It's difficult to tell someone that he or she is doing a less-than-stellar job without some measure of pushback - we see this all the time on the forums, let alone in person. While the DM is asking for feedback, one wonders if the players are giving it to him straight or whether he's internalizing what they're telling him. So first thing is to just be direct and polite about it and ask for his help in resolving the issues that are negatively impacting the game experience. If there is an unwillingness to change and you (or others) find you can't sit through a game like that, then you simply part ways, at least when it comes to him running a game.
There are also two or more sides to every story, so let's at least examine the game a little bit further here. I have some questions:
AndrewJO wrote:
maybe the monk was tiamat secretly hiding under the effects of an illusion. Passive Perception of 36 XD
but to be fair, some martial arts characters, probably through a barbarian mystic monk combo or something, can detect hidden people, no matter what they roll. Pressure sensors on the floor can also exist, and it's possible through tensors telepathic bond that a monk in one room could have spies outside watching them enter.
that asside, some DMs are very by the book, and some are loose with rules to a fault. You just have to adapt different playing strategies for each.
I've had a player try to play through a module like it was a video game. What they were trying to experience is winning against the scenario, in a by the book sort of way, as if they were in competition with all the other players that may have played through the module. I chalk it up to video game/MMO think. They play a lot of mmo's and are ones to always be trying to figure out the best way to win against a well documented scenario. You know these people. Nothing wrong with it, nor is it wrong to come at d&d that way, as long as everyone else also has fun that way. Your DM may be trying to run the game the way he would like to play it.
If the rest of the group isn't enjoying his turn as DM either, talk it over with him and them, then arrange to "skip" his turn as DM. Continue until less-than-half the group is alternating the DM job.
The point is to make it look like you are trying to concentrate on the best DMs, not exclude him personally. (May require better CHR checks than I can get IRL.)
Both players and DM need to have a good time. It could very well be that your style of playing does not match well with his preferred style of DM'ing. This doesn't mean that either one of you is in the wrong. It just means that you need to find a way to make it work. If he's running a prewritten campaign, and you go off the rail a lot, this could be frustrating for a DM who is not very good at making things up himself. He chose to run a prewritten campaign for a good reason I presume. If you dislike this, just agree as a group that you don't want to play prewritten modules.
There are other senses in the game that something could perceive you with. If you're in contact with the ground, Tremorsense will pick you up no matter how stealthy you are. Blindsight will do the same thing no matter what. Then there's Truesight, which will see through your invisibility, even with your stealth because you can't be hidden out in the open like that.
Perhaps the Monk had on of these senses. Perhaps a monk in a certain monestary that worships Elemental Earth, maybe?
Danny_Montanny wrote:
AndrewJO wrote:
AndrewJO wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
AndrewJO wrote:
Imaculata wrote:
Rasufemagger wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
BRJN wrote:
The stealth is not the problem. The rolls don't dictate anything. The DM is perfectly within their rights to say the blindsighting monk is a special case, and the stealth roll doesn't matter.
If you had godly stealth rolls and were totally undetectable, it sounds like there was no challenge. You were just going through the motions at that point. The DM is supposed to provide challenges. They can throw a wrench into the works and see how you handle it. The adventure gave them a wrench that was perfect for this situation, and they threw it (perhaps clumsily).
I'm still curious what caused "a monk challenged us" to become "we spent 3 hours fighting nonstop through several rooms." That's where I think the main problem is. The monk seeing you shouldn't have been a problem if what happened next was interesting and fun. But my guess, from the descriptions here, is it went something like this: you checked out the door, the monk said "aha there you are" and started combat, that noise or the noise of fighting alerted the entire rest of the dungeon, and you fought everyone off just as you would have if you just stormed the place in the first place without using stealth.
If I'm correct, the problems with that are an unavoidable trap (because the monk instantly noticed you and reacted, you couldn't have done anything about it), and negating your entire approach and goal (you wanted to be stealthy, but thanks to said unavoidable trap, you may as well not have been.)
The stealth check isn't the problem. It's that the DM isn't good at making consequences that are fun to play through.
Macv12 wrote:
Slightly tangential question : how are you getting XPs in this campaign? Strictly for monsters defeated, or per milestone/per session? What level are your chars?
If it's combat encounters only XPs, maybe he wants you to get them?
However the DM could have dealt with it in a more believable way - perhaps breaking your concentration somehow so the Pass Without Trace fails (you step on a sharp stone flagstone for one point of damage, just as you're opening the door 
).
Certainly the door being opened a crack should have been detectable by blindsight - but the monk may have called out 'Who's there' and/or sent some people to investigate, rather than directly challenge unseen characters...I'm with you on that one.
My reading of the first post describes to me a social problem. The DM is asking for feedback to improve himself, but then fails to make effective changes, right?
Improvements begin with feedback, but contiues with the question, "how can it be improved?" Don't just give feedback, give constructive criticism. Offer a solution along with the problem. Even better, offer many solutions and let the DM choose what he thinks is the best solution (this works on managers and bosses too).
If you've given him a fair shake, and he still doesn't get better, simply be honest and talk to him. Tell him you're not having fun. Tell him your sore spots with his DM'ing style, and DO NOT apologize for it. It is up to him to either make some real changes, and up to you to continue coming to his games. At least if you stop showing up to his games, he understands why it is so.
Online forums are great for problem solving if he has a specific rules question. Have you tried introducing him to this, or other D&D forums online where he can ask for help?
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Also, not everyone is going to be a great DM. I believe everybody can improve with practice. Not everyone, however, improves at the same rate. Everybody also has a different upper limit to how good they will become at something for any number of reasons. At some point, you have the power to choose. Choose wisely.
If you're not having fun, you need to tell your DM why.
If they will not or can not change, you need to fire them. I had to fire one once. It wasn't pretty, but in the end it was for the best.
AndrewJO wrote:
This is the part of learning to DM where people discover it is not for them. 
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Also, you gotta break that big brick of a paragraph into smaller parts. Be kind to my eyes. It's the sort of thing that makes people want to not read your post.
That’s a tough call. On the one hand, having the players’ success get negated can feel rotten. On the other hand, having a challenging adventure get turned into a cakewalk right in front of your eyes is extremely frustrating.
Part of being a good DM is flexibility and the ability to adapt on the fly. I don’t know what the solution is, but the 4e Dungeon Master’s Guide II contains some really wonderful advice for DMs, new and old.
Since you’re all taking turns DMing to learn the ropes, you could also start the ball rolling by asking for feedback after you’re done running an adventure – with the caveat that it needs to be constructive and polite? Maybe it would catch on with the other folk when it comes time to DM, but if not, at least you're getting valuable information that can be used to improve your games.
First and foremost, whatever you do or say be mindful of your choice of words and tone - some people don't take constructive critiscism as well as others and they just see it as an attack.
1) Ask him not to introduce coin-flip rulings into his in game descisions. Either the PC can do it, can do it with a skill check or they can't. No other random checks, it drains your creativity as a player.
2) Ask him to be more flexible with printed story elements and how he interprets it with the party's stated actions. Again, this goes back to creativity and shared story telling.
These are requests from the players to make the game more fun for everyone. If the requests are ignored or shrugged off, then it seems he isn't really interested in becoming a better DM.
AndrewJO wrote:
Imaculata wrote:
Oh definitely. After all, DM's and players make the story together. By the sound of what the OP is describing however, I get the impression that it is the DM who is forcing a focus on combat, and he's not doing much in the way of storytelling.
Combat doesn't have to suspend roleplaying or storytelling, but it often does for some reason. I've seen a lot of online sessions (even professional ones) where whenever there was combat, the players just stopped roleplaying entirely, and so did the DM. It is as if the dice distract both the DM and the players from the story. But this also happens with actions, or anything that involves rolling dice. Players often seem eager to just say "I search the room for traps" rather than actually narrating what they do. And I wonder why that is.
Imaculata wrote:
AndrewJO wrote:
DMing is definitely a learned skill. Sure, your personality is going to play a role, but it's not the whole picture. If you know how to do a thing, the way you do it really doesn't matter so much. It seems to me that the DM in question just really doesn't understand the finer points of adjudication. Which makes sense, given their inexperience. Unfortunately, that's pretty much the DM's main role in the game. It takes time to learn how to adjudicate on the fly, and it's something every DM has to learn if they want any longevity.
What I'd do is point him to some resources. Iserith has some good ones in his signature. I felt I gained a new prospective from reading The Angry GM's articles that've helped me up my skills.
Just remember that you can try to help the guy, but if he doesn't want any (there's a DM/player at our AL games like this that I will absolutely not play with anymore, on either side of the screen) there's not much else you can do but not play in his games.
Danny_Montanny wrote:
You can train someone to have a better memory. You can train someone to organize better.
Neither of those two things make a great DM. Or necessarily a competent one.
sim-h wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Personality and natural talent helps at DMing because it's a social, cooperative game, but most of the nitty gritty skills of the role is learned in my view. My winning personality is only going to get me so far though when it comes to fairly adjudicating actions to help the group achieve the goals of play, for example. The DM has to be willing to learn and trying to pick up new skills all the time to be considered good in my book. I'm constantly examining and trying new things, keeping what works and throwing out what doesn't.
I learn new stuff all the time. When I play the campaign of a friend of mine, he often introduces things that I never thought of, or handles a ruling in a way that differs from how I would handle it. Watching other DM's can be very inspiring. And its fine to copy ideas from other DM's.
Personality might have more weight if you're the type that's like, "pffft... I don't need to get better, y'all just suck." There's plenty of people like that, after all. Possibly even this DM.
Regardless, a solid DM, one willing to hone their craft, needs to open themselves up to feedback and introspection. Without the capacity for those things they're fighting an uphill battle with both hands tied behind their back. And no legs. With a blindfold on... While all you can do is sit there and watch. Horrified, if not a little amused.
AndrewJO wrote:
OP, since your DM isn't responding to feedback well, nor he is improving his game, and I assume you don't want to kick him to the curb, I suggest a different tactic: Show him how it's done.
When it is your turn to DM (or whoever else in the group who wants to DM) run the same (or similar) scenario with different characters and show him via actual play how you would like things to be done. Make it as fun as possible, and not just for you but for him as well. Since he is new to the game, he may simply not know of better ways to run. DMing is very much a learned skill.
Listen to what he says. If he likes the game, encourage him to run his game in a similar way and offer to help him to do so. If he doesn't like the way you run things, then you will then learn that your and his play styles simply are incompatible and you two may never see eye to eye on what constitutes a fun game. It happens.
Either way, you will learn a lot. Not just about your DM, but about your own DMing as well.
Lastly, I am detecting that your friend likes the idea of being DM, but doesn't like (or doesn't want) to put in the effort required to make a campaign great. He probably has seen other DMs "make it look easy" and is very frustrated at his own game; thus why he doesn't handle feedback well. He needs to know that being a good DM is no different than being good at any other skill--> it takes time, practice and effort. Sure, some folks have natural talent, but some of the best DMs out there sucked when they first started. He, and you, will get better if a little effort is put into it.
Also keep in mind that he's not going to improve as a DM, if you only tell him what he's doing wrong. Be sure to also let him know when he's doing things right, and when you are having fun.