1) As an introduction, I used the adventure in the back of the DM guide.
2) The adv. is for 5 - 1st level PCs. We only had 3 PCs, so we rolled them up as 2nd level, but they only had basic starting gear.
3) They were a Warlock, a Cleric, and a Ranger.
4) the kids are young (11&12).
5) I wasn't trying to be merciless, and cut them some breaks, but still....
They didn't survive the first room! (3 kobold skirmishers & 2 kobold slingers, I believe).
What do you think? Were they underpowered? Did they just play them wrong? Was the mix of PCs bad (i.e. need a real fighter?)? Is it possible that we didn't calculate AC's and to-hit numbers correct?
Looking at the encounter, you can see that it's worth 500 XP, and has monsters equal to such a challenge. This is fine for a party of five 1st-level players. Since you only had three players, you bumped them up to 2nd level... but it still wasn't enough. Here's why:
Pages 56 and 57 in the DM Guide show the tables for building encounters (and how to use them). A standard level 1 encounter is worth 100 XP (the XP cost/reward of a standard level 1 monster) multiplied by the number of players in the group. A standard level 2 encounter is worth 125 XP multiplied by the number of players in your group.
A little math shows that a 500 XP encounter would have been right on par for a group of FOUR 2nd-level players, and was a little more challenging for three players.
So really, it wasn't necessarily anything you or your players did, it was just that five monsters was a bit more than three 2nd-level players can generally handle, especially if they're younger and/or new to the game. That said, your party also consisted of two strikers and a leader; a defender class (like a fighter) probably would have been a big help when you consider his higher-on-average defense numbers and ability to mark targets.
Hope this helps!
Take away 1 skirmisher and 1 slinger and it's back to a 100 XP per character fight, and much more survivable.
Second, I agree that skipping a defender in the group is a bad idea. They should have had a fighter or paladin along.
Third, 4th edition requires good group tactics and smart play. In 3.5 you could run into a room with 5 kobolds and they would barely slow you down long enough to swing your weapons. In 4th its a major fight. If they didn't play smart even an even level encounter could go south on them. Focus fire, work together, help each other. Good group dynamics will win the day, lack of cooperation can doom you.
As far as the question of getting the number right, I can't tell you for sure. Review the rules carefully and go over the character sheets to make sure you have everything figured out correctly.
A common error, however, is starting hit points. You did catch that starting hit points is base plus constitution score, not constitution modifier, right? That would make a gigantic difference. Even without cutting a monster from the encounter thats only level +1 for second level characters. That should be a significant fight, but unless they had incredible bad luck I don't think it should be a TPK.
uhmmm hp = base + con score?!?! I missed that... Huge difference! I looked at it several times in the book - I kept double-checking that you don't add your con bonus onto your hp when you level up - but still never noticed!
I guess I have to flush all that 3.5 data out before the 4e stuff will really stick! Same goes for assumptions about 'easy' kobold encounters!
(don't have book here) If it's linear, then a 4th-level PC is 175 xp, so 3*175 = 525 xp.
Big difference between 3-4th level PCs with all the fixings a 4th level char has, and 3-2nd level PCs with 1st-level gear & a 10pt hp handicap! Oh my, poor kids never had a chance....
Thanks all for the help!
uhmmm hp = base + con score?!?! I missed that... Huge difference! I looked at it several times in the book - I kept double-checking that you don't add your con bonus onto your hp when you level up - but still never noticed!
I guess I have to flush all that 3.5 data out before the 4e stuff will really stick! Same goes for assumptions about 'easy' kobold encounters!
(don't have book here) If it's linear, then a 4th-level PC is 175 xp, so 3*175 = 525 xp.
Big difference between 3-4th level PCs with all the fixings a 4th level char has, and 3-2nd level PCs with 1st-level gear & a 10pt hp handicap! Oh my, poor kids never had a chance....
If at all possible could a cpl of the kids play 2 chars to bring it up to 5?
Yeah, I did a double take trying to figure out why the example adventurers in the Shadowfell module had the characters with such high HP and couldn't figure out why till I re-read the character creation section of the PHB.
I actually ran the same dungeon this past weekend for my group. I have 4 PCs and decided to not remove an enemy per encounter, but rather give them a level 1 Wizard as a 5th NPC helper. They actually enjoy the interaction with NPC helpers from time to time, so it did not take away from the flavor of the encounters in the slightest I simply told them that the High Septarch that sent you on the quest lends you the aid of his apprentice... blah blah...
I ran that dungeon crawl for the same reason, just to jump the party into a new 4e campaign and see how it goes because we have just now decided to try one and are still currently having fun with a 3.5 campaign.
I found the dungeon to be way too easy for 5 characters that know what they are doing, but I suppose that was the feel of a first level crawl. You can make a few mistakes and still come out alive. Later levels will not be so lucky...
By the way... The class Roles. Controller, Striker etc.... I have found small tweaks will make one or two of them effectively two different class roles like multi-classing would. Make the cleric a battle cleric and have the character take feats in armor proficiencies to get even better AC. You now have a capable healer and someone who can take and deal some hits when necessary as well. Fey Pact is an enormous help if you don't have a tank to keep the enemies off the lock. Every time you down a foe that he cursed, he teleports and with a feat he can teleport 5 squares. A warlock that almost always cannot be touched.
I would like to chalk that encounter up to luck in the DMs favor. I know that with the right tactics, those three could have murdered those 5 Kobolds, but it would require the right builds to compliment each other and the right tactics in battle. Hitting those low defense buggers didn't even require better than average roles, so it was just bad luck I feel.
a dwarven Paladin (gonna go hosp. with him)
an eladrin wizard
and a tiefling rogue
The eladrin wizard isn't doing too well. First room he was one save away from dying. The rest are doing a bit better, but still extremely challenging. I don't really think we're going to make it *crosses fingers* (we're playing straight from the book, no extras or taking away of enemies).
Also, second level characters don't start with basic gear. They each should start with three magic items (levels 3, 2, and 1) and 360gp worth of equipment.
Umm, no. They should have that many magic items between them, not that many each, had they adventured through first level and received treasure packets in line with the DMG's recommendations.
Umm, no. They should have that many magic items between them, not that many each, had they adventured through first level and received treasure packets in line with the DMG's recommendations.
Not according to the DMG, page 147 under "Starting at Higher Level." Item 7 reads:
Choose Equipment and Magic Items. Mundane equipment is much less important for higherlevel characters than it is when you’re starting out. Choose whatever standard adventuring gear you want from the tables in the Player’s Handbook. For magic items, choose one item of your level + 1, one item of your level, and one item of your level – 1. In addition, you have gold pieces equal to the value of one magic item of your level – 1. You can spend this money on rituals, potions, or other magic items, or save it for later.
Mind you, this is intended, really, for re-rolling a character after one has died and putting them back into a group that's 5th+, but the rules do clearly show that it's far more powerful to create a 2nd level character than to level up to two.
Not according to the DMG, page 147 under "Starting at Higher Level." Item 7 reads:
Mind you, this is intended, really, for re-rolling a character after one has died and putting them back into a group that's 5th+, but the rules do clearly show that it's far more powerful to create a 2nd level character than to level up to two.
Needless to say, I view that as a bug, not a feature. For one thing, it's a disincentive to keep your character alive.
Needless to say, I view that as a bug, not a feature. For one thing, it's a disincentive to keep your character alive.
I think it's intended to help you replace a PC around, say 5th level and up.
It wouldn't take much arm-bending for me to see/agree it's broken for levels 2,3, and 4.
In a home game, I'd probably alter that to 1 of equal or lesser level at 2. 1 equal or 2 @ -1level at 3, and 2 equal or 3 -1 at 4. (And all subject to DM review, plus I'm tired right now, so I might even reconsider in the morning).
From 5 on I'd apply the rules as written.
Still, with that limited "broken" range, I think overall it's a good "leg-up kit" to help "new" characters in established campaigns.
One thing to note, that while you threw a 500 xp encounter at them when 375 was closer to an even fight, 450 xp is only level+1 and still in the "standard" fight range. 525 would be level+2 and a "hard" fight (expect some dailies/action points to get consumed). So don't feel too bad. A lot of times I see the first encounter in 4E going south, mostly due to not recognizing the importance of team synergy, or misconceptions as to what actually creates synergy.
My experience in the Scales of War loosely knit campaign (I just can't bring myself to call it an Adventure Path anymore) is that encounters are generally more difficult and require greater tactical skill.
We've had three near TPKs (see my wiki http://scalesofwar.wikispaces.com/ for details).
The larger number of enemies force the party into more tactical situations. I don't want to tell you how to play but you might consider giving your young players (and, by the way, great job in bringing new people to this wonderful hobby of ours) some tips.
1) Concentrate your attacks on a single foe if possible.
2) Attack easy to kill foes first as the damage they do is usually proportionally higher to the amount of rounds it takes to drop them. Ie 30 hp AC 20 1d8+4 five hits to kill, minion 1 hp AC 15 1d8+1 one hit to kill.
3) Keep range weapon users and spellcasters occupied so they can't concentrate on your must vulnerable character.
4) Try and plan out tactics before the battle if possible.
Good luck,
Tom
1) As an introduction, I used the adventure in the back of the DM guide.
2) The adv. is for 5 - 1st level PCs. We only had 3 PCs, so we rolled them up as 2nd level, but they only had basic starting gear.
3) They were a Warlock, a Cleric, and a Ranger.
4) the kids are young (11&12).
5) I wasn't trying to be merciless, and cut them some breaks, but still....
As a fellow DM, I can relate to this (our first fight was tough also). Here's a few pointers:
1) The adventure int eh back of the DMG is perfect, othign wrong with that.
2) The level to characters present ratio is tough. mabye should have thrown them one magic item...? not sure there myself
3) Tanks are essential! I don't know if you play any MMORG's, but most every class (with mabye the exception of missing a controller or one striker) is needed.
4) Nothing wrong with age! Me and my friends are all 14, so I can relate to frustration at the table.
5) NO MERCY!!! Kidding, I usually play mercilessly, haha.
Hope this helps.