I just want to state i wont be buying anything from wotc. To all at wotc please dont be begging me for money at Gen Con or from any of your product.
Im through with this company and there disrespect they have shown to Margaret,Tracy and all of the DL fans.
However, seeing this one repeated in successive posts just got me. You don't "reign" something in, you "rein" it in. Like when you're riding a horse, and you pull on the reins to slow or stop it. "Reign" is what kings do. (And "rain" is what clouds do.)
If "Don Quixote" had been written in the internet age, then perhaps the idiom "tilting at windmills" would have been replaced by something about correcting the spelling on internet message boards: it is probably an exercise in futility.
However, seeing this one repeated in successive posts just got me. You don't "reign" something in, you "rein" it in. Like when you're riding a horse, and you pull on the reins to slow or stop it. "Reign" is what kings do. (And "rain" is what clouds do.)
Your so right. It drives me crazy. I spend hours pouring over posts, gnashing my teeth over incorrect spelling's. Their's really nothing that you can do about it, though. You just have to grin and bare it.
:D
Rotten news about the DL books, too. I thought that Sovereign Press' custodianship of the DL line was the setting's finest hour since its debut. Here's hoping that the line can make its way back to its rightful home sooner rather than later!
Your so right. It drives me crazy. I spend hours pouring over posts, gnashing my teeth over incorrect spelling's. Their's really nothing that you can do about it, though. You just have to grin and bare it.
You do know there are three words incorrectly spelled in your post, don't you? ;)
Back on topic, I am also quite disappointed to not see "Dragons of the Hourglass Mage" or others in the foreseeable future.
You do know there are three words incorrectly spelled in your post, don't you? ;)
Theirs nothing wrong with my spelling, nor my grammer neither. So quit hastling me!
You do know there are three words incorrectly spelled in your post, don't you? ;)
-That's kinda the joke. Irony, you know?
You do know there are three words incorrectly spelled in your post, don't you? ;)
Back on topic, I am also quite disappointed to not see "Dragons of the Hourglass Mage" or others in the foreseeable future.
-That's kinda the joke. Irony, you know?
Indeed ;)
(There are actually five, but why split hares?)
Indeed ;)
(There are actually five, but why split hares?)
you, sir, are evil. pure evil.
(also, because who wants to eat a whole rabbit?)
Not cool at all.
Was there any real reason given as to why they were canceled?
Or is it yet another case of WotC's usual "our staff are almighty and you do not question their powers, foolish mortals" narcissism that they usually suffer from....?
Must resist the urge to make the WotC booth reps and the Penny Arcade Expo utterly miserable...
I officially give up on this company... *sigh*
Actually, I think I just might grill the booth reps at PAX....
I promise I'll be nice... Unless it's the same jerks from the booth last year, in which case, those $&%!@ deserve to be miserable.
On a side note, the folks at WotC might want to make sure the people that represent their company at con booths actually know WTF they're talking about, 'cause the guys in Seattle last year had the IQs of a glass of water.
Actually, that's an insult to water glasses....
Was there any real reason given as to why they were canceled?
No. And given their history, don't expect any official announcement from WotC about this.
No new contracts are being handed out for DL books, period. At this point, the line is done at the end of 2009.
No. And given their history, don't expect any official announcement from WotC about this.
No new contracts are being handed out for DL books, period. At this point, the line is done at the end of 2009.
There is/was a Dragonlance Podcast that interviewed Tracey on this subject, and he stated (and this is not a quote) that he was never given any reason either.
Well Margaret weis has just posted that Wotc has cancelled the last 4 of these books.
Can you link this so we can read it first hand?
http://www.dragonlanceforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17229
I know that there are several settings that people focus on.
But my sole reason for gaming is Dragonlance, I have read the novels for years (since the begining) and it is the only setting I have any real interest in.
I sure hope they will finish the Ogre titan series, otherwise I have allready read my last book and have nothing to look foreword too.
Cheers,
Cam
Thank you Wizards, for saving D&D by buying the faltering TSR, Inc., and then proceeding to systematically destroy everything that made it good and fun.
I'd hoped to introduce my children to the hobby one day, but now I won't so long as your logo is on the book. Thankfully I have several bookshelves full of classic materials and there are other companies that put out better products.
We will do just fine without you.
Goodbye.
P.S. - Death to tyrants, monopolies, and the GSL! :fight!:
Well Margaret weis has just posted that Wotc has cancelled the last 4 of these books. In short there are no more Dragonlance books scheduled after 09. So as i look at it DL has been cancelled. No novels or gaming books in the future you get the picture.
I just want to state i wont be buying anything from wotc. To all at wotc please dont be begging me for money at Gen Con or from any of your product.
Im through with this company and there disrespect they have shown to Margaret,Tracy and all of the DL fans.
I completely agree. DL was And Still Is a well compiled world with amazing concepts, depth, and backstory. As were its characters.
To put it plainly,
I will no longer be purchasing from WotC
now if WotC had said "hey, we're not going to offer to let you renew the license in 2010 because we're planning on doing something with it in that year" chances are there would be a lot fewer angry fans of the setting.
instead, wizards are being a bunch of morons and have basically just announced "hey, we're shutting down this setting to you, and we're not going to even tell you whether we're actually going to do anything with it or not."
personally, i rather suspect they're planning on doing something with it, which is why they're ending things. that doesn't change the fact that they're being incredibly stupid about how they go about doing it though. kinda like when they consolidated the other world boards. they asked for opinions on what to do on a board that (almost) nobody from here ever visits, and then went ahead and changed everything based on the fact that nobody said anything. sure, they have their reasons, but when they just do something like this and then don't tell anyone, it's a slap in the face to the fans, and nobody (well... almost nobody) likes getting slapped in the face.
so basically, what's happening is that the marketing department at WotC appears to be dumber than a rock. the entire department apparently doesn't have the slightest clue about how to keep their fans happy. they don't have any idea what they're doing, as far as i can tell. or if they do, then they simply don't care (in fact, i can say that regarding the change they made to these boards, they knew people wouldn't like and they have openly said they don't care if it does upset their fans). frankly, it's a really stupid move to cancel a successful book line, and it's even dumber to make the one fan community that actually stayed strong enough to keep their favorite setting commercially viable mad at them.
so actually, based on the fact that it's pretty clear dragonlance was a successful setting and that there is money to be made on it (based on the fact that someone was presumably making money off it even after paying licensing fees to WotC) i rather suspect it's 3rd or 4th on the list of settings WotC will be reviving. if their marketing team had any idea what they were actually doing, the instead of running around making everyone mad, they would be telling the fans that they are *not* killing the setting, but that they are instead planning on bringing it back soon and so they need to have the rights back to it.
but hey, if they want to make everyone mad at them, that's their prerogative. i don't own any shares of WotC (or hasbro), so i certainly don't get any input into how they run things. if i *did* own shares though, i'd be really PO'd about how things are being handled there. they've done some things well, but they have also really badly screwed up in a number of other things with 4th edition. too bad they don't actually bother paying any attention to these forums, or they might be able to get some easy market research done... instead, they pretty much just seem to assume they know what we want, and go with that. and unsurprisingly, that can sometimes backfire on them. this is one of those times.
Eberron
Planescape
Dark Sun
Ravenloft
Rich Burlews Secret Campaign
Greyhawk
Ghostwalk
Wheel of Time
Spelljammer
Al' Quadim
and a half dozen others
What do you expect wizards to do? Have every campaign setting fully fleshed out within 30 days of release? Then what would you do for the next 5-8 years?
that is horrid!! no more DL?!?!?! gaaah!! that sucks!! not even a 4ed campaign guide?
4e Dragonlance would be fairly easy to homebrew. Make Dragonborn evil, no clerics, maybe no paladins, halflings to Kender, etc. Not that hard (of course I'm sure to offend as I'm just a huge fan of the original books and not a hardcore DL geek...)
What do you expect wizards to do? Have every campaign setting fully fleshed out within 30 days of release? Then what would you do for the next 5-8 years?
Gee, I dunno.....
Maybe actually play the games?
No one asked them to have everything set and ready within such a ridiculous time frame.
Most of us are just asking for simple confirmation on whether or not they plan to release the setting within their own given "every 2 years" time frame.
Expecting an answer to whether or not they're even bothering to plan future releases, or just let the property rot from here on out isn't really that much to ask for.
Thing is, many RPers (at least all the ones I've ever known) have been playing in some of these settings for years, or even decades.
I don't think WotC has to worry much about a large portion of their fan base just up and leaving their favorite settings.
That's why so many people fume over some of the older campaigns getting the short end of the stick in favor of the "almighty god of campaigns, FR, which we all must worship or STFU cause they don't give a rats a** about us then anyways".
(as if the complaints and debates on these, and similar forums, wasn't proof enough that many older campaigns are still popular with fans)
After nearly 25 years, DL is still makes them a decent amount of money - or would anyway, if the folks at WotC didn't purposely run it into the ground.
Even after years, and sometimes decades of giving them money to support such a product, they're now content to simply give fans the finger, sweep things under the rug, and pretend it never happened.
Whether or not they're going to let the DL RP setting just rot in the closet, they could at least let the fans have a few novels to keep them occupied in the meantime, rather than just sitting there, fingers firmly planted in their ears, singing "lala we're not listening" when fans ask for any details.
But apparently, even that's just too much to ask from them.
And since the books are canceled (sucks for us), why, heaven forbid they come out and say why they were canceled....
Too tiresome for their "PR" (Ha!) I guess.
Gee golly... I wonder why some get a "little perturbed"....
Kinda looks like you guys should start a club along with all the guys from...
Eberron
Planescape
Dark Sun
Ravenloft
Rich Burlews Secret Campaign
Greyhawk
Ghostwalk
Wheel of Time
Spelljammer
Al' Quadim
and a half dozen others
What do you expect wizards to do? Have every campaign setting fully fleshed out within 30 days of release? Then what would you do for the next 5-8 years?
here's the thing... none of those other settings were really being published and then got cancelled just now. dragonlance is not a dead setting (or at least, it wasn't until WotC released 4th edition and kept the rights to make it themselves). you could have walked into a gaming store and bought dragonlance roleplaying books for most of the time 3.0 and 3.5 D&D were out. new dragonlance novels were being written regularly, and published. go ahead and try to find dark sun, spelljammer, or al quadim novels anytime since 3rd edition came out (heck, it was hard enough finding those RPG books and/or novels when they first came out, from what i hear).
to be perfectly honest, i'm not a huge fan of dragonlance (although i certainly prefer it greatly over the forgotten realms). but i can absolutely understand why they're upset, not just that their product line seems to have been arbitrarily cancelled, but that wizards of the coast is choosing not to say anything on the matter. like i said, i rather suspect that WotC is planning on 'reviving' dragonlance (though as i also said, dragonlance wasn't dead as a published setting until WotC took the rights back), but we don't know, because they won't say anything about it, and *that* seems to be what is making everyone upset. not just that WotC is taking the rights back, (which i'm sure the fans expected to happen sooner or later) but that WotC took the rights back, cancelled some already-in the planning stages novels, and won't even say why.
like i said, the marketing people at WotC suck. a lot. they're making fans angry for no reason, and they probably don't even pay enough attention to actually be aware of that fact, which they could easily do if they weren't too stupid to use their own forums as market research which they were already going to pay for anyways.
so yeah, i personally don't particularly mind all that much if dragonlance gets converted or not (and really, it's not as if it's all that different from core D&D anyways, you just need to introduce a few races/monsters, and remove a few others). in fact, i would almost be willing to bet (that is, if i actually placed bets on anything i would be willing to place a bet on this) that a fan conversion would probably do a better job of making dragonlance feel like dragonlance than WotC will. (say hello to the spellplague, inhabitants of Krynn!)
the only settings i am actually particularly interested in seeing released are actually situations where i'm not interested in the setting per se (which is already released and can be purchased in PDF format for somewhere in the neighbourhood of $4-$5 USD per book or boxed set) but rather updated rules for a handful of specific things. i'd like to see birthright released, but mostly because i want to see some domain rules. i want to see spelljammer released, but mostly because i want to see some ship combat rules (note: i would certainly be more than happy to use these rules with the settings they are attached to, but i'd be perfectly happy only getting the rules i mentioned, and using the old PDFs to get the actual setting is what i mean).
because really, i'm not sure i care to see what WotC is going to do to (note: not 'with' but 'to') my favorite settings. i'll probably buy the books (assuming i feel D&D 4th edition is worth updating to; i haven't really checked into that yet) but i doubt i'll use the updated settings they provide, because i'm not convinced they're going to do a good job of updating the settings. thankfully, i can just ignore their flavor text, and play in the actual setting instead of whatever is left of it when wizards is through with it, and unless they do a decent job of translating them to 4th edition, that is likely what i'll do.
and to dragonlance fans, i would certainly recommend the simple route of adding in those races/creatures they need for their setting, and using only the section of the rules in the 4th edition rulebooks that fit dragonlance. if WotC doesn't have the common courtesy to tell you when they're going to make the setting, then i would say just go ahead and make the few changes that are actually needed, and play in your favorite setting. sadly, there's not much i can suggest to replace the novels (well, i suppose there's always fanfiction)
Well Margaret weis has just posted that Wotc has cancelled the last 4 of these books. In short there are no more Dragonlance books scheduled after 09. So as i look at it DL has been cancelled. No novels or gaming books in the future you get the picture.
I just want to state i wont be buying anything from wotc. To all at wotc please dont be begging me for money at Gen Con or from any of your product.
Im through with this company and there disrespect they have shown to Margaret,Tracy and all of the DL fans.
Wow. You don't see them doing that to Ed Greenwood regarding the Realms, which then-TSR bought and now WotC owns.
Something must be seriously wrong with the new-school WotC.
After nearly 25 years, DL is still makes them a decent amount of money - or would anyway, if the folks at WotC didn't purposely run it into the ground.
I've always believed that the one thing that the Realms had and Greyhawk didn't was a successful line of novels. WotC made a half-hearted attempt at a line of Greyhawk novels during 3E, but that seems to have been aborted rather quickly. And good luck finding any of Gary Gygax's Gord the Rogue books in print....
But WotC always had another line of successful novels. And I don't mean the Ravenloft books (though it is rather impressive to have gotten some of the big names of fantasy horror to have written some of those). No, I mean the Dragonlance novels.
The novels draw people into the settings. It's not the only way to sell the settings, but it is effective. So that makes this decision all the more puzzling.
It's not like they've announced Dragonlance 4E, and they don't want the novels to conflict. Why pull the novels now?
If "Don Quixote" had been written in the internet age, then perhaps the idiom "tilting at windmills" would have been replaced by something about correcting the spelling on internet message boards: it is probably an exercise in futility.
However, seeing this one repeated in successive posts just got me. You don't "reign" something in, you "rein" it in. Like when you're riding a horse, and you pull on the reins to slow or stop it. "Reign" is what kings do. (And "rain" is what clouds do.)
[Singing] To dream... the impossible Dream! To fight the unbeatable foe! To bear with unbearable spellings... [/Singing]
Truly a sad day.
Thank you Wizards, for saving D&D by buying the faltering TSR, Inc., and then proceeding to systematically destroy everything that made it good and fun.
I hope you're referring to everything AFTER 3e, which they did good at the time.
But without guys like Ryan Dancey, WotC is not the company it used to be.
Wow. You don't see them doing that to Ed Greenwood regarding the Realms, which then-TSR bought and now WotC owns.
Something must be seriously wrong with the new-school WotC.
Which is why there has been rumblings that Wizards might be sold by Hasbro. Of course, the new-school WotC could be the answer to those rumblings. Who really knows at this point.
Who was the creator of Eberron, was it Keith Baker? I wonder if WotC publicly spits in his face the same way they do with W&H. I really wonder if Ed Greenwood really has that much of a cordial relationship with WotC of if he is just not making the fuss he should be making.
Who was the creator of Eberron, was it Keith Baker? I wonder if WotC publicly spits in his face the same way they do with W&H.
If they did, do you think he would continue to work there? Last I checked, he is still on WotC's payroll.
If they did, do you think he would continue to work there? Last I checked, he is still on WotC's payroll.
I thought he was still a freelancer. (AFAIK, he's still doing work for them, though, so your point remains valid.)
I don't know if this really proves anything, but Keith Baker isn't listed on the WotC staff blogs forum, and he posts as "Hellcow," not as "WotC_Keith" or anything like that. (Here is his profile.)
I can't say whether Mr. Baker has been treated any better than Mr. Greenwood, or if it's just that Eberron hasn't been around as long, so the opportunities for maltreatment haven't been as numerous yet.
Well Margaret weis has just posted that Wotc has cancelled the last 4 of these books. In short there are no more Dragonlance books scheduled after 09. So as i look at it DL has been cancelled. No novels or gaming books in the future you get the picture.
I just want to state i wont be buying anything from wotc. To all at wotc please dont be begging me for money at Gen Con or from any of your product.
Im through with this company and there disrespect they have shown to Margaret,Tracy and all of the DL fans.
Device of Time Traveling and Takhisises stealing the world. Dragonlance deserved to be canceled so it could be rebuilt from the ground up. It's too childish of a setting to really stand among worlds like Eberron and Faerun. It needs the retooling desperately. (No I don't care that I spelled that name wrong, not in the slightest. Let's just call her Tiamat with boobs and be honest about it) Sp had long ago lost the right to use the DL license (wotc didn't renew it this was probably a year or so ago IIRC)
They stopped production so they could start it anew. This is a good thing. Especially with the consistency issues that world faces right now.
I can't say whether Mr. Baker has been treated any better than Mr. Greenwood, or if it's just that Eberron hasn't been around as long, so the opportunities for maltreatment haven't been as numerous yet.
Well, Keith did entered the setting search contest, so trying to draw up a prize-winning setting in so short a time didn't leave much to enjoy it as one would Ed Greenwood, who have written the FR/Faerun setting for such a long time before he decided to share some of it on Dragon magazines, and eventually sold it to then-TSR.
Device of Time Traveling and Takhisises stealing the world. Dragonlance deserved to be canceled so it could be rebuilt from the ground up. It's too childish of a setting to really stand among worlds like Eberron and Faerun. It needs the retooling desperately. (No I don't care that I spelled that name wrong, not in the slightest. Let's just call her Tiamat with boobs and be honest about it) Sp had long ago lost the right to use the DL license (wotc didn't renew it this was probably a year or so ago IIRC)
They stopped production so they could start it anew. This is a good thing. Especially with the consistency issues that world faces right now.
oh, of course, how could we all be so foolish as to think that a setting which has continued to be a financial success could somehow not need rebooting? based on what i've heard about the spellplague, i'm not sure WotC should be responsible for updating *any* of the settings they own.
seriously, maybe you should consider for a second that the last thing we need is another bloody forgotten realms clone. krynn is supposed to be different. that's the whole point in having different campaign settings is that there will be things about them which are different. imagine that.
i'll be the first person to step up and say that i don't particularly like tinker gnomes, and i don't particularly like kender. but i know lots of people who do. (i do, however, like the fact that you can spit and *not* hit half a dozen epic level characters in dragonlance... that's kinda the nice thing about it not being the forgotten realms). for whatever reason, dragonlance the way it is *works* and is popular enough to have not gone out of print.
and not only has dragonlance been financially successful as a RPG campaign setting, it has been successful in the fiction department also. if it was really that bad what margaret weiss and tracy hickman have been doing with the setting, then why is it that they're just about the only setting in this section of the boards that isn't a dead setting? because i would have to say that if a bunch of people are playing it, and liking it, then obviously they're doing something right, and there's actual evidence to back that statement up, whereas you mouthing off about what needs to be 'fixed' with a setting has absolutely nothing to back it up, and in fact is faced with evidence that the setting was doing just fine as is.
And you have to admit. That story arc is about the most retarded thing a setting has ever published.
I doubt the precious "holy fluff" is going to be slaughtered though since it's already a points of light campaign. They just have alot of material to sift through. -alot- especially in the old prcs etc etc.
Device of Time Traveling and Takhisises stealing the world. Dragonlance deserved to be canceled so it could be rebuilt from the ground up. It's too childish of a setting to really stand among worlds like Eberron and Faerun. It needs the retooling desperately. (No I don't care that I spelled that name wrong, not in the slightest. Let's just call her Tiamat with boobs and be honest about it)
Well you're right about the not-so-classy mortal age changeover business, I'll give you that much.
But if I had a gold piece for every poorly thought out plot device ever contrived in any campaign, I could buy my own pocket dimension by now.
The first thing that popped into my head when I saw the book title "Elminster in hell" was that it was a Jason Vorhees rip-off.
The Elminster and Drizzt characters have already been played to death (amongst others).....
And people gripe about the heroes of the lance being overdone?
You know, I'll give Eberron some credit for trying, but if anyone thinks hardly anything in forgotten realms is in any way "original", they're only fooling themselves.
As far as being "mature", face facts, nothing, I repeat NOTHING at all about a bunch of adults pretending they're elf lords, or fantasy wizards, or knights in shining armor would EVER be considered "mature" by a good %99 majority of other rational minded people in any way, shape, or form.
Not even if you're prancing around pretending to be the captive of an undead zombie lord while your friends shoot magic missiles at the darkness in the most "mature" setting of ravenloft your DM can devise, can anyone consider themselves playing out these types of fantasies as truly "mature".
I've been playing various forms of pnp games for years now, and I still have the common sense to admit it's all rather childish.
Some people play fantasy games to escape their "mature" reality, not emulate it.
Some people avoid the "mature" settings because some people actually have different tastes in what is "good" and "bad".
I'll happily bash FR from here till kingdom come (indeed, my hatred of that setting knows no bounds), but I won't tell people that like that setting to "go play something better".
If they like it, more power to them - just don't cram it down everyone else's throats....
(which is precisely what WotC did until Eberron, coincidentally....)
Also, most of the gods in every campaign are a rip-off of RL mythological gods (some more loosely than others, admitedly...).
Why don't we just call Takhisis "Satan with a few twists" and be done with it? :P
*snippity*
i'll be the first person to step up and say that i don't particularly like tinker gnomes, and i don't particularly like kender. but i know lots of people who do.
Funny you should mention that....
Tinker gnomes and kender are one of the main reasons I do love dragonlance so much.
It's called "comic relief" ;)
People can call it childish if they want, but personally, my friends and I are tired of the "everyone and their mother is EPIC!!!11!!one" kind of setting FR seems to cater to as well.
If I wanted to go play a munchkin, I'd be playing Munchkin (god I hope my friends and I aren't the only one's who've played that card game...)
Edit: Sorry Cpt_Micha, I don't intend to sound so harsh towards you personally, but I do stand by my thoughts on the "mature" business.
How can you truly call any fictional fantasy setting, complete with elves, wizards, dragons, and gelatinous cubes of ooze "mature"?
Just because something doesn't cater to your specific tastes, doesn't mean it somehow deserves to be re-tooled solely to fit you.
Variety between campaigns is indeed a good thing.
Honestly, sarcasm aside, I think some aspects of FR need to stop taking themselves so seriously (sometimes, I think the authors need to pull the proverbial stick out, if you know what I mean...), but I wouldn't say the entire setting deserves to be scrapped and made more "childish" just to suit me.
How about I let you have your "mature" world if I can be left alone with my kender comic-relief? ;D
I liked the Chronicle characters for the most part. It's more the... yeah... Device of Time traveling and later on that makes me want to claw someone's eyes out with a rusty spoon. As for Takhisis (Did I get it right this time?) She is literally Tiamat with a differeng gender, as Paladine is Bahamut (down to being the Platinum Dragon even) But that does not irk me either. Like I said it's more... yeah.. "I stole the world.. some how from other super deities! Time travel device hehe!" that just makes me go "Yeah I hate you too DL. But I still hate you less than FR"
No, I'm not referring to the behavior of rp being "mature" but I generally like abit more horror in my fantasy. (not quite lovecraft grade, and not quite as.. emo kid as warhammer)
Kender don't bother me, nor do the gadget gnomes.. even though they bother me almost every where else (gnomes)
Also people tend to dissasociate imagination with maturity. Personally I think that's because most people lack any sort of imaginative ability what so ever. But that's another story all together.
No offense taken. I hope no one took offense to mine either.
You know, I can see where you're going with the whole "build it stronger, better, faster..." business here.
Though WotC's handling of the situation as far as letting fans in on it - and easing any transition rather than looking as though they just gave everyone the finger - makes that whole "hey... now where'd we park that planet at...?" kind of plotline look downright classy.... ;)
If dragonlance needs "revitalizing", that could very well be a good thing, I suppose... Presuming they did it right.
It was just your reasoning behind why they would do it that made me think "now wait a minute, sir!"
So, playing a bunch of idiotic kender and pretending to tromp through elvish lands and what have you looking for "treasure" consisting of various strings and wads of pocket lint is immature.
True enough (and boy how!).
But considering your defense of these other settings is a bunch of (usually) munchkins tromping off through teh uber 1337 dungeonz of dragon treasure with their mighty boots of pwnage and their +12 ogre slaying knife (of doom!!11!!1 - can't get enough exclamations in there, can I?), and your claim is that this is somehow much more "mature" - and thus "ok" for a setting.... It just somehow doesn't sit right with me.
No sir (ma'am?), that argument just doesn't hold water.
Still, all reasoning aside, WotC seriously needs to get their PR together on the issue.
They can't really complain about their properties not making them any money, or that fans are no longer interested in certain products, when in all honesty they themselves have created all the animosity that many people hold against them.
After years (and years...) of dumping money into their company, I just now even took to posting in these boards, I'm sorry to say, solely because I am so blazing mad at them at this point that I could just slap someone there - and I'm not the only one.
This company seems to almost sadistically enjoy ******* fans off at this point.
Or more like little kids torturing bugs....
I try sending e-mails, I get nothing but automated apathy (or no response at all).
I try talking to them in person at cons and the like, I only get blank stares (then they just try to ignore me, or sell me on more FR.....)
I'm beginning to doubt there is a single person left at this company that isn't completely and utterly out of touch with their fanbase.
And from what I've seen around here, the mods on these boards (more notably a shortage of their appearance) is proof enough of that.
And don't even get me started on the "hourglass mage" fiasco they've got going on now :P
If they want to "revitalize" their product, then so be it.
But do it then, for crying out loud.
So far, all I see is them slowly strangling sales and driving away long-time fans - and then griping about sales figures....
I think the fact it got canceled and SP lost the rights to publish says enough about it's "success" Fr never lost it's print nor did it get canceled.
it wasn't cancelled by the people who were publishing it, and who were still interested in publishing it. it was cancelled because some moron at WotC head office decided that somehow it was better to have no dragonlance at all rather than actually doing anything at all with it.
see, now, failure would go something along the lines of sovereign press saying 'hey, we can't make money off of this, so we're choosing not to renew the license'. instead what happened is WotC said 'hey, we couldn't help but notice you're actually making money off of the intellectual property we were dumb enough to stop producing and then licensed to you, so now we're going to be a bunch of petty whining children and not let you play with our toys anymore'. which, to me at least, is totally different. WotC being a dog-in-the-manger doesn't mean that the setting was failing.
and i will also agree that WotC really badly needs to get their PR team together and smack some sense into them. the way they've been handling their 'other settings' is just flat out idiotic. it's all very well to push 4th edition and all, but when you're planning on reviving a setting, it's usually not that great of an idea to make all the people who like that setting mad at you...
and i will also agree that WotC really badly needs to get their PR team together and smack some sense into them. the way they've been handling their 'other settings' is just flat out idiotic. it's all very well to push 4th edition and all, but when you're planning on reviving a setting, it's usually not that great of an idea to make all the people who like that setting mad at you...
You're losing sight of what's important here. The most important thing is for the boards to look busy, so that 4E looks like a robust and popular game. The goal of creating a community that is inviting and inclusive for fans of settings that are not currently published - but are likely to be in the future, as 4E cycles through its one-setting-per-year publishing plan - is so unimportant that it doesn't merit any consideration at all. Better to drive all those long-time fans away than create a section of the boards that would encourage them to post here.
Heh...
You know, I can see where you're going with the whole "build it stronger, better, faster..." business here.
Though WotC's handling of the situation as far as letting fans in on it - and easing any transition rather than looking as though they just gave everyone the finger - makes that whole "hey... now where'd we park that planet at...?" kind of plotline look downright classy.... ;)
If dragonlance needs "revitalizing", that could very well be a good thing, I suppose... Presuming they did it right.
It was just your reasoning behind why they would do it that made me think "now wait a minute, sir!"
So, playing a bunch of idiotic kender and pretending to tromp through elvish lands and what have you looking for "treasure" consisting of various strings and wads of pocket lint is immature.
True enough (and boy how!).
But considering your defense of these other settings is a bunch of (usually) munchkins tromping off through teh uber 1337 dungeonz of dragon treasure with their mighty boots of pwnage and their +12 ogre slaying knife (of doom!!11!!1 - can't get enough exclamations in there, can I?), and your claim is that this is somehow much more "mature" - and thus "ok" for a setting.... It just somehow doesn't sit right with me.
No sir (ma'am?), that argument just doesn't hold water.
Still, all reasoning aside, WotC seriously needs to get their PR together on the issue.
They can't really complain about their properties not making them any money, or that fans are no longer interested in certain products, when in all honesty they themselves have created all the animosity that many people hold against them.
After years (and years...) of dumping money into their company, I just now even took to posting in these boards, I'm sorry to say, solely because I am so blazing mad at them at this point that I could just slap someone there - and I'm not the only one.
This company seems to almost sadistically enjoy ******* fans off at this point.
Or more like little kids torturing bugs....
I try sending e-mails, I get nothing but automated apathy (or no response at all).
I try talking to them in person at cons and the like, I only get blank stares (then they just try to ignore me, or sell me on more FR.....)
I'm beginning to doubt there is a single person left at this company that isn't completely and utterly out of touch with their fanbase.
And from what I've seen around here, the mods on these boards (more notably a shortage of their appearance) is proof enough of that.
And don't even get me started on the "hourglass mage" fiasco they've got going on now :P
If they want to "revitalize" their product, then so be it.
But do it then, for crying out loud.
So far, all I see is them slowly strangling sales and driving away long-time fans - and then griping about sales figures....
I never said they didn't handle the process wrong (personally I think them discussing that they have something for DL, Eberron etc ahead of time would generate more -positive- buzz.... wait.. .forgot internet..) Remember I hate FR far worse than I hate DL. DL actually has story lines and arcs that I actually -like- in it. Where as yeah... Good (supposedly in control of all magic too) Magic deity stupid enough to not simply undo evil casters anywhere by requiring you to be good to cast magic.. Yeah.. Death to Mystra. *dances on her grave* Don't get me started the "Npcs everywhere that can handle any -real- problems in Faerun" or the "Can't play here cause x is here and doing this and it would interfere with canon" crap that frequently popped up.
Like I said I'm more of a throw in darker elements, horror elements keep the power level low and go from there kinda guy for the most part.*
Hour Glass mage? Don't tell me they gave someone else Raistlin's eyes? *Gets the flame thrower ready* And you wonder why I'm glad no more material is being published at the moment. I got out post Summerflame... more on accident.. then I bought the Campaign Setting for 3e (pretty good) then.. Age of Mortals.. (gag) I'm glad I stayed away from DL. Maybe they'll retcon... I mean re imagine.. certain events... like level 2 people killing gods with -broken- magical items.... and various other doses of stupidity.
*= I do have a setting that I based on Final Fantasy 12, and Eberron. Technomagic is just cool. So are fantasy mechas. Still have horror in the setting though.
MWP/SP had considerable success with our Dragonlance product. Our freelancers, designers, artists, editors, and managers were all fans of the setting, heavily invested in making the books look as good as they could, and were rewarded with a favorable response from the DL fanbase. We were responsible for the most Dragonlance supplements and adventures in almost 20 years, consistently keeping up to date with WotC's developments in the novels and core D&D game products, and committed to serving the fan community.
Decisions made by the powers that be regarding the future of the game setting, the novels, and everything else have nothing to do with our performance as line developers and stewards of DL fandom, nor do they have anything to do with secret conspiracies, bad sales, poor plot lines, or anything else. It's simply a matter of brand management, regrouping, and other internal matters that only Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast are privy to. They're doing this across the board, not just with Dragonlance but with all of their properties. While I would dearly love to write more Dragonlance novels and design more Dragonlance game material (for 4e, now that it's out) that's entirely in the hands of the people who own the IP.
Cheers,
Cam
4e Dragonlance would be fairly easy to homebrew. Make Dragonborn evil, no clerics, maybe no paladins, halflings to Kender, etc. Not that hard (of course I'm sure to offend as I'm just a huge fan of the original books and not a hardcore DL geek...)
We actually are homebrewing DL. My GF was running a 3.5 DL game and we decided we would like to shift to 4E. The party was as follows:
Kender Rogue
Human Mystic
Elven, Qualinesti Rogue/Beguiler
Human Dragon Shaman
Human Fighter/Cleric/Knight of the Crown (Next level would give him Knight of the Sword)
Yeah...The complicated one was me...The conversation went "There are no Paladins in Krynn" "Fine, I'll be a Knight of Solomnia, then"...If only I read the campaign book before I said that. Anyway...New party is as follows, respectively:
Halfling Rogue (We are calling him a Kender, but using the Halfling rules)
Human Cleric (It fits really well with his Brute Mystic idea)
Eladrin Warlock
Dragonborn Shaman (The GM is ruling that he is going to slowly take on the appearance of a dragon)
Human Warlord (Which we are calling a Knight of the Crown. Knight Paragon Path is going to be Knight of the Sword, and Demi-god Epic Destiny is going to be Knight of the Rose)
We have had to rework some of the encounters in the module she is running because a lot of the monsters either do not exist in 4E, or are not level appropriate when you switch the setting. With my help she is doing very well, however. We have even created our first Artifact in the "Shard of Light" and am creating another one for the "Dragonlance".
On a side note...My Oriental Campaign is being a little #$@!% in conversion...I'm having to make up, from scratch, six different Heroic classes, a couple dozen Paragon Paths, a half dozen Epic Destinies, several races, equipment, rituals, monsters, GAH!!!
Margaret Weis Productions (formerly Sovereign Press) no longer has the Dragonlance license because WotC brought all of its intellectual property back in-house immediately prior to the launch of 4th edition. It is protecting its brands and most likely isn't completely sure what it's going to do with all of them, but it didn't involve us, and that's just how it shook out.
MWP/SP had considerable success with our Dragonlance product. Our freelancers, designers, artists, editors, and managers were all fans of the setting, heavily invested in making the books look as good as they could, and were rewarded with a favorable response from the DL fanbase. We were responsible for the most Dragonlance supplements and adventures in almost 20 years, consistently keeping up to date with WotC's developments in the novels and core D&D game products, and committed to serving the fan community.
Decisions made by the powers that be regarding the future of the game setting, the novels, and everything else have nothing to do with our performance as line developers and stewards of DL fandom, nor do they have anything to do with secret conspiracies, bad sales, poor plot lines, or anything else. It's simply a matter of brand management, regrouping, and other internal matters that only Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast are privy to. They're doing this across the board, not just with Dragonlance but with all of their properties. While I would dearly love to write more Dragonlance novels and design more Dragonlance game material (for 4e, now that it's out) that's entirely in the hands of the people who own the IP.
Cheers,
Cam
Let's hope that when they finally decided which direction DL should be going (regarding 4e and all), they'll look you guys up first.