For example:
White Robes - Defender
Red Robes - Leader
Black robes - Striker
What do you think?
The orders are for mages, not all magic-users per say, but specifically for squishy men in robes who love magical books and stand behind meat walls to do their magics in battle.
Wizards of White Order are Abjurers and Diviners, mages who use their powers to enhance and protect. By the book wizards and warlocks can do this, by focusing on versatility and powers that allow them to pick off foes with as little collateral damage as possible.
They could be their own class, an arcane leader who leads the same way the Shielding Cleric from DP does. But this is only because there is not yet an arcane leader who is a real "mage" the same was sorcerers, wizards and warlocks are.
Reds are your typical wizard. Raistlin was a red for the majority of his career. And he was a standard wizard. They are by the book wizards and warlocks. Though a string of feats and an associated paragon path wouldn't be out of place.
Black Wizards are just like red wizards, but they focus on destruction more. As such they focus on blasting. Again a string of feats to represent their specialized training and an associated paragon path would be the best way to go about it.
Now about Roles
The real problem here is that you think Defender can be a clothy mage. The arcane Defender/Sword Mage is the only real possible AD possible, and there would be no reason fluff-wise to say all White Wizards are sword mages, nor would there be any benefit in building a new class just to emulate the sword mage. Defenders are first and foremost meleeists, using their special skills to lock down specific foes and soak damage. Never once in all of the DL fluff has there been a White Wizard who focused on melee combat.
The Wizards of high Sorcery do not have to be just 1 class, in fact they could be 3 different classes that use the Arcane power source, but with different rolls.
For example:
White Robes - Defender
Red Robes - Leader
Black robes - Striker
What do you think?
I sir dont like it, its as bad as saying that the knights of solmanlia PP would be based off specific classes.
no, there are no FEY in Dragonlance, so there would be devils and have warlock so DArk warlocks would be there, dragon and wild sorcerers may be pressent, anway.... moving on.
Dragonlance, being connected to a simulacrum of the great wheel has Fey, as in the past most fey lived in the mortal world or the outer plane Arboria. While they were never a issue in the DL books, the fact that their home existed means one cannot exclude the possibility of their existence. So in adapting the 4e cosmology Arborea gets replaced wit Feywild, a far off distant realm of the gods that few mortals heard of and even less been to.
Feypact Warlocks, like Darkpact and Hellpact are great alternatives to gaining magical power in the time when the moon gods were gone. Seeing as the stars themselves are seen as the homes of the gods and that the moons are gods, Starpact 'locks are a great retcon to have "always been there". People who looked upon the stars that were the realms of the gods and thought "what's that star over there?"
Think about the definition of each role when you think of the WoHS. In the end, a wizard of one order can function much like the wizard of another order.
Secondary roles can add a bit more definition, but I think that's more in regards to the individual character, not the robes as a whole. A Red Robe could easily have the secondary role of leader or striker, for example.
Secondary roles can also apply towards paragon paths. So a renegade hunter could have a secondary role of striker. A moon disciple could be a leader. And so on and so forth. Paragon paths are an excellent way to provide better definition towards the orders, so look for that as well.
Whites=secondary leaders
Reds=pure controllers(or even better, a bit of both leader and striker)
Blacks=secondary strikers
I'd be fine with two new classes that are just wizards remolded a bit to be strikers and leaders, respectively, but I don't think that's likely. In no sane world should a mage be a defender. I don't think it's likely to happen officially, but I'd use it if it did.
It's basically just giving the sorc the spell book thing, and then doing the same with wand bards(and changing proficiencies). There's a bit more to it, sure, but not much.
Either way, I think the most likely representation we'll see will be new builds for the wizard class, and/or paragon paths.
Another way to use secondary roles is through mutliclassing and the use of hybrid classes. So if you want your WoHS to be more of a striker, multiclass with sorcerer or warlock, ignore the fluff, and say they're all wizard spells.
That definitely works. Also, I really can't wait to see more of the whole hybrid mechanic.
And there's no reason that sorc spells can't easily be thought of as wizard spells, really.
I'm a little bummed that the 2010 campaign setting is Dark Sun, rather than Dragonlance, but I'll live. Just gives me more time to hone my 4e knowledge before playing around in an official dragonlance again. :P
Given the general nature of 4e, I think I might take a different path, and that would be to use the sorcerer or the warlock as the rough template.
What I mean is that the class would still be "wizard", but there would be powers that would be tagged "Wizard of the White Robes," etc. While any wizard of the appropriate level could use these (and I wouldn't have them be useable until after 3rd or 5th levelk, whichever is appropriate for the Test), they will only provide the bonus to the wizard who chooses that path (in the same way that while every Warlock can use powers that are marked "Star Pact", only those with the star pact feature get the bonus.)
I think for most of the heroic levels this would work fine - white robe powers would be more likely to have abjuration type powers while black robes more like to have necromantic/necrotic oriented ones.
I would further differentiate them at the PP level.
Hmmm. Now I'm intrigued enough to actually start designing this.
(Though, I would have greatly preferred had WotC done this themselves, or left MWP to do it.)
Mark
...there would be powers that would be tagged "Wizard of the White Robes," etc. While any wizard of the appropriate level could use these (and I wouldn't have them be useable until after 3rd or 5th levelk, whichever is appropriate for the Test), they will only provide the bonus to the wizard who chooses that path (in the same way that while every Warlock can use powers that are marked "Star Pact", only those with the star pact feature get the bonus.
I don't agree with using Sorcerer or Warlock as a base class for the WoHS, but I do like this idea. Each Order could then have its own "build". So, instead of War Wizard or Illusionist Wizard, you would have Wizard of the Black Robes or Wizard of the Red Robes.
To be clear, I wouldn't use warlock or sorcerer as the base - just the way that powers in those classes behave differently depending on the choices members of those classes make. I would use wizard as the base - I'd just borrow the mechanics of the "pact" options, etc. In all other respects, the character is a wizard.
So, in my mind, while pretty much every spell would be available to mages of all orders, once you take the test and choose a path, powers tied to that path are better for you than the other two.
As I see it, White Robes would be better at things like defensive or abjurations types; red robes wold be better at diviniation types; and black robes would be better at necromantic. In fact, to make it slightly different, rather than one robe being BETTER at those types of spells, you might say that the other classes are WORSE (that is, if they take the powers, they incur penalties.) So, if a white robe took a "necromantic" type spell, they would be penalized (negative to attack and/or damage, etc.) They could take the spells, but are discouraged (unlike previous editions where they were prohibited.)
You could either design wholesale new powers (which I think should be the case) or go back and tag existing powers with "Wizard of the White Robes," etc. Or some combination. Clearly, there should be some powers common to all three orders - those shouldn't give preference to one order or another.
I second the notion of making them paragon paths; in the Dragonlance world, it often felt like only real, truly capable wizards put on the Robes. In game terms, I think you had to join the Order to get past 5th level; back then, 5th was the point at which you could get fireball, and were considered a legitimate threat to everything around you. In 4E terms, it makes sense to push the admission deadline back to 11th level. This would preserve the notion that all three Orders had the same base class structure, which they clearly do and ought to retain into 4E. Additionally, it'd allow for the extra 'flavor' you're looking for without the need for additional classes.
If you want flavor earlier on, perhaps make a few Apprentice feats as a requirement for the PP, which can be taken anytime from 1st level onward and grants a +1 damage bonus to a specific at-will and a +2 bonus to a related skill... Ray of Frost/Intimidate for black robes, Burning Hands/Arcana for red robes, Illusory Ambush/Diplomacy for white robes?
I second the notion of making them paragon paths; in the Dragonlance world, it often felt like only real, truly capable wizards put on the Robes. In game terms, I think you had to join the Order to get past 5th level; back then, 5th was the point at which you could get fireball, and were considered a legitimate threat to everything around you. In 4E terms, it makes sense to push the admission deadline back to 11th level. This would preserve the notion that all three Orders had the same base class structure, which they clearly do and ought to retain into 4E. Additionally, it'd allow for the extra 'flavor' you're looking for without the need for additional classes.
If you want flavor earlier on, perhaps make a few Apprentice feats as a requirement for the PP, which can be taken anytime from 1st level onward and grants a +1 damage bonus to a specific at-will and a +2 bonus to a related skill... Ray of Frost/Intimidate for black robes, Burning Hands/Arcana for red robes, Illusory Ambush/Diplomacy for white robes?
Actually, in the earlier editions of DnD, you could get past 5th level without taking the test - but if you did advance without taking it, you were marked as a renegade.
While making the classes as paragon paths seems the "cleanest" way to do it, I have to say that waiting 10 levels seems an awfully long time.
If you want to have the campaign happen during "the present", then Paragon paths would be the way to go with certain requirements, such as one at-will, one encounter, and one daily attack spell from the heroic tier that represents the "path" they should take. This would apply to all arcane classes. Renegades would be ones that don't choose any of those PPs. In the new cosmology, renegades could be more tolerated than in the previous cosmology.
Don't forget that in either case another requirement is alignment. Whites are good or lawful good, Reds are unaligned, and Blacks are evil or chaotic evil.
The Wizards of high Sorcery do not have to be just 1 class, in fact they could be 3 different classes that use the Arcane power source, but with different rolls. For example: White Robes - Defender Red Robes - Leader Black robes - Striker What do you think?
Hmm... I haven't really gotten a great feel for 4e yet, but making a class just for the orders does not seem a great idea, given both paragon paths as well as multiclass feats combined with a fake class (like the spell plague does). My only issue is should this be only for wizards (or say sorcerors who multiclass into wizard) or not, because what is means to be a wizard has recently gone through a shocking change with 4e.
Personally, I would see the WoHS, as well as the other orders, as eithe paragon paths or multi-classing with 'fake' classes. Of course, with the teired orders (Knights of Solmania, where one must be a Knight of the Crown before they can go to the next level, but where you may choose not to go to the next level), this doesn't work. Possibly, a paragon path where you would start as a Knight of the Crown, and when you get half way or so, you are given the choice (assuming you have fufilled the RP requirements), to either continue as a Knight of the Crown, or advance in rank, and the powers granted with be different depending.