.
It's also entirely possible that by the time there are enough mac customers there will also be either native osx support for wpf, or some sort of rapid development tool for mac/iphone that could be trivially ported too. It's also possible that with the coming release of windows7 that XP will drop in price so much that it doesn't make sense not to have a copy running in a vm with your mac.
So where is this promised post? It is no longer morning PST.
IIRC the statement was late PM PST, it is hardly late PM yet there.
I did notice him lurking before, perhaps reading.
In short no they do not owe a duty to the customer base at all.
As part of the customer base, indeed it is desired and the customer base might be deceasing because of lack of communication.
WotC owes a duty to the laws they operate under and the owners of the company and no one else.
Part of why the customer base is so POed is we were promised all these tools to be ready by the launch of 4th ed. June 6th. That day came and went and WOTC did not say anything about the tools being delayed for two months after that. As a customer, do you like being treated with this level of disrespect?
We come back because WOTC owns DnD.
Re: Macs:
This is from one of the (ex)-devs on DDI and macs:
A problem with this though is that XP is no longer sold except by private people. Furthermore Microsoft has stopped all support of it.
I'd love to fill out the survey. Uh, where is it?
Click the links in Trevor's post, that should bring you to the survey, or at least it did for me.
I'd love to fill out the survey. Uh, where is it?
I imbedded it in the hyperlinks, probalby wasn't all that obvious. Here's a direct link: http://deploy.ztelligence.com/start/index.jsp?PIN=13AXL2J4CQ6Y4
You may have to disable pop-up blockers to get the survey to actually pop when you click, though I didn't experience any of those problems.
Hey again all, sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
I’ve been reading what you’re saying concerning the DI article and D&D Insider, and I want you to know that all of this feedback you’re generating is being listened to, and is incredibly useful. In fact, to help us collect this feedback, we’ve posted up a D&D Insider survey that we’d like you to funnel your opinions into. In this survey you’ll find, among other things, points that focus on what applications you want for D&D Insider, what portions of D&D Insider you find useful, and how likely you are to use specific D&D Insider tools. If you’re interested, we definitely want to hear from you, and it should only take a few minutes. As Bill said in his article – we need to take a moment to evaluate where we want to go next, and to do that we need to fully engage you in the process.
Along with the surveys I want you to understand that we’re still dedicated to making the D&D Insider experience and tools the best that they can possibly be. This has not changed, nor do I see it changing in the foreseeable future. We still have the same great teams of people working on bringing you exactly what you want – we just want to make sure that what we’re giving you is what you want.
I urge you to continue this discussion and take a few minutes to give us your feedback and fill out the survey
Thanks for your help!
Why can't you just come out and say what the next toll is you are working on and the progress of that? Why does WOTC need to mislead the customers all the time?
Why can't you just come out and say what the next toll is you are working on and the progress of that? Why does WOTC need to mislead the customers all the time?
How is asking "What tool do you want us to work on next" misleading the customer??
I'd love to fill out the survey. Uh, where is it?
If you block popups, you probably won't see it. It's a popup survey when you visit the main site (or maybe it pops up once and if you close it, you won't get it again).
I filled it out. IIRC, there's a bunch of questions on what you play, how you play (face to face, VTT, etc), and what you own. It then presents a bunch of potential future tools (gametable, treasure generators, stuff like that) and asks what you envision yourself using if WotC were to make them.
It also asks how useful you find the current stuff on offer from DDI, and the final substantial questions (aside from demographics) were whether you trust WotC to a) deliver excellent digital products, and b) deliver them in a timely fashion.
How is asking "What tool do you want us to work on next" misleading the customer??
Where does he ask that in his post? I don't see that he asked that in his post at all. I also thought WOTC was suposted to be working on these tools anyway and give us progress of them in the digital insider articles. But they stoped doing both the articles and progress of the tools at all.
They totally mislead the customers with the launch of DDi and I for one will never let them forget it until I see alot better commincation and honesty from WOTC as a company.
OTOH he did post something
A number of the survey questions are, as Mock said, aimed at WotC determining what tool we (the community) want to see them work on next.
Why can't you just come out and say what the next toll is you are working on and the progress of that? Why does WOTC need to mislead the customers all the time?
Dude, he posted a poll that asks us what WE want them to work on. No miss-leading in that post at all. They clearly aren't working on any tool right now.
I refuse to complete the survey, it requires too much personal information.
What personal information??
IIRC, it asks for :
Age
Sex
Country
Where does he ask that in his post? I don't see that he asked that in his post at all.
He presented a poll, which is a very serious form of presenting a question.
I refuse to complete the survey, it requires too much personal information.
OTOH he did post something
IMO If you don't help by sharing your thoughts with them when they ask, like now, then you have little foundation to complain when things don't go the way you think they should.
How is asking "What tool do you want us to work on next" misleading the customer??
Uh I guess he thinks it's just a poll and it makes no difference what the answers are.
I guess a lot of the trust in WotC stands and falls with the next Character Builder update - when it will occure and what will be in.
What personal information??
IIRC, it asks for :
Age
Sex
Country
That is where I stopped, also did not like a remote site trying to place a cookie on my box. I do not know if there was a further demand for other personal information after that.
I know for many it is not an issue, for me that any require the data is invasion of my privacy. Oh I know all sites know about where I live because I do not use a proxy to access the site (the only reason this might not be true would occur would be for some reason my ISP used one that IT would not know where I live).
IMO If you don't help by sharing your thoughts with them when they ask, like now, then you have little foundation to complain when things don't go the way you think they should.
My thoughts I was very willing to share, just not personal data that should not matter much as to my thoughts. Personal data is used for whom to target to try to sell to.
My thoughts I was very willing to share, just not personal data that should not matter much as to my thoughts. Personal data is used for whom to target to try to sell to.
Age matters a lot, how is there base target market and how do they poll. Who is their secondary and tertiary market, how do they poll.
Demographics are important: How do they poll in the US vs outside, male vs female. Especially since they are trying to make DND more female friendly.
I don't see that he asked that in his post at all.
Hence the survey he has linked everyone to...
What about PSIONICS!? It's always been the bastard child of D&D. With 4E, I thought it would finally be fully integrated. But when?
Bertman
That is where I stopped, also did not like a remote site trying to place a cookie on my box. I do not know if there was a further demand for other personal information after that.
IIRC, the demographic questions on age, sex, etc. were at the end, so you stopped right before submission.
*holds his breath with a glimmer of hope in eyes*
IIRC, the demographic questions on age, sex, etc. were at the end, so you stopped right before submission.
Things happen, I even understand why the questions were asked (and to add a little fairness such are not just about marketing, at times just knowing your customers). They were just questions I chose not to answer.
Of course a required to answer and a single page would have made more sense to me then please answer these 1 or 2 questions and then move on to a next page. This of course could be the Luddite in me.
I do not want my paranoid response to distract from the main issue of DDI, so unless somebody really triggers a reaction in me I will make no more comments about why I did not complete the poll.
Things happen, I even understand why the questions were asked (and to add a little fairness such are not just about marketing, at times just knowing your customers). They were just questions I chose not to answer.
No, it's cool - I was just saying that I don't recall that there were any further personal questions after. But I don't have an issue with your decision.
Everything in D&DI is nice so far, but none of it satisfies what I signed up for...I want to play D&D online!
Okay, getting off my soapbox now...
At best, the poll can be taken as "Maybe, someday, eventually, you'll see the VTT, Dungeon Builder, etc. Maybe, if you wish hard enough." Pfeh.
I *know* that it will happen. It happened with the Character Builder, and pretty much every tool that they have put out.
Now it won't be the majority of the posts, but it will be enough that it will discourage WotC from announcing anything until they have stuff to show. Take this thread for example.
No (or next to no) comments on the upcoming goodies he did mention :The Assassin, Familiars, and the Monk (as playtest, not preview).
And this forum *is* here. People can discuss things, there will be information continue to be released (despite what some people would have you believe), and there will still be communication between WotC and forum users.
Bill is very much caught between a rock and a hard place. They are at a point where there is simply not any information to share.
This is really poor logic here. There is always information to share. Yeah some of it may be useless or not important to some folks or perhaps not what they want to hear, but there is always information. If people don't want to hear what the information avalible then they don't have to read.
On the point about people complaining about the programming and how fast (or slow) it's going etc etc I think that WotC ought to look into hiring someone with some experience as a community relations head for an MMO. There's this thing called noise and that kind of complaining definately falls into the noise catagory. You can't ever let the fact that there is noise stop the flow of communication. Find a way to filter it out and pretend it's not there.
This to me smacks of a "let it slowly die" tactic. We'll stop talking about it and eventually people will forget about it and we'll just pretend we never even thought of offering these nifty programs. It happened with the suite of tools that they were going to offer with 3rd edition and I'll bet it happens here too. Thought I really hope it doesn't.
This predates "Mastertools" (still to be released) which predates the WotC take over by Hasbro.
As I did notice Trevor did post, however I was looking for answers and not questions. Many reading these boards clearly can notice some upset so it is hard to give Trevor credit for noticing it as news to WotC. I am trying to recall anything Trevor said that indicated that concerns were planned to be dealt with. Perhaps I should reread those few recent posts just to make sure.
A note on the survey folks.
This first survey is trying to establish a baseline among all of you based on a number of criteria. Once we have the baseline we can start to measure against something. There will be more surveys to come in the next few months that will get more specific.
It has several tracks depending on how you answer particular questions.
There are questions about D&D Insider features including open ended questions about what you would like to see but you may not see these if you go down another answer track
The demographic questions are very important and not answering them likely means your data will be tossed out of the survey. We don't use this data for any other purposes other than to establish basic customer information like 25% 18-24 year olds males play at least once per week and would play more if they had a game table
I just spoke with WotC_Trevor. He is aware of the concerns surrounding the cancellation of DIgital Insider and the change in the DDI website. He will be posting something tomorrow morning (PST). Until then, I, your NGs and the WotC DDI team ask your patience.
OK I waited, even waited longer then you set forth.
It appears the reply is I know you are concerned however there is no reason to be concerned. Just answer these questions and we will tell you something later.
The something posted hardly helped, I will however grant something was posted. *sighs*
Don't miss manage your brand again this time around by letting D&DI die a quiet death.
I just want to cross post what I said on another thread about the survey
Oh joy, make me wrong. Perhaps I should have tested the many different paths available based on my answers. I do not want to role play a poll and IMO WotC should not even consider conducting such a poll.
WOTC could not see the customers were upset looking at the fourms and are just putting up a survey now? Thay could not figure out customers were upset when they mislead the fact the DDi would not be ready at 4th ed launch?
What I want:
Clear, honest communcation. If something is going to be delayed or no progress is being made. Just let us know that. When you don't say anything, it makes it look like you are hiding something. Why is communcating with your customers seem to be so hard for WOTC? I'd be happy with "nothing new to report this week on the progress of the tools" when there is nothing new. At least they are telling us something.
Oh joy, make me wrong. Perhaps I should have tested the many different paths available based on my answers. I do not want to role play a poll and IMO WotC should not even consider conducting such a poll.
Huh?
Different paths make sense... If you are a current subscriber, obviously you need to be answering different questions than people who aren't subscribers, but might be interested in subscribing.
Jeez.
A note on the survey folks. This first survey is trying to establish a baseline among all of you based on a number of criteria. Once we have the baseline we can start to measure against something. There will be more surveys to come in the next few months that will get more specific.
I have an issue with this. No direction for months? Co'mon man! Seriously?!
So then it is fair to assume that since it took you nearly a year to get us 25% of what you promised us on release day that there is no way we'll see anything tool-wise until 2010. Because by the time you're done polling us it will be June or July of this year. That is too long without direction in any company. All we want is what you promised us. Give us that. Pick part of the 75% that is incomplete and work on it. Who cares what it is, just DO SOMETHING.
Don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate that you want to work on what we want you to work on too, but right now, you guys are so far behind, people are PO'd it's time to step up, not step back.
This goes all the back to the lies we were told about mastertools. The experience is broken promises and lack of action. For some it goes back further to TSR. We hate seeing our beloved DND fall short of what the parent company promises us. Thats all.
The demographic questions are very important and not answering them likely means your data will be tossed out of the survey. We don't use this data for any other purposes other than to establish basic customer information like 25% 18-24 year olds males play at least once per week and would play more if they had a game table
This is what I was trying to get across. It is very important consumer information. Without this they don't know who is happy and who is not. Demographics are a very important part of development and growth. Thank you for explaining it better than I.
Huh?
Different paths make sense... If you are a current subscriber, obviously you need to be answering different questions than people who aren't subscribers, but might be interested in subscribing.
Jeez.
If the path was a simple one of a current paid subscriber, past paid/unpaid subscriber or never subscribed at all I could live with the idea, not happy with it. However what was indicated and based as far as I got it appears a program decided not to ask questions to another user that I got asked. That a computer rated whom was worthy of being asked the different questions without indication that your answers would effect the next page. I can roleplay such a page after knowing this, the deception of how you answer page one (because page one does not ask about subscribed status) apparently has caused some interested user taking the survey down different paths.
The bloody survey should have been more open and as far as that goes if it required demographics as a requirement that should have also have been on page one.
Hey all. I just wanted to drop in and talk about the “Ruling Skill Challenges” article that was scheduled to be released today. If you’ve checked the calendar today, you’ll see that the article was moved to next Wednesday. There were some scheduling conflicts and it was decided to move the article to next week, but unfortunately the calendar wasn’t updated with that information until today.
I also want to apologize for the unexpected scheduling updates you’ve seen lately. While the calendar is a living document and we should expect the dates and articles to occasionally change, making changes shouldn’t hit so close to the originally scheduled release date as this Skill Challenges article did. We agree that weeks of notice would be better than days, and we’ll do everything we can to make sure we give appropriate notice when changes have to be made.
wow, *looks around confused at actual communication, and apology* Thanks?!
The problem is they've tried giving a date for the full suite before and failed to live up to it - this garnered much rage from the community that STILL lingers and will continue to linger until the tools arrive. But once bitten, twice shy as they say.
They didn't even give a date for the Character Builder when they knew they were going to release it by "the end of the month" in January. That's how skittish WotC is about releasing any sort of publication date for the rest of the D&DI tools.
So, no. I don't expect them to divulge that information.
I call BS if WotC can't deal with customers that are angry with their failure to produce they need to shut down shop. The fact is most people aren't actually mad the stuff is late never were. They are mad that the stuff was late and it was hidden from them. They were tricked into buying a product they felt was incomplete because wizards felt it would hurt sales to come clean and they were most likely right. It took a massive outcry on the forums a campaign to get the word out and many angry emails to get wizards to finally admit they were no where near the completion of any of the tools 2 months after they were supposed to be released. Stop codling the bad child.
Hey again all, sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
I’ve been reading what you’re saying concerning the DI article and D&D Insider, and I want you to know that all of this feedback you’re generating is being listened to, and is incredibly useful. In fact, to help us collect this feedback, we’ve posted up a D&D Insider survey that we’d like you to funnel your opinions into. In this survey you’ll find, among other things, points that focus on what applications you want for D&D Insider, what portions of D&D Insider you find useful, and how likely you are to use specific D&D Insider tools. If you’re interested, we definitely want to hear from you, and it should only take a few minutes. As Bill said in his article – we need to take a moment to evaluate where we want to go next, and to do that we need to fully engage you in the process.
Along with the surveys I want you to understand that we’re still dedicated to making the D&D Insider experience and tools the best that they can possibly be. This has not changed, nor do I see it changing in the foreseeable future. We still have the same great teams of people working on bringing you exactly what you want – we just want to make sure that what we’re giving you is what you want.
I urge you to continue this discussion and take a few minutes to give us your feedback and fill out the survey
Thanks for your help!
wow, *blinks* looks around once again disillusioned by WotC* just wow.
Oh joy, make me wrong. Perhaps I should have tested the many different paths available based on my answers. I do not want to role play a poll and IMO WotC should not even consider conducting such a poll.
This is a common market research practice to try and get better data by the attitudes and usage of each customer. For example if you only play D&D via Baldur's Gate we'll ask you different questions than if you play the table top RPG. The idea is to tailor the survey through paths to match your needs as a customer. It's is not meant to be a game or something.
I call BS if WotC can't deal with customers that are angry with their failure to produce they need to shut down shop. The fact is most people aren't actually mad the stuff is late never were. They are mad that the stuff was late and it was hidden from them. They were tricked into buying a product they felt was incomplete because wizards felt it would hurt sales to come clean and they were most likely right. It took a massive outcry on the forums a campaign to get the word out and many angry emails to get wizards to finally admit they were no where near the completion of any of the tools 2 months after they were supposed to be released. Stop codling the bad child.
I'll tell you what is the crown gem of my outrage. I purchased a product that did not exist. Sure $5 a month is no big deal, however, I paid for a product that I was told would exist on launch-day and have yet to see it.
Multiply that by thousands or hundred of thousands of buyers and there is a huge issue. As far as I'm concerned, it is consumer fraud.
If you were sold a DVD player and were told it would play blue-ray and HD and regular DVDs and it only played the latter, you would not only get a full refund, but the company would be liable for fraudulent sales and advertisement.
Now I doubt anyone will litigate over $5/month, in fact they are more likely to cancel their subscription, but that does not take away the fact that it we have been bamboozled.
Why does WOTC need to post a survey to figure what the customers want when all they have to do is look on there own fourms?
Yes the forums are important but we want to reach a bigger sample size to not only make the right products for those that post but also for those that don't.
WOTC could not see the customers were upset looking at the fourms and are just putting up a survey now? Thay could not figure out customers were upset when they mislead the fact the DDi would not be ready at 4th ed launch?
We want you to tell us what you want next.
What I want:
Clear, honest communcation. If something is going to be delayed or no progress is being made. Just let us know that. When you don't say anything, it makes it look like you are hiding something. Why is communcating with your customers seem to be so hard for WOTC? I'd be happy with "nothing new to report this week on the progress of the tools" when there is nothing new. At least they are telling us something.
You are right, like today we had some good news to report on Compendium Updates
I'll tell you what is the crown gem of my outrage. I purchased a product that did not exist. Sure $5 a month is no big deal, however, I paid for a product that I was told would exist on launch-day and have yet to see it.
Multiply that by thousands or hundred of thousands of buyers and there is a huge issue. As far as I'm concerned, it is consumer fraud.
If you were sold a DVD player and were told it would play blue-ray and HD and regular DVDs and it only played the latter, you would not only get a full refund, but the company would be liable for fraudulent sales and advertisement.
Now I doubt anyone will litigate over $5/month, in fact they are more likely to cancel their subscription, but that does not take away the fact that it we have been bamboozled.
Honestly I think they've covered themselves pretty well legally I find the way this has been handled deplorable and pretty much downright dishonest, but the information on what you are and aren't purchasing is out there if you scour every possible resource. So legally I'm pretty sure they are gold.
Probably. I mean they do have a monster of a legal department, I'm sure. And by now it's too late anyways. But just because they're covered doesn't mean it's not fraud. It just means that it is fraud that can't be punished via the legal system.
ohh don't get me wrong I agree 100% and I find it sad that the worlds become a place where this can be referred to by so many as a common business practice.
You are right, like today we had some good news to report on Compendium Updates
That's really nice and all, if you are a DDi subscriber.
However, I do not pay for vaporware. I did not pre-order Duke Nukem Forever, and I am really not interested in the slightest in paying for DDi until the products advertised as being available on release date in the back of my Players Handbook are available. The idea of rekindling my favourite hobby with friends overseas was largely what got me back into D&D again.
I barely post on the forums, though I lurk a lot. I own every 4e core rulebook and adventure released so far. I answered your survey. I cordially request that you answer mine, if you please. It has only three questions, and requires no cookies or demographic information for statistical purposes.
1) The D&Di Game Table is coming out:
* in 1 week
* in 1 month
* in 1 year
* with 5th edition
* never
2) We plan to update you on the status of the Game Table:
* in 1 week
* in 1 month
* in 1 year
* with 5th edition
* never
3) If we do not deliver on our revised proposed time frames, WoTC plans to:
* say nothing
* apologise profusely
* sacrifice our firstborns to Orcus
* provide a $$ rebate to those who purchased products under false pretenses on what would be available
* other (provide example) __________________________________________
I thank you for participation in this survey.
My estimation on the current state of the other tools is: They are far away from beta and WotC is unsure if it is worth it to continue devoloping the game table and the visualizer. Now we get this survey and they like to see if there is enough interest in these unfinished tools or if there are perhaps other features (like a campaign database or a better monster builder) they could implement instead of the Game Table and Visualizer.
My take on this is: Discard the Game Table (this project is too big for you as time has shown us) and concentrate on making tools that aid DMs in game preparation or players in character building and development. The Visualizer IMHO is useless without the game table, so drop that one, too.
Bump back the quality of Dragon and Dungeon to the point they were before they required a subcrition (more articles that do more than present web enhancements to your print products).
I would be happy to see these changes in a reasonable timeframe than wait another year or so for the dreaded Game Table.
PS: And people PLEASE fill out this survey regardless of the age-question. It is a very reasonable question if you do market research...
Honestly I think they've covered themselves pretty well legally I find the way this has been handled deplorable and pretty much downright dishonest, but the information on what you are and aren't purchasing is out there if you scour every possible resource. So legally I'm pretty sure they are gold.
I don't think they covered themselves legally. They had full page ads in the back of the 4th ed. core books that said you could come online and see everything DDi had to offer NOW. When they knew that the tools were not going to be ready at all. This IMO is blantent false advertising.
Plus the fact WOTC did not put any word on the main DnD page about the delay, people had to hunt for info in the message boards about the delay and WOTC did not say anything offically until two months after that.
Why can't you just come out and say what the next toll is you are working on and the progress of that? Why does WOTC need to mislead the customers all the time?
We were told they're working on finishing the Character Builder.
We've now been told they're revamping the Compendium.
Maybe the question is a false one? If they've been finishing and revamping the old tools, it's possible they don't yet know what the next tool is/will be.
now, logically, I'm thinking that, that will mean players handbook 3 will be a Ki Power focused book and that in addition to the monk, we will see other Ki powered classes, such as the Samurai, Ninja, and Sohei.
I'm also hoping that it will include the other Oriental adventures classes, such as the Shugenja (not sure if that would be Ki, Primal, or Divine, since it's all about elements), and perhaps some kind of class/Paragon Path of Void disciple.
If anyone, especially any of the wizards staff can tell me if I'm correct in any of these assumptions, it would be much appreciated.
You are right, like today we had some good news to report on Compendium Updates
And this looks really nice.
what we want to see first and foremost, is working communication in both directions. polls are good, but they only work one-way - from us to you. you can have plenty of that just browsing the DDI forums, well, mostly the worst case scenarios and bad sides, but still - that's a way of communication that is so much easier for a company to fill. there'll always be enugh people that like to express their opinions, no matter how dire or serious they are.
BUT: the other way round, did not work out at all, for over 8 months now.
we had randy, who would write like he needed to go over hot coals if he said a bit to much. we had solice, who is like a master-poker up the wotc hierarchy, but had no real options to say anything. we had dm, elf cort and mdonais seemingly accidentally hitting on some forums now and then.
at the moment there's chuck and trevor, some of the ORCs floating around, and still the occasional software developer post. this is not enough. there needs to be someone, anyone, to be just there for that: communicate with the community (ever wondered why those two words are that similar?), and being allowed to spill some beans.
imo, best suited for this would be someone like randy, solice, or any other oldtimer that was laid off. they already have some insights, they are known to the community, and they still could work under certain rules what they are and aren't allowed to spill. but the sole occupation should be a comunity liaison or community manager. which wotc does not have at ALL. vcls try to keep forums more silent on rants, and rephrase the same phrases all over again, because they don't have any choice - they have no information to tell, and no real way to ask. this is NOT ENOUGH.
---
besides from that, you know as well as we know that most people would try out every of those tools you put out.
here's a nice proposal for you games-designers: take a d3/d4
1: finish visualizer
2: finish dungeon builder
3: update bonus tools with all those nifty things people have thus far demanded and not gotten.
4: finish game table (this assumes that the dungeon builder is not necessary for this)
Maybe the question is a false one? If they've been finishing and revamping the old tools, it's possible they don't yet know what the next tool is/will be.
And even more possible that there isn't going to be a 'next tool'.
And why do we trust them, because we're adults and big people give other big people the benefit of the doubt. It's just the way of the world.I pray that WOTC takes the feedback on these boards very seriously. I trust that they do. But if they go solely on this they will be poorly advised. Look at other software products on their boards and you'll see what I mean. Pinnacle Studio is loved by most. On the Pinnacle boards they get killed. Because angry people look to vent and post, satisfied people spend time with their families or use the software they brought as they were intended to do so.
Anyway, if you won't support DDI because they haven't hit their promises I applaud you. I don't have that patience. If you jump to the conclusion these promises will never be hit I say hold off there.
And now look, the new Compendium is announced today. It looks great and it operates great. Aesthetically, it's now more like the character builder. These things take time WOTC never realized or bluffed on to aid sales. I cannot say enough that I find that shameful. But to assume things going forward are dead...why on earth would you?
Wow, you people on the boards are such a bad demographic and this is sort of what goes on for many companies. There is such sensitivity and negativity that isn't a true picture of what's out there. Everyone I speak to loves 4E, loves all the tools, pays for the services, thinks it's shameful that deadlines were missed but don't take false leaps of mistrust. They said they're still working on it. Shame on you Wotc, but I trust you until proven otherwise.
And why do we trust them, because we're adults and big people give other big people the benefit of the doubt. It's just the way of the world.I pray that WOTC takes the feedback on these boards very seriously. I trust that they do. But if they go solely on this they will be poorly advised. Look at other software products on their boards and you'll see what I mean. Pinnacle Studio is loved by most. On the Pinnacle boards they get killed. Because angry people look to vent and post, satisfied people spend time with their families or use the software they brought as they were intended to do so.
Anyway, if you won't support DDI because they haven't hit their promises I applaud you. I don't have that patience. If you jump to the conclusion these promises will never be hit I say hold off there.
And now look, the new Compendium is announced today. It looks great and it operates great. Aesthetically, it's now more like the character builder. These things take time WOTC never realized or bluffed on to aid sales. I cannot say enough that I find that shameful. But to assume things going forward are dead...why on earth would you?
well said, really it's the same few people who are persistent.
How is asking "What tool do you want us to work on next" misleading the customer??
Because it does nothing to answer the prevalent question around here?
Perhaps it would be better to substitute "obfuscation" for "misleading".
The tragedy in all this is that everyone here is on the same side, but due to whatever circumstances are causing the near-fiasco that DDi has become, the customer base is fracturing over these issues.
4e itself fractured the community (into various pro/anti/neutral camps) and has caused competitors to rise who have handled their business in a much smoother manner. At some point, the inability to produce the promised content, or failing that the inability to address the customers valid concern over the lack of promised content, will have an affect on sales of the core product.
And once you lose a customer, it is very very hard to get them back.
And why do we trust them, because we're adults and big people give other big people the benefit of the doubt.
well, it's just what happens, naturally, when the benefit of the doubt is invoked as often as has been the case with WOTC and their software past.
btw: i love 4e, but i hate the disservice they are doing to their online customers by not at all communicating. where does this put me? well, right on this board, since i want to use some of their tools, and i want to do so soon (impossible) or at least know what and when to expect. i do not hold them to dates that they did not reach, but such things are OBVIOUS beforehand, and should be communicated.
4 weeks before 4e launch, wotc MUST have known that there won't be any tools ready. or not likely ready. word from them was "-"
on the day of launch, it was clear that no tool is ready. word from them was "-"
4 weeks of the launch, it was obvious that there are no tools out yet. word from them was still "-"
same happened twice in the past, which is why people have hard times believing it will get better. the "finished" character builder with only like 2.000 minor bugs in it is a step in the right direction. still, they lack one important skill on their staff(or suits): COMMUNICATION
The mere fact they say nothing like this, leads many to believe there only concern is getting people to pay monthly fees based on what DDi "might be" in the future.
See I think this is the issue. It's a matter of trust. I think like a lot of people I got the impression that the online table top would be out around the time the game was released, because they marketed this as a feature. It was a major motivation behind my getting back into D&D after so many years.
At this point I am just glad I have folks in RL to play D&D with or I would sh**can the idea of investing any more into it. It's a great game...the best rpg I have ever seen as far as balance and playability and all. I just don't like the feeling that I am a source of revenue, not a valued part of a community that began before WoTC was an itch in some accountant's pants.
As much as I am eager to see the rest of the insider released, I understand that it takes a lot to put out a quality product. Most of us can accept that...just tell us where things stand once in a while.
As another issue (if WoTC is thinking in terms of money) I don't know anyone who is buying D&D minis for it's own game or for table top D&D. If you want to keep all those dollars from going to other mini producers, start selling them individually. Once I buy a bunch from someone else, I won't need to re-buy them from you once you come around to that idea.
I think everyone complaining about communication is a bit off. There isn't anyone here on the forums answering every question or telling us what they came up with in a meeting today or around the table at lunch; but they stick to their schedule on what previews, news articles, and playtests are going to be released.
We all wish they would have told us about the tools being delayed and in that regard they failed us. Now we want to know if the tools are coming at all? A simple yes or no would satisfy most of us. Also of everyone I play with the only times they check the website are when I tell them something new is up. Also none of them are insiders; only I am. But if they had a visualizer and a cool online tabletop; then I could play games with both my group back home and my group at college.
When I sit down to play with my group we play D&D, love it, and can't wait to get some more free time to play again.
As another issue (if WoTC is thinking in terms of money) I don't know anyone who is buying D&D minis for it's own game or for table top D&D. If you want to keep all those dollars from going to other mini producers, start selling them individually. Once I buy a bunch from someone else, I won't need to re-buy them from you once you come around to that idea.
I agree with this. Also, why buy minis when you can have the visualizer and the game table? To this end, I would say the better they get the info out, the less it would impact sales. That is a marketing issue. Now, what excel spreadsheets or company profiles is anyone looking at from WOTC that indicates whether or not they need to make a change? I know I don't have access to this privileged information and as such, try not to speak to it. Are these other companies eating WOTC's lunch? Maybe...but we don't know this for sure.
All of those people that WOTC makes your feel like $$$'s and not customers, I just don't get that. Companies exist to make money. That's a good thing. They make money they can use as capital to put out more product. Why do you care that you have to buy 7 books now? We always did, for every version. That's the fun part actually. Why wouldn't you pay a meezly $5 for online content and then drop it once you know it isn't for you? This way, you have judges something. I get if you're not doing it on principal. You're entitled to that. As I stated, I don't have the patience to wait on that. But it's silly talk all the same.
We love a game that costs more then it does to just buy a football. It's what it has always been and will always be. Why is it suddenly bad? Because forums exist and that's all. That's ridiculous. When I see PHB2 is coming I get amped. I can't wait. I don't analyze how it's yet another $30 going to WOTC. That's missing the point. It's a way to make a great game better. Jump at that and love the game more. Or don't buy it if your campaign doesn't need it. Whatever. But don't let your views that someone should or should not be getting $20-$30 from you cloud your good times.
The forums are not a true representation of the customer base.
We that post anything might be 1/10 the number of people that purchased 4th Edition (some that post here do not own 4th at all). Many first time posters in the last 8 months posted in this section because of a problem. People that do not have a problem rarely see a need to post, they are happy with what they have. Oh yes there are some that post regularly that are happy, these though are users that are members of the community that will post when they choose to.
There of course are the lurkers, those numbers could be extremely high compared to posters.
The survey I further expect has been posted to other forums and on the website somewhere.
All in all what is posted here does not reflect the actual customer base.
See it is the a$$ kissing of WotC that has to stop.
so do I count as an ass kisser for saying I have faith that they are working, and putting a 3 out of five in that vote?
While I do understand that in life not all deadlines can be met, the fact they have communicated nothing to the customers is what is tha major problem.
Ok so your mad they are no longer communicating...well people were mad at how they communicated, and you see the problme...damned no matter what. If they put out day by day what is being worked on then someone would have a problme, if they don't tell us for three months, then relase a beta of the dungeon builder...someone will have a problme...
there is no way anyone can be given a free pass on a matter as crucial as this. It doesnt take much effort to say "We are working on Game Table and at this point in time, we have no clue when the product will be finished, but it is shaping up nicely."
funny, that IS what they have been saying...
The mere fact they say nothing like this, leads many to believe there only concern is getting people to pay monthly fees based on what DDi "might be" in the future.
or they want you to pay the monthly fees to get the GREAT content so far...I am not subscribed in hopes of getting something good, I am Subscribed becuse I like Dragon Magazine
I think like a lot of people I got the impression that the online table top would be out around the time the game was released, because they marketed this as a feature.
The reason everyont thought that is WOTC came out and said "all these tools will be ready on 4th ed. launch day." Those was the words from the company. They said nothing when they knew it would not be ready.
OR
They start with the Dungeon Builder and then move to the Table Top and follow up with the Character Visualizer. I mean, what is the Table Top without a dungeon builder, and they will essentially need a dungeon builder to create the table top.
Seems simple to me, but what do I know.
I thought the character builder was done as they put out the full 30 level version.
So the next thing to be worked on is either the character viewer, dungeon buiilder, and game table. I understand the game table to be last because it incorperates all the other tools.
Why are they working on the compendium? I thought that was done as well.
Why is WOTC asking us what they should work on next? They have things they can work on.
Are they going to start asking the customers when its OK for them to go to the john, too?
i only have one thing i would like answered about when will the character visualizer and dungeon builder be launched
your requests are so much simpler than everyone else's, I agree, we should simply answer this question. /thread
thanks for the contribution.
i only have one thing i would like answered about when will the character visualizer and dungeon builder be launched
This question was answered months ago. They will be released when they are ready. Perhaps not the answer you would prefer, however it is better then being told it will be released soon. Things that were promised soon and not yet completed date back to before the initial planned release dates of the aplications. WotC has released parts now that they considered ready, they have not released PDFs coming soon.
i only have one thing i would like answered about when will the character visualizer and dungeon builder be launched
15th of Never
Wow, you people on the boards are such a bad demographic and this is sort of what goes on for many companies. There is such sensitivity and negativity that isn't a true picture of what's out there. Everyone I speak to loves 4E, loves all the tools, pays for the services, thinks it's shameful that deadlines were missed
As does everyone here you don't really see the edition wars much in the D%DI section because we all pretty much like 4 ed
but don't take false leaps of mistrust. They said they're still working on it. Shame on you Wotc, but I trust you until proven otherwise.
And why do we trust them, because we're adults and big people give other big people the benefit of the doubt. It's just the way of the world.I pray that WOTC takes the feedback on these boards very seriously. I trust that they do. But if they go solely on this they will be poorly advised. Look at other software products on their boards and you'll see what I mean. Pinnacle Studio is loved by most. On the Pinnacle boards they get killed. Because angry people look to vent and post, satisfied people spend time with their families or use the software they brought as they were intended to do so.
Anyway, if you won't support DDI because they haven't hit their promises I applaud you. I don't have that patience. If you jump to the conclusion these promises will never be hit I say hold off there.
And now look, the new Compendium is announced today. It looks great and it operates great. Aesthetically, it's now more like the character builder. These things take time WOTC never realized or bluffed on to aid sales. I cannot say enough that I find that shameful. But to assume things going forward are dead...why on earth would you?
The reason you trust is your gullible not because your an adult. Adults look to what people have done and make a decision, you trust blindly. WOTC has failed to produce repeatedly and now they won't simply say yes we intend to finish the tools. That's it that's all we are looking for, and they wont say that. That says to me were deeply considering scrapping the rest of the project. honestly I would love to hand WOTC my money but they have to do some work for it.
First decide if they are going to release the full suite of tools or not if that answer is yes then I have to wait until they are out on principal as they used those tools to promote the sale of the book and people are out money for a product they have no use for.
If no they need to put out an honest apology. Not hey I understand your ****** but if you had looked just a little harder you'd have known the stuff was going to be delayed. Stop trying to deflect the blame be adults and man up.
Fix the coercive auto renew this looks like a blatant attempt to rip people off.
Get pay pall up and running I don't trust WOTC with my CC number.
thanks forgot where I stood with WotC for a second there. you know if your not a cheerleader your a troll. Thanks for reminding me.
Read the last DDI News article - Note how mostly the article amounts to "I have nothing to say, so I'm stopping with this".
Read the Compendium Update article. - Note how it came out within 3 days of the last DDI news article.
Clearly Bill had something to say, it certainly cannot have been a surprise that DM was about to release the Compendium update information.
There are also clearly things that can be said at least monthly in a DDI News Column. Like hey that Poll could have been linked in the current one as well...
I would go so far as to say a Fortnightly DDI News Column should be well within WotC's ability to produce with meaningful content about what is going on with the existing or forthcoming tools or magazines.
The Community wants more Communication.
In their ever resistant way WotC is instead choosing less.
Or maybe it will really be the same but they will not have the burden of a scheduel to release the informaiton...curse those paying customers and their desire for regular, predictable, updates.
I just want to cross post what I said on another thread about the survey
I just took the survey myself, I think it would be nice if perhaps a summary of the results could be shared on DDI. At least that way we the customers have an idea of the feedback you are basing your assumptions on?
Alternatively though this may be asking too much, perhaps even a 'battleplan' communication as in "hey we got XYZ feedback, therefore we plan to do ABC"?
I just took the survey myself, I think it would be nice if perhaps a summary of the results could be shared on DDI. At least that way we the customers have an idea of the feedback you are basing your assumptions on?
Alternatively though this may be asking too much, perhaps even a 'battleplan' communication as in "hey we got XYZ feedback, therefore we plan to do ABC"?
Unfortunately I don't see any summary in our future. Reasons for not sharing the summary run the gammut from incomplete/incoherent results to being completely unattainable (I want it all and I wanted it yesterday). If they were to post that the majority of polling information pushed a certain direction and they didn't follow it, then we're back to WotC being the big bad corporation that doesn't care about crushing the dreams of gamers everywhere. At this point, all we can really do is hope that they pay attention to a tool that they themselves put into place to gather the information.
If you feel what you do have now isn't better then anything they've put out before, I disagree. They never had any of these online tools before. Mind you, anyone who prefers one system over another is entitled to make their own choices. But you can't dispute that 3.5 didn't have the tools that 4.0 already has and will have. These tools are hard to love in a vacuum because of the expectations that they set, but it is what it is.
If you feel they should still give you partial information, which they now admit only gets them into trouble, you need to drastically lower your expectations because it ain't gonna happen. They said as much. And mind you, I am not defending their position on this in this particular post. But if someone tells me they can't do something, it may bother me, but I don't reinvent their rules. You can't keep saying what you want is a simple request when they tell you it isn't that simple as crazy as it sounds hearing it on the other end. You aren't at WOTC HQ, you don't know what they know they can do or cannot do.
If you feel disappointed in WOTC for their poor execution and launch, that's totally valid. They screwed the pooch. But stop asking for just a little more communication when you already know it isn't coming. Now, if they ever formally announce they can't deliver on the tools they promised at any point, they'll have a revolution on their hands for certain as they should.
All I want is a yes or no answer to the question on if WOTC is still planning to put out the rest of the DDi tools as promised. Why is that such a hard question to answer for them? A simple, straght forward answer.
It's the same sort of reason a doctor can't tell you everything is going to be ok...
It's the same sort of reason a doctor can't tell you everything is going to be ok...
Then fine, tell me how it is but at least fricking TELL ME SOMETHING. I'd rather know one way or the other instead of feeling like I'm being mislead all the time.
If you are going to use that as an example, its the doctors responsiblity to tell a patent of theres what is going on, not keep them guessing. Same thing here.
Currently i live in a small town and the nearest Gaming store is over a hour and half away, and i have to special order books if i want one. About once every two months i drive just over three hours to take part in a local gaming store game day. Part of the problem is i dont work normal hours as my days off and schedule changes often.
So i bought the 4 th edition because it would mean increase play time for me. However with the amount of time it taking mmorpg are looking like a better investing for my play time.
ps. No matter how old you are you should aways schedule some type of play time, be it with yor kids, friends play poker, hiking with the dog and wife or Hacking and slashing some poor kobolds with stranges
Then fine, tell me how it is but at least fricking TELL ME SOMETHING. I'd rather know one way or the other instead of feeling like I'm being mislead all the time.
Read trevor's post that I have quoted in my "Survey" sticky at the top of the forum.
Trevor says "we’re still dedicated to making the D&D Insider experience and tools the best that they can possibly be. This has not changed, nor do I see it changing in the foreseeable future".
To me, that seems pretty clear that they are still planning on bringing out the rest of the tools that they originally had planned.
If you are looking for dates, well, I doubt that we will be getting any dates anytime soon. The tools are to far away from being completed (a guess on my part) for them to say when they might be with any sort of accuracy.
Trevor says "we’re still dedicated to making the D&D Insider experience and tools the best that they can possibly be. This has not changed, nor do I see it changing in the foreseeable future".
To me, that seems pretty clear that they are still planning on bringing out the rest of the tools that they originally had planned.
this is not what you seem to be reading into it.
it does not say that they consider those tools still a part of their plan - it's just generic "insider will get better" - whether this be in updates for builder, compendium and new tools, or just some of those is NOT stated. as one can clearly see on the ddi page, no dungeon builder, visualizer, gametable is part of the current ddi experience. so if they make the current ddi experience the best it can possibly be, does not necessarily mean they add something new. that's just your personal optimism. but this statement is just about - nowhere.
Or it could mean they are still planning to bring out the tools.
Either way, not very clear, IMO.
Guys, WOTC announced that they realized they couldn't hit deadlines and as such, would not make any announcements until they have something concrete to day. If you feel mislead by them because they didn't deliver on their promises, they did perform shamefully so it's hard to debate.
No one cares that they missed the schedule really seriously happens all the time what people care about is that they did very little to inform the consumer about the change and many of those consumers bought into 4th edition because of those tools.
If you feel what you do have now isn't better then anything they've put out before, I disagree. They never had any of these online tools before. Mind you, anyone who prefers one system over another is entitled to make their own choices. But you can't dispute that 3.5 didn't have the tools that 4.0 already has and will have. These tools are hard to love in a vacuum because of the expectations that they set, but it is what it is.
I have to disagree here dungeon and dragon were both available before. D20 srd was available for use free. There were constant free web enhancements that have all but disappeared the bonus tools are really not that usable the encounter builder would be great if it actually gave you stat blocks and such but as is it's really not much better than looking at the level by level index in the back of the MM. I didn't get to try the monster creator so I can't comment on it. The character builders great and all but its really the only progress we have and Ive been using a Java one for months that works fine.
If you feel they should still give you partial information, which they now admit only gets them into trouble, you need to drastically lower your expectations because it ain't gonna happen. They said as much. And mind you, I am not defending their position on this in this particular post. But if someone tells me they can't do something, it may bother me, but I don't reinvent their rules. You can't keep saying what you want is a simple request when they tell you it isn't that simple as crazy as it sounds hearing it on the other end. You aren't at WOTC HQ, you don't know what they know they can do or cannot do.
I know the squeakiest wheel gets the oil so contrary to popular belief if you don't let company's know your expectations and the consequences of not meeting them on an almost constant basis they ignore them. When I lived in Dallas I had Comcast as my cable provider it was great when it worked but service was the worst Ive ever encountered. Your service was down once every other month and when you called the answer would always be we will have someone out to fix it over a week later. If you talk and talk and talk and talk and yell and talk and remind the guy that you can have a guy out to get you service for some other company in 2 days you'll have someone there tomorrow. This is how it works in reality if you want something you waste your time fighting to get it. I really really want this to work but in leu of that I just want a straight answer. yes or no
If you feel disappointed in WOTC for their poor execution and launch, that's totally valid. They screwed the pooch. But stop asking for just a little more communication when you already know it isn't coming. Now, if they ever formally announce they can't deliver on the tools they promised at any point, they'll have a revolution on their hands for certain as they should.
Poor communication got them into this so I'll continue to ask for better thank you. Its a totally valid request and its not clear that they won't eventually wise up. If they cant make the rest of the tools that's fine I won't be happy about it but being honest and up front about it will save them some not all but some of the fallout, and quite possibly salvage the trust of some of the community. I figure the reason they aren't saying is because they would likely lose some of the subscribers that are currently supporting hat they feel to be an incomplete product in hopes that they can make it look profitable enough to finish. Eventually though those folks will become disillusioned with the whole thing and most likely stop doing business with WotC permanently.
If they are still working on the tools there absolutely no reason not to just say yes were still planning on getting out the rest of the tools. so the answer to our question is that they are either reconsidering or they have already scrapped the project.
K
Long before I wasted my money (and time) on the core 4th edition books, I read about how the grand idea was to create this system based around these powerful online tools that would revolutionize tabletop playing that would make 3rd edition obsolete...that was 3 years ago? Really? I mean REALLY?
K
No it was a year and a half ago. And they did not say that the reason for the change was becauser the digital tools would render 3rd edition obsolete, or if they did I certainly don't ever recall it. In fact over half of the digial tools are in fact setting neutral, incidently the three tools that are not ready yet.
No it was a year and a half ago. And they did not say that the reason for the change was becauser the digital tools would render 3rd edition obsolete, or if they did I certainly don't ever recall it. In fact over half of the digial tools are in fact setting neutral, incidently the three tools that are not ready yet.
Do not really want to argue the timeline, however there was an indication that at least 2 years before the Grand 4th Edition announcement at GenCon that WotC started working on the 4th Edition. The work in progress clearly appears to be about three years old, work on the DDI however appears more like 1.5 to 2 years.
The outsourced company Radiant Machine to do the programing was hired, it however appears to no longer exists as a new company of the same name appears to have a web domain in that name. All indications are even if Radiant Machine still exists as a company that WotC hired, that WotC started to take development back in house (likely because the outsourced programing did not meet set goals timely).
WotC has clearly indicated that they will not support 3rd Edition, including breaking a promise concerning PDFs. They have indicated that Game Table when it comes out will be rule neutral so yes any version of D&D (or other RPG) can be played with it. It however been indicated the use of the built in interfaces will default to 4th Edition rules. This means classes, races, feats and skills, etc., however the DM can set up game table to play checkers, chess or Go, etc.
WotC started to take development back in house (likely because the outsourced programing did not meet set goals timely).
Anyone else think this is pretty funny considering WOTC "timely" development on the tools.
I really enjoyed the Alternity Setting and some of his other stuff.
You gotta wonder what it must be like to work for an organization though that beta max's your cool creative ideas.
Look at it this way. WotC seems to be marching in retreat, all banner waving and drum beating to the contrary.
They used to have a hand in just about every genre you can imagine. We had d20 Modern, Horror, Science Fiction...I haven't heard boo about any of those ideas or genres receiving any attention any time in the near future.
We had scads of different settings for D&D. Mostly on hold or gone.
We used to have a game company with big ideas about a virtual table top. I am hoping against hope that this great idea isn't fading into the wind as so many people seem to think that it is...what a shame that would be.
Dragon and Dungeon magazine no longer in print...what a shame that is. There are now three indie fantasy e-zines that produce very good content which offer both pdf downloads AND print copies of their magazines. At least one of these is double the regular size of Dungeon.
What an opportunity for someone outside of WotC to grab the brass ring, come up with a solid rules set and start dominating each table top rpg genre in turn until they finally topple Wizards and D&D...sorry D&D...right out of the top spot for fantasy genre table top RPGs.
There are alot of very creative and talented people out there.
I have no doubts that someone else is going to step into the gap very soon.
WOTC if they do not make the agreed upon tools release as they
stated when tring to sell 4e.
Please let me know as I would be intrested to see what people
think at this point.
I want to know, would anybody else here support a legal action Against
WOTC if they do not meet the agreed upon tools release as they
stated when tring to sell 4e.
Please tell me you are jokeing...
Please tell me you are jokeing...
that right there is why they don't talk much. This sort of talk will make them get even MORE quiet.
They can neither affirm or deny, so people assume they are dragging us on.
I want to know, would anybody else here support a legal action Against
WOTC if they do not meet the agreed upon tools release as they
stated when tring to sell 4e.
Please let me know as I would be intrested to see what people
think at this point.
To take legal action, you'd have to show that they caused you financial or emotional injury. Good luck with that.
GMforPowergamers
Member
Please tell me you are jokeing...
No , It is about time WOTC learns that people will not settle for
companies LIEING to sell there products.
( I think a Class-Action suit would do )
Companies need to know that they can and will be held accountable.
As for what you said, no they have done this twice before already
with past products, so there is no reaseon to believe that they will
do as they have said and promised this time.
sorry but I will not be screwed over by them again.
No, all you have to prove is unfair business practices in the sell of a product.
As for what you said, no they have done this twice before already
with past products, so there is no reaseon to believe that they will
do as they have said and promised this time.
sorry but I will not be screwed over by them again.
Then seriously stop buying the product and move on. The fact is what they have done is unethical and wrong but they have not broke any actual laws that I'm aware of. The tools aren't technically required to play so they have sold you a "complete" product. There's no case. Now do I believe they used the tools to promote the product in an unfair and dishonest way? Sure. Am I ****** off about it? You becha. Can I prove this to be the case in a court of law? Not in the slightest.
Originally Posted by nexusvalhees
Then seriously stop buying the product and move on. The fact is what they have done is unethical and wrong but they have not broke any actual laws that I'm aware of. The tools aren't technically required to play so they have sold you a "complete" product. There's no case. Now do I believe they used the tools to promote the product in an unfair and dishonest way? Sure. Am I ****** off about it? You becha. Can I prove this to be the case in a court of law? Not in the slightest.
Its not just about whether it is a complete product, its about the claim
that the product is enhanced by the addition of something extra, that
you did not get, but implied that you would get.
What about the people that have payed for D&DI at 5$ or more a month
expecting to get these tools.
Would you be more likely to buy a car plain or one that the salesman
added better tires and cool 6 disc CD changer too.
How mad would you be if the salesman lied and the tires where
standard tires and CD changer was used.
As far as court goes, they have started to take adim view of companies
claiming this or that and not living up to what they say.
Unfair business practices are against the law and they (WOTC)
Have overvalued there products by oftering the tools and then not making them.
Many people bought the 4e books because of the expected tools.
All I am saying is that this time WOTC has said that they where going to
make these tools and this time I am going to make sure they do!.
They have also commited false avertising, just look in the back of any
of the 4e core books and look at the full page ad there.
I guess a modified (lowered) sub price in light of the additional tools being further off than originally thought could be a good idea to claw back some form of trust.
The price is already lower than it was going to be with the full tools honestly 60 a year isn't bad for what they are offering. I'd just really like some indication that they are going to continue developing the rest of the advertised tools.
Watch it talking about the legal stuff. I mentioned a couple of things like other posters did here and I got banned for a few days.
Hmm legal stiff and getting banned, I did not experience that last time the Class action discussion came up. Of course it can depend some of words typed.
A Class action does require a group of people that in this case believe they were tricked into purchase of 4th for the promise of online gaming. Oh this class exists, however DDI was always offered as an added feature that could be purchased and not required.
Thus emotional or economic damage is low to none when considered by a "reasonable person".
The most likely net result of a class action mounted would be attorneys of the class would seek in settlement their costs and some relief for the class (often if they win at all it would be in some form of a credit to purchase WotC products) and WotC would need to expend more funds to legal to defend and perhaps win, leaving less funds for the purpose of the business making gaming products.
My overall assessment of a class action is that it would do more harm and little if any good for the aggrieved class of people. Such an action will not extract punishment on individuals that might have lied in such a way to promote sales, it will not put any in jail, it will not get the class a cash refund, all it will do is clog courts, pay some attorneys and possible end WotC as a company.
I have watched class actions, even been a part of some, with the type of damage claims here IMO such an action would be a waste of time, money and effort.
There again the US Postal Service could use more mail, so they could get more bulk mail to send out seeking the class, then communicating with the class. There is not enough damage (if any) to make sense to do a class action. No one died, no one paid for DDI that was planned for, all the class has is paying for a few pages in books telling about the online interface (for a fee) and their belief of the ads that by purchase they would get DDI access.
DDI was never promised as part of 4th Edition, it was always offered as a gaming tool for fee.
So short of the ads, maybe .03 USD the claim for emotional distress is all that remains. In my view if someone suffered emotional distress by not being able to pay for DDI on June 6th to require treatment or had trauma, they already required treatment for prior reasons.
I want to know, would anybody else here support a legal action Against
WOTC if they do not make the agreed upon tools release as they
stated when tring to sell 4e.
Please let me know as I would be intrested to see what people
think at this point.
I think that it is a horrible idea and you would just be wasting your money on legal fees assuming you could find a lawyer who would even take the case.
you cannot go and sue kelloggs just because you can't jump as high as tony the tiger after eating their frosted flake cereals. sueing someone because their ad was a bit optimistic is not really a good option you have.
as far as i'm aware of the us-legal system, there are also such things as pre-trials (don't know the exact word) whether a case is realy worth to be brought before a judge. this would never happen with such a claim.
you cannot go and sue kelloggs just because you can't jump as high as tony the tiger after eating their frosted flake cereals. sueing someone because their ad was a bit optimistic is not really a good option you have.
Preliminary trial in some cases, not all.
As case action if I recall correctly requires a hearing in Federal Court to in part determine if such a class exists that have a valid claim for injuries. It almost has to be Federal if the issue crosses state boundaries, though I guess it might be possible to have an in state class action handled by state court.
The appeal process all a request to the USSC on the claim of error in finding in fact or interpretation of law. A claim of error does not mean one has occurred, just all that is required to use appeal process. Last I checked to file to the Supreme count the filing fee was 10,000.00 USD. All this means is paperwork will be looked at, the Court might choose not to hear the case and lower court ruling stands. The cost of getting that far along can easily be over 250,000.00 and likely more.
With damages at perhaps .03 USD per member of the class, which does not include all that purchased the books, the legal costs would exceed the reward should the fragile case win in any court.
Oh people can claim a higher amount in damage that would make the suit worth more money, however suing for the price of a book (which would tend to be the most that one could seek, excepting emotional stress) would make the amount sued for higher. There is no way any reasonable court would rule you are entitled to a full refund because DDI did not exist. The books provide a lot of content and none of it requires DDI in order to use.
While a suit clearly can be brought, there is little merit to it. It would be a waste of resources in so many ways and clearly would not get DDI fully operational any sooner.
The US system does allow people to sue because they are mad, it however will not grant them a win because they were mad.
Emotional distress gets a little more involved, however if such a class exists at all to the degree a claim for damages exist at all, the legal fees would be more then likely awarded.
Also such a case could drag on for 15 years or more, when WotC will likely be putting out 7th or 8th Edition if they still own D&D.
It is clearly obvious that the progress on the tools is behind schedule by quite some margin. At this stage we want to be clear about the things we as customers would like, helping WoTC come to a clear decision what their next project should be.
Get over yourself. So there was a muck up. It's over, it's done. WotC apologized and they are trying to make amends.
Besides, isn't there a statute of limitations anyways? This "argument" is over a year old... If you really felt WotC falsely advertised their product, you should have sent them their books back on June 6 2007 and asked for a refund.
Can we end this lame legal discussion and get back to the topic at hand?
Get over yourself. So there was a muck up. It's over, it's done. WotC apologized and they are trying to make amends.
Besides, isn't there a statute of limitations anyways? This "argument" is over a year old... If you really felt WotC falsely advertised their product, you should have sent them their books back on June 6 2007 and asked for a refund.
I agree there is no point to legal action. But I feel WOTC has not tryed to make amends at all. Because they have not kept up info on the progress of the tools. They have gone silent just like it was when 4th came out.
Also the 4th ed books came out on June 6, 2008, not 2007, so its still less then a year old.
I think it's hilarious people are evening considering legal action. Ha!
Get over yourself. So there was a muck up. It's over, it's done. WotC apologized and they are trying to make amends.
Besides, isn't there a statute of limitations anyways? This "argument" is over a year old... If you really felt WotC falsely advertised their product, you should have sent them their books back on June 6 2007 and asked for a refund.
Can we end this lame legal discussion and get back to the topic at hand?
The statute of limitations for most civil cases is 3 years, unless the claim is against a municipality (in which case it normally runs 30 to 90 days). There are exceptions that can extend the time.
As far as trying to start a legal action in my view is foolish and in my opinion will only earn more money for WotC legal department, the chances of any reward to plaintive is so low that the plaintive attorney will earn nothing on contingency fee, though they might bill by the hour instead.
I want WotC to spend money on the game, not legal issues.
Back to topic, hmm no information and no more DI to discuss until plans change again.
Was there something in the DI release you wanted to discuss?
all the tools they said they would.
As for the ad, its clearly states that on-line game play would be
possible with D&DI and that has not be done, just look at the back
of your books ( last page in the book) .
I can not beleive that you people would just roll over if they
do not finish the tools again, as I said I have been thru this
twice already, how many times do you think it should happen.
Also I said, I only wanted this IF they did not do as the ad says!
When I can play D&D on-line then WOTC will have made amends.
So if no legal action, how do we get what we paid for.
Also the 4th ed books came out on June 6, 2008, not 2007, so its still less then a year old.
I stand corrected! Thanks! I feel like my campaign has been going on longer than a year. Ha.
not to mention I'd (personally) feel like a scumbag for trying to sue over this, punishing a company for attempting to go further. They aren't scamming us, they even had DDI free for 4 months, no one was tricked into paying for this product.
I can not beleive that you people would just roll over if they
do not finish the tools again, as I said I have been thru this
twice already, how many times do you think it should happen.
Look, I was in the same boat as everyone else that bought 4th Edition on release. I showed up to wizards.com and expected to find a full suite of tools, and even get a game going without my normal group online.
That didn't happen. I was upset.
Since then though, I think we've all come to understand where WotC is. And no amount of *****ing or legal action is going to change that.
The best we can do at this point is voice our criticism and concern about the current state of affairs. Voice how you see D&D Insider shaping up and what strides WotC can take in the months and years to come.
and at this point three strikes and your out.
I have never post in the forums until now, you can check,
I am a programmer so I know what is possible and I will
keep this up untill WOTC does what they said.
Look, I don't care what google said, I care what WOTC said
and at this point three strikes and your out.
I have never post in the forums until now, you can check,
I am a programmer so I know what is possible and I will
keep this up untill WOTC does what they said.
Well, we live in a capitalistic society. The best way to voice your opinion is with your dollar. Stop buying WotC products if you are unhappy with WotC products. There are tons of other RPGs out there (Paizo) that would love to have your dollar.
Look, I don't care what google said, I care what WOTC said.
legally speaking, I'm trying to establish a precedent to support my case :P
Look, I don't care what google said, I care what WOTC said
and at this point three strikes and your out.
I have never post in the forums until now, you can check,
I am a programmer so I know what is possible and I will
keep this up untill WOTC does what they said.
*blink* You are years late in trying to get WotC to do what does what they said (Mastertools for example).
To harp on a point that has little to no legal base will only make you look like a distraction that soon no one will pay attention to except perhaps ORCs for deletion. There is no legal case that stands almost any chance of sucess.
Missing things, I bring up from time to time, however it is not my mission to only post about broken promises.
A mission poster is worst, IMO, then the average troll which generally do not add anything of value to the discussion. Stop your mission, discuss other things, as a programmer perhaps post ideas you have about speeding the process. Do not be a distraction.
DDI is a seperate product even in the back of books
Yes, they are seprate. But if you look at those ads in the back of the core 4th ed books, it is pretty clear they promised that all those tools were already up and running at the time of the core books relase.
Pretty clear false advertising if you ask me.
It's like saying the advertisement for the movie, "The Watchmen," is false advertisement since it will never be released.
Discussions like this are so deconstructive towards the whole project, talking about this is just going to make the people more tight lipped. I really can't see what you're trying to achieve.
they have been advertising their print product, as they have done with all their print products: as just the books. the ads in the back of dmg/phb just tell you to go check it out. while there is a mention of you being able to play online then in the ads, you are never required to buy something you don't like. ddi was no official selling point in their ads for 4e. it's just their promises and the word of some of the devs that they had given at ddxp07, gencon07, ddxp08.
clearly, broken promises are bad. but they in no way constitute false advertising.
Yes, they are seprate. But if you look at those ads in the back of the core 4th ed books, it is pretty clear they promised that all those tools were already up and running at the time of the core books relase.
Pretty clear false advertising if you ask me.
Let me try it this way.
The books went to printers at least two and likely three months before release.
It is possible when the final edit (which has had corrections since) was sent they believed they were still on target ("belief is error") so it was sent out with the ad.
The ad says pay us more money and you will have cool things, they were wrong as we all know that the cool things were not ready (only one part, not counting the ezines was active June 6th, and that did not last long). They did not charge you the 15 because it was not ready. They admitted that they did not live up to the ad they could not change.
Unhappy I can understand, there are no damages because you did not pay when you purchased the books that DDI was included. Was the ad false, of course it was, however a false ad by itself does not cause damages.
Would they, PR, have handled things better some of the anger would have been tamped down before it started. You still have the right to be upset that you can not pay WotC 15 a month to play online, however you can play online already and in some cases it does not cost as much as WotC did not get paid.
Anyone that believes all ads will provide user best results are setting themselves up for disappointment that has no good legal base for lawsuit. As I indicated before any case has almost no chance of surviving, because all in all there is little to no harm. The books are stand alone, online gaming already existed so the only damage one could claim is that WotC online gaming did not exists (for which you did not pay for).
I want to know, would anybody else here support a legal action Against
WOTC if they do not make the agreed upon tools release as they
stated when tring to sell 4e.
Please let me know as I would be intrested to see what people
think at this point.
I would not support such action. I'm not a very litigiously minded person. Yes, they defrauded their customers and yes, that irritates me. But if WOTC falls through on the tools, I will simply stop buying their products. I have plenty of gaming options. Paizo Publishing is creating a RPG system that makes all of my 3.5 books still useful. It is simple enough because I don't have nearly the amount of $$$ invested in 4th as I do 3.5.
I also think that if people have such a grievance that litigation is on the forefront of their mind, a public, organized, and vocal boycott would be better suited and probably far more effective in getting your point across,. WOTC is protected by their parent company, who has a legal department that eats small children for the fun of it. You'd be a fool to think that they couldn't weasel there way out of anything less than criminal charges.
As for me, until they come out and actually say that they no longer intend to release the tools, I will hold on to whatever hope I have left, misplaced or not and continue to support 4e and DDI.
Let me try it this way.
The books went to printers at least two and likely three months before release.
It is possible when the final edit (which has had corrections since) was sent they believed they were still on target ("belief is error") so it was sent out with the ad.
The ad says pay us more money and you will have cool things, they were wrong as we all know that the cool things were not ready (only one part, not counting the ezines was active June 6th, and that did not last long). They did not charge you the 15 because it was not ready. They admitted that they did not live up to the ad they could not change.
Unhappy I can understand, there are no damages because you did not pay when you purchased the books that DDI was included. Was the ad false, of course it was, however a false ad by itself does not cause damages.
Would they, PR, have handled things better some of the anger would have been tamped down before it started. You still have the right to be upset that you can not pay WotC 15 a month to play online, however you can play online already and in some cases it does not cost as much as WotC did not get paid.
Anyone that believes all ads will provide user best results are setting themselves up for disappointment that has no good legal base for lawsuit. As I indicated before any case has almost no chance of surviving, because all in all there is little to no harm. The books are stand alone, online gaming already existed so the only damage one could claim is that WotC online gaming did not exists (for which you did not pay for).
Look I see that people don't want to get involved in this, fine but
I will not let it go this time, Its not like I have not thought about this for
some time, I have been on the forums for years, I just never post.
But if know one will do anything this time I will.
I have the money and time too do this.
I will not be posting anymore, thanks to all, Bye.
Ok, the ads don't say they will be ready. But I do remember seeing a youtube video with someone from WOTC saying that all the tools would be ready on launch day. A totally false statement by the company.
yeah, but you have to keep the date of those interviews in mind - that were interviews by gamerzero, at gencon 07. would you trust any software company to announce a date in 10-12 months, and be actually ready on date without bugs? why do people kepe insisting on those stupid dates?
it's far more important how WOTC handled thoses dates - not at all. no updates to the given dates, no further given dates. this is the part where i can't take their digital business serious. missing deadlines is a given, especially with their track record and them taking development inhouse with gamers first, programmers second. but everyone can announce and renounce dates, that's not even very hard. wotc is just so afraid of their failures, that they fail all over again, and again, and again...
Look I see that people don't want to get involved in this, fine but
I will not let it go this time, Its not like I have not thought about this for
some time, I have been on the forums for years, I just never post.
But if know one will do anything this time I will.
I have the money and time too do this.
I will not be posting anymore, thanks to all, Bye.
sorry to hear you wont be posting, I was simply trying to debate your basis of argument. But if you'd rather hit the mute button, so be it.
Look I see that people don't want to get involved in this, fine but
I will not let it go this time, Its not like I have not thought about this for
some time, I have been on the forums for years, I just never post.
But if know one will do anything this time I will.
I have the money and time too do this.
I will not be posting anymore, thanks to all, Bye.
Godspeed, Don Quixote. Keep tilting at those windmills.
Godspeed, Don Quixote. Keep tilting at those windmills.
Don't Insult Don Quijote
I think the realising of the rest of the products (the more expected as they all always have known) supposes a big risk for them. The problem they have now is that they already know that they have been cheating their customers, and now they are trying to calm us down with unconclusive answers, that the community understand depending on the faith on them (quite bad as I've seen for the posts).
It's just a guess, of course I can be mistaken, but is the only answer I understand after reading their answers, I as a costumer feel cheeted by them, I bought their books but still don't have what they promised me in the cover of them. Of course they won't get my money until I see that they accomplish what they promised.
The web thing is simply taking far more time then they expected. Again, shame on them for it. But don't jump to illogical conclusions based on the irrational drivel of those that post here. And don't jump to illogical conclusions because part of their launch isn't working out. I mean, if you read these boards, a lot of people are complaining because they gave WOTC money. That should tell you that the company is doing what business' should be doing...pulling in money.
*edit found a more relevant thread, but jesus learn how to design a survey. *edit
They just embarked on a new version of a game that is selling off the hook, as are all the periphery products. You shouldn't think they are doing badly. You see it through muck colored glasses. Their company isn't driven by the disappointment of those who post. If so, they'd be struggling as badly as you think they are and when they went away, you'd lament the loss of a great game you had to pay all that money to play. You're just getting caught up in the undercurrent of these boards. If they were struggling, you'd see it in the books. Missed releases dates, poorly edited versions, poorly designed classes, races, powers & items, etc...
The web thing is simply taking far more time then they expected. Again, shame on them for it. But don't jump to illogical conclusions based on the irrational drivel of those that post here. And don't jump to illogical conclusions because part of their launch isn't working out. I mean, if you read these boards, a lot of people are complaining because they gave WOTC money. That should tell you that the company is doing what business' should be doing...pulling in money.
Yes books are selling great I don't think this will drag WotC under or D&D for that matter. But this project has lost money for around 3 quarters now. I doubt Hasbro is very happy about that every project should support itself, and this one is bringing in at most half of what the projected income was. I doubt it's nearly that much as many won't sign up for various reasons. (see lack of full tools, poor PR and communication, ridiculous auto renew, lack of pay pall.) If your Hasbro you have way to many other products selling way to well. You have to be thinking hard on spending another dime on a failure of that level. As they can't come out and say hey were going to finish the tools the only way I can logically interpret it is that they are reconsidering the investment and trying to salvage what they can of the project. at the end of the day they have to show profit to the shareholders. The survey is pretty much a step in that exact direction. Questions they have to ask themselves are.
1) How much profit can we get for what we already have and can update and refine with minimal investment.
2) How much more can we get to with a full release
3) How much more can we get by redirecting this investment in a different way.
4) is 2 or 3 more than 1 + said investment if so which is greater
Don't get me wrong I really want this to succeed I just don't see it happening. My optimism levels ran out long ago, and I just want to salvage what they have now. But I can't do that on principal until they act like adults and make a genuine effort to communicate in an open an honest format, and fix the problems they currently have on many levels with the subscription.
WoTC? Come on. You're talking about a company that has never had any experience in making computer games or relevant online applications, to make a cool internet 'tabletop' application.
The ads to me were like a Quake noob saying he could frag anyone in a Deathmatch. Naturally he'll get pwned big time.
I never had any faith that WoTC could do anything it promised D&Di-wise.
I was amazed enough that they actually had decent content for Dragon, Dungeon, and more amazed that the Character Builder and Compendium were actually usable, not some half-assed utility that wasted your time more than helping you.
As for the recession, that's rather recent. Unless you postulate precognitive wage cuts dissuading the programming team's interest in the project it's irrelevant to the delays that preceded it.
1. There won't be legal action taken. There isn't any basis for it. You won't find a lawyer who will take this case, as you haven't actually bought that product.
2. WE WANT SOME ANSWERS!!! Start with "Are you still going to release the other tools you said we'd have?"
3. Some stuff going on is a little suspicious. If you want to relieve our suspicions please give us something to work with.
Thats all.
So the murder-suicide before the release was responsible for all the delays which prevented a timely release?
Ah, the insensitive and uninformed variety. Glad to meet you!
For my part, I really hope they cancelled the visualizer and the game table, so that they can focus on making tools that can be finished and that aid me in preparing my games (a dungeon builder, a treasure generator, etc.). I don't want to wait another year for the next DDI tool and I think anyone who wants to play online with his friends so desperately already does so with other applications.
Please WotC, give us answers to these questions so the endless speculations and rants in this forum can stop...
Ah, the insensitive and uninformed variety. Glad to meet you!
With all due respect to the deceased, you're the one who brought the topic up literally months later, and failed to quote the part of my post where I did correct the false impression you gave of the timing involved. In addition you were the one who brought up the strawman argument of the recession being to blame for the DDI problems.
Under the circumstances I fail to see where I am either insensitive or uninformed.
Please WotC, give us answers to these questions so the endless speculations and rants in this forum can stop...
The thing is, until WOTC backs what they say, I for one will not belive what they say.
When they first said the tools were delayed TWO MONTHS after 4th came out, we had to wait a bit for more info. They mislead us on the relase of the tools.
Then WOTC started the digital insider articles. In that they said they would concentrate one one tool at a time, starting with the character builder. Then they would work on something else, whatever tool was closest to being finished next.
Now WOTC seems to have no idea what to do next, putting out surveys instead of working on the next tool. Once again WOTC goes back on the promise of working on the next tool. Once again they mislead the customers.
So excuse me if I have no trust whatsoever in whatever comes out of WOTC's mouth.
Why they can't just answer yes or no if they plan on going ahead with the other tools is beyond me. If they delay telling the customers it will come accross as misleading. So I would think at this point WOTC would want to be up front with the customers, but it looks to me like they don't care about customer relations at all.
Officially, we're not releasing any firm dates for projects, especially ones that are still a little ways off. In the past we have over-promised and under-delivered and we don't want that to happen again. Even if we come out with some great stuff, it leaves people disappointed about the missed deadline, and we'd rather not disappoint you all.
DDi, as a whole, is continuing to move forward. The plan is to roll out one application at a time, ensuring that each is solid before moving forward to the next app. We are aiming for high-quality applications and "just getting them out there" isn't an option. We want to do things right, and we want to put out the kinds of products that players will find useful and enjoyable. Right now we're in the "getting the Character Builder and Compendium solid" phase. Once we're confident that it is stable and will continue to be stable moving forward, you will start to hear more about the next project.
Nice. Now you guys may get more info even though they are saying here that it's coming but they cannot say when yet and give a very good reason why they cannot. Again, if you feel mislead or that the launch took longer then they said it was, no one disputes that. Now though, it's really time to listen rather than talk. This is all that's out there. And now a moderator has stepped in to get you the info you all crave. If he can't, you know why.
While I appreciate the message from a couple of WotC people, the part that is missing is what is worring me. I have no doubt that DDI will continue and things will be added to it over time. That is, more flash tools and things like that. What concerns me at this time is all they talk about are "applications". I have been in situations such as these. It feels to me from an outsider looking in, that there is a real effort here to not give any specifics on what those applications are. That is the worrisome bit. No where in any of those statements does it say something to the effect of:
After the Character Builder and Compendium is as complete as we would like it to be, we shall then decide to work on The Visualizer, The Gametable, or the Wizzybang OMG feature.
Instead, they have removed all details from their messages and their website. This tells me that they are "playing it safe" now and that these applications are in fact, in danger of being cut. They may be replaced with other applications, but those may not come to light.
Now call that Doom and Gloom or whatever you want. I have seen it happen before from WotC as well as other companies (some I have worked for).
Now we need to take a moment, evaluate where we are and where we want to go next.
I think this from Bill's last insider is the key to the discontent. When you say your evaluating where we want to go next when there already was a well established road map (Character Builder -> Visualizer -> Dungeon Builder -> Game Table) it makes people think that road map is changing.
I think a lot of people are dying for WotC to hit the end of the above road (I know I am) and comments like this raise the question of "Will we *ever* get there?" instead of "When will we get there?"
I can appreciate the mantra of under promising and over delivering. It's a good philosophy to work by. It makes you look good. I'm glad that ORC_Tao chimed in with "DDi, as a whole, is continuing to move forward." but I think that WotC should think about posting something like this coming from the mouth (or fingers) of someone like Bill someplace more out in the open. Like perhaps one more installment of D&D Insider. I think something like "We are sticking to the original Road Map but we're not going to put that on a time table." would go far to reassure people (or at least some people). I know I feel better seeing ORC_Tao say it. I'd feel even better if it were coming from Bill and if it had been on the front page I wouldn't have had to dig through 9 pages of forum posts to find it. That's something a lot of people will not bother doing.
So that said, when I read:
Officially, we're not releasing any firm dates for projects, especially ones that are still a little ways off. In the past we have over-promised and under-delivered and we don't want that to happen again. Even if we come out with some great stuff, it leaves people disappointed about the missed deadline, and we'd rather not disappoint you all.
The plan is to roll out one application at a time, ensuring that each is solid before moving forward to the next app. We are aiming for high-quality applications and "just getting them out there" isn't an option. We want to do things right, and we want to put out the kinds of products that players will find useful and enjoyable. Right now we're in the "getting the Character Builder and Compendium solid" phase. Once we're confident that it is stable and will continue to be stable moving forward, you will start to hear more about the next project.
I hear "Ok guys, we screwed up. We set deadlines and missed them. We won't risk doing this again. We also won't risk poorly communicating again. So here's the story. We are going to wrap up the Char builder and the compendium. After that, we'll move on to the next one. When we know more, you'll know more."
You hear "Ok guys, we screwed up. We set deadlines and missed them. We won't risk doing this again. We also won't risk poorly communicating again. So here's the story. We are going to wrap up the Char builder and the compendium. After that, who knows if anything is even around the corner or not. We may just scrap the whole thing."
I guess the difference is I will base everything I know on what they tell me. You're more comfortable reading into this based on WOTC in the past and based on your past experiences. To be blunt, you just have it wrong. Not that you are wrong mind you. You could be proven right. But we can only go on what is being said or what is known. The unknown, that's on the doubters. It isn't on WOTC. They have given what they can and until they prove otherwise, whether or not you give them benefit of the doubt, they're taking it. It's their right and 4E is a new world.
More importantly, scrap what you know about WOTC in general. Scrap what you know about your prior experiences unless they truly apply here, apples to apples. They have never tried a web tie-in like this. No one has. So while they are going through growing pains, yes it effects us all negatively. But that doesn't mean they are abandoning ship. That's placing your own interpretation on things. And again, you could all be proven right. Until WOTC announces anything though, it's all just paranoia.
And please also understand, this is for everyone, not just the last poster per se. I aim this at no one specifically. But where attempts at clarification are being made, don't read into things just to do so. It's quite clear to me they will be releasing more tools. They just won't tell you what it is. They can't.
I don't care about dates. I know how dates can get messed up with software.
Hey again all, sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
I’ve been reading what you’re saying concerning the DI article and D&D Insider, and I want you to know that all of this feedback you’re generating is being listened to, and is incredibly useful. In fact, to help us collect this feedback, we’ve posted up a D&D Insider survey that we’d like you to funnel your opinions into.
Thanks for your help!
Thank you, WotC_Trevor! Interesting survey. I really liked the ideas about the physical minis of our D&D characters. I especially liked the idea of the discount on the D&D books for Insider subscribers. I really hope that one comes to pass. I do have a question on that, though. How would these discounts be handled? Would it be on the books bought directly from WotC, or would we have a coupon code or membership card that would be used at places like Amazon.com or our favorite brick and mortar gaming stores?
IMO If you don't help by sharing your thoughts with them when they ask, like now, then you have little foundation to complain when things don't go the way you think they should.
I wholeheartedly agree. Demographic information is a given on any survey. I fail to see the hue and cry over it. It is not like they asked for address or social security number.
Right now we're in the "getting the Character Builder and Compendium solid" phase. Once we're confident that it is stable and will continue to be stable moving forward, you will start to hear more about the next project.
could you define any goals that must be met for the cb to be called stable?
the compendium is pretty much stable, with minor logout issues. it gets partially redesigned, ok - but that was not due to stability or usability issues.
we just would like to know when you'll be starting working on the next tool. and also, what the next tool would be.
I wholeheartedly agree. Demographic information is a given on any survey. I fail to see the hue and cry over it. It is not like they asked for address or social security number.
Actually it is not a given, though most do request the information.
As for what the survey appeared to cover it had little to do with how old or what gender you were. The survey was about what was desired to be seen and how active a D&D player a person was and at least some indication about how active they were in the past (prior editions played).
As far as it goes I hardly called out a hue and cry, just reported that I choose not to answer those questions. A hue and cry would have been if I advised others not to answer those questions or to boycott the survey totally. I did not do that, I just said I did not choose to answer those questions.
could you define any goals that must be met for the cb to be called stable?
Well, I guess they want to fix the printing issues. There are still a lot of people (including me) who get messed up power cards, the portrait will almost never show up correctly and some people can not print at all.
I also guess when they like the print out, they can move on.
I'm just getting involved with 4th Edition and the supporting materials on the website. I subscribed, I read the information, downloaded the stuff and from this perspective I am pleased with what has been offered thus far. Despite the DI's current situation I don't feel bad about it, not at all.
I too have been playing this game for many years and always get something out of it. Looking back when the D&D Chatroom was first closed until further notice I looked around the web for a replacement. I found myself spending a lot of time re-learning things just to get a tabletop game going with chat features and the like. Recently I asked myself, is this all worth it? Going about my personal business looking to continue enjoying playing and running D&D games for me and my friends. I surmised I would be spending extra time on something that will become obsolete once Wizards finalizes their dugeonbuilder/server/chat/tabletop gaming features. So I've decided it would be in my best interest to get more involved with 4th and what is currently being promoted as the upcoming premiere Dungeons & Dragons online game.
Given all the information produced by Wizards in support of 4th edition and in response to the demands of the online gaming community with their new software programs, I'd have to say I am happy. I know that the time I spend learning 4th edition and all the online things given in support I would become pleased in the long term. I look forward to the day when I, and others, can log in and start playing in a new and innovative manner that only Wizards of the Coast could bring. The Digital Insider, in my opinion, will return and better than ever. If anything, for the meantime, woudn't it be nice to have them give end users of the character builder program a way to upload their creations online to see how others are building with the new rules? I'd think so, it would help newbies like myself in this regard. See, learning and passing those teachings on to others is what makes D&D so popular and successful.
Overall I'm pleased with what has been given thus far and look forward to hearing, viewing and learning more. Ultimately enjoying the game online with people around the world.
No it was a year and a half ago. And they did not say that the reason for the change was becauser the digital tools would render 3rd edition obsolete, or if they did I certainly don't ever recall it. In fact over half of the digial tools are in fact setting neutral, incidently the three tools that are not ready yet.
This is a quote from The worlds and monsters preview book from
Bill Slavecsek
"Along the way, we also came up with the idea for DUNGEONS
& DRAGONS INSIDER. This exciting suite of digital tools for players
and Dungeon Masters was just too powerful a concept to try
to shoehorn the existing d20 Game System around it. Instead,
we knew we had to rebuild the game to take full advantage of
this amazing new initiative. When the two concepts merged-a
new edition and a new digital initiative-we knew it was time to
start planning the 4th Edition ofD&D."
so again, the reason for 4th edition was a set of tools that are not ready 8 months after world of dungeons and dragoncraft shipped?
K
This is a quote from The worlds and monsters preview book from
Bill Slavecsek
"Along the way, we also came up with the idea for DUNGEONS
& DRAGONS INSIDER. This exciting suite of digital tools for players
and Dungeon Masters was just too powerful a concept to try
to shoehorn the existing d20 Game System around it. Instead,
we knew we had to rebuild the game to take full advantage of
this amazing new initiative. When the two concepts merged-a
new edition and a new digital initiative-we knew it was time to
start planning the 4th Edition ofD&D."
so again, the reason for 4th edition was a set of tools that are not ready 8 months after world of dungeons and dragoncraft shipped?
K
Sure if you ignore the fact that in other parts of that book they mention other reasons for wanting to create a new edition - like being aware of the fact they were designing "around known problems".
I had completely forgotten about that.
Sure if you ignore the fact that in other parts of that book they mention other reasons for wanting to create a new edition - like being aware of the fact they were designing "around known problems".
As much as I hate 4E= your personal pet peeve. He just showed you a quote from one of the big designers stating we specifically made 4th edition because the D 20 system wouldn't work in an online format. There may very well be other reasons but that would mean. Bill is clearly lying in that post and your the one always saying that we should just believe what the good people tell us. I'm sorry I must award this round to mechaprawn.
mechaprawn Joo winz teh intronet but I deduct 5 points for unnecessary use of WoW
mechaprawn Joo winz teh intronet but I deduct 5 points for unnecessary use of WoW
Seconded.
this amazing new initiative" (talking about D&DI) again a quote. So I have trouble comprehending what I read? Again that is "REBUILD THE GAME to take full advantage of this AMAZING NEW INITIATIVE." (meaning D&DI)." Can you comprehend that? All the talk of making changes to game mechanics aside (and fancy new artwork...including how to differentiate between the lizardmen and troglodyte...yes, I comprehend that as well), the MAJOR reason for the change of 4th edition was to "rebuild the game to take full advantage of this amazing new initiative."
K
Clearly there was some look at where money was going, and if fact some of the design team very active on WOW from what has been posted by them.
So it should not be surprising that 4th strives to be even more computer friendly, though glutted with silly images that many like.
WoW is like D&D and D&D is like WoW. They're both fantasy games and fantasy THINGS in general tend to take inspiration from each other.
A classic example is The Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings.
I don't understand why that is a big deal... and I actually think its cool that there seems to be some idea swapping and inspiration taken there. Call me crazy, but I think its quite fun.
I don't know what all of the animosity about 4e being WoW-like is.
Well for me it is all the bloody images I keep hearing about that would strain my box and connection. I not knowing much about the actual workings of WOW comments have lead me to believe less role play, more visual effects, simple rules (as much as possible) so that more can pay and play.
Design team members telling us they were inspired by a computer game for their design, in part, bothers me for something that is still suppose to be table top gaming. I also did not like what I read concerning SAGA StarWars, and most of those comments were fans of it.
3.0 came out before WOW and I believed it was simplified to be more easy to port to computer.
I don't know what all of the animosity about 4e being WoW-like is.
WoW is like D&D and D&D is like WoW. They're both fantasy games and fantasy THINGS in general tend to take inspiration from each other.
It is the geek hierarchy. No matter what your geek hobby is, all other geek hobbies are automagically worse. When 4E was first announced, one of the main rallying points by the anti-4E crowd was that it was "WoW on paper". Now that isn't necessarily a bad thing. WoW is incredibly popular, and WotC could do a lot worse than to get the same success.
Design team members telling us they were inspired by a computer game for their design, in part, bothers me for something that is still suppose to be table top gaming. I also did not like what I read concerning SAGA StarWars, and most of those comments were fans of it.
From my understanding, one of the major things that WotC grabbed from WoW in their design of 4E was the ease of entry. WoW is, for the person who has never played any MMO online before, incredibly easy to get into.
There were definitely other ideas that WotC took from WoW, as well as other games like Savage Worlds, nWOD, Spirit of the Century and various other games, from the computer variety, to console games, to indie RPGs and other mainstream RPGs.
WoW is like D&D and D&D is like WoW. They're both fantasy games and fantasy THINGS in general tend to take inspiration from each other.
Kyros, I get where you are coming from...it's the whole "the son becomes the father, the father becomes the son." routine, and it's true, without D&D there would be no WoW, so why shouldn't D&D ride on WoW's coat tail. BUT, and this is the thing of it...there have been plenty of fantasy games in the past that have borrowed the flavour, while keeping game mechanics in there own particular idiom if you will. Look at D&D/Palladium rpg...when first brought to our regular rpg sessions years and years...and years ago, my first thought was "why the hell should we play this...we have D&D!" But after trying it I realized that, while it had the same flavour of D&D, the game mechanics were completely polar to it.
Fast forward years later to D&D 3E, it wasn't perfect, but I believe they did a pretty decent job on what was a fairly customizable game. So in the (lets see if my memory is working here...) 8 years(give or take) that 3rd edition was being printed, what changed in Hasbro's mind that a new edition of D&D was needed? I guess It cant be just about D&DI...even though according to official print it was a MAJOR reason...I mean if you believe the printed word, it reads something like this..."D&D players are stupid, lazy, and need lots of pretty pictures!" Thats a simplification of course...but basically (and yes, I can comprehend what I read rather well) thats it. I'm sure, in those 8 years (give or take) that the rise of an incredibly popular game that had the flavour, if not the game mechanics, of D&D had NOTHING to do with the decision to change. While I do believe the game WAS changed because "D&D players are stupid, lazy, and need lots of pretty pictures!" (not my belief by the way), I also believe that the temptation to try to lure some of the WoW players into playing D&D by giving them something "...stupid, lazy with lots of pretty pictures" and recognizable to them was the reason for this new edition.
K
The underlying issue is that "most" MMO's don't require creative thought, a huge part fo why we all love D&D (I think we can all agree on this). Instead MMO's center around grabbing a big enough stick with some friends, then beating random things with those sticks to solve EVERY problem you come across.
While I do believe the game WAS changed because "D&D players are stupid, lazy, and need lots of pretty pictures!" (not my belief by the way), I also believe that the temptation to try to lure some of the WoW players into playing D&D by giving them something "...stupid, lazy with lots of pretty pictures" and recognizable to them was the reason for this new edition.
K
Well, I think the reasoning was "D&D players want to have fun".
And also "we think distributing x + INT bonus + human bonus skill points to two dozens of skills each level just to suck at almost everything except if you are a rogue or an INT monster is not fun"
And also "we think making a cool fighter character and figuring out you are worthless beginning at level 12 is not fun"
And also "we think casters having 90% of all the options is not fun"
And also "making your cool wizard character and dying after hit the first time by a monster at level 1 is not fun"
I don't think there is anything wrong with their reasoning.
P.S.: I can totally understand if you don't like 4e. Some of my friends don't like it because it lacks some of the things they liked in 3e, and I respect them and their opinion. But assuming that the 4e designers think bad of D&D players or WoW players or both is an other issue.
And also "we think distributing x + INT bonus + human bonus skill points to two dozens of skills each level just to suck at almost everything except if you are a rogue or an INT monster is not fun"
I understand where you are coming from Thomson, one persons Picasso is another persons Easley (actually, that kinda sounds like a compliment to Picasso, in which case I didnt mean it.) and I am not, by any means, saying 3e was perfect...there were alot of rules, but its a pen and paper game, there are suppose to be rules.
Really All I had to say, right from the beginning is, I do not buy the reason they gave for the creation of 4e as being D&DI, when the tools aren't even ready almost a year after the game that was made to take advantage of said tools shipped (and I don't consider the character builder as anything new...anyone out there remember the e-tools for 3rd edition?).
So if anyone feels angry or upset with anything I have said, I truly apologize, much like you, I love D&D, and regardless of which edition you use, you are my kind of people.
K
dnd 4 is not like wow. it's like diablo II with some other players around, and a DM making the campaign world instead of playing all the same again.
also, dnd is not at all like any computer game (that i know of, and that's lots), since it actually allows players to change the world. (if their dm is fit enough to handle that and not railroading instead)
--
so why do people insist that it is like wow?
1)you have different build paths you can take. => diablo 2 had that already. many other computer games have that. heck, even other rpgs have that. so this is not at all wow-style.
2)you have to choose from a limited set of powers, but you can choose each level => actually, this is just a fairness issue that originated from the vancian casting system. wizards sorcerers and every spellcaster getting lots of stuff each level and fighters only if they multiclass was not balanced enough.
3) the mechanics feel so simplified and online-gamey
=> actually, wow is a lot more complex than dnd4e. and i believe that it's good that way. RP mechanics should be simple. roll d20, add modifier, know result. Abilities should be kept simple. That way, you can resolve combat quickly, and focus on other points. or you can focus combat quickly, and use the time gained for more combat! (it all depends on game style.
now we know that it can require creative thought, and that the argument is deduct, but reboxxing it as D&D=WoW just is like saying the holy trinity is like water in three forms, it looks good and works at first until you analyze it further.
HA! Nice reference! I love Bill Maher.
HA! Nice reference! I love Bill Maher.
;) it will make sense to those who know eh?
Having tried several other virtual tabletop programs, I had given up hope of finding one which we all liked.
I am removing the auto-renew from my account and when my already paid for year is up... im done.
I should had just done monthly, but I had put my faith in WOTC.
A decent company says what it will do and do what it says.
I am very dissapointed with the company.
Few people (or companies) you never broken a promise, have never been late, or failed to do something correctly, or withheld information, even if it wasn't their fault. Doesn't mean we have to like it when it happens, but it has happened to virtually every company, government, and individual. Very few of us are absolutely perfect.
We are all only human (or elf, or dwarf, or ... sorry, I got carried away :embarrass )
I purchased the books and a subscription with the sole purpose of running a game with my friends who are now too far to meet face to face with.
Having tried several other virtual tabletop programs, I had given up hope of finding one which we all liked.
I am removing the auto-renew from my account and when my already paid for year is up... im done.
I should had just done monthly, but I had put my faith in WOTC.
A decent company says what it will do and do what it says.
I am very dissapointed with the company.
by the time they were accepting payment, they had stated that the later parts of the tools wouldn't be done for a while. In fact the subscription we are paying is a reduced cost for in development tools.
Sorry you got the wrong impression.
I am sure that WotC is very disappointed in WotC when it comes to DDI. Do you think they don't want the "promised" features? They had planned on selling a lot more subscriptions, and at a much higher price. They wanted to deliver some really exceptional tools to enhance and expand our playing experiences. But they have been trying to do this in an area in which they were not experienced. They underestimated development times and costs. Maybe they overestimated the abilities of some of the programmers and programming tools. Whatever, WotC was let down, too.
I think that it is a case of WotC not being a software development company, and thus not knowledgeable about the small things that happen in software development that, unless you are prepared for, add a great deal of time to development.
They aren't the first company to be late with a piece of software, they aren't the last company to be late.
There is a saying in the military: No plan ever survives contact with the enemy. The saying is applicable in this case. Note that I am not saying that the public is the enemy. In this case, the enemy is a combination of time, lack of company experience and various other factors.
There is a truism in most manufacturing industries:
Really All I had to say, right from the beginning is, I do not buy the reason they gave for the creation of 4e as being D&DI
Well I don't buy this, too. And I haven't recognized that this is the official reason. What I understood was, that they have seen the flaws in 3e and wanted to make a better P&P game. And then they thought "this time we should get it and also make the transition into the digital age after we failed with 3e".
They partially succeeded with the first goal - for a lot of people 4e is better than 3e, while for a lot of other people it is worse.
I guess we agree that their transition to the digital age was delayed and plastered with a history of bad communication.
And while the character builder is a really great tool and really looks professional, it still has some issues (ok at least one serious issue: the power cards...)
So if anyone feels angry or upset with anything I have said, I truly apologize, much like you, I love D&D, and regardless of which edition you use, you are my kind of people.K
Thx for making this clear. Same thing for me. And if we meet some day somewhere and you would want me as player in a game of D&D because you want to show me that really cool adventure you have made - well, if I have a little time, I would play your adventure, no matter what edition :D
P.S.: I could use some help in making a good AD&D char, though, since I only played basic, 3e, 3.5 and 4th. I just watched a game of 2nd edition and while I was fascinated, I had troubles understanding what exactly was going on ;)
There is a truism in most manufacturing industries:
So by this logic they decided instead of good and fast and let the people who Frigging love our products cover the overages, to go with good and cheap and let the people who frigging love our products to become upset, suspicious, and down right angry at our company.
Mechaprawns ORIGINAL point still stands... Bill Slaviseks quote is quite possibly the most damning thing to DDi and the "2 seperate entities" argument I have seen.
There is a truism in most manufacturing industries:
except this is not possible in SW-development. good almost always depends on "expensive". It should be "pick one" in this special case.
to be precise:
you have quality, time and the number of features you can invest in.
all those depend on how much you're gonna invest.
WOTC wanted high quality, with lots and lots of features. they did not plan for a really big budget, else they'd hired like 200 programmers to get it done within the year. (i'm not going to look into the further problems this would pose in itself)
instead, they built a rather small team. with quality and amount of features in the front, clearly time became an issue, and in the long run, a problem. they reduced features(and also the amount of apps published synchronous), but still the quality they wanted could not be reached with the given budget.
now, they even reduced the budget more, by laying of some people working on the tools like elf. clearly, that was no good business decision, as it will invariably delay their products more, or force them to lower their quality or feature standard.
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@kyros: no matter why they made the 4e, many people still would like it even if there was not a single line of it available in the internet. shareholder value and common wants often play into the same direction, there are and were many reasons for a new edition/change. and imo, there still are things to change in 4e, but it was a good step towards a more modern, user-friendly game.
dnd is like those complex boardgames you get - the ones from the 80ies had their special charm, but if you compare their rulesets and ease of play to modern games, they really are so far behind... same holds true for some parts of dnd. easier rules in a game that stays about as complex as it was, is always a win for me.
except this is not possible in SW-development. good almost always depends on "expensive". It should be "pick one" in this special case.
Ummm... Actually it does apply. WotC didn't originally pick two, they picked three and tried to make it work. That's why D&Di is where it is.
Now, they HAVE picked two. Good and cheap. Which means that fast is --- well, you guys know where that's at.
Now, they HAVE picked two. Good and cheap. Which means that fast is --- well, you guys know where that's at.
still, this does not work in SW-development.
cheap or to few developers mean
-additional development cycles
-longer (and increased) maintenance cycles
which carries you back to more costs, and further delays on the next tools, which means increased costs again.
you can't have good quality & cheap. it just does not work like that.
By cheap it doesn't mean minimum wage, it just means that you aren't throwning heaps of money at the project.
I think that WotC has picked good and cheap. The Character Builder is good, the compendium is great, and based onthe quick preview by WotC_DM, it looks like the upgrades that they have done to them are on the great side as well.
I think that WotC has picked good and cheap. The Character Builder is good, the compendium is great, and based onthe quick preview by WotC_DM, it looks like the upgrades that they have done to them are on the great side as well.
since they are reworking the compendium for the third time now, it can not possibly be called "cheap". for what it does, the compendium was probably extremely expensive in software development costs. i doubt, however, that wotc does a good job at calculating such costs based to projects. many companies fail to do so, and wonder about the value afterwards.
Unless you were expecting WotC to get things perfect the first time out, I am not sure how the patches they have done to the compendium can be called "reworking the compendium." People wanted improvements, WotC is providing them. It is a routine part of releasing software to the public that every software company does.
Agreed. The Compendium was awesome as it was. Refinements, such as the upgrades they are doing now, just make it even more user-friendly and amazing.
Agreed. The Compendium was awesome as it was. Refinements, such as the upgrades they are doing now, just make it even more user-friendly and amazing.
the compendium is awesome only due to the contents, not the technical implementation behind it. and that's the main problem: yes, you can live on content alone. but this is a bad way to go. filters were and still are wacky, and what else is there to it? nothing. basically, with access to the database, the current tool can be made within 2 or 3 weeks, and using freely available frameworks like smartGWT would up the usability by miles.
and, no, what they are doing is not upgrades and patches, as ordinary software companies do. it's fixing their loopholes. also they need to redevelop parts of it due to new monsters, feats, which is kinda strange and reeks of incompetence.
no, the current compendium only has one good thing for it: the data behind it. everything else is like done by a 2nd grader in highschool, and if any of my devs would come to me with such an application after that long of development time, i'd likely send him into lots of web development and usability training courses just so he gets up-to-date again.
If they spent less time worrying about the graphic elements and more on the actual functionality it would work a lot better no doubt.
Pretty graphic elements =/= good product in this case.
the compendium is awesome only due to the contents, not the technical implementation behind it. and that's the main problem: yes, you can live on content alone. but this is a bad way to go. filters were and still are wacky, and what else is there to it? nothing.
Imagine that, a program designed to allow an easy-to-use interface with a database, only interfaces with the database. Whodathunkit!!
basically, with access to the database, the current tool can be made within 2 or 3 weeks, and using freely available frameworks like smartGWT would up the usability by miles.
I need to dig through my previous posts. I *know* that I predicted that someone would claim this.
and, no, what they are doing is not upgrades and patches, as ordinary software companies do. it's fixing their loopholes. also they need to redevelop parts of it due to new monsters, feats, which is kinda strange and reeks of incompetence.
No. They are patching and improving, which as anyone will tell you, is quite realistic and expected of any company making a program. In fact, one could almost say it is the norm, seeing as how very few (none??) programs are ever released perfect. As for having to expand the database to include new monsters, I fail to see how that "reeks of incompetence". The designers for the interface were undoubtedly given a set of data that would be placed into the database. Then, the designers of D&D went and started creating monsters *outside* of said original dataset. Now I am not sure how much mind-reading the programmers you know can do, but for most of them that I know, it approaches zero.
no, the current compendium only has one good thing for it: the data behind it. everything else is like done by a 2nd grader in highschool, and if any of my devs would come to me with such an application after that long of development time, i'd likely send him into lots of web development and usability training courses just so he gets up-to-date again.
If only the data was the important thing, then I guess that you would have no problem simply having the data file and having to flip through it manually, or having to use a command line interface instead of a GUI.
is it better than what was available before? partially with the builder, definitely with the compendium (they just let noone put up that data)
btw: that's the reason why i said you are a very partial vcl - but again, this is required to do that job anyway.
Imagine that, a program designed to allow an easy-to-use interface with a database, only interfaces with the database. Whodathunkit!!
I know!!! Its GREAT!!! AND IT DOESN'T WORK PROPERLY WOOHOO!!!! *dances with MB*
I need to dig through my previous posts. I *know* that I predicted that someone would claim this.
My friends and I did this one already. We timed it to just over 3 weeks and we weren't even working on it every day. The only books it doesn't have in it are Open Grave and Draconomicon. (We didn't put the MM or any monster in our though) We just haven't gotten to those yet because we have jobs that, uh, aren't doing what the program guys at WOTC are SUPPOSED to be doing. We aren't programmers and we use it privately. If we wanted to throw artwork on there, we would, but we don't care for it for that particular tool.
You predicted it, and there are A LOT of players and DMs who did this. I know I'm not the only one.
No. They are patching and improving, which as anyone will tell you, is quite realistic and expected of any company making a program. In fact, one could almost say it is the norm, seeing as how very few (none??) programs are ever released perfect.
I hope they make it considerably better than it is right now. I was REALLY excited to use it when the updates came out for it, but... it is still infuriating to use.
As for having to expand the database to include new monsters, I fail to see how that "reeks of incompetence".
I think I covered that already... but just in case, you should read back up.
If only the data was the important thing, then I guess that you would have no problem simply having the data file and having to flip through it manually, or having to use a command line interface instead of a GUI.
Dig through books for 10-15 minutes in game... have an easy to use program that has the rules in question available... Not hard to see the best option there...
Considering that if I put forward ANY real time into my 'compendium' I could have the information in it before they updated anything on theirs AND that it isn't absolutely infuriating to reference quickly in a game... I'd say there are many compendiums that would do better than the one they have now.
Yes it does look like it was made in 2 weeks (if you had good prep and such it could be less)
but really, once somethings done, it is done and you can live with it. They likely roadmap just like everyone else, so they organized things based on steps.
step 1, rules Data base
step 2, Data base interface(that's the compendium)
step 3, Character builder or visualizer (builds off database info)
step 4, dungeon builder(uses database monsters)
step 5, game table (integrates all of them, can't be done until all the prior is done)
to get passed step 2 quick, they did something quick with plans to revisit it later. Same with the character builder, they weren't shooting for perfect right off the back. I expect future tools to be the same, not perfect out the door, but rather sending updates to improve the products.
So now they are going back and updating things. Really, to criticize a company for putting a product out that's not really 1.0 status isn't tactful, especially given the situation that WoTC put it's programmers in. The staff is trying to get stuff out quick, and it will then go back and work on making them perfect.
2) your step a) is not present. the rules data base does not contain rules.
and no, it was in no way a quick release.
i don't know what business you're in, (except horraying wotc),
I've been using various sorts of software for the better part of 20 years now, and the "release software" followed by "patch to improve or fix bugs" is, I would have to say, pretty much a universal way of doing things.
but i develop software for a living. i know what i'm talking about, and i know that they're doing a pretty bad job.
Appeal to Authority
I know!!! Its GREAT!!! AND IT DOESN'T WORK PROPERLY WOOHOO!!!! *dances with MB*
*shrug* works for me. I type in a term, it gives me the results that are in the database. How exactly does the Compendium not work for you?
My friends and I did this one already. We timed it to just over 3 weeks and we weren't even working on it every day. The only books it doesn't have in it are Open Grave and Draconomicon. (We didn't put the MM or any monster in our though) We just haven't gotten to those yet because we have jobs that, uh, aren't doing what the program guys at WOTC are SUPPOSED to be doing. We aren't programmers and we use it privately. If we wanted to throw artwork on there, we would, but we don't care for it for that particular tool.
So you did one that has
- a lot less data in it than the WotC version;
- is designed to work for only a few, as opposed to orders of magnitude higher numbers of simultaneous access;
- isn't required to interface with a separate database checking for proper subscription access; and
- any number of other requirements that WotC placed on the programmers.
You will forgive me if I don't take your (and whitebaron's) claim that it could be done in a couple of weeks. Note that I am not saying that they are late, because they are.
1) they failed in making it steps. they're still doing multiple things at once with the same perosn responsible for multiple things at once. (compendium, cb)
So, just to make sure I understand you, you expect WotC to write perfect software that never needs any patches, and that the programmers of the software (as well as the developers of D&D) are expected to predict (now) all of the various things that might require additional data fields to be created when the devs think of it 4 years from now.
MB (and myself at times) get called WotC fanboys, or have it pointed out that we "Hooray WotC". Doing so automatically sets the stage for a confrontation, because even if it isn't true, it sets the person making the accusation up to be labeled "anti-fan" by their own words.
If MB's "job" is to "Hooray WotC" that sets up the expectation that you're being a detractor - even if your goal is to simply provide constructive critism.
Ask any one of the NGs (WolfStar76, AsmodeusLore, Cart_Sprinter or Kouk). They have seen them, they have input on them.
If you only have user experience and no first hand knowledge of product/program development don't make accusations about fallacious argument in this case.
People with experience or training in the matter will recognise the validity of the argument whitebaron makes, the issue is that we cannot see behind the curtain at WotC to know why the final product we do see emerged the way it did. There is certainly evidence out there that its not the programers and their immediate project leaders that are at fault here, but rather the interface of the project groups with other interests in the corporate body.
As to it not having been done before... have people not seen d20srd.org which does this for 3E?
Its not rocket science, its database access through a website, and there are many well established solutions to this, even for ones that require a log on. (Hint you are using one right now.)
I should also point out that the reports that I send to WotC CM about the status of the DDI forums and the status of DDI are fairly critical and *do* bring up (almost) all of the points that are made on these forums.
all i always see is you horraying wotc. everything else is left to private circles, it seems.
as for your fallacy: well, apply it to your user-experience first and see whether you come out superior.
as for making the product within 2 weeks: give me access to their database, and i'll give you the same amount of usability as the compendium has within 2 weeks. deal? (the hard part about such a project is only the data input, not the user interface. output, searching, filters - that's pretty common cheese.)
oh, and for the database: yes, i expect them to talk to the designers, AND be prepared for changes. nothing more. dnd is based on exception-based design, so you should make the database for the exceptions, not the rules. this is where they failed.
some other technicalities: they failed to use foreign keys for some of their values, like "standard elite solo", which results in errors at data input time, which are just ridiculous in the modern time.
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@wolfstar: i appreciate your opinion, but i've had it with those "oh everything is good"-sayers. especially since mb made it very clear that he believes my claims to be ridiculous, and his to be [post=17931838]far superior[/post].
So you did one that has
- a lot less data in it than the WotC version;
- is designed to work for only a few, as opposed to orders of magnitude higher numbers of simultaneous access;
- isn't required to interface with a separate database checking for proper subscription access; and
- any number of other requirements that WotC placed on the programmers.
1. Actually ours has the most used rules elements that are needed, as well as the page references to them in case of a misprint. So in essence, mine has stuff that theirs DOESN'T. So... technically... ours had more information than the original one they put out.
2. Well, yeah. Its designed to work for me and my group.
3. No, considering that one would just have access to the primary database and not have to go through an interface. Its all in PDF format and chaptered out. Its actually much easier to reference because, hey, its right here and not lost because of an inaccurate keyword and doesn't log you out every 15 minutes (which, to my knowledge, they still haven't fixed on theirs because I'm still booted after a short time).
Inputing the information took the longest, sure. But it only took us 3 weeks to create a working compendium. Now, of course we didn't have to upload the information to the web or have to write out the rest of the program, but we ARE NOT programmers. Just a bunch of geeks wanting an easy to use compendium that DOESN'T give us a headache.
You will forgive me if I don't take your (and whitebaron's) claim that it could be done in a couple of weeks.
I'll remind you I never said that it could be done in 2 weeks. However, with people who actually sit down and have the job explicitly to make these programs, yes, I do believe that this could have been done in about a month and a half (max) by a group of competent programmers who job was explicitly to work on this. This isn't a big program. This isn't Diablo 3. This isn't Oblivion. Its a web-based compendium.
So, just to make sure I understand you, you expect WotC to write perfect software that never needs any patches and that the programmers of the software (as well as the developers of D&D) are expected to predict (now) all of the various things that might require additional data fields to be created when the devs think of it 4 years from now.
Uh, no. That is ridiculous and you know that isn't what we meant. Stop putting words in our mouths.
So, whether you answer a survey or take a poll or post to the message boards, please talk to us. Digital Insider is ending, but the conversation is just beginning.
Hmmmm conversation, where are the people from WotC. Did they want to talk about Insider with us? Because they haven't been here. The volunteer , note I didn't say fanboys because I consider myself a D&D fanboy, have been here to tell us to calm down and that the WotC guys will tell us some news when they get it. Here is the big picture, the guys at WotC have the news we want. All we really want is an answer to a single question:
Is Wizards of the coast continuing to work on new elements for Digital Insider; and if yes which ones? That is one gentlemen asking another group of fine gentlemen if they are still planning to go through with the tools that were the basis for changing their overall product.
Sincerely Redsnowdude - A DM who enjoys 4E and for once on these boards would like someone with the title Staff to answer a single question.
I didn't say fanboys because I consider myself a D&D fanboy... A DM who enjoys 4E and for once on these boards would like someone with the title Staff to answer a single question.
I could kiss you. Well said in both accounts. You and I are in the same situation regarding this. I don't think it could be said much better than the way you posted it.
Do we get an answer guys?
Simply posting a question on the forums in the middle of a thread this deep greatly diminishes the chance that a WotC employee will see it and pass it on up to the people who have the authority to answer your question.
...really? I thought they said to post on the forums (among other things)?
*Checks Bill's quote*
Yep. They sure did. So what gives?
Still waiting for that answer guys.
...really? I thought they said to post on the forums (among other things)?
*Checks Bill's quote*
Yep. They sure did. So what gives?
Still waiting for that answer guys.
I didn't say that you shouldn't. I just said that your chances of getting an answer are, IMO, *much* higher if you send it through the CS system, where it is sure to be directed to the appropriate person/people.
They said take a survey or give feedback here. I mean, unless you're telling me that doing something they didn't ask us to do will ACTUALLY get an answer from them I am completely confused as to why you're telling people to use the CS.
Posting a question 300+ posts into a thread in a fairly busy forum at a time when both the compendium and the character builder have just been updated, greatly decreases the chance that a WotC employee will see it.
In order to increase the chance that someone will see it, you have a couple of options: You can send a comment through the CS system through the link I posted above (I have fixed the embedded image, I linked to the incorrect one earlier). The other option would be to start a new thread in this forum.
I was sure that I had put the second option (starting a new thread) in my above posts, but I see that I didn't. My apologies for the confusion.
Reading back over my posts from last night only confirms my belief that I need to be more careful when posting when I am tired. The tone of my posts was far too aggressive, and for that, I apologize.
While I disagree with the point of view that some people have towards WotC/DDI, there was no need for me to respond the way that I did.
Again, I apologize.
Still hopeful ;)
Edit: Mudbunny you do an excellent job on these forums. You do your best to answer questions and I firmly believe that you do your best to pass information on to WotC.
Well I just shot off an E-mail to them with my question, and hopefully we will all gain the respect of an answer within 2 business days. Which because I am a nice guy will go ahead and assume Monday of next week.
Honestly, I wouldn't expect any quick answer on this. From my between-the-lines reading of various posts, combined with the poll, it says to me that they *are* committed to the rest of the tools that they announced. I think that March will see continued focus on the compendium and the character builder while they gather and analyse the data from the survey. Once that is done, I would expect them to decide what tool is going to be worked on next based on a combination of how close the various tools are to completion and what tool most people want to see next. If I remember tomorrow, I have a post from a staff member saying what state the various tools are in.
Edit: Mudbunny you do an excellent job on these forums. You do your best to answer questions and I firmly believe that you do your best to pass information on to WotC.
I am trying to get permission to share the status reports that I send to the DDI CM team with you guys.
Your best bet if you want an answer is to go through the "Contact CS" link at the bottom of the page.
the problem with that is manyfold:
most importantly, though, it means that you'll get answer by a service guy.
someone, who is by definition, not able to answer what we really want. only bill or someone similarly high up in the authority chain can currently give those answers, as all devs are on very tight leash.
a CS guy just won't know, and even if he knows by chance, he won't tell due to not being allowed to do so. all you get by using CS is "we'll pass it up the chain, issue resolved"
oh, and there is already a single thread dedicated to getting more information, which i'll shamelessly bump until someone posts -something- official in there.
@bunny: we all have our ups and downs. at least now i know where your down hailed from. hope your daughter's getting better.
What a mess.
Wouldn't be such a mess if they'd tell us what in the Nine Hells is going on.
Cheap is perhaps the wrong word. "Not extremely expensive" or "Not money is no object" cost might be more accurate.
By cheap it doesn't mean minimum wage, it just means that you aren't throwning heaps of money at the project.
I think that WotC has picked good and cheap. The Character Builder is good, the compendium is great, and based onthe quick preview by WotC_DM, it looks like the upgrades that they have done to them are on the great side as well.
Just for fun:
See good and cheap
Seriously, there are some severe flaws in the way WOTC has gone about this (as a developer myself..).
It seems to me that they're making some moves to correct this, but it's hard to say as an outsider as, well, we don't get any info :D We're going to have to trust that they're fixing things. It's hard to trust as they've disappointed us several times in the past 8 months or so, but I'm an eternal optimist.....
however, good and cheap is pretty much never possible (in software), except if you cut down on features to make it so.
We are spoiled because Wizards is way ahead of the curve when it comes to printed product. Most books come out on time (to the day), using a schedule that is made public 8 months in advance. The majority of game publishers don't give us anywhere near that lead time and are pretty consistantly late by a month or more.
WotC overestimated their abilities when it came to software. Development there is different, and they weren't ready for how different. So they let us down. They didn't lie, they made mistakes. They didn't "break a promise", they were unable to meet their planned release schedule. I haven't studied every press release, but I have yet to see or hear a statement from them where anyone said "I (or we) PROMISE...". Nor did they guarantee to deliver on time. They announced (and promoted) their planned schedule, but that's not the same as a promise. I am certain that they wanted to deliver on time and as projected. No one is as disappointed as WotC that all the tools and VTT is not yet available. Don't forget, they thought they would be getting more money than they are for DDI.
It's disappointing they didn't deliver, we don't have to like it, we don't even have to forgive them. But we did know from before 4E release date that the electronic goodies were going to be late, that some were a year or more off. So let's try to keep a bit of perspective in our rants.
Just my two copper.
It's disappointing they didn't deliver, we don't have to like it, we don't even have to forgive them. But we did know from before 4E release date that the electronic goodies were going to be late, that some were a year or more off. So let's try to keep a bit of perspective in our rants.
I know WOTC is not a software company. But they knew well before the relase of 4th ed that DDi would not be ready on time. They said NOTHING. Then when 4th ed hit, with full page ads in the back of the core books, they still said NOTHING for two months. Then when they did say something, you had to hunt for info on the fourms. Nothing posted on the DnD main page.
I understand that software stuff gets delayed all the time, I'm upset at how WOTC did not inform the customer base of it and I feel they are still doing it with regaurds to DDi.
Show me where we know before 4th ed came out that the tools would be delayed.
Unfortunately, we in customer service are not the developers for D&D Insider, and we do not know which features they are currently working on, or which features will get released next. I can assure you though, that we are just as excited as you are to find out. Thank you so much for your support! Please let me know if you need anymore help!
So yeah pretty unfortunate. No news, and the light at the end of the tunnel looking more and more like the "we won't be saying anything until 5th edition train." I still hope that all the DDI stuff goes up, but WotC has broken my spirit.
-Redsnowdude, still waiting for a staff response.
That money, in turn, would help generate revenue to add team members and increase the speed at which all the features come out.
well said, but: adding team members to an already late project makes it finish even later. that's due to the increased communication[1] needed, and the training[2] of new members you'll need. What would speed up the development process is something they seem to have partially done - focus each person on only one task.[3]
still, their sw-development process is awfully slow and it seems very far from perfect[4], so i do not expect them to deliver anything else for the majority of this year.
[1] each additional team member increases the amount of communication channels by n-1. total channels is n*(n-1)/2
1-> 0; 2-> 1; 3-> 3; 4-> 6; 5-> 10;
so, if you'd need to talk to your sole coworker 2 hours/day, it would be a total of 20 hours/day for 5 people. (or 4 hours per worker, so effectively doubling the communication needed)
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[2] training does not necessarily mean you learn something new, just teaching the basic premises and expectations can take a long time, and takes time from both the seasoned and the new dev - resulting in some months of lost time until the new one is fully up and running.
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[3] which saddens me, is that WOTC really only uses one team of developers for so many different tasks at once. This can only lead to disaster, the disaster in this case is obvious - very late releases and only 1/4th of the expected features are ready yet.
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[4] noone can ever be truly perfect for that matter. but their procedure obviously needs a lot of tuning, not just some finetuning. this is only to be expected, for such an unexperienced team. however, they seem to have at least some passion left. while it does not make better software, it helps in clearing up the mess they leave behind.
It's disappointing they didn't deliver, we don't have to like it, we don't even have to forgive them. But we did know from before 4E release date that the electronic goodies were going to be late, that some were a year or more off. So let's try to keep a bit of perspective in our rants.
You make a good point Curt, but you have to consider that not everyone knew that the goodies were going to be late. Not everyone is as plugged in as many of us here are.
That kid who just got his parents to shell out over $100 for the base books looks at the back of the PH and sees all these goodies that seemingly are available.
Trouble is, they are not.
So, perhaps, it is back to World of Warcraft for him, and we've lost (at least for a while) another of the next generation of gamers.
I have a hard time putting a thieving template on the WotC division in this matter, it just does not seem to fit for me, although obviously for others it does. What concerns me more than anything is the WotC divisions continued inability to communicate and work to stamp down these little fires that keep popping up.
One of the latest ones was generated by the wording (what was left out, actually) of a WotC release. A simple clarification, and multiple pages of a divisive thread here are stopped dead in their tracks.
But that is not happening. And that is why I have a concern for the future of D&D, under Hasbro.
About a year ago, I heard about the new 4E tools, and saw the demo on YouTube. Looked awesome, but I was hesitant to shell out the money for 4E core books, not to mention the monthly subscription fee.
I just bought the 4E core books (about $100 -- Yuck!). In the back are advertisements for DDI which appear to show the Character Visualizer and Game Table. Clearly, the implication is that if you subscribe to DDI, you'll have access to these tools.
Therefore, I just signed up for a 1-year subscription to DDI (about $60), downloaded/installed the Character Builder... and then noticed the "Character Visualizer" button was greyed out. On the right side of the window was the message, "You must have the Character Visualizer installed for this to function." So I went back to the DDI website, clicked on the Character Builder button, and looked for the "Download the Character Visualizer software here" link. Nothing.
It was at this point that I realized that the Character Builder and Character Visualizer were two different software applications (up until this point, I assumed that the Character Visualizer was built into the Character Builder, and that I just needed to subscribe to DDI in order to "unlock" this feature). The Character Builder FAQ makes no mention of the Character Visualizer. So I went searching under "D&DI News" link, and found this forum.
I don't mean to sound like a lawyer, but I feel like I've been totally misled here ("bait and switch"). The advertisements in the core rulebooks clearly imply that the Character Visualizer and Game Table are accessible via the D&D Insider subscription. Is there talk of a class action lawsuit? I know it would probably hurt WotC, but what about all of the people like me who were tricked into subscribing in order to gain access to software that doesn't exist, based on false advertising?
Some might argue, "Well, you get a lot of other cool stuff for your subscription money, like the magazines and Bonus Tools." I have almost never bought one of those magazines, and I certainly would never pay for a subscription to them. As for the Bonus Tools, I haven't even looked at them, because they're not what I was expecting (Character Visualizer and Game Table), based on the advertisements in the core rulebooks. The Character Builder is nice, but there are lots of "homegrown" solutions on the Internet which can be downloaded for free. Or I can just fill out the character sheet manually. So no need to spend $60 just for the Character Builder. And the Compendium? Nice, but I don't really use it. I'm a "core rules" purist, and don't plan to use any of the extra feats/powers/classes/etc. found in magazines, Players Handbook XXIII, etc. I have no intention of buying any hardcover books above and beyond the 3 core rulebooks (PHB, MM, DMG).
So what exactly did I get for my $60 annual subscription to DDI which is of value to me? Basically just the Character Builder. Yuck. Class action lawsuit? Hope not, because I like WotC, and hope they succeed. On the other hand, if they don't deliver on the Character Visualizer and Game Table (and the Dungeon Builder, as well), I will definitely not renew my subscription, and will probably ask WotC to refund my money.
Thoughts?
V/R,
JP
Hi all,
...
I don't mean to sound like a lawyer, but I feel like I've been totally misled here ("bait and switch"). The advertisements in the core rulebooks clearly imply that the Character Visualizer and Game Table are accessible via the D&D Insider subscription. Is there talk of a class action lawsuit? I know it would probably hurt WotC, but what about all of the people like me who were tricked into subscribing in order to gain access to software that doesn't exist, based on false advertising?
...
So what exactly did I get for my $60 annual subscription to DDI which is of value to me? Basically just the Character Builder. Yuck. Class action lawsuit? Hope not, because I like WotC, and hope they succeed. On the other hand, if they don't deliver on the Character Visualizer and Game Table (and the Dungeon Builder, as well), I will definitely not renew my subscription, and will probably ask WotC to refund my money.
Thoughts?
V/R,
JP
You may not have realized this, but you are getting everything at half-cost right now. WotC recognized that they weren't going to be able to deliver the full suite, so they cut the subscription cost in half, until they are able to give out a more complete selection. No guarantees about how long this reduced cost offering will last, mind you.
So what exactly did I get for my $60 annual subscription to DDI which is of value to me? Basically just the Character Builder. Yuck. Class action lawsuit? Hope not, because I like WotC, and hope they succeed. On the other hand, if they don't deliver on the Character Visualizer and Game Table (and the Dungeon Builder, as well), I will definitely not renew my subscription, and will probably ask WotC to refund my money.
Thoughts?
V/R,
JP
No class action possible.
You got what you purchased, three books with ads last few pages (hardly the first time a book had ads in them).
You purchased a "web content" package at about 1/2 the cost of the advertised DDI offer was that included a full package.
You received exactly what you agreed to purchase.
You do receive the "web content" plus the Bonus Tools that were not advertised. Now yes the ad said you could purchase more, however as it was not available (and still is not) you did not purchase more.
Oh forgot you also get the one application now as well for the same price as "web content"
You may not have realized this, but you are getting everything at half-cost right now. WotC recognized that they weren't going to be able to deliver the full suite, so they cut the subscription cost in half, until they are able to give out a more complete selection. No guarantees about how long this reduced cost offering will last, mind you.
I made the decision to spend $60 on the 1-year subscription based on the false advertisement implying that DDI included the Character Visualizer and Game Table. If the cost had been $120 for a 1-year subscription, I still might have gone ahead with the purchase, although I would have been more hesitant to spend that much. I assumed that the $60 for DDI is a little more than how much you would pay for a first-rate PC game. So buying the equivalent of one new PC game per year didn't sound too bad.
It's all about what the customer perceives as value. I value the Character Visualizer, Game Table, and Dungeon Builder because that's what was advertised as part of DDI. Not the magazines, which I could care less about.
So the "half-price" argument doesn't hold water with me. If/when WotC releases the Character Visualizer, Dungeon Builder, and Game Table, I'll re-assess whether I want to pay $100+ per year.
You purchased a "web content" package at about 1/2 the cost of the advertised DDI offer was that included a full package.
You received exactly what you agreed to purchase.
Now yes the ad said you could purchase more, however as it was not available (and still is not) you did not purchase more.
Not sure I understand you, but here goes:
- "the advertised DDI offer" that I'm talking about (the advertisements in the core rulebooks) mentions a "web content" package in terms of "quick access to exclusive material".
- However, the advertisement also mentions "digital tools." The advertisement then says "And with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with friends anywhere--wherever they live, wherever you go." Combined with the visual images of the Character Visualizer and Game Table, these words clearly imply that DDI comes with Character Visualizer and Game Table.
- "1/2 the cost of the advertised DDI offer"... the advertisements make no mention of how much DDI subscriptions cost.
- "You received exactly what you agreed to purchase"... Completely disagree. I agreed to purchase what was shown/implied in the advertisement. WotC failed to deliver said product.
- "the ad said you could purchase more"... No, the advertisements in the core rulebooks do not mention anything like this.
I hate to be a wet blanket, but the subscription page, where you choose the subscription package, makes it pretty clear the tools that are out, and just what you are getting out of your subscription.
Good point, it makes it "pretty clear" -- but not crystal clear. The reason? Because the advertisements in the core rulebooks do not give the name of the software displayed. I am only assuming the software shown in the advertisements is the Character Visualizer and the Game Table. I was only able to deduce this after researching in the forums. A customer shouldn't have to dig through forums. A customer should be able to get something that looks like what's pictured in the advertisement.
Here's the subscription page:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/subscription
A reasonable person could assume that the "Character Builder" and "Bonus Tools" included the software pictured in the advertisements. Although the Character Builder page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/characterbuilder) does not show any screenshots like the one in the advertisement, that doesn't mean that the Character Builder software did NOT include this functionality. The Character Builder FAQ made no mention of the Character Visualizer, so it's easy to see how a reasonable person could be confused by the ad. Also, the demo version of Character Builder included a greyed-out "Character Visualizer" button; therefore, one could reasonably assume that the Character Visualizer software is only downloadable or "unlocked" once a subscription is in place.
Looking at the Bonus Tools page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/bonustools), one could assume that the Encounter Builder includes the Game Table functionality displayed in the ads, although I must admit that I didn't assume this. Note that there is no way for a customer to verify this beforehand, since a current subscription is required to access the Encounter Builder tool (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/encountertool). I assumed that the desired functionality (Dungeon Builder and Game Table) would become "unlocked" as part of the Bonus Tools suite once I subscribed to DDI.
Bottom line: The customer should not have to do a bunch of research. What you see (in the ads) should be what you get.
Not sure I understand you, but here goes:
- "the advertised DDI offer" that I'm talking about (the advertisements in the core rulebooks) mentions a "web content" package in terms of "quick access to exclusive material".
- However, the advertisement also mentions "digital tools." The advertisement then says "And with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with friends anywhere--wherever they live, wherever you go." Combined with the visual images of the Character Visualizer and Game Table, these words clearly imply that DDI comes with Character Visualizer and Game Table.
- "1/2 the cost of the advertised DDI offer"... the advertisements make no mention of how much DDI subscriptions cost.
- "You received exactly what you agreed to purchase"... Completely disagree. I agreed to purchase what was shown/implied in the advertisement. WotC failed to deliver said product.
- "the ad said you could purchase more"... No, the advertisements in the core rulebooks do not mention anything like this.
*sighs*
The DDI was not advertised in just the books and they indicated on the web the price was not final (estimated price was 15.00 USD a month), which is why the price was not listed in the ad. Price subject to change anyway. I have ads in paperbacks that say I can order other paperbacks at a very low price. Considering how old those books are, ordering most of the books likely are out of print or certainly will cost more. Yes I know my example is not the best one, however it many ways it applies. A product is offered for sale, they indicate available now. It was not if you purchased the books June 6th, however you also could not purchase the content (DDI).
There is in no ad that says purchase of the core books or even one of them that you got DDI as part of the purchase price of the book. DDI was free for months past planned subscription for what was ready, before a price was charged for part of what was the advertised DDI package. What you were to pay for from that ill fated June 6th until Oct. IIRC was free to you. As it appears you came late to the game you have no basics to complain about missing out on the free stuff.
To signup, you were provided with the price and what would be provided. I have no idea if you read it, I have no idea when you signed up. One thing I do know is that you did not purchase DDI on that June 6th, because no one could. To hold any company responsible for a dated ad by the time you purchased a stand alone product has not validity under law. There is no case here.
You did not read the fine print, you are not a timely claimant based on what you indicate. The only possible class I could ever see existing would be those that purchased on or before that June 6th with the full intention of purchase of the full DDI package as advertised. IMO even that class would have very little damages to claim, I estimated as much as 0.03 USD as maximum award (before legal fees) per validated person.
I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say -- not worth my time explaining it again. Cheers!
Well let me see, you started with a belief a class action had some merit, it appears you are no longer pursuing that.
You are saying you purchased the books at some point in time and are upset the ads are not true. OK most are upset about that.
You believe you paid for all the tools when you signed up, others have complained that the signup was not all that clear about pointing out it was only for part of the planned DDI. The site however did tell you what you purchased.
Oh if you are upset or made about how well WotC communicates with its customers, most if not all appear to be upset about that.
Communication via text is not the same as face to face, however I believe all the issues you have raised have been addressed. Perhaps you care to try again.
Is just you believe you were tricked into a purchase you really did not want to make? If so some others have indicated that.
Here is my feedback:
I am also a Insider subscriber and the Character Builder was HUGE for me. Instead of having "10" places to look up what I need to do to level up, just follow the yellow brick road.
Here is my wish list!!
Amazon Kindle 2 - hits in a few weeks... I would LOVE to be able to easily read Dragon/Dungeon (insider, etc) all on it. (Especially if I can easily PUSH/PULL them into it automagically as an insider)
I would love even MORE to be able to buy PDFs that can easily be used in there for CORE books, etc. Might take some formatting but... 1 Kindle vs the 10 or so books in my backpack, heck ya!!
...
You guys are doing a great job, keep it up, I am getting more addicted by the day!! (I have 5-6 pre-orders ready to go on Amazon as soon as they release, including MINIS!)
I got the Kindle 2 this week and it is a huge improvement over the Kindle 1. I am a person who has been calling for reasonably priced PDFs for years; they are just too expensive for me right now. But, what I would actually much rather have is the books in Kindle format! A good price point would be $10-20 on Amazon.com. If you sell them for $10 I will buy *every* book you publish in that format! I already buy just about every print book for $20-25 that you publish on Amazon.
This morning I spent $100 on books for the Kindle 2. I would *love* to spend another $100 on D&D books. I guess you would probably have to have someone work on making the books look good in Kindle format, but I bet if you spent 40 hours on each book to create them and then 10 hours a month on *updating* them so that customers had versions with errata applied so that users would just always have the latest versions automagically downloaded to them. Well, I would be in heaven.
I really want to give you guys more money, but I want quality products in return. If you can't afford an employee to do the work... Get a Graphics Design intern to do it for free. I bet that there are plenty of people who would jump at the prospect. Heck, I would probably do it for you for free if you couldn't find someone better.
Now you might think to yourself, well it is just not worth our time, but I really think *now* is the time. So I ask you fellow D&D players, how many of you would buy Kindle versions of D&D books? Let WotC know. I would think that this has got to be more attractive to WotC than PDFs -- it has DRM built into it unlike the PDFs I bought (for *more* than the price of the physical core books).
Oh, and by the way, I have converted the core PDFs into Mobireader format and sent them to my Kindle 2. They look OK, but just OK -- you know thet artwork looks pretty good on the Kindle 2. But, I would rather someone do a more professional version... I have $100 burning a hole on my Amazon credit card ;-}
And on the subject of the magazines... Wow!!! I would love to have then delivered to my Kindle 2, but for now I will go through the pain of downloading the PDFs and converting them to Kindle 2 format (mobi) and then emailing them to my Kindle. I am going to be much more like to read them on the Kindle 2.
Love the Character Builder! Good job guys. I'll expect you to deliver another quality software product when you finish it. As an ex-software developer, I know these things take time, but please don't give up.
But please explore a more substantial relationship with Amazon and the Kindle 2. The Kindle 1 sold 500,000 units -- mostly to Oprah fans ;-} But I think techies will buy the Kindle 2 and a lot of those folks are ex-/current-/potential-D&D customers. And you can bet that Kindle 2 have disposable cash ;-}
Put out quality products and they will come...
Best regards,
John the Librarian
Here is my feedback:
I am also a Insider subscriber and the Character Builder was HUGE for me. Instead of having "10" places to look up what I need to do to level up, just follow the yellow brick road.
Here is my wish list!!
Amazon Kindle 2 - hits in a few weeks... I would LOVE to be able to easily read Dragon/Dungeon (insider, etc) all on it. (Especially if I can easily PUSH/PULL them into it automagically as an insider)
I would love even MORE to be able to buy PDFs that can easily be used in there for CORE books, etc. Might take some formatting but... 1 Kindle vs the 10 or so books in my backpack, heck ya!!
...
You guys are doing a great job, keep it up, I am getting more addicted by the day!! (I have 5-6 pre-orders ready to go on Amazon as soon as they release, including MINIS!)
I got the Kindle 2 this week and it is a huge improvement over the Kindle 1. I am a person who has been calling for reasonably priced PDFs for years; they are just too expensive for me right now. But, what I would actually much rather have is the books in Kindle format! A good price point would be $10-20 on Amazon.com. If you sell them for $10 I will buy *every* book you publish in that format! I already buy just about every print book for $20-25 that you publish on Amazon.
This morning I spent $100 on books for the Kindle 2. I would *love* to spend another $100 on D&D books. I guess you would probably have to have someone work on making the books look good in Kindle format, but I bet if you spent 40 hours on each book to create them and then 10 hours a month on *updating* them so that customers had versions with errata applied so that users would just always have the latest versions automagically downloaded to them. Well, I would be in heaven.
I really want to give you guys more money, but I want quality products in return. If you can't afford an employee to do the work... Get a Graphics Design intern to do it for free. I bet that there are plenty of people who would jump at the prospect. Heck, I would probably do it for you for free if you couldn't find someone better.
Now you might think to yourself, well it is just not worth our time, but I really think *now* is the time. So I ask you fellow D&D players, how many of you would buy Kindle versions of D&D books? Let WotC know. I would think that this has got to be more attractive to WotC than PDFs -- it has DRM built into it unlike the PDFs I bought (for *more* than the price of the physical core books).
Oh, and by the way, I have converted the core PDFs into Mobireader format and sent them to my Kindle 2. They look OK, but just OK -- you know that artwork looks pretty good on the Kindle 2. But, I would rather someone do a more professional version... I have $100 burning a hole on my Amazon credit card ;-}
And on the subject of the magazines... Wow!!! I would love to have then delivered to my Kindle 2, but for now I will go through the pain of downloading the PDFs and converting them to Kindle 2 format (mobi) and then emailing them to my Kindle. I am going to be much more like to read them on the Kindle 2.
Love the Character Builder! Good job guys. I'll expect you to deliver another quality software product when you finish it. As an ex-software developer, I know these things take time, but please don't give up.
But please explore a more substantial relationship with Amazon and the Kindle 2. The Kindle 1 sold 500,000 units -- mostly to Oprah fans ;-} But I think techies will buy the Kindle 2 and a lot of those folks are ex-/current-/potential-D&D customers. And you can bet that Kindle 2 users have disposable cash ;-}
Put out quality products and they will come...
Best regards,
John the Librarian
We haven't forgotten.
I noticed the Gametable isn't mentioned on the D&D insider page anymore. Is that project dead?
There is no official word.
I strongly believe: its coming out, the site people just don't want 3 entries on the site for late products. They likely removed the references to save face.
Part 1
Part 2
We're waiting guys...
We will stay in touch, just not on a weekly basis. [...]
Digital Insider is ending, but the conversation is just beginning.
I guess I am not the only one who can say now: "That was either a lie, or they overpromised again." Or everyone who wanted to stay in touch just fell in a coma...
FOr a good explanation of why they did this, listen to the Panel Interview/Q&A session that was held at GenghisCon. I *think* that the relevant portion is in part 2, but may be wrong.
Part 1
Part 2
Thanks MB.
I quoted the relevant section into its own thread: here
what is the e.t.a. on the game table? i keep waiting for it to come out and it hasn't shown up yet. i subscribed to insider just for it so i dont have to carry my books with me all the time.
ETA When It's Done, Duke Nukem Forever style.
I have a feeling it'll be 2010 sometime, given recent layoffs and omissions of the Game Table, Dungeon Builder and Visualizer from the DDI website entirely.
ETA When It's Done, Duke Nukem Forever style.
I have a feeling it'll be 2010 sometime, given recent layoffs and omissions of the Game Table, Dungeon Builder and Visualizer from the DDI website entirely.
I agree 100%.. Duke Nukem is'nt really being worked on either. I'm sure they'll get back to it some day....
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/58519
ETA When It's Done, Duke Nukem Forever style.
I have a feeling it'll be 2010 sometime, given recent layoffs and omissions of the Game Table, Dungeon Builder and Visualizer from the DDI website entirely.
As I understand it, they've had more people leave (unannounced) since the last round of announced layoffs.
I agree 100%.. Duke Nukem is'nt really being worked on either. I'm sure they'll get back to it some day....
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/58519
Duke Nukem is officially dead, the company (I believe 3D Realms) is no longer in business as reported today on Slashdot.
Thanks MB.
I quoted the relevant section into its own thread: here
You know what I find most interesting, this comment:
[INDENT]GK: Now speaking as an ex-Wizard's emplyee I can also tell you that you vote with your pocket book. Money does talk in that company. Ahm if you are a big fan of Forgotten Realms, buy the Forgotten Realms product. That's the best way to ensure that the campaign setting beomes healthy. If you want to see the additional tools, subscribe, enjoy what you can right now, but if no one were to subscribe... I mean its doing well but... if no one were to subscribe to the character builder and DDI right now it wouldn't be getting future resources for the "some day I'll subscribe". Money matters to the company, vote with your pocket book. It feels so good to say things like that [/INDENT]
We often think speaking with our pocketbook speaks. It does, but not always the way we think. If no one subscribes to DDi, because of the lack of the VTT, probably the whole digital department would get shut down.
When companies have multiple products, those that do well, get the most attention and money. Why? Because that's what people are buying. Companies will allways invest in those areas that...wait for it...make them more money!
Now, I'm not saying you should get a DDi subscription just to keep it afloat. But if you are interested in it, would 5-8 dollars a month hurt you? Those who answer yes, I understand, and with NO snideness intended it sounds like there are outside of DnD issues you might want to address.
If you are into these games, you are willing to spend money on non-essential items for your entertainment. So I can't see the cost being crippling. So getting a subscription, even if you only want the VTT, helps them do the following.
Hire more people back/new. More people working on the digital side of things means tools come out faster. Tools coming out faster means you get closer to getting a VTT.
I know, it sounds like, we have to pay them to MAKE the dam thing? Well, yes. Entertainment companies make new product from the money they get from people like me and you.
And who knows, maybe you will find value in what you are getting now. I certainly know the Character Builder is pretty awesome. It really is. I love that all the power cards come out with all the static math figured out for you. I mean static as stuff like combat advantage and similar bonus aren't figured in.
If you really aren't happy there is no VTT, and won't give them an extra penny until it's ready, I understand. Your angry and upset.
I don't think they deserve charity.
Either they are or aren't going to do it.
I don't think they deserve charity.
No one said anything about charity.
No one said anything about charity.
It is charity. I don't send money to a cable company I'm not subscribed to hoping they'll hook up FIOS cause I do it. Giving someone money and just hoping they'll make a product you want is charity. the VTT was part of the initial package sold with the idea of DDI back when 4th ed was released, it had huge initial interest and they squandered it. Expecting people to pay monthly for another year? two? on the off chance they make the tool they should have delivered a year ago? That fits the definition of charity. Voting with your pocketbook only applies to paying for an actual product you use.
Either they are or aren't going to do it.
I don't think they deserve charity.
I don't think that anyone is talking about charity. (Or at least I am not, I can't speak for others.) I think that the difference in people's opinions is a great deal influenced by the personality of the person and how they feel in general towards WotC, and maybe a bit on how patient they are in general. I tend to be a very patient and forgiving person. Some would say too much, but it is a part of my personality. As such, I am willing to give WotC a lot of time and latitude (rope??) to work on the tools. The quality of the Character Builder and Compendium are (to me, others may feel differently, and there is nothing wrong with that) good enough that I am wiling to allow WotC to shuffle things around.
For me, the Campaign Builder will be just as useful (if not moreso) that the VTT, so I like the fact that they will be putting it out first and are giving it attention now. I fully expect the knowledge and experience they gain from this to have only a good effect on the VTT.
That being said, there comes a point where WotC will need to "put up or shut up". For me, WotC is a *long* way from that place. However, I can easily understand how others may feel differently, and I don't begrudge them their opinion.
That being said, there comes a point where WotC will need to "put up or shut up". For me, WotC is a *long* way from that place. However, I can easily understand how others may feel differently, and I don't begrudge them their opinion.
On the one hand, I agree with Aberzanzorax - giving money to WotC because they might finish the GameTable is a foolish reason to give them money. And I think that the ex-Wizards employee who said that is recommending a foolish path, whatever his experience with Wizards.
On the other hand, I'm a happy subscriber and cheerfully pay for the stuff I'm getting right now. I'm not paying for the Table (I mean, I might be...but I'm not sending them money strictly to finish the gametable; that would be dumb).
The lesson I draw from that is: if you don't care about the stuff you can get right now (magazines, builder, etc.) or don't want any of that stuff, then you really, really should not give Wizards your money. On the other hand, if you think the builder, magazines, and other junk is worth money? Then buy it.
As far as progress on new tools goes, I'm already at the "put up or shut up" point as far as Wizards is concerned. They've filled the Internet with enough surveys, discussions, 'tell us what you thinks,' and navel-gazing that they ought to be able to move forward without handholding from the customer base. I grow bored with it - show me a prototype, or something.
But, as far as my money goes? They've put up, in the form of the Builder, the Compendium, and the Magazines.
It is charity. I don't send money to a cable company I'm not subscribed to hoping they'll hook up FIOS cause I do it. Giving someone money and just hoping they'll make a product you want is charity. the VTT was part of the initial package sold with the idea of DDI back when 4th ed was released, it had huge initial interest and they squandered it. Expecting people to pay monthly for another year? two? on the off chance they make the tool they should have delivered a year ago? That fits the definition of charity. Voting with your pocketbook only applies to paying for an actual product you use.
Voting with your pocketbook works two ways.
Lets use the internet. Right now, pricing plans are a flat rate. Pay X to get Y.
But what if your cable company announced plans to change their pricing structure. Use the internet X amount, pay Y amount. On top of that, you will get charged for going to low traffic sites. So, your time and what you look at is how you are now billed.
You let your internet provider know that if they go with this new plan, you will cancel your account and go with a different service provider.
Speaking with your money works in this case. The product/service exists, you've been using it, and now they want to change it.
If enough people threaten to discontinue service, the internet provider will change it's mind. Better to make some money, then no money.
DDi will exists, with or without the VTT, however the reverse is not true, unless WoTC resturctures thier business model and drops the idea of DDi in favore of just a VTT, which isn't going to happen.
So, DDi isn't and never was intended to be just the VTT, though it was the most dynamic and exciting aspect, for many people. Personaly going with tools to help making DMing easier, is a smart choice. The ratio of players to DM is always on the side of the players, and most of the product they make, are for the players to have more options.
But with no DM, what good are a million player options? DMs can be hard to find, and a good one even rarer. While your personal experience might be different, you might be lucky to be in a group where people take turns DMing, we can safely assume, that's not true for a majority of players. No one in my group is interested in DMing.
So if WoTC can make more people want to DM, the game grows. One new DM could equal 2-4 new players. One new player is most likely going to seek out existing players.
So back to DDi. That is the product which is comprised of several tools and features. Character Builder, Magazines, online compendium, some bonus tools, and features yet to come.
If DDi doesn't make money, then not only will the VTT never come, but all those tools go away as well. It's a total package.
In this case, the products that bring WoTC more money, get the most attention, the products that bring in the least amount of money, get dumped when the budget needs to be adjusted.
So in cases like this, when you "vote" with your pocketbook, you are basically telling WoTC, I don't want to spend money on this.
Which would be fine if the VTT wasn't tied directly to DDi. Since they are linked, all you end up doing is killing the VTT, by killing DDI.
However like I said. If all you want is the VTT, then don't subscribe. No one is asking you spend money on tools you will never use.
However, if you think that there is something of value in what DDi currently has, even though what you really want is the VTT, and $5-8 dollars isn't a hardship for you, then why not subscribe, and help the VTT become a reality faster?
Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
However, if you think that there is something of value in what DDi currently has, even though what you really want is the VTT, and $5-8 dollars isn't a hardship for you, then why not subscribe, and help the VTT become a reality faster?
That's pretty much what I'm doing, but aware of how many subscribers there actually are...well, that's why I'm saying 2010, at this point. We need more subscribers, because the more money put in, the better.
Of course, that being said, they should still be able to drop a beta version of the Visualizer on us subscribers, since it's in a workable state, and that'd attract more subscribers, which would in turn speed up development on that Visualizer as they're able to hire more staff/pay more overtime.
That's pretty much what I'm doing, but aware of how many subscribers there actually are...well, that's why I'm saying 2010, at this point. We need more subscribers, because the more money put in, the better.
Of course, that being said, they should still be able to drop a beta version of the Visualizer on us subscribers, since it's in a workable state, and that'd attract more subscribers, which would in turn speed up development on that Visualizer as they're able to hire more staff/pay more overtime.
You know, some form of Character visualizer, would be good. Now the CV to me seemed more for the VTT, a way to make an awesome, one of the kind mini to play with on the VTT. They sort of went hand in glove.
So, can they take the CV, and make it stand alone (Because I bet right now, it's tied into the VTT) so that players can make a visual representation of their character? Then export as a portrait.
I have an iPhone app that allows me to apply various styles of photography to pictures I've taken, add a filter like that. So you can have different art styles for the portrait.
I know that WoW made it so that you could have a 3D model of your character. Is that possible with this? I know it was exspensive. But wouldn't that be cool? Make your own mini for real table top.
Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Sorry, I am a DDI subscriber and I cannot get on board with that. I subscribed only after the Character Builder came out. You should never pay for something on the hopes that something that is not out yet becomes a reality or on the hopes that a company will deliver something that you are interested in. They just are not offering something that a person wants is all. When they do, hopefully that person will pay for it then.
Your cable analogy works because the cable company had a product that the customer wanted in the first place. Then they changed or took that product away (however you look at it).
Companies know that they have to put out money to create a product. They know that it doesn't work to get money first and then deliver a product to a consumer.
However, I do agree that if you find value in the offerrings right now, you should pay up. If they cannot recoup their development costs (on what they have delivered) and make money on top of that, everthing goes away.
Now if that happens, that does not mean it is the customers fault. It may mean that the product was bad or that the company was not giving their customers what they wanted.
That's pretty much what I'm doing, but aware of how many subscribers there actually are...well, that's why I'm saying 2010, at this point. We need more subscribers, because the more money put in, the better.
Of course, that being said, they should still be able to drop a beta version of the Visualizer on us subscribers, since it's in a workable state, and that'd attract more subscribers, which would in turn speed up development on that Visualizer as they're able to hire more staff/pay more overtime.
As much as I hate to say it, I don't think that they should drop a Beta on us until it is essentially in the very final bug-fixing stage. The difficulty of extracting the constructive criticism of it from the mass of "I coulda done this on my lunch-hour" and "QUIT NOW" complaints would, IMO, be far more trouble than it would be worth.
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Sorry, I am a DDI subscriber and I cannot get on board with that. I subscribed only after the Character Builder came out. You should never pay for something on the hopes that something that is not out yet becomes a reality or on the hopes that a company will deliver something that you are interested in. They just are not offering something that a person wants is all. When they do, hopefully that person will pay for it then.
Your cable analogy works because the cable company had a product that the customer wanted in the first place. Then they changed or took that product away (however you look at it).
Companies know that they have to put out money to create a product. They know that it doesn't work to get money first and then deliver a product to a consumer.
However, I do agree that if you find value in the offerrings right now, you should pay up. If they cannot recoup their development costs (on what they have delivered) and make money on top of that, everthing goes away.
Now if that happens, that does not mean it is the customers fault. It may mean that the product was bad or that the company was not giving their customers what they wanted.
I was very clear. If DDI offers you nothing you want, save the VTT, then don't subscribe. How simple can that be?
Companies do have to put up the money to develope the product. This isn't a case of, we should pay them to first make the VTT. Unfortunitly for this product, it's out and not with the VTT. Since they couldn't make it what they wanted, they lowered the costs.
I'm just saying, if DDi goes, so does any chance of the VTT.
Voting with your pocketbook in this case only tells WoTC, and Hasbro, this product doesn't make money.
The higher ups won't look and see that players aren't subscribing to DDi because of the VTT, they will just look and see it isn't making money.
And if they see it isn't making money, they won't say they need to change directions, they will cut and run. They won't care why. TRUST me. The higher ups and money men don't care if the project was mismanaged, they bit off more then they could choose or any other reasons.
That's how corporations works.
So it comes down to a choice. If all you want is the VTT, don't subscribe.
If you like what they currently offer and want the VTT, it's not hurting you to subscribe. The promise not to raise the rate when more tools come out is something you might come to appreciate later. They might also at some point reward players who have had long term subscriptions with free stuff.
So it comes down to a choice. If all you want is the VTT, don't subscribe.
I would add something to that. If all you want is the VTT, then don't subscribe, and let WotC know (by letter) that you are not subscribing because the VTT isn't out yet.
As much as I hate to say it, I don't think that they should drop a Beta on us until it is essentially in the very final bug-fixing stage. The difficulty of extracting the constructive criticism of it from the mass of "I coulda done this on my lunch-hour" and "QUIT NOW" complaints would, IMO, be far more trouble than it would be worth.
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I couldn't do the Visualizer in the state it was in at PAX '08 in my lunch-hour. I couldn't have done it in six months of dev time with another coder helping me.
I would add something to that. If all you want is the VTT, then don't subscribe, and let WotC know (by letter) that you are not subscribing because the VTT isn't out yet.
The letter is a good point. LETTER.
Companies take notice to letters these days, because of the time and energy to actually do it.
Also, leave out insults and judgements.
You would not respond well to a friend that was giving you feedback with terms like idiot, incompetent, and liar, neither will the person at WOTC that gets the letter. Just because someone works for a corporation, doesn't mean they stop being a person.
If you like what they currently offer and want the VTT, it's not hurting you to subscribe. The promise not to raise the rate when more tools come out is something you might come to appreciate later. They might also at some point reward players who have had long term subscriptions with free stuff.
Understood.
Some of your points are pet peaves of mine with companies these days. We will just leave it as that :D
Understood.
Some of your points are pet peaves of mine with companies these days. We will just leave it as that :D
Hey, I'll admit I'm dissappointed that the VTT isn't coming out. I'm sure many factors went to that happening.
Bemoaning them to death isn't going to change things. Insultes won't get my point across. Threats are often empty.
So I just take it all in stride.
Yes, the company is there to make money--I've got no problem with that. But if they want their guarantee of subscribers before deciding to complete the products, they are confusing customers with investors. We are not there to fund projects, we're there to buy products. Put up, or cut and run, but let us know one way or the other.
I was really hoping to connect with some friends that our group is geographically separated from. When and if they ever get the VTT going, I'll be back, unless I've found a different product that performs well by then.
I've been playing D&D for 22 years, and sincerely hope they can get this right.
As a side note, I'm closing this thread down. It was started in February as basic feedback. Since then we've had a few announcements about the game table and visualizer and several newer threads about the disapointment in those announcements. In the future, posting in those threads or starting a new conversation are better avenues than reviving older threads such as this.