Dragonlance was written with a Vancian magic system in mind, since that's what (A)D&D used. It was worked into the setting flavor-wise; for example, we're told the WoHS couldn't fight off the Kingpriest because their power would eventually be used up in an open conflict.
Might the addition of at will and per encounter abilities change that?
Do you think this should be retconned? Or do you think there should be an in-world explanation for why magic suddenly changed?
What I'm curious about is the sorcerer. Sounds like it will have more differences from the wizard than before. I'm curious what it'll look like, and how that may impact ambient magic.
I think there's going to be a great deal of retconning involved with the jump to 4E. Magic and Wizardly organization are particularly vulnerable to this.
Possibly, though you don't necessarily have to make the jump to 4e if you feel the flavor doesn't fit.
Cheers,
Cam
I think there's going to be a great deal of retconning involved with the jump to 4E. Magic and Wizardly organization are particularly vulnerable to this.
Are reretconning, unretconning, or unconning words?
Best case:
No link is made between specific mechanics and specific power sources in keeping with what the 4e team seems to be doing (ie Martial, Divine, Arcane, Ki, Psionic, etc...). The flavor of the various Krynn-specific power sources (Ambient Arcane, Focused Arcane, Ambient Divine, Focused Divine, etc...) is defined in a mechanics-free way. Great crunch can match great fluff, wherever it occurs. No retcon needed. This allows individual campaigns to use different mechanics without diverging from canon during any age. Sounds like the state of affairs in 1e/2e, before canon represented a straightjacket in this area. Want an Ambient "Sorcerer" with an academic/study flavor and a Warlock mechanic, fine... Want it in the Age of Dreams, fine... Maybe that is your Primal Sorcerer, or one kind of them...
Worst Case:
The 3e limitation of strict canonical connection/limitation between specific mechanics and specific power sources is remade (with different mechanics, mechanics that are more different from vancian in general than prepared vancian is from spontaneous vancian). Narry the two shall meet. Have the desire to use a different mechanic that meets the flavor of a power source in a cool way without breaking canon? Your SOL. And monster ability mechanics have to be handled again as well.
For all the complaints I have had during my time with DL the one I simply can't wrap my head around is this one, griping about wizards and sorcerers being separated by game mechanics. That seems like a no-brainer to me. Does it get confusing when you add new classes like warlocks, spellthieves, and shugenja? Of course it does. But we have a viable and functioning explanation that brings all previous editions under a single theory endorsed by the setting's creators, Margaret and Tracy, and mandated by WotC. I don't think it gets any more official than that.
Cheers,
Cam
The DL setting was 'created' by a big multi-headed blob with no brains and multiple stomachs (a committee, for those of you unfamiliar with the reference) in a TSR board-room. Which is why you got absurdities like steel being used for currency in lands that needed it for weapons.
But, unless you convert from an existing campaign, the question of how magic works isn't relevant except as a meta-discussion. To the characters, it works as it always has.
What I specifically referred to is the lessened reliance on per day spells, with the addition of at will and per encounter spells. The WoHS didn't fight against the Kingpriest when he wanted to take over the Towers because they had to rest to regain their magic and could not keep up a battle for too long. What might the excuse be for not fighting him if they could use magic at will without the need to rest?
What might the excuse be for not fighting him if they could use magic at will without the need to rest?
It is easier to say they couldn't do that back then then to shoehorn in the idea that they're capable of casting spells whenever they like, to be honest.
Cheers,
Cam
...anybody who thinks these concepts predate SAGA must be thinking about something else entirely.
I agree. So, based on your argument here, Primal Sorcery was not ambient (ambient didn't exist) and could be cast (using a "Sponteneous" Mechanic) in any Age, because it was merely Arcane and Arcane has never been unavailable.
... griping about wizards and sorcerers being separated by game mechanics.
I love separation by game mechanics. The issue is binding flavor to a specific mechanic, instead of keeping it open to various potential mechanics (ie 4e, I have been warning of this for some time).
What might the excuse be for not fighting him if they could use magic at will without the need to rest?
Maybe he had them at a disadvantage in some other way. The Kingpriest was undermining all of the other deities. Who is to say that he wasn't also undermining the Gods of Magic or the WoHS in some way. Maybe he was utilizing (being utilized by) the Greygem or Primal Magic. Maybe he was utilizing the combined might of his collected Artifacts. Maybe he just had them out numbered or forced them into a fight that could only be a pyhric victory (they could have won, but the blood bath would be a horrible PR loss across the continent), so they retreated to a more sustainable position. Maybe they realized a flaw in the plan of aligned towers (ie Istar) and just thought it best to retreat to Wayreth. Maybe there is some new aspect of this time frame that complicates the matter and explains it perfectly.
Incedentally, this is a prime example of problems with basing a fantasy story on the use of specific mechanics instead of flavor. Instead of imagining the possibilities of magic in a fantasy world, we are wondering how limited spell slots affect history differently from Warlock blasts.
It is easier to say they couldn't do that back then then to shoehorn in the idea that they're capable of casting spells whenever they like, to be honest.
If ease is what is wanted, what could be easier than those magic words: "plot device"? Or, we could introduce yet another temporal based divide in Magic. Maybe the Third Cataclysm will explain what 4e magic is and why it was only just discovered or why Wizards/Sorcerers/Clerics/Mystics have all all of a sudden changed.
I know that I have read that about 80% is still Vancian.
I think the claim was that once you've used all of your per day spells, you'll still be at 80% capacity.
Perhaps one of the methods that the Gods of MAgic used to fight the sorcerors was a lifting of the curse?
Honestly though--I love Dragonlance and dearly hope that I can play it in 4ed, but if too much more changes, I'm worried it will stretch believability a little too far for me.
What do you guys think
?
I agree. So, based on your argument here, Primal Sorcery was not ambient (ambient didn't exist) and could be cast (using a "Sponteneous" Mechanic) in any Age, because it was merely Arcane and Arcane has never been unavailable.
It wasn't even an issue until SAGA, and we were told to work with that (and with the sorcerer class.) Everything that's been introduced and maintained for 3e was mandated by WotC, and there really wasn't any other way around it.
Which is why, believe it or not, we came up with the clever explanations we did.
Cheers,
Cam
I know we don't have much information yet, but I'm still curious if anyone has some thoughts about how what we've heard so far might fit into a Dragonlance campaign.
Actually, the setting was created by Tracy and Laura Hickman (read Tracy's story of coming up with the world on the roadtrip to Wisconsin-- fun tale) --
They came up with the basic idea, but many people contributed important and fundamental elements. I'll leave my comments at that.
Actually, the setting was created by Tracy and Laura Hickman (read Tracy's story of coming up with the world on the roadtrip to Wisconsin-- fun tale) --
Easy there. No need to get hostile.
Tracy and Laura Hickman came up with the initial concept of Dragonlance on their trip from Utah to Wisconsin when Tracy was hired on as an RPG designer. He wanted to present TSR with something so that they would feel justified in hiring him.
After he started, they had an in-house call for a series of modules focusing on dragons, since they had so many already focusing on dungeons. Various designers, including Doug Niles had a pitch, but one designer seemed to be taking a little extra time on something special - Tracy Hickman. What he proposed became Dragonlance.
Since then, there have been many who have come to shape the setting. Jeff Grubb was largely instrumental in the creation of the gods, which were based on the ones in his campaign. Margaret Weis came up with the idea of the Test of High Sorcery. And so on and so forth.
Anyway, that's the bare-bones version and is a bit of a tangent. Perhaps we should get back to topic...
Perhaps we can have something major magical event in DL.
I'd rather not see anything world-shattering. But I'd like to offer a possible suggestion.
Perhaps the WoHS are trying to bring sorcerers under their control. Let's say they're successful (I'll leave the details on how this is done for someone else to make up). Rather than have all sorcerers convert to wizardry, however, let's say the Conclave just extends its control to both kinds of magic. And not only that, but let's say that they discover that both kinds of magic can be combined. So all who study magic are able to learn both, and that could be why wizards will have both the usual spells per day and at will abilities.
This is just off the top of my head, I'm not sure yet if it's a good idea.
can i just use an orb on top of a staff with a wand protruding from it?
This was always my interpretation of the history of the king priest and the wizards' fleeing of the tower. I don't recall it having anything to do with the inability of their magic to last...
Although even if it was actual stated in a book and I am not remembering it, you have to realize that in a huge battle it would be one extremely large encounter and they would still run out of their 1/encounter spells and all their 1/day spells, leaving them weakened for sure. Granted we still don't really know how the new magic system will affect this so only time will say if I am right or not...
If I remember correctly, forgetting a spell after it was cast was part of a Curse on magic-users.
Perhaps one of the methods that the Gods of MAgic used to fight the sorcerors was a lifting of the curse?
Honestly though--I love Dragonlance and dearly hope that I can play it in 4ed, but if too much more changes, I'm worried it will stretch believability a little too far for me.
What do you guys think
?
Yep I love Dragonlance too but from the preview books for 4th ed (which are beautiful BTW) I can't really see the magic system being shoehorned nicely into Krynn, Oearth or Aber Toril.
I am really getting of the opinion that maybe the current campaign worlds need to be left on the shelf when it comes to 4th ed.
It is easier to say they couldn't do that back then then to shoehorn in the idea that they're capable of casting spells whenever they like, to be honest.
I think a better explanation would be why the Cold War happened: fear of mutual destruction. Sure, the Wizards could have gone to war with the Kingpriest, but it would have resulted in the land's ruin, and even the winners would have lost. The Kingpriest, being the pompous and arrogant fool he was, didn't really think (or care) about such things, since his might made him right, and thus when an open confrontation was building, the Wizards backed off in order to do what was right for the world.
And you don't even need to resort to "They were too scared of succumbing the limits of the game's mechanical system... but with a less meta-game explanation" reason previously given.
Dragonlance just got done with two major upheavals in magic and it should be possible to combind godly high sorcery magic, with primordial magic to expand the abilites of wizards everywhere resulting in the new wizard.
as for grayhawk they havent really said anything about it yet.