Now, every time I think fantasy or even when I watched Lord of the Rings, the world of Dragonlance has a tendency to wander into my thoughts.
I moved away from Dragonlance after my teens (you know life, military and money became more time consuming). When I finally returned, Dragonlance had moved away from what I knew, and I have never gotten into the whole Chaos thing and whatever came after. I'm looking for a reboot so I can regain my youth :D
*In fact, when the Dragonlance Campaign Setting came out for 3rd Ed, I had it signed by Margaret Weis along with an apology for stepping on Tas. I'm not usually one to spaz out when I meet someone famous, but I'm afraid I made a bit of a fool out of myself by saying "I'd be ever-so-delighted if you'd sign this." "Ever-so-delighted"? What was I thinking! I probably had anime twinkles in my eyes and everything.
That said, when you look at it without nostalgia, what you see nowadays is fairly standard, with a heap of inconsistencies to boot.
I'm not trying to be a troll here, but after having played the campaigns, and a truckload of other in DL world (that was a while ago), I could only come to one conclusion: that setting's made for its original campaign, and doing more than that is asking for punishment.
Dragonlance was a nice setting when it was created, and it did go away from the dungeon-crawling that was standard back then.
That said, when you look at it without nostalgia, what you see nowadays is fairly standard, with a heap of inconsistencies to boot.
I'm not trying to be a troll here, but after having played the campaigns, and a truckload of other in DL world (that was a while ago), I could only come to one conclusion: that setting's made for its original campaign, and doing more than that is asking for punishment.
I have to disagree with this point. Dragonlance is a setting that could have been a one-trick-pony with the War of the Lance, but it has remained for many years since. It continues to grow and evolve, and has had some great materials since. MWP's run on DL has been its golden era, and the Age of Mortals adventures prove that there is so much more to be explored.
Dragonlance was a nice setting when it was created, and it did go away from the dungeon-crawling that was standard back then.
Which is really appreciated. I hate big dungeons... ;)
with a heap of inconsistencies to boot.
What big world has not its inconsistencies? True, it has its consistencies, just like any other big setting have. No one can grasp it all. But this drawback has its benefits. Do you know why, for what I've heard, Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman did not agree to write a book in the Star Wars saga The New Jedi Order? Because in order to keep consistency in a saga that big some people wrote down what had to happen when, they nearly wrote down a draft for each book. And MW&TH felt they had nothing to say, their creativity had been cut.
This is what happens when you want to avoid inconsistencies...
I'm not trying to be a troll here, but after having played the campaigns, and a truckload of other in DL world (that was a while ago), I could only come to one conclusion: that setting's made for its original campaign, and doing more than that is asking for punishment.
I must say that not only I do not agree, I'm glad I do not do so ;)
I am one of those who has grown tired of the War of the Lance and gives thanks for the Age of Mortals. Heh, I even thanked for SAGA and the early Fifth Age, it brought new blood to what I felt had become a static and stagnant world!
All the changes have brought diversity and variaety (though I must agree that a world war every 30some years may be abusive...) and have brought new and improved chances for campaigning and gaming.
Especially the age of despair.
Having said that I don't care for
1) the idea of steel being more valuable than gold as currency. It never really detracted from the game, but it also didn't make any noticable impact..... It always just struck me as being different for the sake of being different.
2) the explanation of why/how the good dragons were kept out of the early part of the War of the Lance.
3) Fizban.
4) that the DL module series based upon Chronicles (and all versions of it that followed) was SO dependant upon using the companions.
4) that the DL module series based upon Chronicles (and all versions of it that followed) was SO dependant upon using the companions.
In fact it was the opposite. First were the modules, then the novels. In fact, DoAT (at least) is the novelization of the game they were playing.
In fact it was the opposite. First were the modules, then the novels. In fact, DoAT (at least) is the novelization of the game they were playing.
This isn't true. There was really only one significant game session, the one that contributed such scenes as the wicker dragon and Raistlin's voice, but DoAT wasn't an "actual play" written up as a novel.
Cheers,
Cam
This isn't true. There was really only one significant game session, the one that contributed such scenes as the wicker dragon and Raistlin's voice, but DoAT wasn't an "actual play" written up as a novel.
Cheers,
Cam
Indeed? I thought it was the other way... Well, everyday you learn something new...Its been awhile so I may be wrong or making this up but I remember reading somewhere (possibly the Annotated Chronicles) that when playing Autumn Twilight the heroes managed to make it to the well outside the temple in Xak and ended up with the party being wiped out by Khisanth. I think Tanis even managed to fall down the well to his death if my memory serves.
In the Annotated Chonicles, Tracy describes how the party had Tanis tie a rope around his waist and was lowered down the well. A couple of failed checks later, Tanis falls just before Kisanth (one screaming while falling to his doom would grab a dragon's interest I suppose) comes up the well and wipes out the whole party.
In middle school, I read The Hobbit three times in a row. From this point on, fantasy has a secure hold on me. Around 7th or 8th grade, I came across Dragons of Spring Dawning at the school library (I found it after returning The Dragon's Boy). I shrugged and gave it a shot. The cover was pretty cool. It ended up drawing me in so deeply that I found myself in detention for reading in shop class (which was an opportunity to read more). It didn't take long for me to discover that this was the third book of the story. So, I set about finding Dragons of Autumn Twilight so I could see the story how they wanted me to. Since then, I've read the Chronicles Trilogy numerous times, but the rest of DragonLance has failed to enchant me. In fact, most of it hasn't even come close. I've realized that DragonLance will never go beyond the Chronicles Trilogy for me.
Me and a buddy (Vath) both collected all DL game books over the years. Taladas was the second thing I got after that flimsy little 2nd ed book that had the solamnic "pre-prc" classes. I liked the way the orders of the stars were (to get 3rd ed) totally "Clerics of Magic" and there were "rogue wizards" that did not work right with the moons. The subtle understories of hudderfolk and the shadow monkey people, (IRDA! ) and the briefest references to the "spelljammers" that would periodically dock outside of Palanthus.
If I remember correctly the original premise of the work was aimed at "spotlighting" the chromatic/metalic dragon schema they had come up with. The main characters were inspired by the original playtesters, but (for example) Raistlin was not gold, was not hacking blood, and had no dark wizard from the breaking chillin in his soul space. I seem to recall that there was something really funky with another character (was it riverwind? ) being totally reworked for the books. Hehe but the Horse Hair helmet/allergy was an original player creation .. I think.
I like the world. Its classy.
"The King Priest was actually a good man. Perhaps too good."
~ Sayeth Fizban (Oft Called Paladine! )
I also really liked the line in the 2nd ed book that said "when character's reach 18th level they need to be contacted by the gods and kicked out of the material plane so that they can "get on with their lives" etc. (I read - become a god like Tas and Flint)"
As far as the literature (as opposed to the setting) ...
I find them nice, positive, rife with heroism in the face of sadness and tragedy. Nothing wrong with that
I liked most of em, and I dunno about some of ya'll but I have great taste! IMnsHO :D As far as characters go Tas is of course "every body's favorite"
I was always a fan of Tanis. The original trilogy was very "tribulations of war" and rightly not as "fantastic" as allot of other Fantasy. The narrative focused more on the suffering of the companions (and the villians no less). Plans hardly ever worked, they never really worked together as a "good party," and between Kitiana and Raistlin the sympathy for the devil is pretty manifest.
PC/NPC magic was minimal compared to the legendary magics and the gods, and there was allot of diplomacy .. actually. Not as much action as I usually like. And.. like most war stories they kinda leap from one war zone to another finding our heroes in various states of already substantiated distress. I remember the chapter where we catch up to Tanis hiding out in the Blue army and I'm all like ... Um.. huh? Thats my guess as to why "normal fantasy readers" have a minor problem with the book (psst its too classy). Then there are the people who would love it.... if they ever "bothered with such D&D rubbish" (psst art snobs are all alike).
I was a big fan of the second generation tales (the son that Raistlin should have had .. heh cool), but sadly other than a short story that Vath wrote about an Aurok that forsakes blood magic to follow the newly refounded order of the stars ... in a quest to use the power of the moons to create Aurok eggs without Gold dragons. (twas leet). I haven't been keeping up. :embarrass Movie! Wootai!
For now, I completed a campaign in it and my players and I had GREAT fun. For now, I think I'll never change setting, even though the manuals aren't actually the best in accuracy...
However, I feel that by the time they hit Winter Night, things were really rolling. The writing no longer shows those kind of annoying viewpoint shifts and if you think about it, something seriously awesome is happening every few pages. There are evocative images in each chapter. I remember reading the walk through the Plains of Dust, with "Caramon, like a great bear" and other great description to re-introduce the characters, then they get to a city without a sea, then Tas starts a riot, then dragons attack the city, then they ride the griffons to Silvanesti, then they enter a forest where the trees weep blood. Overall, lots of cool stuff, and thats just the first half of one book.
I've read hundreds of novels in my time, and more than once, I've gone back to read books after years of growing up and found that they no longer live up to my memory. I consider myself to be fairly objective about such things, and I will still say that overall, Dragonlance Chronicles, and to a lesser degree, Legends, really is some of the best fantasy literature out there, assuming you can overlook that clunky writing in the first half of Autumn Twilight (which I think is vastly outweighed by great characters and good plotting).
I have been a fan of Dragonlance since it first came out, for me it was the novels and the great relationship between the characters. I have read many D&D noves and aside from a few of the Drizzt stories none can compare to the depth of Dragonlance. I find myself reading the Dragonlance novels over and over again. The biggest thing for me was the death of Sturn and Flint. You could sense how their death affected those around them and how it changed the feel of the novels. Good stuff. What are some of your reasons for your devotion to Dragonlance?
Of all the d&d novels I have read, those written by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman were the only ones that I don't regret wasting my time with. And that includes any and all Salvatore novels.
TS
I will still say that overall, Dragonlance Chronicles, and to a lesser degree, Legends, really is some of the best fantasy literature out there,
Agreed. There are so many people from so many walks of life that have enjoyed these books. Retcon 5th Age and I'll be buying again...
I am enjoying "The Lost Chronicles" though. We got a Flint story that gave him the attention he deserved, and we got more of Kitiara which I liked. This is really the era that was well done, good vs. evil but not all post apocalyptic and stuff. Post-apocalyptic is fine, but don't do it to something I already liked.
I think with the gods returning, getting kicked out and then returning again, you've got too many epic events happening in too short a span of time.
Less epic stuff happened to Krynn in 422 years than has happened in the Realms in 10, and that's before the 100-year Realms jump that is rumored to happen soon. It may seem as if the gods leave and come back all the time. They don't. They left, they came back (setting the stage for Chronicles) and then the world was stolen from them (making people think they left) 50 years later. Another 30 years after that and they were reunited with the world and now they're back.
You might say "well, that's a lot of stuff happening in our own real time re: game products and novels" which would also be false. Dragonlance has been around for over 20 years. It's coming up on 25 years next year, in fact.
So, no. I don't buy that argument at all.
Cheers,
Cam
Plus, it's nice to finally see other gods than Takhisis and Paladine doing their stuff.
Less epic stuff happened to Krynn in 422 years than has happened in the Realms in 10, and that's before the 100-year Realms jump that is rumored to happen soon. It may seem as if the gods leave and come back all the time. They don't. They left, they came back (setting the stage for Chronicles) and then the world was stolen from them (making people think they left) 50 years later. Another 30 years after that and they were reunited with the world and now they're back.
You might say "well, that's a lot of stuff happening in our own real time re: game products and novels" which would also be false. Dragonlance has been around for over 20 years. It's coming up on 25 years next year, in fact.
So, no. I don't buy that argument at all.
Cheers,
Cam
Ok, using the Realms as an example doesn't help your argument. Yeah, they are even more guilty of that problem than Dragonlance.
Here's my deal. At the beginning of Chronicles, you have a world where people don't believe in gods anymore, where there aren't dragons, and magic is rare and difficult. The gods' return to being an active part of the world after centuries of silence. Kind of a "have faith and be rewarded" message. Now we have gods, we have dragons, we have this whole war between Takhisis and Palladine.
This goes on for a generation when Chaos breaks out. Now the gods have to go away to contain Chaos. Basically people had just enough time to get used to the gods before they left again. (I don't blame Weis and Hickman, I blame TSR for this particular issue.) Magic doesn't work as well, the monstrous dragons take over, and the world is bleak as hell after maybe twenty years of hope. So we've gone from low magic to epic fantasy to post-apocalyptic.
Then they reveal Takhisis was behind this all along in the War of Souls. Once again, the other gods show up to take Takihisis out. The monstrous dragons die, magic is back the way it was, and we're at least closer to how the setting was. Not a complete reset, but still a major, major status quo change, the third one we've had.
As a DM, what kind of campaign do you run? Do you go low magic, epic, post apocalyptic, or post-post apocalyptic where you're trying to rebuild? As a player, what do you expect when you sit down to play a Dragonlance campaign?
Here's my deal. At the beginning of Chronicles, you have a world where people don't believe in gods anymore, where there aren't dragons, and magic is rare and difficult. The gods' return to being an active part of the world after centuries of silence. Kind of a "have faith and be rewarded" message. Now we have gods, we have dragons, we have this whole war between Takhisis and Palladine.
This goes on for a generation when Chaos breaks out. Now the gods have to go away to contain Chaos. Basically people had just enough time to get used to the gods before they left again. (I don't blame Weis and Hickman, I blame TSR for this particular issue.) Magic doesn't work as well, the monstrous dragons take over, and the world is bleak as hell after maybe twenty years of hope. So we've gone from low magic to epic fantasy to post-apocalyptic.
Then they reveal Takhisis was behind this all along in the War of Souls. Once again, the other gods show up to take Takihisis out. The monstrous dragons die, magic is back the way it was, and we're at least closer to how the setting was. Not a complete reset, but still a major, major status quo change, the third one we've had.
A couple of posts on this thread are a little off on the timeline, so I'd like to correct that first. After Chronicles, there's effectively 30 years of the gods having returned. It's nearly 40 years until their return again in the War of Souls. Just wanted to be a little more clear.
People talk like the gods come and go all the time, but really, there is only one time that we, as the reader, see the gods leave the setting. The Time of Darkness after the Cataclysm is all backstory. The story starts with Chronicles with the return of the gods, so we're seeing godly magic early on. It's not until the Fifth Age that it was all taken away. (I'm not sure if I'm phrasing this right, but I hope the meaning comes across.)
While the world may seem like a reset right now, it really isn't. Paladine and Takhisis have been removed from the spotlight, giving the other gods a chance to shine. The nations are going through rebuilding, and now we have four types of magic. One can now access magic without the aid of the gods, truly making this an Age of Mortals.
Basically, the world has had two major shakeups since its founding in Chronicles. That's it. Now, if we want to use the backstory, then we will find more, as I'm sure we will in any setting.
As a DM, what kind of campaign do you run? Do you go low magic, epic, post apocalyptic, or post-post apocalyptic where you're trying to rebuild? As a player, what do you expect when you sit down to play a Dragonlance campaign?
Depends on the era of play, the plotline, and so on. I've played in a Cataclysm-era game that was low magic and post-apocalyptic. I've run games that dealt with rebuilding. No matter what, all my DL games are epic, epic being defined as "high adventure", not high level of play (though you could certainly play that way).
Dragonlance is a rich world that allows for several different styles of play in several different eras. I call it a "setting of settings," as you can play in any time period, on any continent, and in a variety of ways. And yes, many settings can boast the same.
Thing is, this isn't really a competition. Both the Realms and Dragonlance have much to offer players and they appeal to different styles of play. I think they're both great fun.
What are some of your reasons for your devotion to Dragonlance?
Masochism.
Mostly a genuine love for the characters--not just the ones in the novels but the one's I've created over the years.
I cried when Flint died. Sturm not so much; he was destined to go that way, and I didn't like him much anyway. I also wept in Legends when Tanis finally lets go of Kitiara. I couldn't really feel sorry for Kit--she deserved it, I thought.
When we started a post Age of Mortals campaign I played a kender monk. (Yes, the only thing rarer than an evil kender is a lawful kender. She still 'handled' things, but she was very good about putting them back where she found them--even if it met tracking down the original carrier.) Said monk attatched herself to another member of the Fireforge clan (an affinity for kender seems to run in the family.)
When we quit playing, Duncan Fireforge had become the first dwarven Knight of Solamnia, and Squirrel had become Lady Fireforge in a romance that still makes the gods flinch when they think of it.