A little background, I have one regular player who really likes kender. When I ran Scourge of the Howling Horde for my players, the player was dead set on playing a kender rogue with converted mechanics. Having never heard of the race at this time, I grudging allowed it and bastardized the rules to create one. On top of the work I had to do, the kender rogue kept "borrowing" and managed to annoy the whole party and me (both in and out of character).
I must admit I've soured on the concept of the kender but I want to be a fair DM. I want my player to have one more chance in case it comes up. I ask you all with Dragonlance familiarity of how kenders can be played without them being annoying and disruptive. If this is impossible, I am prepared to slam the banhammer on them. Thank you.
I'm not trying to start a flamefest but I would like to know how to deal with this race when it comes up. I'm finding myself personally disliking them and I've found I'm far from alone on it.
A little background, I have one regular player who really likes kender. When I ran Scourge of the Howling Horde for my players, the player was dead set on playing a kender rogue with converted mechanics. Having never heard of the race at this time, I grudging allowed it and bastardized the rules to create one. On top of the work I had to do, the kender rogue kept "borrowing" and managed to annoy the whole party and me (both in and out of character).
I must admit I've soured on the concept of the kender but I want to be a fair DM. I want my player to have one more chance in case it comes up. I ask you all with Dragonlance familiarity of how kenders can be played without them being annoying and disruptive. If this is impossible, I am prepared to slam the banhammer on them. Thank you.
IMO, it sounds like your player is over emphasizing the "Borrowing" aspect of Kenders.
Still, there's not really an easy way to get around it unless you put your foot down and tell him how much its actually disrupting everyone's enjoyment. Talking with him will probably alleviate the problem... And if it doesn't, then use the banhammer, lol.
As much as I like Kender in the novels they don't make good PCs because while the things they do in the stories generally work as a bit of comic relief but in a real game it disrupts the game badly at best and really pisses off the other players at worst.
Agreed. Kender invite griefing. They can be played in a funny way that is fun for the whole group of players, but they very rarely are in my experience.
I'm very worried about the hints from people who have advanced copies of Races & Classes that the new 4e Halflings will be picking up the Kender trait of "borrowing" things for this reason.
I think you should ask your friend to be candid. If he's playing a kender so that he can steal from his friends without retribution, he's an ass. If he just likes kender and doesn't realize he's being an ass, gently inform him of it. Heh.
Its kinda funny how it takes more maturity to play immature characters...
1) The characters were all Lawful Good followers of St. Cuthbert. I know the setting is wrong. The setting is indeed wrong but I was DMing in the player's house and the player was being stubborn. I've fixed this by table rules that amount to "no means no."
2) Kender all seem to lack the emotional intelligence/common sense to figure out "Gee, non-kender don't like it when I 'borrow' their stuff. Maybe I should stop."
If there are examples of them figuring this out early in their lives, then I might be more willing to let players use them in the future.
From the stories - yeah great, comic relief, spunky, and etc. Sadly it seems like they are the favorite race of histories worst players. I could tell you stories ...
... sad frustrating stories that end badly. I really think the problem comes back to the "borrowing" ... ability ... I really don't think that the Handling/Borrowing thing should be treated as such. It really is just stealing. I guess that "mechanically" its supposed to represent the "usefullness" of their sociological prediliction for "holding on to important things" but players (in my experience) seem to want to play kender to take the other players' equipment and avoid acting like an adult.
They are not children! Most people tend to play them like hyperactive 12 year olds. In my homebrew rules (to try and prevent such abuse) I do not give kender said power. I give them skill bonuses to slight of hand and bluff to allude to the behavior.
Nonetheless the "idea of Kender" always manages to override good sense.
When I play a Kender I like to play fighters. Something about a "hard nosed" little warrior with a "short man" complex.. its fun, but I guess I could do as much with a halfling. Except.. I really like the "fearless" thing. To me that is a better defining trait than their helpful holding of your things. Maybe I am not keeping up to date (and making too many of my own rules), but I seem to recall that the current Kender write up has them with +4 bonuses against fear; however I clearly recall (from the narratives) that their immunity to fear is supernatural and on par with a paladins' immunity.
Thats what I think of Kender "a race of cute little paladins" ... that should be their favored class ...
yeah ...
Kender Paladin...Why Not
Kinder (shea's world version of Kender).
Material Plane Elendi (aka elf).
Kinder (shea's world version of Kender).
Material Plane Elendi (aka elf).
- -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity.
- Size: Small
- Speed: Land 30' Swim 10'
- +2 racial bonus to Escape Artist, Move Silently, and Slight of Hand checks.
- Fearless (su): Kinder are immune to any form of nonmagical fear, and recieve a +10 to resist fear effects. The presence of Kinder grants a +4 bonus to will saves vs fear to the Kinders' allies.
- Taunt (su): A Kinder may use a standard action to incite a rage in a target living creature. The target may choose to resist (or end) this rage by making a Will Save DC (10 + 1/2 kender's level + Cha modifier). Otherwise this rage is exactly like the Barbarian Class Feature. Taunt is a language dependant mind effecting ability.
- Bad Reputation: Kinder are generally disliked for no good reason. NPCs default to Unfriendly instead of Indifferent. Kinder also suffer a -4 to all Diplomacy rolls, but gain a +2 to Bluff when they are attempting to avoid trouble.
- Favored Class: Paladin.
http://www.kencyclopedia.com/kender/roleplaying/PlayingTrueKender.cfm
however, not all players can "role play" a Kender well.
especially the ones that are looking for an excuse to be an irritant.
In my experience, there is nothing wrong with the race itself.
however, not all players can "role play" a Kender well.
especially the ones that are looking for an excuse to be an irritant.
I think this goes for many races from every campaign setting. Troll, Were-creatures, Gargoyle, Dragon, etc., etc.
The main difference is that Kender is one of the "main" races in DL. That coupled with the fact that almost every Kender becomes a Tasslehoff clone as most people do not know of any other examples of the race.
Because of that, a good role-player should never say “I steal that guys coin purse on he way out”, that would be conscious act, and out of line with Kender mentality. This puts when / what the Kender steals into the hands of the DM, not the player.
When one of my players played a Kender, we went over this before the campaign started. Whenever I felt like it, I would give the Kender small bits of treasure that they had no idea how it got there (just like in the books). Also, when another PC pulled out an item, I would roll behind the screen. On a “00” (or if I just felt like it), they couldn’t find what they needed. Searching the Kender would normally do the trick. I don’t think any Kender in the stories ever stole anyone’s weapons, mostly small stuff. Potions here or there, shiny stuff preferred. (“I cast identify” “No, you can’t find a pearl” “But have 5 of them” “Sorry, you can’t seem to find them.”)
Need a plot hook? Easy, someone noticed the Kender swiping something. (Player doesn’t get to complain, playing a Kender was there idea!) How about powerful bad-guy cast “Scry” to find his lost little whatever? Guess who has it?
Having Kender in the campaign is also a good way to remove items that turn out to be a bit over powered. Maybe your Kender took it, but then he sat in a bar with a half dozen other Kender that one night. (When this happens, they tend to spend most of the night going though each other’s pouches, you know “just to look”.)
Talk this out with your player and see what they think. (Even works for Kender rogues. They have a more extreme form of kleptomania, and happen to be good with locks!)
--Gara
As much as I like Kender in the novels they don't make good PCs because while the things they do in the stories generally work as a bit of comic relief but in a real game it disrupts the game badly at best and really pisses off the other players at worst.
to a certain degree I agree with this statement, most people play a kender worse than they actually are in krynn.
If a person is capable (which is rare, it takes a great roleplayer to pull off a kender) a kender is an asset and truly enjoyable character to have in any group.
The player must remember Kender are curious not stupid. Just remeber Tasselhof burrfoot would not go near Raistlin's staff once he was warned by raistlin.
On that note if the player was unable to play the kender well without in the past unless he has significantly shown improvement I would not allow him to play a Kender and if I did it would be with the understanding that I ( the dm ) could cancel said character at any time if the player proved unable to play it correctly.
Kender issues stem from players, not from the setting.
Kender are great fun to play, and like *any* rogue-type character might be inclined to take things that catch their eye. However, it is my opinion that the "borrowing" aspect of kender is largely subconscious and should thus be largely dictated by the DM. The kender should, from time to time, find things (or have things found) on his person that he didn't consciously take and have to explain it away.
Kender, when run properly, are a great race to play, and are really cool people. The problem is that everyone runs them like evil souless theives instead of people who just are curious ADD'ers.
Kender issues stem from players, not from the setting.
amen, shorter version of what i was trying to say
Here is a hint, if the kender is getting too out-of-control, try cursed magical items, they worked for me. (Kenders have no sense of fear, you tell them it's magic and the will use it, no questions asked) My last kender found a +2 leather armor that was intelligent and Lawful Good (made by a palidin I beleive) that OUT LOUD tried to lecture me everytime I tried to "borrow" something or sneak attack. It sucked....., but was still fun to play!
She gave him some thieving abilities, which I didn't understand the concept of needing super powers and such, I would just randomly pick someone and try my hand at pick pocketing. I didn't even realize that I could try to pick something specific, so I would roll the dice (secretly) and Mum would decide what I got, and I got everyone at least once. Like any good kid, I got distracted easily and had the character go off and do other things. It was great, and all the players had fun with it. I gave him the surname "Rabbitslayer" to make it sound more Kenderish.
The only other Kender I've played with for any amount of time was my Dad's character, an Oriental Kender named Shu Wei (Because every time he'd do something stupid, they would just shake their heads and go Shu Wee, which was one of Dad's favorite sayings.). He was awesome too. He did a great job of it.
All in all, I think it's the players problem playing the Kender, and not the Kender's. To play a real Kender, you have to think like a Child, though not a hyperactive one. You have to be ready to put your life on the line to ask a Dragon what it's like to be a dragon when other players are cowering for their lives. You have to be ready to empty your pouch at any given moment, just to show others who may or may not be interested your collection, to give up any item because items belong to everyone and just don't matter, and you have to be willing to think enough out of the box to come up with hairbrained schemes that might actually work!!
ViVa la Kender!!
However, in the case of kender Handling, this is an entirely subconscious act. Both of these are Canon, and therefore, to properly reflect the subconscious nature of handling at the game table, you cannot leave the decision to handle upto the player.
Its that simple.
For my 4th edition games, I will be giving Kender the following racial traits:
Kender Handling:
Kender are given their first lockpicks as a child, and are known for subconsciously acquiring the possessions of others.
Benefit: Gain Skill Training: Thievery as a bonus feat.
Pouch Grab: Kender Racial Power
You reach into your pouches and pull out something useful
Encounter * Pouch
Standard Action
Action: Make a Thievery Check as part of this powers activation.
Benefit: You retrieve one item from your pouches which you were unaware you possessed. The power and usefulness of this item is dependant upon the check result. You can use this object for the remainder of the encounter or until returned to your pouches.
The specific object retrieved, and its source, is up to the DM, but should be an item the character has come into contact with recently, no larger than a bread-box, and be no more powerful than the following:
DC 0: You find a feather, a dead mouse, a marble, a fork or some other useless item.
DC 10: You find a random personal item, a minor item belonging to another character, a dagger, or some other small mundane item.
DC 15: You find a small gem, a useful personal or mundane item, or minor plot device.
DC 20: You find a gem, useful personal or mundane item, average plot device, or minor magical item.
DC 25: You find a valuable gem, valuable personal or mundane item, major plot device, or average magical item.
DC 30: You find a valuable personal or magical item, major plot device, or major magical item.
DC 35: You find an artifact
This way, the player gets to retain the feeling of acquiring objects that don't belong to them, while simultaneously making their racial tendancy a plot device under the control of the DM...
they are worth the aggravation as long as the players using them borrow from other people a lot more than they do the other PC's.
it's a delicate balance, but i've seen more than one kender save the day for everyone. they don't get much praise for it because they are annoying, but they are still capable of being effective. immunity to fear in a campaign rich with dragons with dragon fear is a big plus.
I must admit I've soured on the concept of the kender but I want to be a fair DM.
As many do, that is why they keep them out of their D&D.
I want my player to have one more chance in case it comes up. I ask you all with Dragonlance familiarity of how kenders can be played without them being annoying and disruptive.
They can't, it is their nature to be annoying which leads to disruptiveness. It would be like someone chewing their food loud, and it annoys you, but you can't tell the person not to eat, and they just don't get the idea of chewing quietly.
Annoyance is subjective on the person being annoyed, as a Dwarf, Minotaur, or half-orc tends to have less patience for them then an elf does. Of course, that is all taking into account that you are keeping the kender in dragonlance where they are known and tolerated. Move them to another setting and you have an entire population that has no clue about there quirks and you are asking for trouble.
If this is impossible, I am prepared to slam the banhammer on them.
When the players at your table sit down to play DragonLance they accept the idea that kender exist, and that they may have to contend with a PC of that race. The problem comes when you attempt to import kender into other settings, as a lot of players don't like dragonlance because of the “annoying kender”. They don't play dragonlance because they don't want to deal with the kender.
If I ever import a kender I do so only after I have the blessings of all involved, meaning I give the other players a chance to say “No, I didn't sign on for this!” That way when the annoying starts I say “you said it was cool, now deal with it.”
Putting an unwanted kender in a group of players is a torture that can only be matched by listening to the same Barney CD on repeat for days on end.
Personally, if a kender player isn't p**sing me off, they are doing something wrong.
As much as I like Kender in the novels they don't make good PCs because while the things they do in the stories generally work as a bit of comic relief but in a real game it disrupts the game badly at best and really pisses off the other players at worst.
This is a very true statement. It is like watching a funny movie where a dog pees on a guys leg, but it's not so funny when the dog pees on your leg.
Just to clarify, the player "borrowed" from everyone BUT the party and aroused a great deal of ire among the townsfolk. The reason this is tough is because there was no malice on the part of either the player or the character. What made it hard is this:
1) The characters were all Lawful Good followers of St. Cuthbert. I know the setting is wrong. The setting is indeed wrong but I was DMing in the player's house and the player was being stubborn. I've fixed this by table rules that amount to "no means no."
2) Kender all seem to lack the emotional intelligence/common sense to figure out "Gee, non-kender don't like it when I 'borrow' their stuff. Maybe I should stop."
If there are examples of them figuring this out early in their lives, then I might be more willing to let players use them in the future.
Again this all is dependent on the setting. In dragonlance people know how kender are and adjust accordingly. Some shops ban them, some people automatically go to them when they discover something missing. They know how kender operate and don't kill them for being kender. People in Dragonlance tend to view kender as being kids that can't help but pee their pants.
Outside dragonlance there is a lot less understanding on the sides of the people. Theft is theft, and the ability to grasp the fact that this race can't help themselves is slim at best, because that is not common knowledge for them.
1)lawful good characters in DL understand kender, most likely wouldn't travel with them for precisely the “borrowing” reason, but wouldn't punish them outright either.
2)Think of kender as kids, without fear! Once you do that it's a lot easier.
There is a much simpler way to deal with this, but it requires an understanding between the DM and the player. That understanding is this: Kender “handling” is pathological, not conscious.
Because of that, a good role-player should never say “I steal that guys coin purse on he way out”, that would be conscious act, and out of line with Kender mentality. This puts when / what the Kender steals into the hands of the DM, not the player.
When one of my players played a Kender, we went over this before the campaign started. Whenever I felt like it, I would give the Kender small bits of treasure that they had no idea how it got there (just like in the books). Also, when another PC pulled out an item, I would roll behind the screen. On a “00” (or if I just felt like it), they couldn’t find what they needed. Searching the Kender would normally do the trick. I don’t think any Kender in the stories ever stole anyone’s weapons, mostly small stuff. Potions here or there, shiny stuff preferred. (“I cast identify” “No, you can’t find a pearl” “But have 5 of them” “Sorry, you can’t seem to find them.”)
Need a plot hook? Easy, someone noticed the Kender swiping something. (Player doesn’t get to complain, playing a Kender was there idea!) How about powerful bad-guy cast “Scry” to find his lost little whatever? Guess who has it?
Having Kender in the campaign is also a good way to remove items that turn out to be a bit over powered. Maybe your Kender took it, but then he sat in a bar with a half dozen other Kender that one night. (When this happens, they tend to spend most of the night going though each other’s pouches, you know “just to look”.)
Talk this out with your player and see what they think. (Even works for Kender rogues. They have a more extreme form of kleptomania, and happen to be good with locks!)
This is all very good stuff here. I would add to have the player take an old dice bag, and write all his stuff on sticky pad sheets, one item per sheet, fold them square and put them in the dice bag. In between games you can add things to this dice bag (from the other players inventories as well), and when the kender is looking for something (no matter the situation) have the player blindly start picking out an item per round. Don't tell them you are adding things to the bag, let them be as surprised as everyone else when they pull X out.
In the case of taking from other players inventories play it down, if the player finds it missing. Just be like it's gone. Don't point it at the kender. Then the player can start picking from the dice bag if they decide to try and find their stuff. As the dice bag tends to get pretty full most players will give up.
That said while in game play count how many times the kender walks into a bar, or a crowd. Don't say it out loud but for every three rounds they are in the situation add something to their “loot bag”. Between this session and the next. You can even throw random magic items in there like rings and what not. As no one knows what it is or where it came from they are as likely to throw the ring in another pocket as they are to try it on.
Here is a hint, if the kender is getting too out-of-control, try cursed magical items
This is a good idea too. Also Trixten brought up the kenders fearlessness which is as much a boon as a curse. It's cool when the kender rushes to your aid when the odds are stacked against you, Not so cool when the kender's mouth or actions are the cause of your situation in the first place.
My first character ever played was a Kender when I was 8 years old. Mum wanted to make the game as basic for me as she could, and so she gave me a human fighter. It became clear after my first game that my maturity level wasn't quite up to playing an adult
And that is the perfect player for a kender, they have the same mindset, as seeing as how it is a kid at the table the other players are less likely to throttle them for dumb kender stuff.
All said, kender are fun to play, and fun to be around in limited quantities. I tend to let my “every once in a while” players use one, where I keep them out of the “always there” core group because they tend to get old rather quickly when one is subjected to the constant pressure of all that the kender present.
...the kender rogue kept "borrowing" and managed to annoy the whole party and me (both in and out of character)
Sounds like your player did a good job as a kender. LOL
