Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 solomani Aug 29, 2015 8:44:09	hi all, I really enjoy the abstract combat option of 5e (I refuse to call it TotM).   It harkens back to 1e days as well as keeping the game pace at a good speed eliminating combat as a time sink.  Allowing me to use the full blown grid combat for big (or otherwise important) battles.     I do have one niggling issue in the 12 months of 5e gaming that I haven't found a satisfactory solution too. The sorceress in our group raised the point that spells like lightning bolt and to a lesser extent fireball are too difficult to use in abstract combat so she just doesn't use them.  The reason is I haven't been able to find a good house rule to allow some finesse in her targeting.  It's either the more realistic "well you hit everyone including your allies" or the unrealistic "you can always maneuver for maximum affect".    I would like to give the second option as the one to use along with that table in the DMG that determines target count but I want there to be some kind of penalty to avoid abuse.  Something like you give up your move or something or skip a turn - though I don't like those so have come here to The Collective for ideas.    Thanks in advance!
#2 iserith Aug 29, 2015 9:47:55	solomani wrote:
#3 CCS Aug 29, 2015 10:34:31	You're problem is solved the same way here in 2015 as it was decades ago: A really good description of where everybody is, followed by some back & forth with the player (s) until you're all picturing the same thing. You could also have her make an Arcana check. The better her roll, the more control she has over "placing" the effect. The worse she does....
#4 Gwaithador Aug 29, 2015 10:46:45	Sound advice from Iserith. Here's another possibilty (that could  be used in conjunction with Iserith's suggestion).  Allow the expenditure of Sorcery Points to enhance the effects of the "Careful Spell" metamagic feat. This ties it  directly to what a sorcerer is already capable of doing: metamagic and expending Sorcery Points. Maybe the expenditure of one additional sorcery point adds resistance against the energy of the spell (resistance: fire for example). The characters protected by the careful spell metamagic would automatically make their saving throw from the first expenditure of  a sorcery point and gain resistance to the effect with the expenditure of a second sorcery point. You've incorporated a mechanical "cost" that's not excessive, but does require the sorcerer to consider her tactics and available resources.   Using Iserith's suggestion, she could choose to hit more enemies but  for the sake of an example, it will require 3 allies to suffer the spell affects instead of two. She employs the "careful fireball". Her charisma is high enough that she can grant those three allies automatic successful saves and fire resistance for the cost of 2 sorcery points.   Edit: I also like the suggestion of  incorporating the Arcana roll into the proceeding, that's a good suggestion. Anyt time a player feels their skills are valuable an come into play, I think that's a plus.
#5 BRJN Aug 29, 2015 16:11:47	Make up a sketch map with no grid but a scale marked on it.  When it matters, rough-in where the NPCs are.  The sorceress can indicate with a potatoe chip or something, "I want to place my Fireball about HERE to hit this group of goons but the close edge is just in front of Fred's shield."   The Arcana check to 'get it right' is a neat idea.    Alternative: slow down her Move because she's concentrating on the magic so much.
#6 solomani Aug 31, 2015 4:51:32	Thanks everyone for the keen advice.  I really love the brain trust of DMs here.  I like the idea of using a arcane skill roll and/or spell points.  The roll adds some risk vs. reward and spell-points, which my player doesn’t really use much, then becomes a more useful resource.  My idea:   1  Determine the maximum number of targets affected per DMG pg. 249 2  Based on the logic of the combat determine who would be affects - for example Fighter Y is in melee with Mob 6 a fireball will hit both. 3  Make a DC 10 +5 per target you want to make immune to the attack.  For example make an arcane DC 15 roll to make one target immune to the attack, say Fighter Y but not Mob 6.  This roll may also be modified by any benefits you have like advantage or fate points. 4  Further modify the DC by the number of spell points the character wishes to burn on a 1 to 1 basis. 5  Finally use spell points to add any other modifications you like   ROLL THE DICE   Just to answer some questions/suggestions.   BRJN wrote:
#7 DemoMonkey Aug 31, 2015 9:55:21	"It's either the more realistic "well you hit everyone including your allies" or the unrealistic "you can always maneuver for maximum affect". "   Or you make something up, beacause you're DM.   Player: "How many of the 10 gnolls can I catch in a fireball?" DM: (Based on their mental picture) "6. Do you still want to cast it?" Player: "Does this handful of bat guano answer your question?" DM: "Ewww. WHY WOULD YOU BRING THAT?!"   Don't overthink.
#8 Rya.Reisender Sep 01, 2015 0:57:48	I play with abstract combat and usually have no issues with spells, because that's a simple dialogue between the player and me:   Player: I want to use Burning Hands on these (4) enemies, how many can I hit? DM: Hmm if you walk next to one, I guess you could hit 3 of them at once, but you will also hit the Peter, who is currently standing between them. If you attack from 10 feet away, you can still hit two of them. Player: Hmm, but I have this sculpt spells feat, it allows me to avoid hitting allies. DM: *checks* Oh your are right, fair enough, you can hit 3 and avoid hitting Peter. Player: Will I still have movement left after the attack? DM: Yeah, you only need about 15ft to walk next to them so you'll have 15ft movement left, but it will provoke an opportunity attack if you do it, unless they die. Player: I'll take the risk. DM: Good. *rolls dice with player*
#9 GrandFalloon Sep 01, 2015 10:37:59	One thing you could try is to divide the battlefield into "zones."  If you're in a tavern for example, you might have the following zones:  the bar, the common area, the stage, the stairs, the balcony.  When a group goes into melee, they become an Engagement.  You can have multiple Engagements in a Zone, and anyone in an Engagement can hit anyone else in it.   Small AoE spells can hit one engagement.  You could spend your movement to have it miss, say, 1d4 of your allies (maybe you're aiming carefully, maybe you're moving to line up your shot).  A larger spell would target a zone, maybe two.  You're going to have a tough time fireballing an enemy group without hitting your friends, unless they're at a distance shooting arrows.   It will probably take some tweaking and experimentation, but I've had the zone thing work pretty well.   Also, when you plot out your battlefields, it can help you make things a little more interesting.  Rather than an empty field with a few randomly placed trees, if you think in zones, you can try to make one interesting thing about each one.  Then you might have "open clearing," "thicket of bushes," "creekbed," which empties into "muddy pool."  Every zone would have more or less cover, difficult terrain, and so on.  The bushes might be great for launching an ambush, but difficult to move around, and a fireball could set the bushes alight.  The creek bed offers cover if you're shooting out of it, but has loose footing, and someone leaping in on top of you may have advantage.  The muddy pool is difficult terrain and you can get knocked underwater, but you can also duck into it to avoid the worst of that fireball.
#10 Psikerlord Sep 01, 2015 14:59:41	DemoMonkey wrote:
#11 Stuntman Sep 02, 2015 16:26:48	When I was DM'ing 4E, I decided to just do away with the grid.  For AoE spells, I just make an estimate or I just tell the player roll something like 2d4 to see how many targets you can safely hit.  It worked well enough.