It is far from clear what the WotC intentions are with respect to putting out a 4E version of Dragonlance. However, if they do update the setting for 4E, how likely do you feel that they would introduce it with a similar Krynn Shattering Event?
Things to consider:
The Vancian system of arcane spell casting is even more tightly bound to the Dragonlance world than Faerun. In particular the Wizards of High Sorcery are organized in part by arcane schools of magic that are slated to disappear with 4E and all wizards get their magic from the gods.
In the Dark Disciple series the second book ends with the epiphany of a new goddess. Presumably the third book of the series will resolve her fate and the fate of the rest of Krynn's gods. Since that resolution will involve the deities of Krynn, would be a good opportunity for WotC to motivate changes in the setting to accommodate the 4E changes.
Since we are in the realm of speculation anyway, my own $.02 worth is that if WoTC puts out a 4E edition of Dragonlance we are perhaps looking at the death's of Solinari, Lunitari and Nutari. Perhaps the frictions developing between them at the end of the second book of the Dark Disciple series flame out into open conflict.
It is far from clear what the WotC intentions are with respect to putting out a 4E version of Dragonlance. However, if they do update the setting for 4E, how likely do you feel that they would introduce it with a similar Krynn Shattering Event?
On the Likely Scale, I feel that's Pretty Likely. But what do I know? Nuttin'.
Not sure how I feel about a timeline update... The Age of Mortals update never sat well with me. I understand they needed to move forward; I just didn't get into it.
It guess it depends on how they implement it. A 4th Cataclysm for 4th Edition? Er...
That said, if they release a 4E campaign setting book, I'll definitely check it out. :D
I say wait until book 3 of Dark Disciple, the "Krynn-shattering event" will probably build off the aftermath of that.
Things to consider:
Since that resolution will involve the deities of Krynn, would be a good opportunity for WotC to motivate changes in the setting to accommodate the 4E changes.
Since we are in the realm of speculation anyway, my own $.02 worth is that if WoTC puts out a 4E edition of Dragonlance we are perhaps looking at the death's of Solinari, Lunitari and Nutari. Perhaps the frictions developing between them at the end of the second book of the Dark Disciple series flame out into open conflict.
I had a similar thought recently.This could be good, or bad news (depending on how you feel about dragonlance currently). While this would mean that DL will be receiving support for 4th edition. It probably also means that Margret Weis won't have anything to do with it, other then the novels. That, to me would be a shame, due to the fact that she had put a ridiculously excellent team together, and the work they did for the setting was amazing.
However, any support would be better then no support (well... for the most part) . I, for one would be very happy to see DL support (MWP support would please me the most) for the new edition.
I think that it is quite obvious that there will be some major world changing event (as has been every other time rules changed in the world), as to what it is...who knows.
I like the idea of the dissapearance of the three (whether by death or revolt against the elders and leaving the system, or some other situation). I hope that the situation after the chaos war is not repeated (goddless world...not that much fun).
Of course, this all assumes that WOTC helps DL continue and not tosses it aside like other early worlds such as Birthright and Dark Sun).
I had a similar thought recently.This could be good, or bad news (depending on how you feel about dragonlance currently). While this would mean that DL will be receiving support for 4th edition. It probably also means that Margret Weis won't have anything to do with it, other then the novels. That, to me would be a shame, due to the fact that she had put a ridiculously excellent team together, and the work they did for the setting was amazing.
WoTC has several choices with Dragonlance. They could:
Resume publication (or licence publication) of the gaming products and continue publishing new Dragonlance novels.
End publication of gaming products (with the potential exception of an occaisional retro product like the Expedition to Castle Raveloft), but continue publication of new novels.
Drop everything, gaming products and novels stone cold.
Heaven only knows what they see as fitting into their overall business plan. We will have to wait and see. Assuming they do not drop everything outright my suspicision is that the story line of the 3rd Dark Disciple novel will tip their hand. An outcome that dramatically changes the way magic operates on Krynn would be a signal that they are not closing out the release of new gaming products (produced either by WotC or a licensee like MWP).
Since we are in the realm of speculation anyway, my own $.02 worth is that if WoTC puts out a 4E edition of Dragonlance we are perhaps looking at the death's of Solinari, Lunitari and Nutari. Perhaps the frictions developing between them at the end of the second book of the Dark Disciple series flame out into open conflict.
Whatever the case, I'd rather they consulted with Margaret Weis and her MWP folks on how to go about introducing the 4e effect. Tracy Hickman is optional, since he's not part of MWP.
I would hope that WotC would learn from past mistakes, but that doesn't appear to be so. I would hope that WotC would refrain from a third Cataclysm.
The Dragon Plague?
We already had a dragon purge. A plague would wipe the species out. Or maybe just the bronze and brass dragons, if 4e is any indicator.
We already had a dragon purge. A plague would wipe the species out. Or maybe just the bronze and brass dragons, if 4e is any indicator.
I'm mean like in shakespear, a plauge of dragons upon your......continuity!
Basically, in response to the sorcerers growing power, they lift the curse of the magi from the Wizards of High Sorcery.
The optimal solution to adopt at some time in the campaign setting's lifetime is to find a way to make the mechanics of the game an abstraction. In other words, stick to the idea behind certain rule elements and stick to that. For example, in 4E, wizards are arcane spellcasters who focus on understanding and manipulating magic methodically. On the other hand, we have sorcerers who manipulate magic artistically, without the rigors or control of a scientific approach, which can result into ambient energy remaining after spellcasting. Without going into the mechanic detail of how this is actually implemented, we can find a way to apply this to Krynn. Curiously, this fluff alone can illustrate very well the sorcerous nature of the earliest forms of magic on Krynn, as well as the more structured and focused ideologies enforced by the Wizards of High Sorcery. At this point, we can just assume that whatever mechanical implementations are made simply reflect these facts on Krynn.
Now, regarding the issue of a world-shattering event for 4E, I truly hope it's the last one, should it occur. A world of traditional iconic fantasy is turning into a series of tentative disasters with no end. At some point, I'd like to see the setting being driven forward by mortal wills, and not just the will of a god. The Dwarfgate Wars are an excellent example of this, and it's a shame that not many similar events have left a lasting mark on the setting. Most major event concern the gods to a great degree:
The Third Dragon War
The (First) Cataclysm
The War of the Lance
The War of Chaos and the Second Cataclysm
The War of Souls
Considering the last three on this list occurred inside a lifetime's span (Goldmoon's and arguably Caramon's), I think the setting deserves some measure of world-shattering stability.
The whole setting was initially built up to have one BBEG with a particular army of nasties ruling over the world while one group of heroes combatted that enemy...
That group of heroes destroyed this enemy, the only really worthwhile bad guy in the world, and then went on to become... well.. gods in some cases.
Everything past that point kind of pitters out which is why the setting wasn't done for 4E. There was no more story to tell.
With the creation of the Dragonlance movies, people who will be pulled into Dragonlance will want to play in the world of the movies, not the much different world that comes as an aftermath of later books that these fans do not yet know about.
As such, it may be important to build the setting as it was during those stories and drop everything that occurred afterwards (especially the rise of particular heroes to godhood and such).
Everything past that point kind of pitters out which is why the setting wasn't done for 4E. There was no more story to tell.
I can't begin to tell you, as a contributing author of several post-War of the Lance adventures, sourcebooks, and an upcoming Dragonlance novel, how much I disagree with "there was no more story to tell."
Chronicles was the beginning. While it was conceived as a specific story with a beginning and end, it has clearly not stopped many other players, authors, and game designers from telling compelling stories in the world of Krynn.
Cheers,
Cam
Dragonlance has gone through its own reset and time jump once before with the Fifth Age. The aftermath of the so-called "Second Cataclysm" resulted in a new game system (SAGA), a world that had drastically changed, and a split fan base.
I would hope that WotC would learn from past mistakes, but that doesn't appear to be so. I would hope that WotC would refrain from a third Cataclysm.
Do you think we need some fluff explanation as to why the dynamics of magic change in the setting due to new rules change? I know that DL is closely tied to the Vancian magic law.
I personally don't think we need it.
My take is that you pick the setting you like, then the gaming system you like, then run with it.
Do you think we need some fluff explanation as to why the dynamics of magic change in the setting due to new rules change? I know that DL is closely tied to the Vancian magic law.
I personally don't think we need it.
I'd almost be of a mind to just say, "It was like this all along" and act like there wasn't a change.
It doesn't make sense to me to have an in-game reason for the rule changes to a system. Would somebody wanting to play in the "War of the Lance" era need to play a certain edition while someone playing post "War of Souls" need a different rule set? If somebody time travels from one era to another, do their players have to re-do their character sheets? (No wonder Raistlin time traveled to Istar. He must had needed to gain his power using 1st edition rules. ;) )
Imagine the conversions to SAGA for the Fifth Age.
On a side note, I really hate how Star Wars Saga Edition is referred to as SAGA at times. I get confused!
My take is that you pick the setting you like, then the gaming system you like, then run with it.
Amen to that.
What is done is done, so I'm not of the opinion that everything that happened after Chronicles/Legends should be forgotten (even if I really dislike everything starting with the Summer of Chaos). But I think that a "restart" similar to what is happening to the Forgotten Realms (without another cataclysm) might be good.
Just my opinion.
I'd almost be of a mind to just say, "It was like this all along" and act like there wasn't a change.
Business as usual? I can live with that.
On a side note, I really hate how Star Wars Saga Edition is referred to as SAGA at times. I get confused!
Meh, chalk it up to kids who don't know the past. FWIW, it turned a bad name into a good name ... at least in TSR history. :D
I'm praying everyday for WotC to continue supporting Dragonlance with 4E. And, honestly, I'm hoping for a BIG leap in the time-line that leaves behind all the War of Souls stuff.
Oy, vey.
Sorry, I might -- MIGHT -- tolerate a campaign time-jump in FR, but not in DL.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Do you think we need some fluff explanation as to why the dynamics of magic change in the setting due to new rules change? I know that DL is closely tied to the Vancian magic law.
I personally don't think we need it.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I'd almost be of a mind to just say, "It was like this all along" and act like there wasn't a change.
My own preference would be to just pretend that magic had always worked that way. However, WotC had that choice with FR and decided against it in a situation where the Vancian magic system seems to be far less connected to the setting than DL. I am not convinced that WotC will carry DL forward as anything but a novels line, but if they do bring forward gaming materials it appears they have made the decision about what is the dog (the mechanics) and what is the tail (the campaign setting). Not my choice, but then I don't do game design for a living.
Considering how many esculation events have happened anyway... I think that the easiest way to incorperate the new material will be just to simply have them sail in on a Spelljammer (Extablished in the novels already) and have them just extablish in one of the abandonded kingdoms. (Not that I'm really all that up on my Kyrnn lore, but it seems doable).
For the most part, Unlike the realms, it isn't the stuff that you need to add in from 4E to the setting, it's what you need to add from Dragonlance to 4E. The numerous races, the Knights Orders (That is the real challange, I feel), and so forth, are more important. It's not like anyone is going to really give a hoot about a ineffective draconian sub-breed anyway.
Yes, undoubtedly this change has something to do with 4e magic. That being said, I think it also has to deal with the setting being over 20 years old and the designers wanting to reinvigorate it.
Whether it is the right move or not, I cannot say. Rich Baker tells me that they're well aware of how the Fifth Age fared, but that they think they'll do better, largely because, in the end, 4e is still a D&D system. It may be different, but elements are going to be familiar.
Something to consider as well is that only the Realms is having this massive jump. Eberron is not. Eberron is advancing about a couple of years.
Actually, Eberron isn't advancing at all. It was going to, but fans complained, and James Wyatt relented. Now, they're going so far as to say that not only will it not advance, none of the novels are "canon" in terms of the game product. In other words, the metaplot of the novels isn't considered to be part of the actual timeline for the game. This is quite a shocking change from the norm.
Cheers,
Cam
Makes it easier to have your own plot and not have it screwed up by any authors who come along to tell a story.
It's not so much that the authors screw up your game by telling another story as much as the next batch of campaign setting sourcebooks catering to these novels' content. The Eberron designers decided to dissociate novels from expanding the campaign setting, which should theoretically work well as long as there's material you can feed into 998 YK Eberron. Once it's saturated, I expect the setting to move to another point in time.
Given these realities, I'm quite happy that the Legends of the Twins sourcebook was published. It actually remedies quite well the idea of "what if had not occurred" when the event in question is one a particular DL fan didn't like. Didn't like the 2nd Cataclysm? Don't worry. The book's got you covered. Wait, you didn't like the 1st Cataclysm? Don't worry either. Your bases are loaded too.
SAGA, 3E, and now probably 4E will require some shoe-horning of this or that into the world to 'make it all fit'.
The same applies to FR, to some degree as well. IIRC, the Time of Troubles was due to the move to 2nd Ed.
DL needs to be treated as a world, where the game rules are changed to conform to DL, not the other way around. Unfortunately, this won't happen, and we'll be left with a mess again should WotC take such a route with 4E impacting the setting.
I do not believe something could do more harm to a setting then that.
Krynn shattering event: Dragonlance Movie
I do not believe something could do more harm to a setting then that.
Ouch!:raincloud
In my opinion, Krynn needs yet another world shaking event like I need a whole in my head! If anything i think that the setting needs to be left alone for a good long while and partake of some world building, not world ending.
I love DL but I never liked the spellcasting rules. I consider them worse than the core version. Forced spell specialization where a caster looses most of the spell list without a good reason.
The test is bad because when you take it you probably can only cast a small handful of rubbish spells. Not much of a magic test no-matter how you look at it.
It will be good if they just create themed talent trees for the different orders of high sorcery and the different knighly orders and pretend it has always been that way. I don't think it would matter to the feel of the setting except improve it immensely.
I don't think how the casters cast will matter (except that many of the towers were destroyed because of their sleeping habits - but I thought that was rubbish anyway because they would just take shifts to protect the towers and be powerful enough to defend them.)
If they kill the gods of magic good ridence - just leave the moons around - it was always too divine like. Wizards tear magic from the world without asking - they don't ask permission like a wussey cleric.
As for the monster list - they would have a separate one for DL anyway.
perhaps a cataclysm could happen but all it does is destroy all gnomes (perhaps chaos could come and wipe them from ever existing at all)
lol, seriously, with the kind of world changing stuff that has already happened to Krynn, there can't be much more you could do to the setting without making it implode and puke itself out anew :D
Actually, Eberron isn't advancing at all. It was going to, but fans complained, and James Wyatt relented. Now, they're going so far as to say that not only will it not advance, none of the novels are "canon" in terms of the game product. In other words, the metaplot of the novels isn't considered to be part of the actual timeline for the game. This is quite a shocking change from the norm.
Cheers,
Cam
Novels Aren't Canon was a stated design principle of Eberron from inception, long before 4e.
DL needs to be treated as a world, where the game rules are changed to conform to DL, not the other way around. Unfortunately, this won't happen, and we'll be left with a mess again should WotC take such a route with 4E impacting the setting.
But DL have always been a D&D world. They tried to make it a SAGA world but it only turned away many of their AD&D/Dragonlance fans, myself included.
WotC should do what they did for DL 3e: let Cam and the MWP folks write the campaign setting book, while WotC foot the bills to print and distribute.
Or stuff the whole thing into a Paragon tree, but that seems a little to condensed.
Let's see if I remember this correctly...the Knights have 3 orders, right? With 3 groups of levels (Heroic, Paragon, Epic), I would think it would be easy enough to create a Knight class, then for the advanced orders, make a Paragon tree and an Epic Destiny.
Or stuff the whole thing into a Paragon tree, but that seems a little to condensed.
I have a problem with the supposedly elite order of the Rose be open to members in the Epic Destiny tier.
Both Rose and Sword knights should be in the Paragon Path tier, though I personally prefer them in the later half of the Heroic tier (levels 4-6).
Or maybe I'm just yankin' your chains. :D
Or maybe I'm just yankin' your chains. :D
And the big loud thud is the sound of my heart hitting the floor. Don't mess with my health.
On Paizo, in the description for the new DL module Winter's Ebb, they state:
"If you've been thinking about buying some d20 Dragonlance products, you might want to jump in soon—they'll be out of print before long, and they won't be coming back."
http://paizo.com/store/blog#v5748dyo5l96j
As far as Dragonlance goes in regards to future RPG'ing and 4th Edition D&D, Dragonlance is OVER. Finished and done. They will not be updating it or bringing it into 4E.
On Paizo, in the description for the new DL module Winter's Ebb, they state:
"If you've been thinking about buying some d20 Dragonlance products, you might want to jump in soon—they'll be out of print before long, and they won't be coming back."
http://paizo.com/store/blog#v5748dyo5l96j
They're referring to Margaret Weis Production's licence expiring for 3.5 D&D Dragonlance product. This has nothing at all to do with whatever plans WotC have for 4e now or in the future.
Cheers,
Cam
I miss SAGA.
If you're referring to the 1990's monstrosity, nope. Not a drop of tear.
I miss SAGA.
There are some SAGA articles on the Dragonlance Nexus, primarily from Eric Jwo. Be sure to check them out!
In fact, the 4e engine is so krynn-friendly, that I can see at least half a dozen different ways to play Dragonlance 4e, some of which can be done right out of the PHB and the FR Players Guide (due to the neccessity of the Swordsage class).
Dragonlance Organizational Ties:
Without changing anything, I can recreate the feel of pretty much every single organization (and organizational class) with just the information we have to date:
- Wizard of High Sorcery: Wizard or Infernal-Pact Warlock (Black Robe).
- The Swordsage and/or "Fighter" Training are mechanically flawless for representing why "elven wizards are allowed to mix sword and spell" in Dragonlance.
- Crown/Lily/Legionnaire Knight: Fighter with/without "Warlord Training" feat.
- Skull/Sword Knight: Paladin or Cleric with/without the "Fighter/Paladin/Cleric/Warlord" (and in the case of Skull Knight, Warlock)Training feat(s).
-Rose Knight: Warlord, or Fighter/Paladin/Cleric with "Warlord" Training Feat & possibly an appropriate Paragon Path.
- Thorn Knight: Swordsage (perfect), or failing that: Fighter with "Wizard/Warlock" Training, or Wizard/Warlock with "Fighter/Paladin/Warlord" Training.
- Solamnic Auxillary Member: Any Class.
- Legionnaire Mystic: Cleric with/without "Fighter/Warlord/Paladin" Training.
- Legionnaire Scout: Ranger or Rogue with/without "Ranger" Training.
- Academy Sorcerer: Sorcerer, or Warlock (Fey/Star/Vestige Pact)
The list goes on.
Magic is easier to explain... Its always worked that way.
Without going into any further detail, you can see how dragonlance-friendly the engine is right from launch, however I personally would prefer to see them adapt the new engine to Dragonlance in a way that allows new material to be supported even without releasing new suppliments, while also allowing players to have a unique feel to their character from the heroic tier.
I was thinking that with the advent of the Wild Sorcerers, the three gods of Magic decided that mortals were ready for the power they once possessed before they lost control of their magic.
Basically, in response to the sorcerers growing power, they lift the curse of the magi from the Wizards of High Sorcery.
This is fricken great! Great idea, really I love it. Only other thing I believe they need to do is fix the gods so all of them are there. Always seemed like with Paladine in mortal form he had to keep himself that way in order to keep Tak in check. Perhaps this new change in magic and other events force Paladine to resume his godly form thus releasing Tak to take her place as head of the gods of evil. This would be part of the rebuilding Krynn really needs now days, get everything back on track and then publish the new rule book. I also hope if they go ahead with making DL an official setting again they put a little more effort into the rule book this time around. Last time it was full of typos and lacked alot of info along with good maps. They need that sucker to rival the massive Forgotten Realms rule book of 3.0, now that was a well done book. There is so much that book lacked I was stunned, they need to remember there are 8 different kinds of dwarves on Krynn, it should be a book for all of Krynn not just Ansalon by the way.
Sorry kinda got off topic a bit there but you get the idea.
The last thing the world needs is the Gods leaving again or another cataclysm. maybe spark off a conflict between the WoHS and Primal Sorcerers.
the return of lord soth.
the knight if what not done as feats instead of tiers, three different prcs for the solmanic knights was very bad
there were two evil knight prcs too, they can be tiers, as they were well enough different
the wizard of high sorcery can stay, you only get power of the moon power after the test is taken.
:D The future of Dragonlance has has nothing to do with rules or magic or any of that. Quite simply whether the setting continues to be published or not, lives or dies, is based on one thing and one thing only.
Are the fans half-retarded or grown up too much???
Originally when DL was created, anyone could pick up the original novels of the first trilogy and enjoy them (and if you can find a decent used bookstore or library, you still can).
However as time went on, Dragonlance stayed stagnant.
"Well how did they stay stagnant if they did all of these earth shattering events?" you ask.
The answer is they (being those in charge of production) didn't stay stagnant in terms of storyline or rules changes, they stayed stagnant in terms of targeting a specific demographic.
They continued for years and years to write books geared toward teens only.
And before you argue that point, I direct you to your local library. Go ahead. Do a search for a DL novel there....that's right...where did you find it? Yep, in the young adults/juvenile section. It doesn't matter what state your in, what city you're in, what library you're at. You'll find the books in the same section every time.
They continued to create for a younger audience. Meanwhile their core audience grew up in real life and many fans simply moved on and left Krynn (and many left D&D for the most part as well).
Eventually they caught on to this and started writing for a more adult audience. This in turn doesn't create new fans to carry on the legacy of DL, it just appeases the core fans that stuck with the setting. Why doesn't it create new fans?
Well my daughter is only 10 years old and thus far has read the first trilogy and is half way through Legends. All on her own! At only ten years old!
Now ask me if I'll let her read the Dark Disciple series?
OF COURSE NOT!
The last thing a ten year old girl needs to read about is some evil god of death sleeping with a woman and "pleasing her".
And that's how it was in that story. No one can argue it. It's in plain black and white. The words are right there. Hell in the Dhamon saga, Dhamon Grimwulf tries to bag two women at once, but ends up a tad too drunk.
New younger fans can't get into the setting with that kind of writing.
And then you get a God awful movie created that essentially talked down to the hard core fans that have stuck with the setting for years, as if they were children.
So you have half the fans being treated as if they're half-retarded because they're being talked down to like kids....and then you have newer fans (like my daughter for example) who can't read all of the books because they're too mature for her.
The point is, the world of DL is a great one! It really is! But those who write the story lines (some of which have posted in this thread specifically) HAVE to understand HOW TO WRITE!
I'm not saying they aren't talented individuals. I'm not saying they do a bad job. In fact I believe quite the opposite. I think they're amazing writers and shouldn't be doing anything else for a living except writing. All of them. From the ones who write the novels, to the ones who work on the gaming supplements.
But they have to learn to stop riding the fence. They have to learn to stop writing novels that most older fans won't bother with because they feel like it's something written towards kids, and they have to stop writing something kids can't read.
They have to stop trying to target a specific demographic with each published work and instead just try to tell a good entertaining story FOR ALL AGES.
Then sales go up. And if sales go up, then Wizards will keep the setting around. If sales flop, they don't keep it around. That's business. And Wizards is in business to make money first and foremost. And who can blame them?
If DL is to survive and move into the 4th Edition era it has to have work created for fans of all ages, instead of each individual book being geared only to specific people.
This is why Forgotten Realms has ALWAYS had decent sales. The folks over there don't try to lay it out so kids can get it. They don't try to write so adults will be entertained. They just try to tell a good story. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mind you, I'm just a fan. Nothing more. Nothing less. And I could be totally wrong in my assessment. But a fan's perspective is what writers need to listen to. And if they don't listen to the fans.....then who exactly are they writing for then?
Now the DL movie on the other hand was made for ages 3 to 10 apparently, thats something I think we can both agree on.
If you truly believe the books are written more towards adults now days I suggest you pick up some actual adult fantasy books and compare. I happen to enjoy the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. Excellent fantasy stories that include mature subjects like **** and torture, certainly not meant for 12 year olds.
As another fan of DL I hope the writers keep writing the way they have been.
The books of late have offered much excitement and a thrilling escape from reality. Keep up the good work folks and I'll keep buying em.
As for the age range the books are written for I think you said it yourself, "young adults/teens", don't think 10 qualifies. I personally don't think there is anything inappropriate in the DL novels for ages 12 and up, and even if there was I would find it refreshing to know my kid was learning it from reading instead of internet porn.
When you have Dhamon Grimwulf, the main character of a book, trying to have a three-way, there's a problem.
When you have Mina feeling giddy after she was "pleased", there's a problem.
No parent is going to approve of their kids reading about a would-be-hero to drunk to be able to have a three-way. Or a vampiric chick in hell being happy because she just has an "experience" if you will.
One day we're all gonna be dead. And who's gonna keep a setting like that alive? Our kids? Probably not. Parents are going to want to keep their kids away from that stuff.
But then you have movies made to try to pull kids in. So then you just end up getting a bunch of angry older fans that feel as if they've been personally insulted. So they hop on a Spelljammer ship and head to Faerun.
And sales go down.
That's what it's all about.
The almighty dollar.
It's not about a lack of ideas or lack of story lines. The writers have TONS of those. It's not about trying to convert magic to fit with new rules. That can be done easily enough (it's been done already now a few times).
It's all about if the material can sell enough for WotC to believe it's a viable setting worth keeping around.
Forgotten Realms is going 4th Edition (officially). Why? The answer is simple. Their material makes the most money. So will we have DL being OFFICIALLY inducted into the 4th edition line-up? I'd say it would probably be next in line to get the treatment after Realms and Ebberon. But if something else comes along before it, then chances probably aren't good.
Haven't heard anything about DL novel sales being down myself but if you have solid proof of this please post a link. I also believe Forgotten Realms and Eberron did better as Campain Settings but I feel it was do to a lack of backing by WotC for DL. Had WotC put forth any where near as much effort/interest into the DLCS as they did the FRCS I have no doubt DL would be one of the top two selling CSs on the market.
I believe despite their awful attempt at a movie the DLCS will at least be made by WotC for 4e, weather or not they decide to back it from there is another story.
P.S.- If the people at WotC/DL need a consultant to tell them weather or not something is awful or good I would work for cigarettes. (my version of peanuts).
And the worst offense is Pokemon Diamond/Pearl. Seriously wtf is with the rival in this game. In the originals you loved to hate the rival. Now he's just a hyperactive friend who you encounter at the worst possible time (entering a town after an intense cave, leaving a gym to the pokecenter after a gym battle....etc) who won't shut up with this "OMG YOU OWE ME MONEY BECAUSE YOU WERE LATE" crap. Ugh why can't the newer rivals be more like Gary
In R/B/Y you could actually HATE your rival because he was such an arrogant ass. In G/S/C the rival also was pretty easy to hate - he was a thief, a criminal, and also an arrogant ass. In Ru/Sa/E your rival actually CRIES when you beat him. I'm serious he actually CRIES because you are better than him. WTF. Why would I want such a wimp as my rival?
And the worst offense is Pokemon Diamond/Pearl. Seriously wtf is with the rival in this game. In the originals you loved to hate the rival. Now he's just a hyperactive friend who you encounter at the worst possible time (entering a town after an intense cave, leaving a gym to the pokecenter after a gym battle....etc) who won't shut up with this "OMG YOU OWE ME MONEY BECAUSE YOU WERE LATE" crap. Ugh why can't the newer rivals be more like Gary
Wile I agree with you that Gary was indeed a superior rival I'm left wondering if perhaps you posted in the wrong thread?
In R/B/Y you could actually HATE your rival because he was such an arrogant ass. In G/S/C the rival also was pretty easy to hate - he was a thief, a criminal, and also an arrogant ass. In Ru/Sa/E your rival actually CRIES when you beat him. I'm serious he actually CRIES because you are better than him. WTF. Why would I want such a wimp as my rival?
And the worst offense is Pokemon Diamond/Pearl. Seriously wtf is with the rival in this game. In the originals you loved to hate the rival. Now he's just a hyperactive friend who you encounter at the worst possible time (entering a town after an intense cave, leaving a gym to the pokecenter after a gym battle....etc) who won't shut up with this "OMG YOU OWE ME MONEY BECAUSE YOU WERE LATE" crap. Ugh why can't the newer rivals be more like Gary
What does this have to do with Dragonlance?
Back on topic. I sincerely hope that DL comes around for 4e. Unfortunately, for me anyways, I didn't get into DL until shortly before 2e went out of print, and I wasn't too keen on 3e so I didn't buy any new material for D&D, but I absolutely loved the setting.
MY FIRST POST! I'M SO HARDCORE!
The future of Dragonlance has has nothing to do with rules or magic or any of that. Quite simply whether the setting continues to be published or not, lives or dies, is based on one thing and one thing only.
Are the fans half-retarded or grown up too much???
Originally when DL was created, anyone could pick up the original novels of the first trilogy and enjoy them (and if you can find a decent used bookstore or library, you still can).
However as time went on, Dragonlance stayed stagnant.
"Well how did they stay stagnant if they did all of these earth shattering events?" you ask.
The answer is they (being those in charge of production) didn't stay stagnant in terms of storyline or rules changes, they stayed stagnant in terms of targeting a specific demographic.
They continued for years and years to write books geared toward teens only.
And before you argue that point, I direct you to your local library. Go ahead. Do a search for a DL novel there....that's right...where did you find it? Yep, in the young adults/juvenile section. It doesn't matter what state your in, what city you're in, what library you're at. You'll find the books in the same section every time.
They continued to create for a younger audience. Meanwhile their core audience grew up in real life and many fans simply moved on and left Krynn (and many left D&D for the most part as well).
Eventually they caught on to this and started writing for a more adult audience. This in turn doesn't create new fans to carry on the legacy of DL, it just appeases the core fans that stuck with the setting. Why doesn't it create new fans?
Well my daughter is only 10 years old and thus far has read the first trilogy and is half way through Legends. All on her own! At only ten years old!
Now ask me if I'll let her read the Dark Disciple series?
OF COURSE NOT!
The last thing a ten year old girl needs to read about is some evil god of death sleeping with a woman and "pleasing her".
And that's how it was in that story. No one can argue it. It's in plain black and white. The words are right there. Hell in the Dhamon saga, Dhamon Grimwulf tries to bag two women at once, but ends up a tad too drunk.
New younger fans can't get into the setting with that kind of writing.
And then you get a God awful movie created that essentially talked down to the hard core fans that have stuck with the setting for years, as if they were children.
So you have half the fans being treated as if they're half-retarded because they're being talked down to like kids....and then you have newer fans (like my daughter for example) who can't read all of the books because they're too mature for her.
The point is, the world of DL is a great one! It really is! But those who write the story lines (some of which have posted in this thread specifically) HAVE to understand HOW TO WRITE!
I'm not saying they aren't talented individuals. I'm not saying they do a bad job. In fact I believe quite the opposite. I think they're amazing writers and shouldn't be doing anything else for a living except writing. All of them. From the ones who write the novels, to the ones who work on the gaming supplements.
But they have to learn to stop riding the fence. They have to learn to stop writing novels that most older fans won't bother with because they feel like it's something written towards kids, and they have to stop writing something kids can't read.
They have to stop trying to target a specific demographic with each published work and instead just try to tell a good entertaining story FOR ALL AGES.
Then sales go up. And if sales go up, then Wizards will keep the setting around. If sales flop, they don't keep it around. That's business. And Wizards is in business to make money first and foremost. And who can blame them?
If DL is to survive and move into the 4th Edition era it has to have work created for fans of all ages, instead of each individual book being geared only to specific people.
This is why Forgotten Realms has ALWAYS had decent sales. The folks over there don't try to lay it out so kids can get it. They don't try to write so adults will be entertained. They just try to tell a good story. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mind you, I'm just a fan. Nothing more. Nothing less. And I could be totally wrong in my assessment. But a fan's perspective is what writers need to listen to. And if they don't listen to the fans.....then who exactly are they writing for then?
None of this is any worse than the references made about Kit and Tanis in the Chronicles. What about in the Legends when the bandits capture Raistlin, Caramon, and Crysania and they keep refrencing what the bandits would do to her? How about the refrences to Soth?
I havn't read the any of the Dark Disciple books yet because I can't stand stopping in the middle of a story, but I have read the Dhamon saga and I didn't see anything more risque than stuff presented in the Chronicle or Legends.
Cheers,
Cam
Margaret's Dark Disciple books, and Jean Rabe's Dhamon Saga, are both intended for more mature readers (which, really, is the majority of DL fandom). There's plenty of other teen-friendly stuff out there for Dragonlance, most notably the YA novels. In fact, I'd put those books in the hands of any kid interested in Dragonlance. There's a lot of them, enough to get a really good sense of the setting's strongest themes.
Cheers,
Cam
At what point on any of the 5 novels in question, released thus far, have you seen the words "Mature Readers" or "Intended for Mature Readers".
Yeah, they aren't there.
As I said.....any public library. Juvenile/Young Adult.
None the less, you're stating one of the primary problems. That the majority of DL fandom is mature readers. While yes, I agree with this sentiment, it doesn't excuse the fact, that better efforts need to be done to bring in new younger readers to carry the torch when we're old a gray and can't see the words on a page any more.
And a re-printing with new covers of the original books and calling them a "kid's series" doesn't fall into the category of "better effort". It just falls into the category of "ooooh look Chronicles came out with all new covers.......again."
Don't get me wrong I applaud all of you who have worked extremely hard to keep DL alive, but I feel it won't last if a "better effort" isn't put forth to keep it alive for generations yet to come. Creating gaming supplements and a 4th Edition Campaign book for DL won't convince a 12 year old kid who has never heard of the product, to pick it up. Especially when they can be doing other things like playing around on the internet or goofing off with a PSP.
Mind you, I'm not saying they shouldn't continue to create gaming supplements or anything but, WotC needs to broaden their horizons, and step out into new mediums that kids are already attracted to, if they want the product to still be alive 30 years from now.
Just look at the success in the past from Yu-Gi-Oh and Poke'mon. Why not do a DL card game? Or how about a regular animated series geared toward kids (without crappy CGI of course and with better artists).
Kids have to be considered in all of it. Otherwise no one is "keeping DL alive", as much as they'd like to believe otherwise. They're just holding off the inevitable.
And the same can be said for D&D as a whole.
And a re-printing with new covers of the original books and calling them a "kid's series" doesn't fall into the category of "better effort". It just falls into the category of "ooooh look Chronicles came out with all new covers.......again."
Are you just unaware of the Dragonlance Young Adventures series? Or doesn't that count? I'm not talking about the revised and repackaged versions of Chronicles for the YA audience. I'm talking about these books.
Cheers,
Cam
I love DL, and I like where it is now. I don't want them to go and mess it up. I'm really actually terrified of it, because...well...it looks like they Wunkered up FR. I've never read Eberron, but that bothers me too.
All I have to say is that I'm concerned. When it switched from 2nd to 3rd edition, there was a noticeable change in the flavor of D&D Novels. Dragonlance of course had this flavor change before hand and it was well founded, but FR had some changes that I just plain didn't like.
I love DL, and I like where it is now. I don't want them to go and mess it up. I'm really actually terrified of it, because...well...it looks like they Wunkered up FR. I've never read Eberron, but that bothers me too.
I can certainly sympathize with you on the concern for DL going into 4e. I really enjoy how things are right now in the novels myself. Though I think its about time FR gets a good Wunkering.
I can certainly sympathize with you on the concern for DL going into 4e. I really enjoy how things are right now in the novels myself. Though I think its about time FR gets a good Wunkering.
From the sounds of things in other places on the forums it seems FR is getting just that.
But I'm wondering what Krynn is going to look like after The Dark Disciple concludes. I want to start plotting out some stuff for a 4e Dragonlance campaign in June. But I want to wait for Amber and Blood to see if its worth integrating into what I'm doing.
Cheers,
Cam
Currently there is a problem in the gods, the two leaders are dead. How do we resolve this? Simple, Solinari gives his god power to his father to bring him back. Mina sacrifices Nuitari in a dark ritual to bring Takhisis back. This causes the remaining towers of magic to detonate in wild magic that causes unprecedented growth and mutation of local creatures. Nuitari assumes the God of Magic title alone and keeps her love for her two companions by allowing their followers to continue using magic. Without the towers guidance magic takes a more wild form (the non vancian form) and at the same time warps the abilities of the gods connection with their followers (the prayer system). This leaves for the most part the cities and towns intact, and lots of areas are still the same, but areas that were stable before are now wild, like the qualinesti forest, and the area near Soth's Keep. Plus the wild magic feeds further the devastation caused by the Dragonlords making those places wilder as well.
All in all I think this avoids a Cataclysm, yet at the same time makes a reasonable attempt to use the new magic systems and brings back the good versus evil in the form of Paladine vs Takhisis.
I think I will do a treatment of this and post it at some point.
I personaly would not want to see her back because if she is in the world sooner or later my DL games tend to revolve around the party stopping her latest plot to take over the world.
The best thing that War of Souls did was really scramble the factions and nations of Ansalon.
Instead of White Stone vs. Dragon Armies we now have dozens of conflicts, with lots of factions caught in an ever shifting web of alliance and enmity.
The minotaurs are a aggressive race and the "bad guys" except when they are fighting the ogres or the dark knights.
The elves, dwarves and solmanics all have much more complicated situations and motivations then during the war of the lance.
we also have relatively new factions (mystics, sorcerers, the Draconian Nation, Legion of Steel etc.) thrown into the mix with the returning clerics, gods, and wizards of high sorcery.
Taking Tahkisis and Paladine out of the equations also opens gaping power vacuums in the good and evil pantheons.
Any structural changes in 4E can be easily explained by being the consequence of any combination of the lingering effects of 1) Chaos on the world, 2) the stealing of the world, 3) the death of Takhisis, 4) the return of the gods, and 5) the effects of Mina coming into her apparent goddesshood. Any one of these things might not be enough to alter how clerical and arcane magic works by themselves, but the combined trauma of all these events in rapid order is sure to cause instability in the very fabric of Krynn.
This could also cause Kyrnn to begin to come into contact with other planes (the far realms, feywild, feydark etc..)that it has been previously separate from.
In short Ansalon is a pretty chaotic and strange place these days. Any and anything form 4E that you would want to include want not be that out of place.
Besides when in doubt you can always use the standby explanation...
Raistlin did it.