Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DarthMacho May 10, 2015 12:20:02	I'm looking for advice on something that's bugging me about the pantheon of gods I created for my 5e world, and I'm hoping the D&D community can help.   My pantheon consists of two Greater Gods. Pelor and Zehir, each of which controls four divine domains (Pelor = Light, Life, Knowledge, Nature and Zehir = Death, War, Tempest, Trickery). There are Lesser Gods, Demigods, and Other Powers that are granted power over one or two domains, but only through the will of the greater two.   Without going into too much more detail, here is my fundamental problem: In this design, Pelor is male and Zehir is female. Since these are going to be the only Greater Gods, I'm afraid I'm enforcing the oldest religious trope in the world that women are fundamentally evil. So, how do I fix this? I'm hoping to get some good advice without starting a gender war here on the boards.   Should I: 1. Switch genders of Pelor and Zehir, reversing the gender roles to the opposite? 2. Give each of them an equal of the opposite gender and have four Greater Gods, one good male and female, and one evil male and female? 3. Make both the Greater Gods genderless? 4. Give the Greater Gods aspects that are male and female, but are one? 5. Make all of these questions dependent on the worshippers that revere them, sometimes male, sometimes female? 6. Stop worrying about it and stick to the original plan? 7. Something else?   Please tell me what you feel the best solution is in your opinion? I'd love to hear from both genders if possible. Thanks in advance!
#2 Kentus May 10, 2015 12:48:58	In the end, you know your game table best. For my game tables, there is hardly any sexism. If you think, that some of your players would feeling awkward with this, I would swap their gender, since often goddesses were for birthgiving, healing, fertility and such, while many male gods (like Thor) lost their fertility aspect over time, to be more warlike (Thor started as a weather and harvest god and became a warrior thunder-god). Then you switch one old religious trope with another.   I do like the idea of swapping their gender depending on the worshippers, but in the end, it might be too complicated.   Finally, you could use the fact, that gods are gods and don't need to be logic by mortal standards. Maybe Pelor was a ruthless and evil god in a previous age, while Zehir was the good counterpart, but a rule of balance demands, that their personalities are switching over time (so they're moving in the alignment chart, always opposite to each other) and to be accurate who the people are referring to are titles stuck to their names. So Pelor, the liberator (CG) is still the same but another god than Pelor, the generous (NG) and in the next age he might be Pelor, the wise (LG). Or maybe the people don't generally know about this change and this might be something the characters find out, when they're attacking an old Zehir temple... Zehir was once worshipped as the bountiful and fought against Pelor, the cruel? How can this be?!
#3 BRJN May 10, 2015 14:54:11	"Women are Evil" is not a religious trope.  It is a slander aimed at the religious by people who are not.   Correllon Larethian, the high god of the Elves, is usually spoken of as if masculine.  But there are a number of instances where Correlon is drawn as if feminine, or androgynous (both sexes at once).  Deities and Demigods comes to mind at once.   If you have only two Greater Gods, it might be best to say that each is usually a combination of the best qualities of both male and female.  Sometimes they undertake an action that requires them to "grow a pair" - such as Correlon's Banishment of the Drow - and sometimes they undertake deeds often associated with femininity (a deity of Life includes childbirth, we've all heard of Mother Nature; Tempest can include "the Sea is a lady" and female names for hurricanes).
(Reply to #2) DarthMacho	Kentus wrote:
(Reply to #3) DarthMacho	BRJN wrote:
#6 Mechatarrasque May 10, 2015 16:05:26	I would do a combination of 3 and 5, but restrict 5 to a cultural level (elves think Pelor is female and Zehir is male and drow think Pelor is male and Zehir is female).  Honestly, even 3 is a little unnecessary unless you plan on your PC's storming the gates of heaven or hell, and even then Pelor might look like a colossal sphinx or just a big ball of light and Zehir migh look like a colossal snake or a wall of darkness.
#7 Greenstone.Walker May 10, 2015 17:00:31	DarthMacho wrote:
#8 Orethalion May 10, 2015 17:46:32	DarthMacho wrote:
#9 BRJN May 10, 2015 17:50:18	If you see an old dude with long wild hair tangled in knots and spread out like a puffball, you would think that person is male.  If the old dude combs that hair and puts it in a ponytail, you would think that person is a woman.  (Need some Dwarves' help to explain away a beard, though.)  Put this person in a long slightly-baggy robe - to obscure body shape - and you should be good to go.  Greetings, Pelor!   Zehir I always have imagined to be a snake.  Snakes (and other reptiles for that matter) have no external visible anatomy to differentiate male from female, so Zehir's artwork is easier to do.  The male Zehir features attention-drawng eyes and a large gape featuring the two fangs; the female Zehir's face is not prominent and there are a few eggs near its tail.
(Reply to #8) DarthMacho	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #9) DarthMacho	BRJN wrote:
#12 marius4 May 10, 2015 18:34:32	I'm a fan of 3, 4, and 5. It's good to be aware of tropes and stereotypes, but I'm sure you know you don't *have* to change your original idea if you don't want to. IOW, it wasn't offensive in and of itself, IMHO. If you change the plan, do it to extend your perspectives and creativity rather than to dismiss it like it was completely bad.     Having said that--and since you want to avoid that particular convention anyway--I do find all of the other ideas to be much more interesting and flexible. You could even push it further and play them as great, abstract forces with titles rather than anthropomorphic (if that's a correct usage here) names.   Good luck with your world crafting!
#13 McCringleberry May 10, 2015 21:50:41	Personally I have always been of the belief that Life and Death are so intertwined that they should be presided over by the same Diety.  They are also benign, thus are neither good nor evil.  Of your defined attributes only War and Trickery seem to be weighted toward evil, with the rest being pretty neutral.  There will always be people who read into whatever you decide, so someone might see Tempest as implying that "women be crazy", or putting War under a male diety implying that men can't avoid their baser nature.     Talk to your players.  If something rubs them wrong discuss it.
#14 durntaur May 10, 2015 22:02:46	3 and/or 4 and/or 5
#15 MechaPilot May 10, 2015 22:17:03	DarthMacho wrote:
#16 MonsterEnvy May 11, 2015 1:04:35	Any reason your going for Zehir the god of poison (Who is normally Male in lore) as one of the two greater gods of your setting.    Given that Pelor is normally a god of light,the Sun, healing and strength, I think a better opposite for him would be Tharizdun the God of Eternal darkness, decay, entropy, malign knowlege, instanity and cold.    You could give them both the Knowlege domain as well with going with this way.
(Reply to #16) DarthMacho	MonsterEnvy wrote:
(Reply to #13) DarthMacho	McCringleberry wrote:
#19 Mephi1234 May 11, 2015 13:00:00	I would go with something more like how the real world portrays sun gods.    The Greek said it was Apollo, a male god.  The Norse made the Sun female.   Egyptians?  Masculine deity.  Japanese?   Female.   And so on.   No one knows, and focuses on different parts depending on culture.
#20 Grimcleaver May 11, 2015 17:29:49	You could use Elishar and Toldoth from Deities and Demigods. Elishar is basically female Pelor and Toldoth is sort of more Orcus than Zehir, but all the Zehir stuff would still work fine and he's a masculine god so your problem disappears, plus they're already designed to exist as a dualistic religion so it's a fun bit of obscure canon to throw into your game.
#21 BRJN May 11, 2015 17:57:15	DarthMacho wrote:
#22 RagoSteel May 11, 2015 23:18:52	I myself, having been playing a campaign in which my Goddess Naluadii (a sun goddess who appears as an angel with firey wings) is the monthestic goddess to my Nas Potami race which are invading the realms, How ever to the humans of the realms she takes the form of Lathander the male old sun god who died 4th edition (who I here they are bringing back), literally they all think he came back but his spot was taken over. Over the next few years, the humans simply forgot that lathander was a male diety and Naluadii could reveal her true form.   As for the OP, one of my favorite mythologies is the Lineage two tale about the creation of humans. I love it so much I like to borrow aspects of it. But in this mythology all the races of dwarves, elves and Orcs were created by the children of a life mother and death father. But the death father was interested in the creations and want to make his own so he borrows the worse aspects of stone, wind and fire and makes man a frail pitiful creation that live a short life and dies. of course man were ashamed of thier creator and fought and foolishly destroyed the works of elves, dwarves and orcs and became the dominant race on the earth. Being in power over creatures they knew were more pure than they, the humans wove the story that unlike the frail elves, stubborn dwarves and stupid orcs they were actual the only creation of the Life mother and all the other races were pale attempts by her children to duplicate her success. of course the Death father hearing this laughed "they really are my children".  I like this story because noble races don't need to be made form noble gods, in fact the opposite might be true.   Our veiw of good and evil is often sympathetic to our own needs, and to lets say the yaun-ti Zehir is the good goddess for giving them stuff. it is easy to regulate evil beings into card board cut out for a players to run through but they too have feelings wishes and desires. If you want them to actually live (to be worthy foes) then you must be able to make sense of the world through thier eyes. Think again of the Yuan-ti who have to live in world in which they are hated and forced into the shadows of the forest for safety while humans get to live in big houses and eat lots of food....you'd likely hate them too.   One of my favorite campaigns (called the collector's world) was a land where lost races were saved from the doom of thier worlds. But most the races when they arrived would find thier community. The elves of this setting were like racist imperial romans and treated humans as slaves or worse, simply because most the elves lost thier last world to humans. The Humans (who culture was mostly celtic) were constantly raided and routed by the supirior elves. What is funny is that everyone at that table began to really hate elves and sympathized with orcs which were also a hunted race (which there were three types of orcs, samurai, stone age, and viking). So I learned that the names of the races didn't matter, but thier actions did.   Hope this helps you in building great worlds for your players, nothing is better than a memorable experiance...no matter the cliches, troupes or sterotypes.
#23 durntaur May 12, 2015 9:13:44	BRJN wrote:
#24 Krusk May 12, 2015 14:59:59	I'd go with genderless, and both Male and Female at the same time.    Some of the stories and art depcit them as male or female, and some depict them as neither and both. It varries from retelling to retelling. Maybe do something where the gendered pronoun for them is male in dwarven and female in elven, but when spoken in draconic its something thats effectively gender neutral.    Dwarven stories tell of his great deeds. Elven stories tell of her awesome power. Draconic stories tell of its immense knowledge.    I did that with a diety a while back, and it was a neat tidbit of worldbuilding the players picked up on ~2-3 sessions in and really enjoyed. No one was a cleric, and it was basically an outer god, but it made her a lot more memorable when I would swap his pronouns mid sentance or story.    You can explain it as something where they are such old entities gender has no meaning and they fluctuate between Male, Female, Both, and Neither.
#25 DarthMacho May 12, 2015 15:27:17	Thank you all for your advice. All of it was quite helpful. If I didn't get a chance to reply to your comment or suggestion, rest assured that I read it and am thankful for your input.   I've decided to go with the Greater and Lesser Gods of this world embodying both genders, and how they are depicted depends upon the worshippers. For example, elves see Pelor as female, dwarves see him as male, and humans, as always, vary.    I plan on writing a lot of mythology and lore associated with these gods since I will use this world for more than one campaign. All of it will be abridged of course, because I have neither the time nor the skill to write realistic mythology. I wish that I did!   Thanks again!
#26 McCringleberry May 12, 2015 19:03:35	DarthMacho wrote:
#27 BRJN May 13, 2015 18:03:50	DarthMacho wrote: