Hello guys.
I'm planning a long term hexcrawl campaign with friends and one of them asked me to play as a Summoner from Pathfinder. I'm familiar with the class and the rest of the guys agreed on letting him be one, since we made some adjustments to it so it was more balanced, playtested it, and liked it (so far, higher levels who knows).
However I found an issue... The "Summon Monster" Spell which right nwo is non-existant on playtest files nor Basic D&D.
Since I'm homebrewing the class, I need to come up with something that replaces those class feats since well, a guy what can cast spells (very limited) and has a monster digimon pet or whatever is actually strong, and I dislike the idea of this guys calling a full army of monsters to beat everyone up while the party watches.
Eidolon and Summoner are fun, and balanced to a point; Summon Monster I-IX is not.
Any ideas how to fill up those gaps?
I've never found Summon Monster overpowering. You mostly get creatures much weaker than the party from it. However, a simple fix comes to mind. Make your Summon Monster a concentration spell, and that precludes calling forth an army of creatures, only one at a time.
Just. Say. No.
I would say yes actually and I agree with Kyrion (sorry Lord Kyrion) 
Personally I think you should look to the Flaming Sphere spell as an example of a summon. Aside from the fact that it doesn't have any HP it works exactly like a summon spell should. It's concentration, it gives the wizard a bonus action to move it and it either attacks on the wizards turn (if he bumps it into a creature) or causes nearby creatures to have to roll a save (which could easily become attacks on its turn).
Negflar2099 wrote:
Since there will be a conjuration specialist wizard, I'd be unpleasantly surprised if they did not include summoning spells. I bet they make it a concentration spell that isn't any more effective than flaming sphere, spiritual weapon or mordenkainen's sword.
I agree with the above.
Concentraion, using a bonus action to attack with the monster.
I have played with an alternative where the summoned monster is "fire and forget"--you point at the target, the monster appears and makes an attack on the target, and goes back where it came from. I have the summoner make a D20 role, and if the result is 18+ (lower with feats), the monster attempts a grapple, and, if successful, drags the target back to the netherhell it came from. I think that works for 5 reasons:
1) Less clutter
2) No problem with the wizard summoning a bunch of demons--they will be gone in 6 seconds. The paladin might not even see them.
3) Mike Mearls said that class features should be better than spells, so chainlock's summoning (and Shaman's spirits if we ever get them) that hang around for a long time would be better than summon monster.
4) The summoned creatures don't compete as much as with other classes. Sure a summoner/wizard can summon a meat shield, but only for 6 seconds, whereas the paladin or fighter is going to be there a lot longer.
5) No more of the "I will use a 7th level spell to summon a demon for a wish."
Mechagamera wrote:
Chimerasame wrote:
Well, to anyone not familiar with Pathfinder's Summoner, this guy is considered "overpowered" because it has some sort of digimon pet at his side all the times.
His spell list is pretty much the Wizard's , but he can't pick spells from a list, he learns the spells once he gains new slots and they remain that way, and learns only 2 Cantrips.
The summoner is all about the Eidolon, the "digimon" with him, and I call him Digimon because this thing has points the summoner cand spend to evolve him, make him bigger, and sometimes hit HARD, and I mean HARD.
So, the summoner, besides having his trusty Eidolon (who can't die, gets reduced to 0 HP but dissapears for the remainder fo the day) ALSO gains Summon Monster from I to IX as class features, so when the summoner CAN summon an Archon and ALSO fight with his custom OP monster (and at level 20 the Eidolon can pull of a Digimon 4 and become a humanoid ultra warrior for 20 minuutes), you can imagine how having extra allies help him be a one man (?) army...
My approach would simply be a combination of bonded creature and summoner-themed FF-type instance spells. The summoner's features would allow them to upgrade their eidolon in various ways, while their spells could help buff or heal their eidolon, or attack independently of their eidolon by summoning creatures for instant or short-lived effects that would effectively work not much differently from a standard spell, such as a swarm of bats to distract foes (a varient darkness spell) or a spirit dragon that breaths fire before retreating to its home (burning hands direct from a distant square rather than yourself). One thing I would probably carry over from 4e is having the eidolon, at least to some extent, share your actions and initiative.
That would be the basic setup. The trick would be balancing the power and utility of the ediolon with the power and utility whatever the summoner can do with themselves so that their combination hits the "just right" mark.
Fireclave wrote:
Personally I would suggest waiting until the PHB is out in a few weeks. It will contain all the rules/spells for summoning creatures. Your player might find an existing class does the trick well enough (such as a conjurer wizard or a chain pact warlock).
Here's an animal-summoning spell I homebrewed during the playtest, updated to the final rules:
Summon Beast
1st-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 25 feet
Duration: Concentration, up to 4 rounds
You summon a celestial, fey, or fiendish version of any CR 1 beast you know of to a location within range. It acts right after your turn and attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with it, you can give the creature more precise orders as a bonus action. At the end of the spell’s duration it instantly vanishes, along with anything it created( like a spider’s web or poison). If the beast is reduced to 0 HP, it likewise vanishes. It is not possible to summon a specific individual this way, nor can you force a beast that isn’t unaligned to fight for you.
You may reduce the duration of this spell by 2 rounds; each time you do so, it increases the CR of beast you may summon by 1.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, increase the duration by 4 rounds for each level above 1st.
(The math here assumes CR is approximately equivilant to character level, so you can't ever summon something much stronger than you)
I am familiar with the Pathfinder Summoner (or as I like to think of him as the "one man party"). I am not sure that it fits well with what we have seen of 5e (or even in Pathfinder for that matter). I definitely think summoning should require a concentration check while the summoned critter is on the field. Chainlocks wouldn't need concentration for their pets, because control comes from the pact, not the 'lock. I would say a chain warlock/wizard multiclass would fit the PF Summoner with fewer problems. The chainlock could sic his pet on the enemy and the next round summon something like a wizard, and spend concentration on controlling the summoned critter afterwards (might require a feat to make the pet act autonomously in those rounds, but that seems like a "Big Feat" worthy feat to me). The multiclass would slow the PC's power growth as either a 'lock or a wizard, so it is unlikely he/she would out meat shield the fighter, or out sneak the rogue at low levels. It also keeps the clutter manageable.
Mechagamera wrote:
Aldath wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
Aldath wrote: