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| #1GreysonFeb 02, 2009 10:01:08 | Hey, all. Just a few notes regarding the Thorn's Attack encounter in "Den of the Destoryer" (Dungeon 160, pgs 35-36). . . . . . . . Thorn appears to use four figurines of wondrous power in the "Thorn's Attack" encounter on page 35. It looks like the encounter assumes he uses all four simultaneously. The problem is that each action a figurine takes costs the person that conjured it a minor - in this case Thorn. So, the falcons and ironhounds do a lot of standing around, or Thorn conjures them one, maybe two at a time during the encounter. Or, Thorn stands around directing traffic - something I cannot see. Thorn seems like a mobile fighter, and may be short on spare minor actions (plus, as an elf, shouldn't his movement be 7, rather than 6?). My suggestion is that he has all of the figurines conjured before his attack, but only one joins him at a time during the fight. Thorn can "call" another one into the fight when one goes down (assuming he wants to use a minor action, or two). The others are standing and waiting just outside the battle. Another small issue is that Thorn's figurines have basic melee attacks. Figurines of wondrous power do not have basic melee attacks and cannot take opportunity attacks, according to Adventurer's Vault. Dungeon Masters may want to call both figurines' attacks plain at-wills and ignore the basic melee designations. I am gonna have Thorn attack at night, perhaps making this easier, as the party may not see the conjured creatures beyond their light. Note: I am gonna cross-post this to the Dungeon/Dragon Errata forum, too. Just so the Sage Advice Team sees the issues. |
| #2MysteriaFeb 02, 2009 12:09:43 | Where does it say that he's using figurines of wondrous power? I think that's an assumption on your part. Yes, they are natural animates just like figurines of wondrous power, but nowhere does it say that they are figurines, and they're not stated out as figurines either, so I'd say it's safe to assume that they're not intended to be figurines and should just be run as normal monsters, like a homunculus (also a small natural animate). |
| #3GreysonFeb 02, 2009 13:18:36 | Where does it say that he's using figurines of wondrous power? I think that's an assumption on your part. Thorn's figurines of wondrous power are noted as such on page 17 as treasure parcels 15/M and 16/N. They are also noted in more detail in Appendix 2: New Items on page 54. In both of the above places they are clearly called figurines of wondrous power and function as such according to their stat blocks in Appendix 2. It does not say anywhere that Thorn's figurines function differently from others. And it certainly is not stated that Thorn is not using the items listed on page 17 and 54. If they are gonna be treasure, then they should function like figurines of wondrous power. But, if they are just gonna be killed and not given as treasure, running them as normal animate monsters works fine, too, as Mysteria suggests. I guess DMs just have to decide if they want to give them as treasure or not. |
| #4MysteriaFeb 02, 2009 15:25:48 | Aha, there's the missing point. I didn't double check all of the adventure but just went to the encounter in question (thanks for giving page and issue references, btw) in which there is no mention of figurines. ![]() If you add in that info, it is indeed strange how they function. I guess you can just use some DM shenanigans and say that they were specifically attuned to Thorn so he didn't have to use minor actions but the PCs do ... But that's kind of blah. I think I'd just go with the 'they are animated monsters' approach and give him some other treasure. Especially as the fact that they have basic attacks is indeed rather strange. edit: Also, the treasure parcels note one of each statue when Thorn has two of each. |
| #5KentinalFeb 02, 2009 16:14:30 | edit: Also, the treasure parcels note one of each statue when Thorn has two of each. The other took too much damage perhaps? Overall however another indication the AP was not well planned in advance. *sighs* |
| #6paulosFeb 02, 2009 22:49:09 | I guess you can just use some DM shenanigans and say that they were specifically attuned to Thorn so he didn't have to use minor actions but the PCs do ... But that's kind of blah. Why couldn't it be that Thorn had a 'feat' of Figurine Mastery or something that allowed him to move them without minor actions. It seems he's adept (a.k.a. trained) at fighting solo with his figurines. That couldn't get someone very far in the DnD world. Maybe his training is the feat and maybe another one that allows figurines under his command to make OAs or something. I'm sure that will bring up the problem of why PCs can't then take the same feats and they might be unbalanced and so on. But it doesn't have to. Maybe a PC has to find a figurine guru to be trained for 10 years like Thorn did, and that won't happen. I'm nowhere near that adventure (beginnig SoW2 only) but I'm curious about such anomalies. Relatively new DM too btw. |
| #7MisroiFeb 03, 2009 0:18:18 | The short answer? Monsters play by different rules than PCs. The long answer? Use whatever fluff reason you prefer to make the encounter work the way it should for maximum fun. |