Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 vardock Apr 23, 2008 15:01:48	My Dm seems to have a very different view of the dragon lance setting than I got from reading the book. I am New to this setting so maybe you can help me out here with a few questions. First. Where Does it say that Dragons Are not as powerful nor have as much interest or influence as D&D Core? We are playing in the time right after the war of souls in case that helps. He shot down both the Dragonfire adept and Dragon shaman classes because "Dragons are not as powerful in dragonlance". He also said that Draconians and Dragonspawn "Replace" half-dragons. What happened to dragons to make them lose their ability to inter breed with other creatures? I read the Dragons section and there was nothing on this, it may be in one of the other books.
#2 elrodian Apr 23, 2008 17:39:17	ok so i have never done this setting but i love the novels and going still going thought them and i also look at the history and i have never seen that anywhere that dragon are weak. The DM might think this beacues of the dragon Overlords. The overlords are form a different world then krynn and they are much stronger then the dragon of krynn. But do not take my word for it becaues i have not seen the sourcebook.
#3 vardock Apr 24, 2008 8:47:43	well that was no help at all
#4 darthsylver Apr 24, 2008 17:20:16	Half-Dragons and any other dragon-human inter breed has kind of always been unheard of in Dragonlance. In 2E it was possible to be a half-dragon but only of a silver variety. This was mainly because the only Dragons that ever took human form were Silver and Gold. Gold dragons were too uppity to allow for something like this to happen. Silver dragons are also the only dragon breed to have ever fallen in love with non-dragons. Heart fell in love with Huma, and Silvara fell in Love with Gilthanas. So yes the Draconian and dragonspawn have pretty much replaced the half-dragon race option. Draconians are basically Dragon offspring made into humanoid form, and Dragon Spawn are humanoids (mostly human and elf) mutated into draconi humanoids. Now in Dragonlance, statistically speaking dragons are just as powerful as any other dragon of the same breed and age in other settings. You must however take into account the fact that Dragons serve as mounts in DL more often than in other settings. So while they might be as powerful they may not seem to be, to the uneducated commoner. Also there was a dragon purge shortly after the beginning of the age of mortals and dragon ranks were severely thinned out. Most of the power in dragon form was concentrated in the Dragon Overlords and all of them have been destroyed. There still are some minor Dragon lords but they are pretty weak in comaprison. Now most of these Dragon overlords were brought down not only by mortals, but also by a single mortal woman. Mina destroyed Khellendros, Malystryx, and Cyan Bloodbane single handedly (granted she did have the faith of Takhisis behind her), but again to the uneducated commoner they were brought low by a little slip of a girl (who later turned out to be a god, but who knew, not even her.) Beryl was destroyed by the elves, Sable was destroyed by Dhamon Grimwulf, and Gellidus was brought down by a group of adventurers. So as you can see the image of dragons being mighty and powerful might have fallen in the eyes of the common populace. This might be what your DM is talking about. He also may have simply stated that this is the way of things, so as to exclude the Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Shaman class. These two classes (if I recall them correctly) also are not very well portrayed in the DL setting by the normal races available but would be attract those races that usually revere or are more in awe of Dragons that the normal races. Races such as the Bakali (lizardfolk), Draconians, koblds, possibly the thanoi.
#5 darthsylver Apr 24, 2008 17:28:49	ok so i have never done this setting but i love the novels and going still going thought them and i also look at the history and i have never seen that anywhere that dragon are weak. The DM might think this beacues of the dragon Overlords. The overlords are form a different world then krynn and they are much stronger then the dragon of krynn. But do not take my word for it becaues i have not seen the sourcebook. It wasn't that the Dragon overlords were more powerful when they first arrived, it was that they knew the magical theory behind using slain dragons to increase their power. When they first arrived they were just as powerful (and just as weak) as the Dragons of krynn. But because they knew how to siphon the lifefore and souls of slain dragons and concentrate in dragons totems they were able to increase not only their power but also their size. After slaying some 2 or 3 hundred dragons (each) their power was truly immense. One of the Dragon overlords Khellendros (or Skie if you prefer) arrived long before Malystryyx and spent several decades on Krynn blening in with other dragons. He never showed any sign of being more powerful than any other dragon. Only after Malys showed up and he wrestled the secret of the Dragon Totem from her was he able to increase his power.
#6 vardock Apr 24, 2008 17:29:23	both classes were introduced recently
#7 darthsylver Apr 24, 2008 17:41:06	Yeah the Dragon Shaman is in the PHB II, and the dragonfire Adept is in the Dragons of Faerun (which should give a clue as to 1 reason why your DM excludes it from being in DL, kinda like a Wizard of High Sorcery or a Solamnic Knight in Forgotten realms). The other reason the Dragonfire Adept might be excluded is based on where they get their Power. 1) From their Draconic blood (unheard of in Krynn with the exception of Draconians and Dragon Spawn) 2) From Dragon deitites (Paladine and Takhisis, 1 who is dead-Takhisis, the other is no longer a god-Paladine). There are no other Dragon deities in Krynn. Dragon Shamans on the other hand is a little more tricky. Until the Dragon overlords came into play, there really wasn't any dragons who took part in controlling realms or interacting with the populace (at least after the cataclysm, before who knows) at least in a overlord-landlord-ruler type way. The Dragon Overlords, when they came into play, were not so much inspiring as they were scary. Now those who did become followers and dedicated themselves to the dragon overlords, usually became dragon-spawn. This was namely because they who were smart enough to realize that the only way out from being subjugated by the dragon overlords was to work for them, might become possible threats to the dragon overlord. The dragon overlords recognized this ambitious streak or knowledge in these sublicants and put a stop to any possible independence by turning them into Dragon-spawn. What you might consider doing is asking him his reasons for excluding the two classes. If you don't like the reason, come up with a really, really, and I mean really, awesome story as to why your character became one and present it to him. Perhaps your character comes from Taladas, or the Dragon Isles and you were raised as the son\daughter of a chieftain of people who revered dragons, not just one but all dragons good and evil.
#8 vardock Apr 25, 2008 7:32:43	dragon fire adept was also in dragon magic. Both classes do not draw power from dragons or draconic blood. They simply strive to emulate dragons. they need no patron. Maybe he just did not know that.
#9 darthsylver Apr 25, 2008 12:02:03	Straight from the Wizards.com Website on the Dragonfire Adept Whether they are bold champions defending the weak and downtrodden, or merciless raiders seeking might and riches, dragonfire adepts are imposing figures who command the magic of dragonkind. Able to call upon a dragon's fiery breath and augment themselves with spell-like abilities, dragonfire adepts have access to powers normally beyond the reach of humanoids. Dragonfire adepts have no arcane or divine magic, nor are they masters of martial prowess. Instead, they draw upon a direct link with the nature of draconic existence, infusing their soul with the raw magic of dragons. The most obvious incarnation of this link is their breath weapon, but as they gain experience, dragonfire adepts learn powerful invocations that allow them to access different draconic abilities. Cunning, hearty, and learned, dragonfire adepts can be warleaders or sages with equal ease. A dragonfire adept is a student devoted to understanding the ways of dragons and emulating them. Evil dragonfire adepts are cruel tyrants who impose their will on others, seeking to control land, build strongholds, and amass vast treasures. Good dragonfire adepts are champions of justice and freedom, using their powers to aid others. Like a sorcerer, a dragonfire adept gains new powers automatically as she rises in level, tapping ever deeper into the draconic magic in her soul. Unlike a sorcerer, however, a dragonfire adept manifests this magic not in the form of spells, but as invocations that emulate draconic powers. From the Wizards Site on Dragonfire Adepts in the Realms Dragonfire Adepts Like warlocks, dragonfire adepts in the Realms either forge pacts with powerful beings or access the innate power of their blood. Only beings of great power can supply such pacts -- dragon ascendants such as Tchazzar, draconic deities such as Tiamat or Bahamut, or augmented dragons of extraplanar power. These adepts tap into their acquired or natural power, using it to produce magical invocations similar to those of warlocks but also to use breath weapons resembling those of dragons. Unlike warlocks, dragonfire adepts are frequently found among good creatures, though less so than among those who embrace evil. Whereas dragon shamans are usually found only among primitive human and humanoid tribes, dragonfire adepts run the whole gamut of civilization. Some are primitive tribal mystics not dissimilar to dragon shamans. These make pacts with or are descended from extremely powerful dragons in their regions. Others come from noble families, having rediscovered a long-lost link to an ancient, powerful wyrm. Regardless of the source of their power, dragonfire adepts are often misunderstood and feared. They carry the same aura of awesome power, sense of mystery, and terrifying intensity that is found in true dragons. It is not uncommon for dragonborn of Bahamut to become dragonfire adepts. Their reawakening by Xymor has granted them the innate power to manifest dragon magic and breath. Currently, a group of five reclusive dragonfire adepts known as "The Light of Xymor" is off on a mission in the underdark below Vaasa. It is unknown what the goal of this group is, but it is believed that they are staging an attack against the Handmaidens of the Undying Queen, an insidious group of Tiamatan clerics based in Vaasa. One of the most foul dragonfire adepts in the Realms is Nevelaster Rellicraun (LE unique Untheri tiefling male warlock 6/dragonfire adept 6). Nevelaster is a tiefling of extremely unusual ancestry. It is believed that he descended from some horrible pairing of an abishai and a human, resulting in an abominable hybrid of draconic and native outsider. Nevelaster is even stranger, because he walks the paths of infernal and dragon magic, possessing levels in both the warlock and dragonfire adept. Some Tiamatan clerics in Unther believe that Nevelaster is vital in the Dark Queen's plans for the conquest of the Realms. The most common sources of dragonfire adept pacts are draconic deities. Tiamat and Bahamut make the greatest number of these pacts, but other dragon gods of the Realms can also provide such pacts, including -- • Aasternian (dragon god of learning and invention) • Astilabor (dragon god of status and wealth) • Chronepsis (dragon god of fate and death) • Falazure (dragon god of undeath) • Garyx (dragon god of destruction) • Hlal (dragon god of inspiration) • Io (dragon god of creation) • Kalzareinad (dead dragon god of secrets) • Kereska (dragon god of creativity and magic) • Lendys (dragon god of justice) • Tamara (dragon god of life) • Task (dragon god of greed) • Tchazzar (dragon demigod of Chessenta), and • Zorquan (god of dragonkind) The next most common sources are powerful draconic magic users and augmented dragons bearing fiendish, celestial, or dracolich pseudonatural abilities. Included among this list are -- • Arsekaslyx (pseudonatural guardian of the Well of Dragons) • Nexus (most powerful sorcerer of true dragonkind) • Alasklerbanbastos (dracolich Lord of Threskel), and • Dretchroyaster (hideous dracolich of Cormanthor) So again Dragonfire Depts get their Power from a direct link (in the form of either) 1). Draconic Blood (only Draconians and Dragon Spawn come anywhere close to this Definition) 2). Pacts with Draconic Deities (No remaining Dragon Deities in Krynn) 3). Pacts with Dragon Sorcerers\Augmnented Dragons (No such thing as Dracolich in Krynn) So yes the Dragonfire Adept class is a poor fit for the world of Dragonlance. Just because they emulate the dragons they get their powers from, does not negate the need for the source that they get their powers from. Anyone can emulate the ways and attitute of a dragon. Evil tyrants emulate Evil Dragons all the time. If they want some of the same powers however they must find a source for that power. The Dragon Shaman at least has a better chance. Again straight from the Wizards site While not particularly common, dragon shamans are found among barbarian tribes that worship or live in close vicinity to dragons. Scholars postulate that these shamans learn their powers from a dragon that lairs near their territory. Some dragon shamans can be found in more civilized lands, but the insular tribes are more likely to develop dragon cults. Several dragon shamans live among the barbarians of the Far Hills. These barbarians form small, tight-knit cults of dragon worship led by their dragon shamans. The barbarian tribe of the Earthrust Mountains known as "the Lost" has worshipped dragons for over 100 years. Their first dragon god was red, but they have also worshipped a brass dragon. There have been cases of dragon worship among the Uthgardt barbarians of the Great Worm Tribe. These are relatively rare -- evil dragons usually don't have the patience and restraint necessary for this, and most good dragons find it distasteful. Other cults exist among the tribes of the North and the island barbarians in the Sea of Swords. The Cult of the Dragon does worship dragons in its own way, but only a handful of dragon shamans have been recorded among its ranks. It is more common for "civilized" dragon cults to pop up when charismatic leaders ally themselves with dragons for power. As with most cults, the leader attracts the downtrodden -- orphans, victims of abuse, widows, and the homeless -- by promising them a better life in return for their worship of a dragon (or dragons). The most well known instance of this was in the Year of the Tusk. A cult formed near Myth Drannor that worshipped a small group of green dragons. The cult kidnapped locals, offering grisly sacrifices to the greens. It was eventually discovered and destroyed, but it did significant damage to the area before its demise. The worship of dragons is more common among humanoid tribes than it is among humans. At least three orcish cults in the High Moor worship red and blue dragons. These are quite entrenched in the region, having been there for several hundred years. These tribes tend to include some of the most fanatic worshippers, instilling unshakeable loyalty in their dragon gods. Dragon shamans are found most frequently among orcs, but they also exist among kobolds and lizardfolk. For those wishing to use the history of the dragon shamans without incorporating the class into their games, here is an alternative. A dragon cult can be led by an adept or a cleric of a dragon god (especially if that cleric has the dragon domain). Again the Dragon Shaman is typically found among humanoids that live on the fringes or among barbarian tribes. With dragon ranks being as thin as they are it is certainly a rare dragon that makes his presence known to the normal races found in the PHB, and the most likely worshippers of dragons are going to be Draconians, Ogres, Kobolds, Goblins, Dragon Spawn, and the Thanoi. It is possible however for a human or possibly a Kagonesti tribe to worship a dragon. Kagonesti elves have had a long-standing relationship with Silver dragons, even if it has waned in the recent centuries. In Krynn dragons do not so much as enter into relations with non-dragons so much as they simply take what they want and destroy any who try to stop them. Perhaps it is you who has not fully read the class descriptions.
#10 vardock Apr 26, 2008 8:27:23	good point. But there was a draco-lich in Krynn. Mina rode one and killed a dragon over lord.
#11 darthsylver Apr 26, 2008 8:41:58	Ok. She might have ridden a Draco-lich (I will go back and check on the details). But even if she did, it existed just long enough for that fight and then it disintegrated after Takhisis stopped suppling power to it. So there might have been a dracolich for all of 10 - 15 minutes. Hardly enough time to enter into any pacts or agreements with mortals. It also turns out that I missed something. (I need to confirm these reports, but I got these off the Dragonlance Nexus. So I am not sure if they are fan fiction or canon). Cyan Bloodbane (Ancient Green) is apparently a Dracolich now. Made so by Chemosh. Also Fleggrahlyx (Adult Gold) is apparently a Dracolich too. Made so by Chaos. Frostclaw (? White) In the Young Dragonlance Readers Novels I believe.
#12 cam_banks Apr 26, 2008 20:22:39	Ok. She might have ridden a Draco-lich Nope, she didn't. That was a unique dragon sent by Takhisis, a death dragon, and not a dracolich. Cyan Bloodbane (Ancient Green) is apparently a Dracolich now. Made so by Chemosh. Cyan Bloodbane is only a dracolich in Matthew L. Martin's head. He is not officially any sort of undead; he's dead. Krynn has dracoliches, but they are extremely rare. None of the major dragons in the Age of Despair or Age of Mortals are now dracoliches. Cheers, Cam
#13 darthsylver Apr 26, 2008 22:47:10	So much for my checking on fan fiction and what not. Thank you Cam.
#14 vardock Apr 27, 2008 9:12:46	draco liches are rare period. But you do not need to be a draco lich to form a pact. you just need to be a dragon with a caster level. which is just about every adult or older dragon.