So I just checked out the beta for the new monster builder. Having just played around with it for 15 minutes or so, I can sum up my initial impression in two words: Massive Disappointment.
I have really been looking forward to seeing a reworked monster builder, and this is absolutely awful. I am actually heartbroken. I'll try to keep my comments brief and constructive.
The Good
- It has new monsters.
The Bad
- The OMB (and Compendium for that matter) allowed me to copy and paste the statblock into a word document. This is absolutely critical for me, as I do not use a computer at the table.
- There is virtually no customization capability for the monsters; all I can do is rename the monster and the abilities, and adjust the level. I can't change the damage type, damage dice (which as I'll explain is necessary), or rhe effects.
- When leveling a monster the damage dice seem to remain static, only adjusting the damage modifier. This completely ignores the updated damage by level rules, which I use as a guideline for leveling monsters.
- Unless I am missing something, there is no way to create a new monster (barring renaming an existing one).
- There is no way to swap powers from other monsters or alternate powers from the Draconomicons or Open Grave.
- Still no ability to add templates.
- You cannot change a monster's secondary role to Elite or Solo.
The Ugly
- Some of the filters do no align correctly, making is look a bit sloppy.
I'll probably play around with it a bit more this weekend, and I'll post any additional thoughts I have.
This program should be a Monster BUILDER. That implies a certain degree of customization. It's gotta be there. WotC, you need to fix this before release.
How many months has it been since the old MB was updated? And I don't mean the last one that fixed very little and removed a lot of monster data.
If this doesn't change before release, it has epic fail written all over it.
Right now it is truly a shell with no bells and whistles. I was a least accepting export and level up capabilities. I played with it for about ten minutes and shut it down. Not many bugs to report because there is not much to it.
I can´t say more then that I agree with everything you stated in your first post Osgood. It´s a work in progress sure. But the total lack of customization features came as a shock to me. I had high hopes for WOTC to turn a new page after the lackluster online characterbuilder but after this. Heck, I don´t know. At least it´s still beta. But without any upcoming additions to the original monsterbuilder, who still suffers from a lot of bugs after the latest update I might add, this is what we get for our subscription money.
It's simply a start. You can't do much with it at all though. But it is totally stable as far as I can see. It's not quick but not as slow as the OCB was at release. You can level up monsters and change their power names. That's it.
It's not able to do all that the CMB does. So what? It's just there so that 500+ (not sure how many beta testers there are) can hammer on it.
It doesn't really give you much yet and I'm sure that people will have a quick play and then leave it alone as you can't actually achieve anything with it so far. But it is there as a placeholder and they can then start to add functionality piece by piece.
With the VT they have been very good at listening to what we ask for and adding that functionality to the VT. And the upgrades have come almost weekly. If they take the same approach with the MB and the rest of the Adventure Tools it will be very good.
Yet some people will still bleat.
Someone needs to tell them the difference between alpha and beta.
Is there a definition?
Someone needs to tell them the difference between alpha and beta.
Is there a definition?
yeah, alpha is when it runs. It will crash a lot and it will not have many features coded in yet. Beta is when all of the features are programmed in and most of the big deal breaker bugs are hammered out. Kinda what the OCB is since the newest update (well they are still missing many basic features).
Oh and can you at least Print from it? I saw a preview button on the screen shot but no print button.
Some people are never happy.
And some people always are apparently.
It's simply a start.
Unfortunately, but really they should have it finished before you replace the existing working (until they broke it) software.
It's not able to do all that the CMB does. So what?
Because they haven't updated that for months although people have been paying for it all that time, and from the sounds of it, it is still months away from being in a remotely useful state.
Someone needs to tell them the difference between alpha and beta.
Is there a definition?
yeah, alpha is when it runs. It will crash a lot and it will not have many features coded in yet. Beta is when all of the features are programmed in and most of the big deal breaker bugs are hammered out. Kinda what the OCB is since the newest update (well they are still missing many basic features).
This.
If this MB is, in fact, a beta, and all you can do is change the levels and names of things, I would hate to be WotC right now.
More likely, however, this is actually an alpha, and they don't actually know the difference, and just think "beta test" is a marketing term for "free demo of unfinished software!"
Someone needs to tell them the difference between alpha and beta.
Is there a definition?
Yes. A beta has something for the beta testers to actually test.
Specifically in a Monster Builder one would assume you could actually build monsters on some sort of level.
It would be entirely different if they were still supporting the old MB but they arent.
But perhaps they are too busy not making Dragon and Dungeon articles to get actual features into their software.
I think the key point here is that it is NOT a beta of the online MB. It is a beta of the VTT. They are giving access to the alpha online MB because they have the monster integration coded in for testing. If it were a beta of the online MB then we'd have had a post from Trevor and all DDI members would have access. It is way too soon to be making most of these comments.
This is an interesting pov and after reflection, one that I agree with. The monster builder was released in the context of the VTT.
Though I can certainly understand being frustrated by the lack of a real working monster builder after all these months.
It's simply a start.
Beta is more than "a start."
This news does not even surprise me. It's pretty much on par with my newly lowered expectations of WotC and DDI. More like expectations that have been obliterated out of the sky.
I think the key point here is that it is NOT a beta of the online MB. It is a beta of the VTT. They are giving access to the alpha online MB because they have the monster integration coded in for testing. If it were a beta of the online MB then we'd have had a post from Trevor and all DDI members would have access. It is way too soon to be making most of these comments.
This is an interesting pov and after reflection, one that I agree with. The monster builder was released in the context of the VTT.
Though I can certainly understand being frustrated by the lack of a real working monster builder after all these months.
yeah, that's my thought to, they are more interested in getting it intergrated into the VT before adding more customization features to it.
As it stands now, it's not customizable at all, and before it's released to the public, is HAS to be.
I'll be back in a year or so - either for 5th Edition, or at least a functional online suite.
I think the key point here is that it is NOT a beta of the online MB. It is a beta of the VTT. They are giving access to the alpha online MB because they have the monster integration coded in for testing. If it were a beta of the online MB then we'd have had a post from Trevor and all DDI members would have access. It is way too soon to be making most of these comments.
There is no integration with the VTT, though, as far as I know (from all reports, you can change the level of a monster, and rename its powers, and that's pretty much it - I have not heard that there's any way to make a monster for the VTT with it).
So unless I just misunderstood your comment, they don't actually have any integration code for testing yet, either, just a Monster Leveler.
Beta is more than "a start."
I have to say I agree with this. Or rather, no matter what they call this, how can this be a start? There's no mystery to this: they had a working, effective, and popular tool on which to base their work, and it should not seem like they're feeling their way along here. I personally believe we all cut them far too much slack on this; for myself, I expect a certain level of feature parity before it's even worth looking at.
There is no integration with the VTT, though, as far as I know (from all reports, you can change the level of a monster, and rename its powers, and that's pretty much it - I have not heard that there's any way to make a monster for the VTT with it).
So unless I just misunderstood your comment, they don't actually have any integration code for testing yet, either, just a Monster Leveler.
First: The announcement of the "beta MB" was in relation to the VTT. There was much moaning and groaning about how not all DDI members would get access to the "beta" which proves this point.
Second: Integration code does not have to be in the MB. Since I'm not in the VTT beta I can't speak to this, but I find it likely that the VTT integrates to the MB database. There is probably a new feature of the VTT that allows you to "browse for creature". They're not going to make you "export" a VTT token from the MB and then import it from your local HD. That just doesn't make sense. The VTT needs to be self contained. You go to the MB when you want to edit/create a custom creature (by all accounts you can't do this yet - it's not a finished product) and then from the VTT you can browse to that creature and create a "token" from it.
That would have went well...
The scary thing is that, as of December, they were considering launching this thing for the public. Rembmer Trevors posts saying they were hoping to get it out by the end of the month.
That would have went well...
And yet they chose not to release it.... Can we imply from this that they are learning from us the community what not to do?
The scary thing is that, as of December, they were considering launching this thing for the public. Rembmer Trevors posts saying they were hoping to get it out by the end of the month.
That would have went well...
And yet they chose not to release it.... Can we imply from this that they are learning from us the community what not to do?
Possibly. I notice that the news on this product is met, at worst, with a bit of occasional snark as opposed to the category 4 ****storm that the release of the OCB brought to the forum. I can only hope that they notice the same thing.
I can see how it'd be a let-down for people who were hoping for a fully-functional, integrated MB to work with the VT, but from what I've heard I'd say they made exactly the right call.
Sounds to me like they did exactly what they needed to do with the online MB: release it to a closed beta group to start looking for bugs and issues, as well as get feature requests, while they continue developing the intended features.
I can see how it'd be a let-down for people who were hoping for a fully-functional, integrated MB to work with the VT, but from what I've heard I'd say they made exactly the right call.
I would expect it have at least ability to customize the monsters. Seriously at this point all you can do is level them up or down, and then rename the powers.
You can't alter anything else.
The scary thing is that, as of December, they were considering launching this thing for the public. Rembmer Trevors posts saying they were hoping to get it out by the end of the month.
That would have went well...
And yet they chose not to release it.... Can we imply from this that they are learning from us the community what not to do?
Or that it is not even close to being ready for public consumption.
The scary thing is that, as of December, they were considering launching this thing for the public. Rembmer Trevors posts saying they were hoping to get it out by the end of the month.
That would have went well...
And yet they chose not to release it.... Can we imply from this that they are learning from us the community what not to do?
Or that it is not even close to being ready for public consumption.
I thought that was implied. "It's not ready for public consumption, therefore we choose not to release it for public consumption." Followed by the observation that they are possibly learning.
Sounds to me like they did exactly what they needed to do with the online MB: release it to a closed beta group to start looking for bugs and issues, as well as get feature requests, while they continue developing the intended features.
I can see how it'd be a let-down for people who were hoping for a fully-functional, integrated MB to work with the VT, but from what I've heard I'd say they made exactly the right call.
I would expect it have at least ability to customize the monsters. Seriously at this point all you can do is level them up or down, and then rename the powers.
You can't alter anything else.
Expectations are like opinions. Everybody has one. If my theory is correct then this is not a beta of the MB as I already stated. It's a new feature of the VTT. You're in the beta Dane. Am I right about some new feature to import creatures?
Expectations are like opinions. Everybody has one.
Wait...you are serious here?
Really?
It would be like beta testing the CB and only being able to level up the PC without editing options and saying "Well, we didn't think people wanted to select feats or powers for their PC's"
Seriously. The Monster BUILDER should have been expected to at least offer most of the usability of the previous tool, not none of the usability. If the damage doesn't even scale right then the software is almost useless...
Second: Integration code does not have to be in the MB. Since I'm not in the VTT beta I can't speak to this, but I find it likely that the VTT integrates to the MB database. There is probably a new feature of the VTT that allows you to "browse for creature". They're not going to make you "export" a VTT token from the MB and then import it from your local HD. That just doesn't make sense. The VTT needs to be self contained. You go to the MB when you want to edit/create a custom creature (by all accounts you can't do this yet - it's not a finished product) and then from the VTT you can browse to that creature and create a "token" from it.
I'm part of the VT Beta (and the AT beta, though it appears that beta testers who are not also subscribers cannot access the Monster Builder). From what I can see searching through the various VT options, menus, and functions it does not at this time offer a means to retrieve/import a creature from the MB.
It's not a beta of a new feature of the VT, or at least, it is not presented as such.
Sounds to me like they did exactly what they needed to do with the online MB: release it to a closed beta group to start looking for bugs and issues, as well as get feature requests, while they continue developing the intended features.
I can see how it'd be a let-down for people who were hoping for a fully-functional, integrated MB to work with the VT, but from what I've heard I'd say they made exactly the right call.
I would expect it have at least ability to customize the monsters. Seriously at this point all you can do is level them up or down, and then rename the powers.
You can't alter anything else.
Expectations are like opinions. Everybody has one. If my theory is correct then this is not a beta of the MB as I already stated. It's a new feature of the VTT. You're in the beta Dane. Am I right about some new feature to import creatures?
Only they said they were releasing the AT to beta test before attempting to connect it to the VT. So I don't think it's to much to expect that the MB do what it's meant to do, which is to customize monsters. Even the first launch of the offline MB did that.
Oh and can you at least Print from it? I saw a preview button on the screen shot but no print button.
You can print from the preview screen... and it retains the format... now if I could just get 4 to a sheet...
The import works fine; of course, the "classic" monster builder has some data loss bugs that will never be patched, so creating something in the old tool and importing it to the online one is a crapshoot.
Its viewer functionality is missing a few things (filter by level range, and copy to clipboard in RTF or image format being two biggies), but what there is has worked for me without a hiccup so far.
6/10 in its current incarnation; what there is works well, but there are large gaps in functionality.
So, uh, why aren't they updating the old MB with bug fixes and content before they can publish this new one? It's not like Microsoft stops supporting the newest Windows version as soon as they begin developing the next one.
Hasbro said in Q2 2010 that their layoffs in Q3 and Q4 would be more signifigant than expected (ie, they had already planned to fire people, but then they decided to fire more) We don't have any idea how many poeple that translates into for WotC specifially, but I assume they are not immune to the purge.
Do you think WotC took their losses out on Pokemon? What about MtG? Right...
Based on what were seeing (OCB 3 months late and still unfinished 2 months later, MB going on 1 month past planned release and is in an alpha stage, massive magezine content reductions, etc.) I doubt DDI still has the resources to finish the online MB in any fashion. We'll get a "We didn't want to release a product that wasn't going to live up to our expectations." and it will become vaporware. VTT is mostly (read: almost entirely) being developed by a third party, is almost done, and whatever money they've committed to it is as good as spent: the VTT will come out, but there will be no MB to go with it.
Likely the reason they're having this "beta test" is to show us all how bad it is so nobody can blame them for not releasing it.
So, uh, why aren't they updating the old MB with bug fixes and content before they can publish this new one? It's not like Microsoft stops supporting the newest Windows version as soon as they begin developing the next one.
Hasbro said in Q2 2010 that their layoffs in Q3 and Q4 would be more signifigant than expected (ie, they had already planned to fire people, but then they decided to fire more) We don't have any idea how many poeple that translates into for WotC specifially, but I assume they are not immune to the purge.
Do you think WotC took their losses out on Pokemon? What about MtG? Right...
Based on what were seeing (OCB 3 months late and still unfinished 2 months later, MB going on 1 month past planned release and is in an alpha stage, massive magezine content reductions, etc.) I doubt DDI still has the resources to finish the online MB in any fashion. We'll get a "We didn't want to release a product that wasn't going to live up to our expectations." and it will become vaporware. VTT is mostly (read: almost entirely) being developed by a third party, is almost done, and whatever money they've committed to it is as good as spent: the VTT will come out, but there will be no MB to go with it.
Likely the reason they're having this "beta test" is to show us all how bad it is so nobody can blame them for not releasing it.
Wrong about the Online Monster Builder, and they only had an outside company develope the frame work, they are doing the rest of the VT themselves. The fact they were allowed to spend money like that is actually a good sign.
Wrong about the Online Monster Builder, and they only had an outside company develope the frame work, they are doing the rest of the VT themselves. The fact they were allowed to spend money like that is actually a good sign.
You belive I'm wrong, but neither of us is sure. If it comes out of beta, you're right. If it doesn't, I am.
Wrong about the Online Monster Builder, and they only had an outside company develope the frame work, they are doing the rest of the VT themselves. The fact they were allowed to spend money like that is actually a good sign.
You belive I'm wrong, but neither of us is sure. If it comes out of beta, you're right. If it doesn't, I am.
Well, I'm in the beta, and I don't think you are or are you?
Being in the beta gives you more information and understanding of what's going on with those particular things you are being asked to beta.
So, my belife is backed up with something more then, uh...hmmm...since I can't say anything nice, I guess I'll just leave it at that.
the biggest thing scaring me though is i found 3 monsters in 5 minutes with information missing fro stat blocks, both damage and attacks. i saw threads about more. monster data stuff or it disappearing was one of the things that never got fixed on the old one, and to start with monsters missing data (from the monster vault even, a new product), well it makes me feel like this is going to be a slower process that i had hoped
that being said it has potential to be wonderful so its just a matter of time. how much time i have no idea
I like the interface, except for small niggly bits like the impossiblity(well, at least as I could see) to unchoose a filter(once you have decided to filter by something, you have to keep filtering by it). It isn't, however, a tool that I can use for customising and printing out monsters for use yet. I still use an old version of masterplan along with the libraries I still have from that for this, as it is much easier to use.
That a free tool developed in some guy's basement is easier to use than their version, should have been a bit of a wake-up call, back when they decided to C&D the gu ys behind masterplan. Still, it IS early days yet, and I do believe it will get better. Until then, however, I am going to stick with old 3rd party tools.
I am working on an adventure encounter on the VT, and I am using the Compendium for my Monster compiling and importing.. by importing, I mean C&Ping into the appropriate monster stat areas.
In it's current state, the Beta (which is still a 0.x version, not even a 1.x, so maybe Alpha is more appropriate) is nothign more than a viewer that lets you view monsters at differing levels than what they are published under.
I do have hopes that it will improve as they compile suggestions and work on them. Even the VT has had a few improvements made, and the CB has had exporting added, and they are working on a "classic" character sheet instead of the stupid Essentials version. . . I ran a Dark Sun game the other night, and loaded up the CB to help the group make some characters, and none of the numbers show the calculations how they derived those numbers.. yet there is a space with "calculations" printed in the space. . go figure.
While kenjoon, earlier, was not correct about the integration being present from the VT side yet, I expect it will appear reasonably soon in much the manner kenjoon suggested - a button or import option like "Get Monster from Adventure Tools."
We are talking about the same guys who released the CB in embarrassingly bad shape in November AS A FINAL PRODUCT! Explaining to them what a beta or alpha or high school programming homework assignment consists of is not likely to sink in.
I didn't like how they released the CB, but they did make it clear, it wasn't a final product. That a lot of features would come back over several months.
I disagree with doing it that way.
We are talking about the same guys who released the CB in embarrassingly bad shape in November AS A FINAL PRODUCT! Explaining to them what a beta or alpha or high school programming homework assignment consists of is not likely to sink in.
Well I think the developers MIGHT know what they are doing, maybe. The pushing out the OCB in that shape was probably a management decision. I joke that the conversation went like this:
Manager "You need to make an online only Character Builder so we can stop piracy"
Lead Programmer "(Snicker) Stop piracy sure (Snicker) Ok, we'll start planning it, get everyones input and design and develop it carefully and to its full potential design with future add-ons and changes in mind"
Manager "Oh, did I mention you have 3 months to pull it off?"
The problem was most certainly not just the missing features. There were hundreds of bugs.
And there was NO testing to speak of despite claims from WOTC to the contrary.
And even though glaring bugs were revealed in screen shots PRIOR to the release, the team didn't have pride or skill enough to at least correct those stupid bugs. This fact alone caused me to lose all respect for the programming team.
And that is where things stand now for me. The CB mostly works now for my purposes but I don't expect much out of the team. It's simpler that way.
I probably should have said "shipping product."
The problem was most certainly not just the missing features. There were hundreds of bugs.
And there was NO testing to speak of despite claims from WOTC to the contrary.
And even though glaring bugs were revealed in screen shots PRIOR to the release, the team didn't have pride or skill enough to at least correct those stupid bugs. This fact alone caused me to lose all respect for the programming team.
And that is where things stand now for me. The CB mostly works now for my purposes but I don't expect much out of the team. It's simpler that way.
I do agree with you there. Regardless of who is at fault. I no longer expect anything from WotC or any corporate entity at this point...
So... not at all useful to me. It's basically the compendium, with some pluses and minuses. But then, I don't have a problem with the offline Monster Builder and plan to use that for the foreseeable future.
The tools are released to a small group of people and they haven't said there aren't more features planned. One of the objectives of this test is to implement the connectivity with the VT tools.
It's easier to test things step by step.
First you release the tool as a viewer and level adjuster. See if it gathers the data well (it has some missing data), then you make the data accessible from VT.
When all this work, you implement customization.
Then release to public.
They can have the code for customization done already, but on isolated modules. Or not, nobody knows, so ... calm down, take a chair, grab some popcorns, and look at the forum drama.
As do I.. and while I am working on my VT Table Dark Sun game, I am using the Compendium, and not the online AT, to find my creatures so I can C&P them into my appropriate VT windws. . .
I certainly hope that when the OMB beta receives it's first update that we will have very good news to report in the form of many new features from the CMB.
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Please return discussion to the topic of the thread, or it may need to be closed.
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Did I miss something? I mean, DDXP was pretty far away, so I couldn't hear what they've bee nsaying there, but on the Internet I have seen not announcement for any AT beta so far nor anything else helpfull. What is this? Clsoed beta as with the VT? Is there a possibility to apply? Be so kind and don't let my die dumb.
Here is the AT beta announcement .
Here is where to sign up. If that link doesn't work then you can find the link the FAQ.
I still use an old version of masterplan along with the libraries I still have from that for this, as it is much easier to use.
That a free tool developed in some guy's basement is easier to use than their version, should have been a bit of a wake-up call, back when they decided to C&D the guys behind masterplan. Still, it IS early days yet, and I do believe it will get better. Until then, however, I am going to stick with old 3rd party tools.
+1 for Masterplan!
I use it each week to run 4e.
I just placed the group against some tainted/twisted Centaurs.
Pulled up 6 different Centaurs and spent a couple of minutes editing their powers, etc to be shadow based and all dark and evil.
Very easy to use.
Last version before the library connection was dropped.
Oh and don't forget iPlay4e and the connection you can use with Masterplan to import an iPlay4e whole party! Epic!
Regards
Here is the AT beta announcement .Here is where to sign up. If that link doesn't work then you can find the link the FAQ.
Thank you
Here is the AT beta announcement .Here is where to sign up. If that link doesn't work then you can find the link the FAQ.
Thank you
You're welcome.
Joe
In WotCs case, I would think it would be fairly easy since the product is online and purchased online, to include the EULA prior to purchase thus removing what is apparently a severe hurdle to enforcement in U.S. Courts. WotCs very liberal refund policy may also mitigate this risk to some extent.
After recently disagreeing with kenjoon, I now have to agree. Nothing wrong with one account being used to manage all the players of one group so long as the password isn't shared.
Well sir, I have to agree with you on this topic as well. I know we have differing opinions on some things, but we seem to have hit the same stride here.
I am going to add to this by suggesting that they have a multi-user account setup. I also see the need for a price update too though with that. Having a $5.95/month fee for one user, and maybe $24.95/month for five accounts created at the same time, using an invite type system or something similar. This way, people might be inclined to sign up with their own stuff. It keeps people from sharing accounts, etc.
I have had this in mind for sometime, because of the whole family plan talk way back when this started. I can't see having three accounts in my house for my family without some kind of discount. That would be like having to subscribe to the old printed mags three times.
Orc_Ertai
i dont want to be overly negative about the new mb so ill start w a positive. i like the interface and look of it better than the old one. that said, there are obvious features that arent there yet and will of course be added eventually, but without export it is kind of useless right now for my home game
My question is: Are they really going make it better or just give us a bare minimum and call it good? Something tells me that choosing to make these tools online has really limited their ability to have alot of versatility. So we might get that 8th level Kobold with a 1d6+12 attack instead of a 3d6+6.