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| #1Matau99Mar 19, 2015 13:40:07 | So, my friend's a player/DM, and I'm a player/DM, and for his birthday he wanted to play through the Tomb of Horrors. We decided against running the original, since neither of us know AD&D. I've got a conversion in Dungeon #231, but I've cross-examined it with the original version... and I'm not so sure it's as deadly as the 1e version.
I know I'm supposed to be completely fair, offering no help nor any misleading, and just let the players live or die on their own. Does anyone else have it, and if so, can they provide some advice on lethality, or just some general tips on how I should run it and what I should do? |
| #2WaghalterMar 19, 2015 15:08:52 | I'm a big fan of this module (there are usually lovers or haters for ToH, very few in between). I would recommend letting your players know beforehand that there is a very good chance of death, so give them the option to roll up new PCs to sub for old favorites if they cherish their character that much.
I would definitely not not use any restraint here. I know there are many save or die encounters, but that's the point. Tomb of Horrors has a reputation as a party killer and for good reason; pulling punches would just make it a letdown for the players. You don't really have to try to kill the characters either, they will likely do it for you by making bad decisions. A lot of the tomb can be navigated safely by not touching anything, but in my experience, curiosity always gets the better of the players.
As as for the final encounter, the 5e version isn't as deadly as the original but I'd use it. It's still plenty dangerous for a 14th level group. |
| #3Matau99Mar 19, 2015 16:31:56 | I was referring more to the traps--10d10 damage instead of instant death.
But yeah, I think ToH is incredibly awesome. My players all know they're going to die, which is why I expect they'll all be creating new level 14 characters (with two backups each, of course.) |
| #4Sands666Mar 19, 2015 18:37:58 | There's a 5e version?
What about the 4e version? That one isn't totally lethal, at least not as lethal as the previous ones. You could just substitute 5e rules in there if you had the time to plan.
You basically just need to determine what the most fun adventure for your group will be. I'm assuming since they want ToH that they do want a deadly, comically difficult game. If that's the case maybe you could just have them make multiple characters (that could even be recycled if things keep going badly). Then just have a list handy for reasons the new characters could be in the dungeon and presto! New character is in the group. Maybe you could even take advantage of the random tables for PC motives in the PHB (or create your own that might have conflicting interests) and see what randomness causes the group to have conflicts due to their new characters personal agendas. Fact is, everyone in the ToH will need to work together to survive, so even characters who wouldn't normally work together will need to team up. So if you have the lethality set to extra high and multiple characters on the back burner "just in case" a character in the group dies, that could work out. Just see what the group wants first. |
| (Reply to #3)CCS |
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| #6Matau99Mar 19, 2015 19:16:32 |
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| #7Matau99Mar 20, 2015 10:35:52 | Do you think I should use the modern saving throw rules, or the kind in the original module (see below)?
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| (Reply to #7)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #9Matau99Mar 20, 2015 12:45:23 |
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| (Reply to #8)Ranthalan |
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| (Reply to #10)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| (Reply to #11)Ranthalan |
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| #13Matau99Mar 20, 2015 15:48:31 |
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| #14Matau99Mar 21, 2015 6:29:08 | Also, the MM talks about demiliches still having phylacteries, so what's Acererak's? I seem to recall somewhere that every single piece of treasure is, but can someone confirm/deny this? |
| (Reply to #3)Waghalter |
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| #16Matau99Mar 21, 2015 11:50:53 |
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| (Reply to #16)Waghalter |
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| #18ankiyavonMar 21, 2015 12:56:06 |
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| #19Matau99Mar 21, 2015 14:29:35 |
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| (Reply to #19)Waghalter |
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| #21Matau99Mar 21, 2015 15:09:26 |
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| #22WaghalterMar 26, 2015 11:39:43 | I've been going over the 5e version more thoroughly lately, which I think is very well done, but I'm uncertain how to handle remove/disable traps. The module doesn't give any clear guidelines in this regard. ToH relies more on the players' skills of deduction and less on dice rolls doing the work for them, yet I don't want to render the party rogue useless, who will undoubtedly have his Perception and thieves' tools bonuses ramped up to +15 or higher at level 14.
Any suggestions? |
| #23Matau99Mar 26, 2015 12:13:40 | Maybe give disadvantage for bad ideas and advantage for good ones? |
| (Reply to #23)Waghalter |
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| #25WaghalterMar 26, 2015 13:48:30 | Also, Necromancer Games' The Wurst of Grimtooth's Traps for d20 introduced the concept of complex traps having more than one trigger (primary, secondary, tertiary) and, to disable the trap properly, all of the triggers had to be disabled. The same idea would apply to a trap with a single trigger that was a seperate component of the trap itself (i.e. the trigger is in a different location to the trap, which is often the case). Essentially, it means more disable rolls but at least it gets the players more involved with the trap. I may try this in a few select places of the tomb. |
| #26Matau99Mar 26, 2015 14:57:35 | That's a very cool idea! I'm still going to have some of the spikes deal, say, 1000 poison dmaage. That way, if they get immune to poison somehow they won't die, but otherwise, if they step on a pit, they will. It actually seemed to me that the point of the four-armed gargoyle was to kill one very strong but fragile character (say, to take out the wizard early on). |
| #27WaghalterMar 27, 2015 11:24:48 | For area #8, these are the changes I made: the dimensions of the room (20' x 30') remain the same. The door on the SE wall (leading to area 9a) is now a secret door (Perception DC15). A 30-ft.long, 10-ft. wide walkway bisects the chamber from the entrance to the back of the room, where there is a false door. In the middle of the walkway is the gargoyle ( in temporal stasis and impervious to harm) and to either side of the walkway are 10-ft. deep pits lined with poisoned spikes. For this encounter, I've given the gargoyle the grab ability due to his four arms (if he succeeds in hitting a target with his claws).
The gargoyle does nothing while the party is in the room. It only attacks if anyone tries to remove its collar or tampers with the false door at the back of the chamber. Its tactics are to fly, attack and grab an opponent, then fly over a pit and drop the opponent into it (taking appropriate damage from the fall, spikes, and possibly poison).
As long as the party leaves the gargoyle and the false door alone, they are free to explore the room. They may even find the secret door to 9a and leave unscathed, albeit sacrificing the valuable treasure and clue in the gargoyle's collar. |
| #28ToucMar 27, 2015 11:29:57 | I've run ToH in AD&D (twice), 3rd edition, and Pathfinder, and not all players like it, so beware. ToH demonstrates even the best-made characters can and will get killed, and that not every situation can be "rolled" out of. Sometimes a player has to guess or get lucky. Players, unless they have read ahead (which is a huge risk if you run ToH given the advent of the Internet since it was published), can expect to have characters die. I wouldn't tone it down from 1st edition. I have run it largely the same, with some minor conversions of the monsters and scaling of trap damage. Given most of it requires players interact with the environment rather than roll dice to resolve the situation, little conversion is necessary. The final encounter? Wouldn't tone it down.... The 3rd edition Libris Mortis modification? Wouldn't use it.
With this in mind, make sure your players know what they're getting into. This was originally a tournament module meant to kill off characters. Players need to come in expecting this, and you'll need a plausible explanation to add a replacement, or perhaps let everyone run 2 characters. If you pull punches or begin giving saves or easy checks to avoid what used to be traps resolve by trial and error only, I think you'll diminish the legacy of the adventure (and seriously, if no one dies, you have likely skewed the adventure against its original lethality or players have read ahead). IF people survive with some sweet loot, I'd certainly allow some reward to their normal campaign characters.
Finally, there is a hardcore accolade due to anyone who can say they survived the AD&D version of the tomb....that's a reward in and of itself. |
| (Reply to #28)Waghalter |
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| #30WaghalterApr 08, 2015 22:34:13 | So we began the Tomb of Horrors for 5e rules last weekend. For those interested, I will post our gaming sessions room by room and explain how it went. Mods, if this is not the proper forum for such posts, please let me know. Given the title of this thread, I felt it appropriate.
I am using both the original AD&D S1 module (green cover) and the 5th edition playtrest version from Dungeon #231 for reference. Since we will use 5th edition rules, I will follow the 5e version of the module where applicable, but I've decided to keep the deadliness of all the traps intact from the original AD&D version - so the save or die areas (or areas with no save at all) that were toned down in the 5e version will be restored to their original lethality. This is not done to open a debate of how fair or unfair the original ToH is, it was simply my decision for my game and my players agreed with it. I agree with everything that Touc said and wish to maintain the legacy of the original ToH. YMMV.
For things like Perception checks and trap disabling, I have ruled that this will work normally with most of the mundane traps (such as the covered spiked pits and false door spear traps) but not with traps that call for specific interaction by the players (such as the Wizardly Workroom Fresco of area #4). In most of these cases, the 5e version remains pretty faithful to the original and does not offer a Perception or disable DC anyway.
The party is composed of six characters: a human paladin/cleric, a half orc monk/barbarian, a half elf ranger/rogue, a human fighter, a human warlock, and an elf sorcerer. All are 14th level.
PLEASE NOTE: TOMB OF HORRORS SPOILERS GALORE!
1. False Entrance Tunnel
The party located this entrance first. It is a 30-ft. long corridor, 20-ft. wide and high, with cobwebs covering the ceiling and a pair of oaken doors at the opposite end. The party were immediately suspicious of the cobwebs and quickly burned them away. They slowly began to enter the corridor, the ranger/rogue scouting about 15 feet ahead. At this point, I need to know if they are checking the ceiling specifically after burning the cobwebs so I asked them to describe in detail exactly how they proceed. They declare they are cautiously walking in and carefully inspecting the walls and floor for traps and hidden dangers. No one checks the ceiling. I do not allow a passive or active Perception check here to notice the badly fitted stones in the ceiling, but had anyone mentioned to look up I would freely point them out. They arrive at the double doors and examine them for traps. The DC to notice they are false doors is 15, so the ranger/rogue automatically spots this. Still, no one looks up and all attention is focused on the doors. I ask them what do they want to do, so the party decides to allow the fighter to try and open the door with the ranger/rogue while the rest of the party hangs back outside the tunnel. They pull on the doors and....CRRRAAAAASSSHHH as the whole ceiling collapses in on them. They take some damage and are briefly buried under the rubble, but all in all not a serious setback for them. "This was just a test run" they tell me. Heh.
2. False Entrance Tunnel
"This plain stone passageway has a ceiling 10 feet high. Two oaken doors bound in iron and set with iron pull-rings stand side by side at the end of the hallway."
The hallway is 60-feet long and 20-feet wide and halfway down there is a granite block on the east wall that is unlike the surrounding stonework, which can be noticed by any who carefully inspect the walls (which the party does). However, when one of the party members moved within 10 feet of one of the doors, this triggered the granite block to begin sliding across the hall, sealing off the passage.
I really like how this is handled in the 5e version. Rather than slowly count to ten (as in the original) to see if the party reacts in time to avoid being trapped, the trap is based on initiative. At initiative count 20, there is a 15-ft. gap remaining in the passage. At count 15, there is a 10-ft. gap. At count 10, there is a 5-ft. gap and at count 5 the passage is sealed. In the event of a tie, the wall goes first. This made the encounter a lot more suspenseful and engaging for the players. The PCs roll their initiative to determine if they escape the passage, yet surprisingly they did not make for the tunnel entrance. Since the doors had not been opened yet they believed them to be the entrance to the tomb, so they all leapt towards the doors where they would be sealed in. And this is where they also witness the first PC death. The fighter rolled a 5 for his initiative and, by pure bad luck, he was positioned at the 30-ft. mark of the passage against the west wall when the trap triggered, directly in line with the oncoming granite block. Since the wall goes first, at initiative count 5 it seals the passage and the fighter is crushed like a pancake.
After a long silent pause, they try the doors and discover them to be false. Eyes are rolled and they laugh it off, then after several dimension doors (and a long rest) they free the party from the sealed passage.
Ugh. Its late.
To be continued...
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