I am writing this because I think the Rulebook falls very short and right now the forum/wiki/community just isn’t distilling things easily for people. (This is definitely stuff for a wiki of sorts).
To WoTC, you can improve the status quo! It will help ensure that new purchasers, that purchase out of curiosity, get hooked and stick with you on this new and novel endeavor. The fans probably love solving the puzzles of unclear things... I’d even dare say the Rulebook needs a 2.0 printing. You could start with updating the official "FAQ" page...
The following is roughly organized, but it is only trying to be a direct, clear and concise gathering of things you need to know that the rulebook didn't emphasize well, or omitted. Furthermore, this is stuff you read after reading the rulebook, not instead of!
I would be delighted to edit this post in order to correct it, improve it, etc. So if you have any comment, please do offer it up! I am missing a fair amount of "where this comes from" which I'll try and add in soon.
Movement, and Squares
- A legal square is a square that isn't more than 50% covered (black, or otherwise out of the play area lacking grid lines)
- All movement, special or normal, must end in a legal square; for example, phasing and burrowing cannot end in a wall square even if it went through them.
- Any effect that asks you to move N squares really means “move up to N squares”.
- Standard and Minor cards may only be played on your turn, during a creature’s activation, and only for or against that active creature
Change this to "and only by the active creature" as any order has to be activated by an active creature, but can target any creature or square on the board if the order says to. (Following all standard requirements, e.g. Line of Sight, etc.)
- Ranged to an adjacent enemy is not allowed
Change this to: "Ranged when adjacent to an enemy is not allowed." Even if you wish to target a different creature to the one that the attacker is adjacent to it is not allowed unless you move out of melee first.
Also with regards to walls: it is considered that if a wall covers more than 75% of a square, then you cannot move diagonally across it. Currently there are no squares that cover more than 75% of a square without covering the entire square, but it may crop up in future.
With Burrowing and Phasing, yes they ignore walls, but do note that they cannot end their movement inside a wall, even if you are going to use a movement order to move further. When you stop one movement it must be in a valid square. Also note that Burrowing and Flying ignore terrain effects (Difficult, Damaging, etc.) but Phasing doesn't (for some reason).
One thing I need to follow up on - this "75%" mention. The rulebook says:
A legal square cannot be more than half covered by a wall.
That would mean that 51% or more wall cover, and it's basically a wall square.
Where is the 75% number coming from? I've seen it a fair bunch...
To me a legal square (or allowing you to end a turn on and move diagonally passed) is anything upto and including 50% covered.
Greater than 50% covered, but under 100% covered, is not legal to stop on but can be moved diagonally passed. So if there is the slightest slithter of non-wall terrain (or wilderness equivalent) at a corner it can be moved diagonally passed.
Measuring 75% covered would be a nightmare without some sort of template and would cause argument.
That is unless I've missed some sort of official clarification!
I don't believe the rules support any distinction between squares based on the art. Either a square is wall, or isn't, and the rulebook says "more than half" means it's a wall. I don't see any official support for distinguishing between wall squares based on art at all, either in the rulebook or on the forums. Am I missing something? If I'm not missing a clarification, I don't believe it's legal to cut corners on any wall square, regardless of art.
Please state the page of the rulebook you are quoting from ... I cannot find any sentences that define a wall space in such a way. The rules for the other terrain types (difficult, etc) are clear, if it contains the symbol, the whole square has the designation.
The art work is very important! Only the parts of a square covered by the wall art work (or slope on wilderness maps) are considered wall terrain. The rest is considered open for purposes of LOS, movement, stopping movement on (if 50% or more open). That is unless it is a square contains another terrain type.
The rulebook has a number of examples of squares covered with more than 50% wall, yet the rest is open (see diagrams on pages 11 and 13 of the rulebook). In fact, the two diagrams on page 13 show diagonal movement across a square that contains greater than 50% wall ... The top diagram shows the copper dragon, moving from 2to 3, cutting across a corner of a square that looks to be almost 100% slope/wall.
Ok, I actually found the distinction, it is in the rulebook, and is pretty easy, though definitely could be clearer. (BTW in general: a bunch of stuff in the OP is in the rulebook, but is easy to miss, so I think this thread is more like an FAQ than always being things the rulebook didn't say. But in any case.) I didn't have the rulebook on me at the time, but now I've dug through it for references to walls and moving. Note that I'm using a Blood of Gruumsh rulebook which seems to have different page numbering than whichever one Bugging_Bear used above me; the diagrams he's talking about are on page 11 of my rulebook, not page 13. In any case, here's the movement smoking gun, found in the "Moving" section on page 9 of my rulebook:
"However, a creature cannot move diagonally around the corner of a dungeon wall."
I initially read that (as, apparently, did a lot of other people) as meaning a wall at all, but noticing the key word and combined with the diagrams Bugging_Bear pointed out, it seems pretty clear that what they in fact mean is "walls on the underground side of the tile." So, my ruling would be that you can cut any corner if you're aboveground, but none if you're underground. This seems like a weird rule to me, but at least is consistent and doesn't require eyeballing those partial corners. Hopefully this closes the book on this one and I'm not missing anything.
Here's the other stuff about walls, for reference. First from the callout on page 5:
"Indoor walls are marked with solid black squares or a thick black line between squares. Outdoor walls are represented by stone slopes with a mesa on top that is unreachable. Creatures cannot enter or move through walls, they cannot draw line of sight through walls."
Moving on to the section on moving, we get the citation for the 50% standard. The section starts at the bottom of p. 9 but the relevant stuff is on the top of 10:
"Each square a creature moves into must be a legal square. A legal square cannot be more than half covered by a wall."
So this is specifically just covering what makes a wall legal or not legal as a place to move to.
The "Terrain and Movement" section later on page 10 covers walls, but basically repeats what was on page 5.
Basically it looks like walls, or at least aboveground walls, are sadly a special snowflake here; whereas every other terrain type is binary per square and the art is basically flavor text, the way the rulebook talks about walls heavily implies that you need to look at the actual picture of the wall to figure out LOS for aboveground walls. Ugly. Oh well. It'd be nice to get a clarification on that one since it isn't as explicit, but sadly those seem to have petered off
so for now in a tournament I'd rule:-Aboveground wall corners can be cut (regardless of art)
-Dungeon wall corners cannot be cut (regardless of art)
-LOS treats walls as present where the physical art is, ignoring square boundaries
Any objections?
-Dungeon wall corners cannot be cut (regardless of art)
-LOS treats walls as present where the physical art is, ignoring square boundaries
Any objections?
That's how we've been playing it.
But I do have a problem with the generalisations in the above ruling.
Starters for 10 ... Which dungeon tile contains TWO wall corners that CAN be cut, just like corners on wilderness tiles?
Clue, if you've read the rulebook, you've seen it!!!
PS I am not being pedantic or argumentative with this post. I just want good, clear clarifications for this great game. I'm from a DDM background, you will sympathise.
I have no problems with the rules as per the book. I would never allow a move that cut the corner of a square completely filled with wall terrain. But I do have a problem with the generalisations in the above ruling. Starters for 10 ... Which dungeon tile contains TWO wall corners that CAN be cut, just like corners on wilderness tiles? Clue, if you've read the rulebook, you've seen it!!! PS I am not being pedantic or argumentative with this post. I just want good, clear clarifications for this great game. I'm from a DDM background, you will sympathise.
Ok, I get that, but I want to sort out what the rules in the book actually are. It looks to me that if there are, in fact, dungeon corners you can cut (or aboveground corners you can't) per diagrams, then the rules as written in the rulebook contradict the diagrams, in which case we need some kind of clarification, or alternately I'm missing some clarifying text. If we can't generalize, then I don't know quite what to say - I certainly couldn't find a guideline in the rulebook about what corners to cut except the one I quote: "corners of dungeon walls". If the rulebook wanted us to eyeball corners, I think it would say that.
I get that you're not trying to be argumentative, but I've read the rulebook a lot of times, including most recently re-reading the whole thing when you (reasonably) requested I cite my rules. Please give me the same courtesy and just say which diagram/statement you're talking about, rather than giving me a "clue".
Looking at the tiles now: there are no Dungeon wall corners that can be moved across. However there are some squares that contain walls, whose corners can be cut. Note the difference being cutting the corner of a square with a wall in or of a wall that fills a square (or fills the border between two squares: see Drow 3). For example: see Drow 1: this tile has sloped walls creating a funnel. Some squares have the middle of the square covered by wall, with a little corner of the square being ground. These are not legal squares to stop in, but they can be crossed, while walking along the wall for example, as the wall does not obstruct movement along itself. If however, you are thinking of a different tile bugging_bear, then please say which tile.
In the outside it is stated that it is possible to move across corners mostly due to the diagrams on page 11 of the rulebook.
Dungeon-side tiles are where the rule that special cases diagonal movement apply to. I am pretty positive now that the intent was never to extend the no-diagonal rule anywhere else! The rulebook indeed using exactly "the corner of dungeon wall" language, AND the fact that outdoor corners you could go diagonally across are always without a doubt not 100% covered, says it all.
Finally, to nail it all, the picture on p11 shows it - the copper dragon is moving diagonally across from step 2 to step 3!
QED, I say, as some here were also concluding.
Under the blanket ruling that has been given, these two corners cannot be cut; yet they are no different to walls found on the wilderness tiles. This could create problems explaining/justifying movement around corners on the two types of tile.
I think I'll state again that I never would allow 'cutting' across wall corners as shown in diagrams in the rulebook (ie across the corner of a square that is completely filled with wall terrain). Also, my first post to this thread was a concern over ideas that squares filled with greater than 75% wall terrain (or greater than 50% wall terrain) being classed as wall squares; which as I stated are unsupported by the rulebook.
[5minutes later].
Though, after re-reading page 9 of the rulebook, I will cede that the text refers the dungeon wall corners and therefore will accept the ruling! No dungeon tile corners can be 'cut' ... whatever the angle.
"You draw an order card at the start of each of your turns. If your deck of order cards runs out, don't reshufflethe discard pile. You can play only whatever cards remain in your hand."
At the moment there are no ways to affect the cards in your (or your opponent's) graveyard. So once a card is in the graveyard it is effectively out of the game. If you do run out of orders you just keep playing until one side or the other wins, with your opponent having a significant advantage over you (well, once you run completely out of orders that is.)
Bugging_Bear: I am still not 100% sure what you are on about, on Drow 1, if you place it with the wall (flat) edge at the bottom, are you talking about, for example, moving from the square of difficult terrain at the top of the funnel diagonally up and left (from square d3 to c2 counting a1 as top left)? If so, that is a legal move as you do not cut across a corner as such. If that move was ilegal, then moving from b1 to c2 would be ilegal as the same amount of terrain is showing on that side of the wall.
The 75% was a rough guidline, as roughly a quater of the square is ground, it is legal to move across the "corner", but not stop on.
The 75% was a rough guidline, as roughly a quater of the square is ground, it is legal to move across the "corner", but not stop on.
This is the issue in question, though. I haven't been able to find any rulebook support for that standard. Why do you think that's a legal move?
It is possible that to avoid arguments from players looking to gain any advantage they could that we houseruled it. But it also does seem to fit, especially when you look at all the corners on the outside map: roughly 1/4 of the square is ground and the rulebook shows creatures crossing those corners.
In summary: it may or may not be a houserule, but the board and manual graphics support the theory.
what happens if you run out of a order deck? i cant seem to find anything to give me a answer regarding this. also is there a way to shuffle your order discard pile back into your order deck?
You continue to play without reshuffling your deck. Whenever you are asked to draw an order card, skip that instruction/step. (Rulebook p11, first paragraph under "Playing Order Cards").
Moving from the green circle to the red target (or the reverse) is around the corner of a wall. At first, I argued it is a case against the stated gerenal ruling ... No cutting across dungeon corners. But then, re-read page 9 of the rulebook where it is clear that you cannot do this.
Out of interest Bugging_Bear: would you allow the reverse move? From the red targetted square to the square with the model in (assuming of course that the model wasn't actually there)? The reason I ask is that you do not cross any corners that way: you just walk along the wall.
Personally both I and everyone I play with has never even considered the move in question to be ilegal, but again it's an ambiguous one that needs an official ruling, so just agree with your opponent before playing if either of you are using that tile.
Bugging_Bear is correct that the rulebook does not make a distinction. However that does not solve the problem. Given D&D's history, that move is legal, sticking to the exact wording of the DC manual it is not. However the particular instance that we are on about it not discussed in the manual, so it is another question that needs an official answer.
Out of interest Bugging_Bear: would you allow the reverse move? From the red targetted square to the square with the model in (assuming of course that the model wasn't actually there)? The reason I ask is that you do not cross any corners that way: you just walk along the wall.
Personally both I and everyone I play with has never even considered the move in question to be ilegal, but again it's an ambiguous one that needs an official ruling, so just agree with your opponent before playing if either of you are using that tile.
This is a D&D side-game, it isn't D&D. I agree a FAQ update would be very nice, but I don't think this one is ambiguous, just weird.
I agree a FAQ update would be very nice
I couldn't agree more. What would be even nicer is to have a new and updated downloadable rulebook that addresses questions like this one and others that have led to a lot of discussion on these boards (LoS etc.) And a updated printed rulebook with new faction boxes (if any).
I agree a FAQ update would be very nice
I couldn't agree more. What would be even nicer is to have a new and updated downloadable rulebook that addresses questions like this one and others that have led to a lot of discussion on these boards (LoS etc.) And a updated printed rulebook with new faction boxes (if any).
+1
i have a question.
If my minis attack then after solving attack i play heroic surge, minor cost 1, can i do another attack?
Hi Guys,
i have a question.
If my minis attack then after solving attack i play heroic surge, minor cost 1, can i do another attack?
Yes
Hi Guys,
i have a question.
If my minis attack then after solving attack i play heroic surge, minor cost 1, can i do another attack?
Yes
Yes, Heroic Surge is an excellent card in the right deck. It can turn your Dragon Knight into a pseudo-BugBearBerserker.
Here is the movement I was referring to in posts 12 and 16:
Moving from the green circle to the red target (or the reverse) is around the corner of a wall. At first, I argued it is a case against the stated gerenal ruling ... No cutting across dungeon corners. But then, re-read page 9 of the rulebook where it is clear that you cannot do this.
Yes it`s illegal square to move. Quote from the rules: "Each square a creature moves into must be a legal square. A legal square cannot be more than half covered by a wall." page 9-10 "Moving". SoL set.
Sorry if my post is late))
My opponent decided to use a card like this to escape but I told her that she must take the second action and only her allied owlbear was beside her creature so her ogre attacked the owlbear.
I have a question. If a player decides to do a standard action using an order card and let's say these are the actions: Shift 6 squares, Make a mele attack. Can the player decide to not make a melee attack? What if he shifts 6 squares but there aren't any monsters adjacent to the creature? What if there are only allied creatures right beside him? If he doesn't take the second action, can the player even play the order card?
My opponent decided to use a card like this to escape but I told her that she must take the second action and only her allied owlbear was beside her creature so her ogre attacked the owlbear.
You always do as much of a card as you can. You shift, check for the attack target, then shift again.
When you stop a creature's move that creature cannot move again without an order card and when you move onto a second creature you are declaring the first creature's activation to be over so you cannot return to them later.
One exception to the latter is assisting: if you leave the first creature untapped, then move the second creature adjacent, then you may tap the first creature to assist the second.
Okay, so can line of sight go through the line between two enemy creatures that are adjacent to each other? Can line of sight go through the edges of obstacles? If a creature is against a wall at a corner, would it have line of sight to a ceature that is against the same wall on another corner (the creature cannot see all 4 corners of the enemy)?
No.
No.
And no.