Huzzah!
Cool! Let's hope they give us a more or less simple translation to 4E mechanics and not another dramatic shift in the cosmology the world.
I hear ya. In the last 80 years Krynn has had:
Something a little less dramatic would be a nice change of pace. :embarrass
How about the powers that be just blast it 100 years in the future and alter almost every nation and deity....oh wait....too late ;)
-Sounds...familiar....
-I figured it was either going to be Greyhawk or Dragonlance that got the nod. I prefer Dragonlance over Greyhawk, so that's cool.
-Sounds...familiar....
hate to rain on your parade, but they didn't say it was going to happen before greyhawk, just that dragonlance is supposed to eventually get their novels back, and that it will eventually be converted to 4th edition.
as i said in the previous thread, this is no surprise. there is no reason to expect any less. what *is* surprising is that their marketing department is so clueless they didn't announce this long ago, so as not to make them appear to be a bunch of complete and utter
what is also surprising is that they still don't seem to care to keep their fans happy by letting them know *when* the novels, at least, will be continuing (note that both 2010 and 2110 occur after the year 2009, and would both equally fulfill WotC's extremely vague promise. not that i think they're dumb enough to push it back to 2110, but they may not continue in 2010 either is my point). i mean, i can sort of understand why not to announce anything about the RPG setting being converted. they probably think that other campaign settings feel they're in the running for next setting to be converted (personally, my best guess is dragonlance in 2010 anyways, and the only real competition it has is greyhawk in terms of commercial success, but until they announce it the marketing morons might think that fans of other settings really truly believe they have a chance. or that, after seeing what happened to forgotten realms, they *want* to have that chance.)
so yeah, this promise is nothing new. they basically promised that you'll get new novels (not necessarily the ones you've already got in the queue, either) and that you'll eventually get your setting in 4e. the former is unsurprising, and the latter was already announced, with just as many details (ie none) when 4th edition wasn't even out yet.
it's not time to lose hope, but i would say at best it's time for cautious optimism, not really celebrations. when you start hearing *real* promises (for example "we're finishing the novels that have already been written and you can expect them to be released starting in of " or "the dragonlance setting is going to be updated to 4e in of "), *then* you can start celebrating.
hate to rain on your parade, but they didn't say it was going to happen before greyhawk, just that dragonlance is supposed to eventually get their novels back, and that it will eventually be converted to 4th edition.
-You're right. I misread the OP, and thought it said that DL was going to start being updated and new novels IN 2009, which would have made it the 3rd 4e campaign setting.
I'd expect it to be after Eberron, (so year 3 release) if WOTC are the ones doing it. (which if they are smart they will be)
Though I have to say I was hoping for something like Ravenloft or Al-Qadim for year 3.
I mean Dragonlance is inevitable but what are they going to do to make it -really- stand out from FR and keep it from being FR 2.0 again? (with worse backstory... Device of Time Travelling... grrr grrr grrrr grrr)
I mean Dragonlance is inevitable but what are they going to do to make it -really- stand out from FR and keep it from being FR 2.0 again? (with worse backstory... Device of Time Travelling... grrr grrr grrrr grrr)
Not changing anything and keeping Dragonborn, Tieflings etc out would make it quite different from FR 2.0.
Havard,
waiting for Mystara
Wow, this is great news. I was very sad to read a while back that Wotc might give up on Dragonlance entirely.
Nah, they only gave up on Mystara/Known World.
Nah, they only gave up on Mystara/Known World.
You like kicking those who are smaller than you, do you? There are names for people like that.
Sure, Mystara was always grouped with the smaller settings. Obviously it cannot hope to compare with a giant like Dragonlance. Given the number of settings waiting in line, Mystara never had much hope in being converted in time for 5E.
Which means the 4E fans will be missing out on a gold mine.
Havard
You like kicking those who are smaller than you, do you? There are names for people like that.
Sure, Mystara was always grouped with the smaller settings. Obviously it cannot hope to compare with a giant like Dragonlance. Given the number of settings waiting in line, Mystara never had much hope in being converted in time for 5E.
Which means the 4E fans will be missing out on a gold mine.
Havard
on the plus side, if the 4e realms are any indication, mystara may be dodging a bullet =P
-Indeed. Pray that they don't come to you with promises of "revival".
You like kicking those who are smaller than you, do you? There are names for people like that.
Apparently the big smile smiley post icon ... something like this ( :D ) but more green ... is lost on you.
Therefore in the future, feel free to take all of my posts way too seriously. :evillaugh
Mind you, when I started playing D&D, it is with those boxed sets that introduced me to the Known World and Karameikos. If you think I want to see the setting go the way of the dodo, then you do not know me at all.
Oh yeah, feel free to take the previous paragraph very seriously.
Not changing anything and keeping Dragonborn, Tieflings etc out would make it quite different from FR 2.0.
Havard,
waiting for Mystara
Dragonborn = Draconians.
Tieflings will probably be around, since they are a player's handbook one race as either something new or reimagined.
What makes a setting different from one another isn't what you keep -out- it's what you add -in- or -to- the game.
http://naegunfael.proboards61.com/index.cgi?board=dl
That's what I've done so far on my version of DL. (Yeah I know not a lot but I've got three technically four homebrews that I work on)
and it's gotta be a -little- more than races it's also gotta be the world feel for me. Right now DL seems FR 2.0 to me. There's things in it that are unique and they could have gone with but didn't expand farther. Hopefully they will do such this go around although really a black robed wizard would be just whatever the Necromancer ends up being. Red being standard wizard and I don't know about the white.
They could surely do something with the moons in a much more significant fashion though.
Dragonborn = Draconians.
Heh?
now certainly that's true for some settings. i mean, for something like planescape you can add pretty much anything. likewise with spelljammer, or even ravenloft (it's easy to get in, it's just not easy to get out).
however, to put it bluntly, paladins have no place in dark sun. they simply don't belong there. and dragonborn in dark sun would be all kinds of wrong, imo, at least as a standard PC race. likewise, kender don't belong in the forgotten realms (even if way too many people play their halfling rogues as kender nowadays). and drow don't belong on krynn.
so yes, a lot of what defines a campaign setting is what you add to it. but a lot of it is also defined by what you don't add to it, and even what you remove from it.
the core rules are fine for a standard fantasy setting. they just don't work well for *every* fantasy setting. some of the core 4e races just don't belong in certain settings, and the same goes for some of the core 4e classes, and should not be added to those settings where they are not appropriate.
so yes, a lot of what defines a campaign setting is what you add to it. but a lot of it is also defined by what you don't add to it, and even what you remove from it.
the core rules are fine for a standard fantasy setting. they just don't work well for *every* fantasy setting. some of the core 4e races just don't belong in certain settings, and the same goes for some of the core 4e classes, and should not be added to those settings where they are not appropriate.
I second that! I love warforged and shifters, but I would not love to see them in Greyhawk. It's not that they couldn't be retconned to fit, but they are part of what makes Eberron unique and distinct from other settings. Dragonborn and Draconians would seem a lot alike, but the Draconians have their own unique history in the Dragonlance setting that sets them apart from the more generic Dragonborn, and would consequently make them an awkward fit for some other setting. I like Dragonborn just fine, but they would just be redundant in Dragonlance.
however, to put it bluntly, paladins have no place in dark sun. they simply don't belong there. and dragonborn in dark sun would be all kinds of wrong, imo, at least as a standard PC race. likewise, kender don't belong in the forgotten realms (even if way too many people play their halfling rogues as kender nowadays). and drow don't belong on krynn.
I don't quite so agree... especialy the new paladin. Some kind of elemental mystic-champion class distinct enough to cleric may be nice. Albeit something like Shugenja may be more fitting.
Remember, paladins are more than LG now. Spiritual champions.
As for dragonborns... can't be they be used to represent that curious 'dragon-men' hybrid race created by one of the Dragons (I think), or something? Or one of the lizard-like humanoid races? Like for Draconians in Dragonlance?
warforged and shifters
SHifters are actualy a generic race, can exist easily in FR and Greyhawk if wished. (like points up, an individual DM shouldn't feels bad in 'playing around' with outside races, classes, etc...) And Warforged could be created by imaskarites or gondians in FR, and equivalents in GH - heck, even Tinker gnomes maybe.
Now, all those suggestions, not canon... But not canon =/= wrong to be added/changed. It don't =/= can't be done.
What will really be interesting (a disaster?) is how they'll treat magic under 4E, including WoHS, Sorcerers, Clerics of , Mystics.
I wonder if gnome tinkers will be included in the DL Player's Guide, or shoved in a monster manual ;)
what *is* surprising is that their marketing department is so clueless they didn't announce this long ago, so as not to make them appear to be a bunch of complete and utter
It's surprising that they waited until after the decision was actually made to announce it? Not particularly.
what is also surprising is that they still don't seem to care to keep their fans happy by letting them know *when* the novels, at least, will be continuing (note that both 2010 and 2110 occur after the year 2009, and would both equally fulfill WotC's extremely vague promise. not that i think they're dumb enough to push it back to 2110, but they may not continue in 2010 either is my point).
It's also surprising that they haven't announced a release schedule, because they haven't finalized one? Not particularly.
If 4E Forgotten Realms is any indication, a 4E version of Dragonlance would be a train wreck.
Last I checked, Cam Bank didn't write FR 4e.
I think WotC should find a different Design Team for DL, preferably like Cam Bank.
Cam Banks is a great idea. Some of his work for Margaret weis' 3E version of Krynn was pretty darn good. And he seemed a good guy according to his Dragonlance Nexus posts too...
I'm sorry to the other thread posters if my previous post seemed a little snarky...I'm still steamed about what happened to Faerun.
So that's in the back of mymind, as well as the Saga/5th age fiasco. I want to see dragonlance done right.
I want to see dragonlance done right.
All I want is DLCS done right. My own tiny gripe is that the book didn't have a prestige class for Minotaur mariners. I'd have to get the Age of Mortal book which is not my favorite time period for the setting.
Heh?
How isn't that one obvious? :P
Just give em feats that grant em glide wings and there you have it. Instant Draconians.
Remember, the Monster version can have a substantially different write up than the Pc version (Look at the Eladrin for Example or the Humans)
Also, Fluff, is just that Fluff. It is not some immutable Holy Text That Can Not Be Altered. None of my races follow Phb fluff in my homebrews (except for some generic parts with the Elves and Eladrin. Ie both are Fey from the Ever After (read Feywild)
They could Easily put Warforged within Dragonlance pretty readily. (Could be gnome creations... Especially the ones that survived the Nevermind boom.. what were they called? Mad gnomes? You know the ones that only invent practical things?)
Paladins can fit within Darksun as well, they aren't all lawful good champions of justice anymore. Infact I think I remember there being champions devoted to the Dragon Kings (was that what they were called? been so long) who more or less fit the Paladin bill.
Fluff is just that Fluff. "The Phb race doesn't fit because the Phb fluff isn't right!" Then change it to fit the setting. Heck FR did for the Dragonborn. Also, given how bad some of the fluff is in DL (Looking at you Device of Time Travel and Takhisis stealing the world and a level 2 character some how killing her) It's not like DL could not use a substantial rewrite of fluff in many places as it is.
How isn't that one obvious? :P
Because Draconians are made, not born.
Personally, I'd rather not take the lazy route and slap "draconian" label on a pre-existing dragonborn race.
Dragonlance is not one of those cookie-cutter setting like Eberron and Forgotten Realms. Not all D&D universal monsters exist on Krynn.
Because Draconians are made, not born.
Personally, I'd rather not take the lazy route and slap "draconian" label on a pre-existing dragonborn race.
Dragonlance is not one of those cookie-cutter setting like Eberron and Forgotten Realms. Not all D&D universal monsters exist on Krynn.
Which is again a fluff issue and not a mechanical one. As it is right now the Dragonborn fit the "Dragonhumanoid" motif. Which in of itself is rather generic. Which is another thing that irks me about Draconians... they aren't made anymore.. so how come they are a player race again?
Actually DL kind of is. Eberron has more to differentiate itself from FR than DL does. DL is pretty much the epitome of generic fantasy 101 (or at least became as such during 3e)
There are ways that you could differentiate from FR in a substantial way. (thinking of the Moon influence on magic for a starter.. Curse of the Magi for another)
Which is again a fluff issue and not a mechanical one. As it is right now the Dragonborn fit the "Dragonhumanoid" motif. Which in of itself is rather generic. Which is another thing that irks me about Draconians... they aren't made anymore.. so how come they are a player race again?
How come minotaur is a PC race option? Blame Kaz.
How come draconian is a PC race option? Blame Kang and his regiment.
:P
Minotaur can breed though. :D
So can Draconians...
So can Draconians...
Again, I re-iterate. Do not take the easy-lazy route of slapping the "Draconian" label over the "Dragonborn" race.
So can Draconians...
Since when? I see no information about this in my setting book. Cite example please. Need to know for my own project.
Again, I re-iterate. Do not take the easy-lazy route of slapping the "Draconian" label over the "Dragonborn" race.
I still fail to see how Draconians are not Dragonborn. Explain the difference. And don't say "Fluff". Can't really use their Death Throws either since that would be counter productive as a Pc ability at best anyway. (IIRC didn't it prevent you from being resurrected?)
I still fail to see how Draconians are not Dragonborn. Explain the difference.
Explain how they are similar (having dragon blood flowing in their vein does not count).
Since when? I see no information about this in my setting book. Cite example please. Need to know for my own project.
I havn't actually read through all the source books published so I can't speak for them, but if you read the novels about Kang (Kang's Regiment maybe the title of the specific book) they find eggs of female draconians so they can now reproduce.
Explain how they are similar (having dragon blood flowing in their vein does not count).
They are both "reptillian humanoids" that are the direct result of Dragons either doing things with humanoids, or were altered to become humanoids. Both of which have breath weapons, both are stronger than normal. Both have draconic traits.
Fluff is really the only thing that differentiates them from one another (maybe some racial feats being different) there's more difference in Lizardfolk to Dragonborn than there is Draconian to Dragonborn. (and not just fluff but actual mechanics)
The fluff ontop of that is closer than not as well between the two.
Death Throws really don't work as a differentiation factor because they are too hard to gauge of their usefulness. (especially if they prevent you from being "rezzed") Unless you want the race to get two encounter powers (which I really don't think would be balanced and the DB is pushing it as it is) So it comes back to Fluff being different. Fluff can be changed. (Preferably the phb fluff.. just feels so ugh fluffwise)
I havn't actually read through all the source books published so I can't speak for them, but if you read the novels about Kang (Kang's Regiment maybe the title of the specific book) they find eggs of female draconians so they can now reproduce.
Thanks! well that takes care of the "viable race issue"
:o(
I think some of the problem is that Dragonlance 4e is sort of already out there. It is just about finding the stuff you want and remembering to alter the flavour text to suit you and your players.
I had already started to incorporate the moons and the idea of the Wizards of High Sorcery into my "Nentir Vale" campaign. Just cause it says something on the box doesn't mean we have to use it that way.
Minotaur can breed though. :D
So can Draconians...
As far as I understood, from the original Chronicles was that the Draconians were not only sterile, they were also only male (though the later wasn't explicitly stated, the former was mentioned at least once in Dragons of Spring Dawning). I find it difficult to consider allowing Draconians as a PC race because of their inherent "evil" nature. Although they were made from good dragons, the evil magic that altered them caused them to be evil. It's also difficult to consider allowing PC's to play something as powerful as a draconian and having them select their specific "racial traits" (I.E. post mortem effects). The higher types of draconians also have inherent magical abilities.
My main concern about playing DL, my favorite story setting, is the complexity of social/economic/political issues. The timelines (as mentioned before) have gone through so many shifts, it would be like making a campaign setting for any of the Star Wars timelines. Each genus of Star Wars has specified how the rules apply for each age. There would have to be some such campaign book for each timeline, and as having occurred in AD&D, they made a separate campaign book for the second continent (I forget the name at this time, Talas or something like that). This has not been such an issue in the other world settings, because the books have not had significant alterations (save FR spell-scarring). There would have to be settings designed for pre-cataclysm, post-cataclysm, war of the lance, post war, age of chaos, age of mortals, and whatever current age the setting is in. Gods, no gods, politics, racism, social status, not to say the specific class rulings: Solamnic Knights, Wizards of the conclave (vs. Rogue wizards), and races Elves (Sylvanesti Vs. Qualanesti), Gnomes, Gully dwarves, kender, etc. It would be a difficult change, and with so many class and racial choices, you would almost have to start over and have only a few requirements. Overall, I think these ideas that have been presented are great, the books have been so inconsistent that it would be difficult to reign in what is allowable and what is not.
If 4E Forgotten Realms is any indication, a 4E version of Dragonlance would be a train wreck.
That's because Forgotten Realms was a trainwreck starting sometime in early 2e when it began to dominate everything.
4e Dragonlance could be taken one of two ways- a Martial-only Arthurian-wannabe pastiche called 5th Age, or an actual fantasy setting starting about the time of the War of the Lance. Minus a certain annoying adventuring party that happened to be the focus of a couple of novels, of course...
Minotaur can breed though. :D
So can Draconians...
As far as I understood, from the original Chronicles was that the Draconians were not only sterile, they were also only male (though the later wasn't explicitly stated, the former was mentioned at least once in Dragons of Spring Dawning).
This is what the dragon highlords wanted everyone (the draconians included) to believe.
This however was shown to be a blatant lie, as Kang (a disillusioned Bozak) and his regiment embark on an adventure sometime shortly after the Chaos War, that leads them to discover a hidden cache of female draconian eggs.
This eventually leads Kang north onto the Nordmaar plain where he establishes the Draconian Free-state of Teyr, shortly after which the first generation of female draconians are born.
You are correct in the fact that all Draconians born/created before the founding of Teyr are male, however this is no longer the case. With that being said, female draconians are still a rarity among draconians.
Reference [Draconian Measures & Kangs Regiment]
As I stated over on the dragonlanceforums, a case can be made for dragonborn being second generation draconians.
This is due to the fact that since they were never meant to breed, no forethought was taken as to what repercussions of their tampering would have on successive generations.
From a genetic standpoint, all 1st generation Draconians could theoretically be heterozygous (carriers) of true dragon traits (eg. breath weapons). When these carriers breed, there would then be a 1/4 chance of these recessive traits surfacing (aka. a Dragonborn).
This is due to the fact that since they were never meant to breed, no forethought was taken as to what repercussions of their tampering would have on successive generations.
From a genetic standpoint, all 1st generation Draconians could theoretically be heterozygous (carriers) of true dragon traits (eg. breath weapons). When these carriers breed, there would then be a 1/4 chance of these recessive traits surfacing (aka. a Dragonborn). "
I like it.
I'd go a step further and fast forward the timeline a bit in a homebrew game.. say 75 years or so. Gives it some time for things to have settled down a bit and for the Dragonborn to have started families of their own. How do the older generations feel about this "mutants". Is Kang and his city state happy for these new additions or are they essentially the "half-elves" of the Draconian world.
Also as for the elf problem. I'd say defualt Eladrin as the Silvenesti and have elves be either Qualinesti or wilder elves depending on background.
In all things forward. I think the last novels left off with Mina joining Krynn's pantheon...Goblin Nation...and the elves finding their new homeland. Those are the last major events I remember. If anyone else remembers other key events, chime in. Oh, and all the gods moving and shaking in the mortal world in order to gain influence/affect their standing within the pantheon and so on.
The question is, if the game/novels pick up from these points or some time after, imagine the world we're entering: A world of very active gods, Draconians have their own place in the world, Goblins with a very shamanistic view (maybe even not thought of as just monsters anymore?), Elves seemingly in seclusion?
What else?
We've talked about the topic of a possible re-launch on DragonlanceForums.com, and we've covered a few interesting points. The general consensus seems to be that a re-launch would work best if set around either the War of the Lance, or possibly the post-Legends era.
The current era has a massive buy-in. To catch up on the core story alone, you have to read somewhere around 20 books. I don't see Joe Fan reading that many novels just to catch up. What Dragonlance needs is a buy-in that is reasonable in length. I would say the Chronicles trilogy is reasonable. Chronicles + Legends isn't so bad either.
One of the key components of Dragonlance is the struggle between Paladine and Takhisis. That's gone in the current era. I feel that Dragonlance needs to get back to that. In a sense, it's like how Dark Sun got back to its roots. Yet the two properties aren't exactly alike.
Dragonlance is far more than the original adventure path that started it all. It is a fully viable setting. It is my hope that WotC will give it another chance so that Dragonlance may live again.