Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Einiweini7 Oct 03, 2014 23:57:05	As nearly as I can tell, the Rogue from hiding with a bow at long range is the most effective attacker, even beating the ranger.  As an example, lets put the Rogue on a rocky hilltop shooting down at a hoard of orcs climbing upward. Next to the Rogue is the Ranger. The Rogue pops out of hiding and fires his bow at the same time as the Ranger. The Ranger has disadvantage so will always hit on the lesser of two rolls, The Rogue (thief) fires without disadvantage or advantage, they cancel each other out. As his bonus action the rogue drops back into hiding. The next turn the rogue crawls hidden to a rock 10' away, pops up and again fires without disadvantage. First thing to say is that I won't allow this anyway. I think the range disadvantage takes precedence over the sneak attack. I would be more inclined to allow the sneak attack damage if the Rogue made the shot on his lower die roll from the disadvantage. Secondly I won't let a rogue hide in plain sight. I don't think you can hide once the enemy is aware of you unless you can relocate to a new location behind cover or in darkness (You would need a minimum of 5 locations-25' of hiding area).If you can't relocate I would just consider it cover and not hidden. Lastly I think the ranger should not suffer disadvantage at long range. The idea is just contrary to every fantasy novel I have ever read. (At 4th level the ranger can become a sharpshooter but so can the Rogue if the optional Feat rules are used)
#2 abs1nth Oct 04, 2014 2:46:16	You could rule that the arrow will be seen before it hits because it has such a long trajectory. I wouldn't however hack the rules to make these special case exceptions such as range penalty overules hiding advantage. That would get messy.   This is how I generally handle hiding: link.
#3 pauldanielj2 Oct 04, 2014 7:38:35	Einiweini7 wrote:
(Reply to #3) Einiweini7	pauldanielj2 wrote:
#5 Einiweini7 Oct 04, 2014 9:25:46	abs1nth wrote:
#6 Ansbach Oct 04, 2014 13:23:19	In a Q&A Mearls said it is the DM's call, but suggested that the rogue gets advantage on the first attack and then disadvantage on the attempt to hide after the attack.  He also clarified that the Rogue only gets the stealth benefit if he can remain hidden during the attack.    I think that's as close to an official ruling as we are going to get.
(Reply to #3) Kazadvorn	pauldanielj2 wrote:
#8 Ansbach Oct 04, 2014 10:54:53	It's not very clear in the PHB either, which is why there are a lot of questions about it. "You can't hide from a creature that can see you".  "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances a DM may allow you to stay hidden." etc.   So I guess the short version of how I would handle it is just what I covered above.  If you as the GM decide that the player has attacked out of a hiding place, can't clearly be seen and they want to rehide before they give themselves away - let them do so with disadvantage on the check.  If they are clearly seen when they attack, they can't rehide.  But it's ultimately up to you: rulings, not rules - which for the most part I love, but definitely backfires in a few cloudy areas.  I would also consider things like distance, cover and lighting in my own ruling.     If you have a rogue in your party it's going to come up a lot, so I think the most important thing is to figure out how you want to handle it, get on the same page as the rouge player and then be consistent.
#9 Jet_Jordan Oct 04, 2014 12:07:25	I think it's situational.  If there is a single tree to hide behind its going to be pretty obvious where your character is hiding.  However, if there is a 50 ft long ridge of waist high rocks the enemy might not be able to figure out where the attack will come from, or where the previous one came from for that matter.     In my opinion you really should just think critically about the situation.  In real life, would this situation actually give them an advantage?  If so, then award advantage, or disadvantage appropriately.  I try not to think about it too hard.  Most things are pretty obvious when you think about it rationally, and thus is the beauty of the ADV/DISADV system imo.  The Elves/halflings trait that makes it easier to hide should certainly be appled to those situations when you are on the fence.  If your not sure about it either way, then hide is a success.  Maybe I'm being too loose with the rules here, but a mindset like this really makes the game move at a nice pace.   As far as ranger vs rogue in this regard;  I think they are situational as well.  Ranger gets second attack later and some nice ranged spells which will make them better ranged attackers most of the time.  Ensaring strike stands out early.  Your always a better ranged attacker if the target stays at range ;P  No doubt rogues can dish out those massive damage turns, but the ranger can be specced into a ranged monster.  Also worth remembering the ranger and damage on longbow>shortbow.  Saying that you can take a feat with rogue to make them better archers gives way to the argument that you can take the sharpshooter feat with a rangers at 4th level.
(Reply to #4) pauldanielj2	Einiweini7 wrote:
(Reply to #10) Gruff_Ironfist	pauldanielj2 wrote:
#12 Psikerlord Oct 06, 2014 0:33:59	Einiweini7 wrote:
#13 Timborama Oct 06, 2014 7:17:01	Einiweini7 wrote:
#14 Elyseon Oct 07, 2014 5:50:03	Imho, the rogue can't hide twice on the same place unless he has the Skulker feat (and misses). Once the rogue shoots, he sneaks but his location is revealed. If he was hiding behind a tree/ table and tries to go back behind it again, he's not hiding, he's taking cover. You can't surprise an enemy that knows that you're "hiding" behind a table/ tree in particular.
#15 BW0222 Oct 08, 2014 10:02:40	Einiweini7 wrote: