Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Danny_Montanny Sep 11, 2015 7:16:51	I wanted to throw out a thing I've been thinking about. There are a few mechanics that play with the lifting and carting rules. Namely the Goliath's Powerfuld Build and the Barbarian's 6th level Bear Totem ability. These abilities drastically increase your carrying capacity and how much you can lift. What, if any, implication would this have on their actions to do anything other than the specified RAW?   Example: I want to throw a 200 lb rock at someone.   An 18 Str character with both of the features I named has a carrying capacity of 1,080 lbs. 200 lbs isnt that much compared to that, so it seems feasible. Should a 200 lb rock chucked at you really only deal 1d4 damage? Does a giant's boulder even weigh that much? Probably, but they do 3d10-4d12 damage which is a far cry from 1d4.   How would you handle this seemingly extremely strong character in comparison with a character of the same mechanical Strenght score?
#2 iserith Sep 11, 2015 7:51:13	Interesting question. Have you seen it come up in game yet?   I would say that carrying, pushing, dragging, or lifting is not the same as picking up and throwing with a measure of accuracy. Certainly a character's limit on lifting something will determine whether what the player described he or she wanted to do is even possible. The example character you propose would be able to lift a 200-lb. boulder for sure. But how do we adjudicate throwing it and how much damage does it do?   Without Tavern Brawler, the attack roll is already without a proficiency bonus. So I'd be reluctant to impose disadvantage on top of that despite how unwieldy a boulder might be. I think therefore it would be the range that I limit, bringing it down to perhaps 10/30 or something like that. Damage from rocks thrown by giants seems to always be a d10 damage die except for storm giants, which is a d12. I'm not sure why the variance here as the giants are all Huge, save for the storm giant's Str 29 which is 4 points higher than the next highest. So I'll discount that storm giant as an outlier for now. If we say the 4d10 is based on the size of the creature throwing it, stepping it down to Medium makes it, say, 2d6 plus Strength modifier. With a race- or class-based boost to lift, I'd suggest stepping that up to a 2d8 plus Strength modifier. With than 18 Strength, that's 11 and 13 bludgeoning damage respectively on average, a decent amount for a thrown weapon (at least compared to other options).   This "feels" about right to me. For anyone without Tavern Brawler and who isn't a goliath or a 6th-level barbarian, the boulder is short range for damage on par with other available weapons, and without a proficiency bonus to attack rolls - a situational choice at best. That seems right. For a goliath or 6th-level barbarian, the damage goes up a tick - situational, but slightly better. Certainly if such a character wants to do this reliably, Tavern Brawler is a good get.
#3 DM_Craig Sep 11, 2015 7:53:02	Well, for the Bear Aspect example, the text tells you exactly what is enhanced, and throwing is not in there, and neither is a bonus to attack rolls. Basically, you gain the strength of a bear in order to do bear-like things, such as lifting, pushing, pulling, breaking, etc. So this Barbarian feature would not factor in to one's ability to throw a boulder.   I only have the core rulebooks, so can't help you with the Goliath question (since I'm assuming the race comes in one of the supplemented adventures)
(Reply to #3) Danny_Montanny	DM_Craig wrote:
(Reply to #4) DM_Craig	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#6 Danny_Montanny Sep 11, 2015 12:01:30	Let's take the weakest of the giants, the Hill Giant, and their rock. They have a +5 Strength modifier and +8 to hit (so +3 proficiency). 60/240 range and 3d10 damage. Their 21 Strength gives them a 1,260 lb carrying capacity due to their Huge size. So my Medium sized creature with the exact same Strength score and carrying capacity (we'll even throw in Tavern Brawler) can't throw the same rock to similar effect, because? Because they're not big enough? Because they're a PC? How is a big heavy thing thrown at you by a strong ass creature different than a big heavy thing being thrown at you by a strong ass PC?   I just really don't see the distinction.
(Reply to #6) AaronOfBarbaria	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#8 iserith Sep 11, 2015 12:15:21	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#9 DM_Craig Sep 11, 2015 13:27:19	Something to also take in to consideration is proficiency. Giants throw rocks. They've honed their skill and can do so with deadly force and accuracy. It's like an archer with a longbow or a fighter with a greatsword. A PC who is not proficient in boulder-throwing is not going to throw them to the same effect as the giant, no matter how strong they currently are.
#10 ChelseaNH Sep 11, 2015 13:32:20	Are giants hurling around 200 lb boulders?   If the boulder is made of granite, a 200 lb boulder is slightly larger than a cubic foot.  Bigger than your head.  Lifting a boulder is one thing; carrying it another; throwing it yet another.  Controlling how something flies through the air is partly a function of hand size.  To get any distance, you have to throw it hard enough that it travels before gravity pulls it to the ground -- so you need considerably more than carrying strength to throw successfully.   So I think you'd want to look at the ratio of the object's weight to your lifting capacity (seems closest mechanically) in order to determine the range.   As for damage, getting hit with 200 lbs of anything is going to render you non-functional, because bones are getting crushed.
#11 Danny_Montanny Sep 11, 2015 17:46:04	Math tells me a men's basketball size hunk of solid granite is only about 42 lbs. 3e has huge Giants hurling rocks that weigh about 60-80 lbs. That gives us a boulder up to a little over 2 inches in diameter bigger than our basketball. They're also hucking them super far, so maybe they're around the size of a softball to them? Our 5e Giants aren't throwing them nearly as far, but they do more damage (not sure how equivalent the damage compares from the two editions, however). A softball size hunk of granite is 2.8 lbs, so the 1d4 makes pretty good sense in comparison.   Whatever this means really has no baring on building game mechanics though. I do like what's been brought up, so I'm gonna try to design a game mechanic for throwing objects based around size and carrying capacity.
#12 Danny_Montanny Sep 12, 2015 5:01:40	Wield or Throw Heavy Objects Your capacity to wield or throw heavy objects is influenced by your size and strength. Weather you're swinging an exceptionally large tree branch (or entire tree), throwing large rocks at an enemy, or even throwing that enemy, use these rules in conjunction with the Improvised Weapons rules for making attack rolls.   Weight A heavy object needs to weighs at least 25 pounds. You can throw the object so long as it doesn't weigh any more than 1/2 of your carrying capacity.   Reach and Range Your size category determines the reach and range of the heavy objects you can use. The size, reach, and ranges are listed below.   Tiny: reach 5 feet, range 0/15 Small and Medium: reach 5 feet, range 10/30 Large: reach 10 feet, range 30/90 Huge: reach 10 feet, range 60/180 Gargantuan: reach 15 feet, range 100/300   Damage The damage a heavy object can do to a creature is determined by your size category and carrying capacity. You do a number of dice of damage for each of the size categories (Small and Medium are one category) as listed in the range table above, beginning with one die for Tiny creatures and ending with five dice for Gargantuan creatures. The damage die is determined by your carrying capacity. It begins as a d6 and increases/decreases by one size for each instance that your carrying capacity is doubled/halved. This damage is bludgeoning damage and assumes you're using a hard solid object. If both the object used and your target are objects that aren't very hard or solid (or a creature), divide the damage in half and apply it to both the target and the object (or creature) used evenly.   This gives the exact calculations that iserith detailed while outlining it for every instance I can think of. It even shows how the average Giant's boulder does 4d10 and has a range of 60/240.
#13 Greenstone.Walker Sep 11, 2015 19:19:23	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#14 ChelseaNH Sep 11, 2015 23:19:05	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #14) Danny_Montanny	ChelseaNH wrote:
(Reply to #15) DM_Craig	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#17 ChelseaNH Sep 12, 2015 16:38:46	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#18 Mad_Jack Sep 13, 2015 1:39:19	From a real-world physical perspective, there's a huge difference between carrying a person or two, which is entirely dependent on core strength, and trying to throw something that weighs just as much - which is much more about arm and upper-body strength and leverage. In comic books, you see average-sized people with 50-ton lifting limits throwing tanks and buildings around, but in actuality they couldn't do that simply because they don't have the leverage needed to accomplish that. As mentioned above, most folks on this board could easily bear-hug a 200-lb. guy and pick them up off the ground for a fair amount of time. On the other hand, I doubt anyone here could pick that same person up at arms' length and try to hold them up. Holding a 200-lb. boulder in your arms is nowhere near the feat that lifting it over your head and throwing it with any accuracy would be.
#19 Delazar78 Sep 13, 2015 3:57:44	Also, how accurate are you throwing a baseball? Now, how accurate are you throwing a 6-ft diameter inflated ball?   I think the relative size of the thrower and the object thrown matter some, not only you capacity to lift it.   But in the end, it's all about what "makes for a fun game"? So how would rule for a middle ground.   "You want to throw rocks like a giant (4d10+Str), but you're only medium-sized? OK, you do 3d8+Str, one attack is your action. Go!"
#20 Danny_Montanny Sep 13, 2015 7:59:53	Here's the deal. Im a personal trainer and I know how the body works. How it works doesn't fit with how the rules are presented anyways. Ok, I can deadlift over 400 lbs, but does that mean I can bench press, clean and jerk, or snatch the same weight? Definitely not. Even powerlifters and Olympians can't lift the same weight for all of the different major lifts. However, the game makes no differentiation between these movements. They're all just... lifting.   Moreover, could I strap a 200 lb weight vest on and go about my day without it interfering with anything I do? I wish! Sure, if we used the encumbrance variant, it would. So a 125 lb weight vest would slow me down a little, but I could still function the same? I've worn a 100 lb vest and that thing sucks.   The point is, the rules do not reflect reality. When the rules don't make a distinction between the strength of the largest humans that have ever lived and a child (Halfling), that's when you throw reality right out the window.   What I've presented is for a game. A game in which my Goliath can lift a literal ton over their head because it's within their capabilities outlined by the game's structure. What percentage of that ton should they be able to swing or throw around without your reality getting infringed upon?