Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zaukrie Jan 05, 2009 9:49:49	Well, that seems light to me. Five articles. One of them is on races we've already had seperate articles on. Bad trend, very bad trend.
#2 Cinnibar Jan 05, 2009 9:57:09	Well, that seems light to me. Five articles. One of them is on races we've already had seperate articles on. Bad trend, very bad trend. +1 Content has dropped off dramatically since the free issues. We pay, we get less?
#3 kave99 Jan 05, 2009 14:41:31	odd that, not a vary good plan I'd say.
#4 Arawn76 Jan 05, 2009 14:45:05	What's the page count/article size? Lets wait and see what we're getting before the negativity starts.
#5 zaukrie Jan 05, 2009 18:44:54	I don't care if there are 200 pages, if it is all one article. Now that a different version is up, it might be 6 articles. It's an issue of risk. If they have few articles, and I don't like 1, I'm out a higher percentage than if they have 8 or 10 articles. Page count was down in December, as has already been shown in previous threads.
#6 citan Jan 06, 2009 4:57:20	I cancelled my subscription to show WotC that I don't want to be treated like this. The silence on this subject from WotC is even more frustrating. I hope more people are going to cancel their subscriptions to set a sign. If they had'nt showed us those glorious issues of Dragon Magazine before the subscription period began, we won't be angry about the low pagecount, but now they have this mess of unsatisfied customers and have to deal with it.
#7 sijal Jan 06, 2009 7:37:55	Do you really think that they care?? seriously. In the past, has WotC or hasbro or anyone ever taken to listening to the customer, or providing even the smalles ammount of decent customer service? All of WotC's digital products fail or are buggy as all hell as to be nearly unplayable(useable). You people still dont get it. They got their money. Have they made a profit off of 4e? Yes.. why? because they got you with good advertising. you bought the core books, you bought the subscription (most of you for an extended period) You bought a overbloated promise of what was supposto be, and are JUST NOW feeling ripped off. When five months ago you should have been feeling ripped off and NOT buying anything. WotC has nothing. we are apparently less than a month away from release of the character generator, and they STILL wont give a definate date. When was the last time you saw a software company NOT give a target release date less than a month before they were to release a product.. Oh yeah NEVER! You fed the WotC machine.
#8 zaukrie Jan 06, 2009 8:43:04	I disagree. I do think they listen to the fans, I think that's obvious from some of the changes around here. They aren't perfect at communicating and relating to their fans, but they are better. I don't think their products are buggy at all. Having studied six sigma process improvement and statistics at the master's level, I'm well aware of the bugginess in these systems. The ratio is actually pretty low given the opportunities.
#9 VerysArkon Jan 07, 2009 14:37:22	Also disappointed by the lowered article count. I was willing to accept December as an odd aberration, or a hick-up due to holidays and such. Two months in a row is a VERY bad trend. The page count for last month (Dec.) was a little more than half of the first paid issue. I won't have such an issue with five articles if the page count comes in at 80+ pages. I think it is time Chris Youngs, as editor, delivers what was promised during the promotional period, or explain why there is such a noticeable discrepancy. Lets hope getting more external writers involved, which he mentions in his last 'editorial', helps the situation. Verys.
#10 Artifact Jan 07, 2009 17:22:48	There's a few articles I'm looking forward to in the January Dragon: Hestevar. This is another planar city; if it's anything like the Mithrendain article in Dragon #366, then I'll be happy. I really like the new cosmology. Acererak. This compliments Vecna's appearance in Open Grave this month; both are classic D&D villains. And of course, there's the Sorcerer preview ;). I'm really, really anxious for even a taste of this class. No matter how much I would like to, I won't be buying the January Dragon unfortunately. I'm too concerned that I won't be able to cancel auto-renew on a monthly subscription (apparently, online cancelation has been "loopy" lately). I've considered a 3-month or 12-month subscription; that way, having auto-renew canceled is less of a concern. This is not really an attractive option for me though; even when Dragon was in print, I bought issues monthly (year after year), annual subscriptions never interested me. I'm gonna wait until the cancelation process has been automated. If and when that happens, I'll be happy to buy again.
#11 Negflar2099 Jan 07, 2009 18:26:38	You bought a overbloated promise of what was supposto be, and are JUST NOW feeling ripped off. When five months ago you should have been feeling ripped off and NOT buying anything. WotC has nothing. we are apparently less than a month away from release of the character generator, and they STILL wont give a definate date. When was the last time you saw a software company NOT give a target release date less than a month before they were to release a product.. Oh yeah NEVER! You fed the WotC machine. I don't even know where to begin. First all I would politely suggest that you please don't talk down to people. It's not a good way to get your point across. I don't feel cheated or robbed. I like 4e. Not because I'm some WoTC apologist or I love everything they make. I genuinely enjoy this game. That doesn't make me an idiot or a fool as some people seem to think. Second of all WoTC is not a software company. The character builder, the game table, the visualizer, these are not the products WotC is producing here. At best they are add ons to the existing D&D product. In my opinion any disappointment we might feel about their failure to materialize should be irrelevant to how we feel about the current edition. Now I know you're going to say that DDI is a product they are selling and I agree. They are charging for DDI but DDI is not the character builder. In my opinion DDI is the electronic versions of Dungeon Magazine and Dragon Magazine. I just don't understand. We're willing to pay $15 a month for those magazines when they were in print but balk at paying $5 a month for the electronic version of both unless they come with a character builder. That doesn't make sense to me. I admit I'm disappointed that the promised electronic tools have not happened. I'm willing to give them more time but I know that they may not happen. Even so I consider by $5 a month a subscription fee for the magazines and I am very happy with where my money is going. Don't talk to me like I'm an idiot because I feel that way please. Thank you.
#12 Phobos Jan 07, 2009 19:26:34	Second of all WoTC is not a software company. The character builder, the game table, the visualizer, these are not the products WotC is producing here. At best they are add ons to the existing D&D product. In my opinion any disappointment we might feel about their failure to materialize should be irrelevant to how we feel about the current edition. I agree, I love 4e, enjoyed 3.x to a point, and I'm happy with the game, but I admit... I am very displeased with the whole DDI. I would have preferred, and this isn't a money thing, it's a value thing, that they either let the community continue to do character builders, and forget it, or produced it as a free tool that D&D players can use. It promotes the game. I just don't understand. We're willing to pay $15 a month for those magazines when they were in print but balk at paying $5 a month for the electronic version of both unless they come with a character builder. That doesn't make sense to me. You may never understand this, but I confess, I am one of them. I'd drop $15/$30 in a heart beat to have the same old print magazines subscription at my doorstep again, no questions asked. I like the print, the color, the ability to read on the couch, table, head, work, bus, etc... I enjoyed the ads, often visiting the places advertising to see what they had, I laughed at the comics. I often played adventures right out of the magazine at our table..no wires, no computers, no need for expensive printing. I'm not scoffing at the cost of the e-zines, it's not a price issue for me. It's a value issue. The magazines I once knew are gone. Everyone hates to hear it, but like Paizo did with 90% of their material, Wizard's could have easily offered a low cost PDF only subscrition to Dragon/Dungeon, or a higher cost print and deliver subscription. Heck, they could have even thrown in a PDF copy with every print and deliver subscription. Most of the tools they plan to release have no value to me, or at least not enough to warrant pay. Bonus tools? nice but used rarely, not worth a subscription. Character visualizer? Really?!?!? Character builder? Sure...but it better be miles ahead of the free ones, and so far, its not. Seeing as it is really only for use with 4e D&D, it has limited use to other people and games, in that, it should be a free tool to help promote the game. Dungeon Builder? Great, like the Character Builder, but honestly, unless I am playing D&D 4e, and buying the books, it has little stand alone value to me, 9 out of 10 times, I prefer to buy my adventures. Compendium? No value, I have my books and my books are at the table with me. Game Table? For many, this is probably the bread and butter of the tools, for me, I have local gamers. No value. Consider, a low cost pick and pay option, and maybe I'd look at one to two tools I can justify. I wish I could ever look at these tools and see a $14.95 month value, but I never will. This is not comparitive to a MMORG, an XBox live subscription, or anything else I can think of along these lines. Someone really missed the mark when they thought the DDI was a similar product. Sorry, its just not.
#13 peteyrock Jan 08, 2009 9:54:45	There is rumor of a certain digital release this month, and that could be what's making up for the lack of articles. Besides, the decline in amount of articles is minimal. On another note, I find it interesting when people take time out of their day to call out hate and disgust for WotC/Hasbro on their own forums. For the record, being one who has worked in digital sales for a couple of years (and storefront sales for probably longer), I can say that WotC has pretty damn good customer service. They take the time to frequent these boards and help people with their woes, such as being unable to find a link or cancel their subscription. What they won't do is come in here and read ignorant blast posts. You say they're only looking for profit, and care about nothing else. Are you not aware of the recent layoffs they've experienced (twice)? Are you not aware of the number of paid ORCs sifting through thousands of pages of rants to help people? You should be coming here to be constructive. If you really want to rant and rave, save it for your blog.
#14 Negflar2099 Jan 08, 2009 14:11:19	I would have preferred, and this isn't a money thing, it's a value thing, that they either let the community continue to do character builders, and forget it, or produced it as a free tool that D&D players can use. It promotes the game. No, I do understand this. I admit that I miss having the physical copy of the magazine. I'm more torn about it though than you are. I like having the physical magazine to read but other than enjoying reading them they weren't much use to me. Not because the articles weren't great. They were. It was more the physical nature of it as a magazine. Carrying a stack of magazines around with me to ever game just became tiresome and photocopying what I wanted to use never seemed to work. Consequently really fantastic articles and ideas would go ignored. In many ways having a PDF version is much easier. What really sells it for me though is the Compendium. I think that alone would have solved my problems with the print magazine. I can't tell you how great it is to have every feat, every item and every everything right at my fingertips. Player says he wants to play a Gnoll but forgot his magazine at home? No problem. I'll just look it up in the compendium. Player is using a feat they read about but can't remember how it works? Compendium's got it covered. I think the best of both worlds would have been a physical magazine with PDF at a little extra cost with the Compendium. That would have been something. Still if you think about it then $10 less a month is a savings and I understand why they switched to full electronic but I also understand where you're coming from. You make a very compelling point.
#15 Aaron_Highcolor Jan 11, 2009 7:32:51	Character builder? Sure...but it better be miles ahead of the free ones, and so far, its not. Seeing as it is really only for use with 4e D&D, it has limited use to other people and games, in that, it should be a free tool to help promote the game. But, they are producing the programs for 4E D&D, why would they be concerned about people playing games other than the one they are producing a supporting?
#16 Paulon Jan 11, 2009 7:49:11	Because if they can attract the people playing something else, then they can make more money selling 4th Ed stuff to them?
#17 saint_matthew Jan 11, 2009 9:10:38	I'm a fan of the DTF (Dead Tree Format) & collected both dragon and dungeon since 2nd Edition (My 3E+ dragon collection being complete). I had a DDI account for a while, but when their system glitched & my auto-renew kicked me off, well i decided it was fate. Why purchase a magazine i then need to print? Especially since i can't print & bind the articles due to the disclaimer at the start of the magazine. A magazine i purchased for the sake of printing and binding, to add to my collection of dragon magazine. Its bad enough that we are being treated like criminals, but why would you pay for the privilege if you can't use what you own, unless you are willing to walk around with a laptop. I am in no way advocating piracy, but you can see why some people would rather pirate then purchase. If you don't want people to just pirate your intellectual property, you will need to step up your game. Personally i think i'll just read the interesting articles over my friends shoulder & hope that with time the general standard of the publication increases. The appeal of the Compendium, Character Builder, Visualizer & Gametable are just not enough for me to continue to pay, now that Dragon & Dungeon have become so pedestrian. After all why would i pay for a compendium or a character builder when i've already paid for the books? How often am i going to use a visualizer (once i finish playing with it that is)? Lets not even mention the eventual release (& in my opinion "launch platform explosion") of the digital game table. Their are a handful of interesting articles since its digital inception, but mainly just tiny little pieces of crunch (not fluff) & barely interesting fluff that we used to get for free anyway. I basically agree with everything Phobos (our erstwhile god of fear) had to say. With the decrease in the number of articles i am happy i dropped it. Before anyone jumps up and says "Yes, but 4E is new, how many articles did you get when 3E came out" the answer is "Alot." Both Dragon & Dungeon were intigrated parts of the 3E release. they had all sorts of articles on all sorts of subjects. This new version does not impress
#18 Phobos Jan 12, 2009 7:19:34	But, they are producing the programs for 4E D&D, why would they be concerned about people playing games other than the one they are producing a supporting? That's the point I am making, and have been for the past few months. 90% of this stuff has no value if you don't play 4E D&D. The game table might be the exception. Most of this stuff use to be free to us before, why the greed? The community makes this stuff, and many times better versions of it. Maybe they should charge for the game table, a nominal fee. Maybe offer a subscription to the magazines, one or both. But the character builder, visualizer, bonus tools and what not should be free for the D&D community; otherwise, why not just use the free stuff?
#19 Aegeri Jan 12, 2009 20:07:53	I am a strong supporter of 4E and such forth, but even I have to admit that I'm disappointed in the article counts in Dragon recently. Dungeon is doing pretty well this month however and so taken together, I'm not unhappy with my DDI subscription (which is not just paying for Dragon). On the other hand, the two articles thus far (the zombie article and Dhampyr) have been excellent quality. If the other 3 follow suit I'll be pretty pleased. 8 articles in one month is good for your page count, if 5 of them are complete rubbish you're not better off than getting 5 good quality articles (assuming the other 3 are of course).
#20 JohnLynch Jan 12, 2009 22:14:29	What's the page count/article size? Dragon #364 - 85 pages (free) Dragon #365 - 80 pages (free) Dragon #366 - 87 pages (free) Dragon #367 - 75 pages (free) Dragon #368 - 100 pages Dragon #369 - 71 pages Dragon #370 - 66 pages I think this is a definite pattern myself. When it was free we only got less then 80 pages once. After the first paid month (which had the most content we've ever seen, most likely in an attempt to drive up some hype/mislead people into thinking this would be the norm) we've had less then 80 pages. I don't see why January would be any different from what we've gotten so far. I hope more people are going to cancel their subscriptions to set a sign. I'm only subscribing when I want to update my character builder. This will cost me $16 a year instead of $60. If Dragon had more content I'd consider subscribing on a yearly basis. When five months ago you should have been feeling ripped off and NOT buying anything. So by your logic because I don't like the current DDI offerings, I should have boycotted 4th ed completely? I'm quite enjoying the books. Everyone hates to hear it, but like Paizo did with 90% of their material, Wizard's could have easily offered a low cost PDF only subscrition to Dragon/Dungeon, or a higher cost print and deliver subscription. Heck, they could have even thrown in a PDF copy with every print and deliver subscription. WotC charges $4 per PDF, Paizo charged $5 per PDF. Seems pretty comparable to me.
#21 trogdor67 Jan 12, 2009 23:16:10	I hope WOTC, when they look at these boards, realizes that it isn't just anti-4e trolls who are dissatified with the current state of the magazines. I love 4e, but the amount and quality of the magazines both seems to be headed downhill. Look at the Dhampyr article: one of the powers is so badly written it's incomprehensible. That bespeaks an editing, not a writing problem. And why did we see an ad for the non-article "The Ruins of Starmantle" both weeks before and weeks after this three-page ad for a novel came out? I suspect WOTC knows, and the recent admission that they've been trying to do too much is perhaps a sign that they know that there are problems. Since they've been focused on the compendium and the character builder, likely the magazines have gone downhill. Don't forget that they have to still put out the rulebooks, and novels, adventures, and accessories. WOTC may have to change their business model. They have a few possibilities: Let the fans help. WOTC called for fan submissions when they started the online magazines, but they didn't really give the fans any insight about what they wanted, so they probably got zilch in the way of submissions. WOTC could say, we're having a contest: submit your version of a dhampyr and we'll print the best one. WOTC spends its time editing, not writing, and taps the resource of the fans to produce quality content. Give us added value in the subscriptions by focusing on what the fans want. We want comics-- give us comics. There are currently web fantasy comics, but WOTC could compile their own collection, or at least link to them. People have said they miss ads-- give them ads. This also increases profitability. People will enjoy short articles, if there are lots of them. Nothing against Shelly Mazzanoble as a writer, but I find her column utterly uninteresting. I really don't care about how she GMed for the first time or what Christmas presents she got for her players. If there were ten little columns like that, I wouldn't care. Nine of them could be written by fans, if they want to publish that sort of thing. Added value: insider scoop on RPGs coming out. Not added value: lots of previews of only WOTC products we are going to purchase anyway. We like the class previews, but they are not substitutes for magazine content. Finally, focus, focus, focus. They have reined in, but they need to do more. Who cares about the character visualizer? Put all other digital products on hold, focus on improving and maintaining the character builder, the compendium, and the magazines. If there is any money at all, get an outside freelancer to do work on the website, someone who plays D&D and knows that "The Ruins of Starmantle" is not some big event. A lot of people miss the print issue. But say that the subscription price is for the magazines, the character builder, and the compendium. If it's reasonably priced, I think most fans who have jobs will be there. And for the love of Pete, get the system for payment working. I can't figure out how to even renew my subscription. Sorry I've gone on and on. Say Amen, somebody.
#22 Aegeri Jan 12, 2009 23:33:01	Look at the Dhampyr article: one of the powers is so badly written it's incomprehensible. Huh? What on earth are you talking about?
#23 zaukrie Jan 13, 2009 14:30:24	I've given this more thought. I also think there is a marketing mistake here. I love the DM focused articles in Dragon, but the number of player related articles is too low. I say this from the perspective of there being more players than DMs. Where are the short, 1 page articles on the classes? That just shouldn't be that hard, every month 5 class articles of 1 page. I miss the short nuggets. I love the content I'm getting, for the most part. But, it does seem shorter, and it does seem to have discounted pc related articles too much.
#24 trogdor67 Jan 13, 2009 19:07:57	Huh? What on earth are you talking about? Sorry, one of the feats, savage bloodline. "You can use your blood drain power on a target, and it grants combat advantage to you without you having that target grabbed." I'm not sure if this means that you can use blood drain against a target and automatically gain combat advantage, but the power is very difficult to understand due to what seems to be a misplaced modifier. Others have assumed this power means you can use blood drain with combat advantage only, rather than having grabbed the target, since that's the way that it works for vampires. THis might seem like nit-picking, but when I read articles like this it makes me feel like I'm buying a second-rate product. If the online magazine is going to lack the proofreading of the print edition, the errors should at least be fixed. I mean, c'mon, these are supposed to be official rules.
#25 fiendish_dire_weasel Jan 19, 2009 9:26:46	*sadness* Not only do we get few articles, but none of them seem very good either. Unless the Febuary editorial calender (theoreticly out soon) looks very appealing, I may well skip for a few months.
#26 Artifact Jan 19, 2009 10:24:51	I've decided to skip January as well. Too bad; I was really curious about the Legacy of Acererak and Origins articles. Have to see what's in store for Febuary and beyond; hopefully, I can pick up the January issue then. I'm hoping by then that auto-renew will finally be automated (at the least) or even made optional, rather than compulsory (at best). No more emailing CS, no waiting for turn-around confirmation. Geez, wish I could just read Dragon without having to struggle with all the quality of service issues. That's this falls under by the way-- the material is fine in my opinion (even if it is getting a bit 'lite' IMHO). It's the service side of things that drive me nuts: A) Compulsory auto-renew (it's there, watch out for it, 'specially if you only want a single issue). B) Loopy email addresses (some days the link works, some it doesn't). C) 'Undead accounts' (see this post). E) 'Work-arounds' are required for some users (briefly mentioned in Digital Insider #12). Okay, got that all off of my chest for another day (or so). One of these days I'm gonna move on-- just like one of these days, WotC is gonna figure out how to run D&D Insider :P. Sorry, bit snarky there.
#27 _Mithreinmaethor_ Jan 19, 2009 13:39:33	Just for comparison: Dragon #364 (7 features, 7 columns) Dragon #365 (7 features, 5 columns) Dragon #366 (9 features, 4 columns) Dragon #367 (6 features, 7 columns) Dragon #368 (7 features, 6 columns) Dragon #369 (6 features, 6 columns) Dragon #370 (5 features, 6 columns) Dragon #371 (5 features, 5 columns) Not sure if it helps any to this conversation. But it appears that the Dragons avg 6.5 features per magazine and avg 5.75 columns per magazine.
#28 fiendish_dire_weasel Jan 19, 2009 16:50:05	Hoenstly, I am less concerned about the number of articles and more concerned with the quality of the content. The free issues seemed to have better stuff. As I have said elsewhere, 1 racial and 1 class article per month is pretty much a requirement for me I guess.
#29 The_Dude_02 Jan 19, 2009 16:59:37	I am happy with the Dungeon content and was happy with the Dragon content through November. The past few months, there has less content (not counting previews) and, while some articles are of the same quality as in the past, a noticeable few have been poor. I don't mind the occasional poor quality article or the occasional month with a lightweight article count. However, the combination for two months in a row is worrisome. I don't like feeling as if the content upon which I decided to subscribe is not indicative of what I would be getting. I sincerely hope that the Dragon content in future months is better than this month.
#30 zaukrie Feb 04, 2009 8:46:21	Three months now. One of the "adventures" in Dungeon is a sidetrek. The Shadar Kai article is no longer listed. Alas, the degradation of the amount of content continues. I feel 100% misled by the free versions.
#31 Greyson Feb 04, 2009 11:20:59	I feel 100% misled by the free versions. Just wanted to add my voice to those of other disappointed subscribers. here has certainly been a drop-off in content in both magazines. I would join in protest by canceling, but I love the character builder too much. I wish I could just subscribe to that. I earnestly hope the content returns to its formerly robust quantity. It does feel like a bait-and-switch from the plump pre-subscription content to these anemic excuses of magazines we've had the last few months. And, there's not even a Digital Insider today...
#32 kouk Feb 04, 2009 14:17:08	Even discounting Dragon, there was really a lot of usable stuff in Dungeon. Take a look at 162 here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1075889 I'd pay $5 for it (well, I do, but).
#33 smdvogrin Feb 04, 2009 19:40:58	Three months now. One of the "adventures" in Dungeon is a sidetrek. The Shadar Kai article is no longer listed. Alas, the degradation of the amount of content continues. I feel 100% misled by the free versions. Feb 16 DRA: Playing Shadar-kai Oh, look, it was delayed a couple weeks. Clearly the sky has fallen, and we are all doomed.
#34 Paulon Feb 04, 2009 20:20:14	When things continue to get cut or delayed without good explanation, people start to expect the worst even when it's a minor matter. Given the track record with DDI, WotC has a lot of work ahead of them before they can regain the confidence of many of their current or potential customers. The lack of explanation in this case doesn't help matters.
#35 kouk Feb 05, 2009 3:42:17	Honestly the explanation is given right at the bottom of the editorial calendar. This editorial calendar is a living document. Content may be added, article titles may change, and articles may shift dates for scheduling reasons. The calendar will be updated accordingly to reflect any changes. This is their internal calendar, not a calendar for subscribers of when to expect things. The calendar often doubles as a subscriber preview in that respect though, so they have put it up for us to see. Sometimes things have to get pushed back or reworked. They can show us those things happening in relatively real time, or just keep it all behind a wall of silence and hope we're content with just a table of contents.
#36 zaukrie Feb 05, 2009 13:11:00	when I posted that, the Shadar Kai article was NO LONGER ON THE CALENDAR. You can be snarky in your reply all you want, though.