Hi All,
I wondered about this and would like to get your thoughts. For passive Perception, characters are assumed to be "Taking 10" in 3E parlance. So now my character is in a situation where I want to actively search for something. The DM has me roll. I roll a 5. So, had I not looked, I would have effectively a 10 on my roll, but now by looking intentionally for something, I now notice less stuff?
So, how do you see it working and how do you handle this at your table?
Cheers
Never, ever roll if there's nothing going on, or failure would be boring. Either take the passive number or, if they specifically say they look for it, they find it. Rolling is for when there's combat, or active opposition (which is also rolling).
There's no point in trying to game passive scores. They were added because some people can't handle it when the GM asks them to roll Perception when they haven't said they're looking, and can't handle being ambushed when they haven't said they weren't looking.
The PHB recommends Passive Perception (p175) for, among other things, tasks done repetitively, like searching for 10 minutes instead of 1 minute. IN your example, I'd say you rolled a 5 after a minute. If you wanted to spend 10 minutes and risk wandering monsters, you could get a 10.
At my table, I generally roll secretly (I roll for the PCs whenever I deem necessary without telling the players, and I do not tell the players the result) instead of using Passive Perception. 2 reasons:
- Say you have a hall with a secret door of DC 20 in an adventure. Assuming the party never feels like actively searching the area, barring advantage/disadvantage, a party will always find that secret door if someone has a PP of 20 or more, and never find that door if it is less. If I roll instead, the result feels less predecided.
- I'd also think PCs, when hiding or searching for something, always think they did their best, which means seeing their actual rolls hands their players a dose of dramatic irony and generally want to re-roll based on knowledge their PCs don't have. If the players want to spend 10 mintues, risking wandering monsters or timed events, for 10 rolls (which I'd probably run as one advantaged roll), they can, but they won't know how well they did because they are trying their best all the time.
DooHickey wrote:
DooHickey wrote:
abs1nth wrote:
I use passive and active perception in combination even when the player anounces an active search.
Lets take the scouting ahead as an example:
Scout with passive perception 15, active roll 7
Orc with stealth 14 hiding
Result: Scout detects the orc with passive perception.
Scout with passive perception 15, active roll 17
Orc with stealth 16
Result: Scout detects orc with active perception
Scout with passive perception 15 and roll 12
Orc with stealth 16
Result: Scout does not detect orc
I don't use passive Wisdom (Perception) for searching, since it's an active process of the character. If something is hidden (like in the drawers), than the players roll, if something is laying openly, I use the passive score, since it may come up with a search, but is obviously enough planted that some higher awareness will find it even before the searching process starts (basically DC 5-15 in passive, depending on visibility or similar factors).
But I won't count that as a search.
Use passive scores if things aren't actively made by your character, but subconscious. Works allright.
kueryd wrote:
It's a tough distinction, because you would use passive perception to see a hidden monster but not to see a hidden object. I think using the higher of the two is reasonable if it bugs you.
If you wanted to keep it and just explain it away, then perhaps a low roll means you are searching hard in all the wrong places - like you are searching the entire house for your keys when your wife hung them up on the key rack by the door. Not that I've ever failed that search check myself, mind you... 
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
As a DM you normally call for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action that has a chance of failure and use passive checks (BR pg. 59) instead of rolling them when you want to either determine the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or when you wants to secretly determine whether it succeed at something, such as noticing a hidden monster.
With 5th, I'm trying to get away from the pre-programmed style of ability checks in 4e (Roll a 15 you know/see 'X'... roll an 18 - you know/see 'X+Y'... etc), in favor of a more player centered search.
So if the players enter a room and say they're looking around... the assumption is that they're standing near the door, or in the center of the room and just looking around. I'll tell them what they can see, but no matter how many times they roll the dice, I'm not going to tell them what's in the third drawer down in the cabinet in the corner.
Now, lets say they say they're searching the walls of the room for secret doors - then it becomes a rolling situation... Perception or Investigation - depending on what the player's trump suit is... Assuming that the intelligent, trained Thief is using his knowledge to find the door... and that the intuitive, perceptive Ranger is going to notice a hint of breeze, a hollow sound, foot prints leading up to a blank wall or some other clue.
For passive perception vs active... it's simple...
You enter the room... your passive perception kicks in automatically so if your PP is 12 and you need a 12 to see something you see it... no need to roll. If you needed a 15 to see that thing... then you'll need to roll and hope for the best. I always assume a player's passive score (10+modifier) is automatic... the roll only becomes necessary if you need to exceed your normal ablitiy. So - break open a door... Athletics 15, you need a 12 - pass. Athetics 15 you need and 18 - roll... simple.
Passive Perception worked well in 4e, but more and more I'm thinking it doesn't work in 5e. I might house rule it out.
iserith wrote:
DooHickey wrote: