Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Grison Jan 26, 2015 9:23:46	*If you are one of my players, please do not read this. You'll just spoil your own fun...*   In the campaign I'm currently running, the adventurers have learned that a small, nearby "frontier" town has been completely taken over by a force of hobgoblins. (The populace had recently fled the town due to a different threat, and the hobgoblins took advantage of the opportunity to move in.) Naturally, the players want to save the day by re-taking the town, and I'm looking for advice/tips on how to handle this type of encounter in an interesting and managable way.   A few details: The town is fairly small -- perhaps two dozen central buildings, plus a wide swath of surrounding farms. It's been previously established that the town has at least rudimentary defenses, such as a wooden pallisade surrounding the town center (containing the lone inn, general store, workshops of various tradespeople, and so forth). It could conceivably have a small wooden tower or two (it hasn't come up), plus whatever added defenses the hobgoblins have been able to arrange in 3-5 days' time. The adventuring party is fairly large (7 players) and has just reached 5th level. The hobgoblins will need to contend with a diverse group: Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, and Wizard. DM Goals: Challenge the party using mostly hobgoblins, even though individual hobgoblins are quite weak compared to the 5th-level adventurers. I'm fine with giving the hobgoblins some "help" in the form of allies, but it should make sense in context. Hobgoblins are supposed to be good at tactics, defenses, etc., so I'm hoping to use the town's existing fortification and some new surprises to increase the difficulty and spice things up. I've never run a siege, fortress assault, or mass combat, so I'm mainly looking for ideas on how to make it exciting vs. tedious, and how to deal with a large force of defenders in a way that challenges the party without being impossible or just a massive dice-fest. Allies: There's a nearby force of Dwarven soldiers (specifics not yet defined) that could potentially be enlisted to help re-take the town, or they could also plausibly have other priorities at the moment. So depending on whether their presense or absence makes for a better encounter, it could go either way. (I'm sure the party will at least ask for their help.) The townsfolk themselves are simple tradepeople, farmers, etc. Some of them may be enthusiastic, but they are likely to be of little assistance. Perhaps having them "help" can create distractions or dilemmas for the party, though. In any case, I welcome any and all ideas, as well as references to existing advice that might exist in a long-buried thread...   Thank you!
#2 Nevvur Jan 26, 2015 10:30:02	How many hobgoblins are we talking here? They're a highly militaristic race, so I can imagine them reinforcing the town quite well, even given only a few days.    How many combats have you run since your party hit level 5? I recall when my players hit 5th, I anticipated the power spike and they still wrecked the first couple encounters like they were nothing.    Onto the suggestions...   The hobs have made their headquarters within the pallisade, of course, since its already the most fortified.  They placed traps in and around the buildings outside. They'll have lookouts posted 24/7 from the highest vantage point. They might even have constructed a crude tower if the native structures didn't suffice. Sneaking in, or even getting close to the town undetected should be very difficult (but not impossible) for the party.  Aerial support for the hobgoblins would be cool. Manticores come to mind, maybe even a trained wyvern mount for the hobgoblin leader.   Presumably you're not setting the PCs up for failure, so lets assume they achieve marginal success. How long then did you anticipate the siege lasting? An hour? Days? Or just as long as it takes? Briefly, how many short and long rests are the actors on both sides likely to get?    If the good guys don't wrap things up in a single go, and need to fall back to lick their wounds, think about a counterstrike by the hobgoblins. Seven party members is a lot, but probably not enough to surround the town and prevent exfiltration, unless they've got those dwarven allies to help with overwatch. Speaking of the dwarves, if the PCs do get their aid... I haven't done much large scale combat myself, but in the couple instances I did, I simply used contested d20's to determine which side made progress. You can probably find complex siege systems out there, but this is simple and won't slow down the narrative. Ex:   While the PC's are busy, the dwarves initiate their assault on the opposite side of town. Roll d20 once for both sides, give the hobgoblins a bonus for their defenses, say +4. Everytime the dwarves roll higher, this bonus is reduced by 1. If the dwarves roll a 20, reduce it by 2. The dwarves can only fail 6 times before they are effectively repelled. A natural 1 counts as two failures. Once the hobgoblin bonus is negated, the dwarves have succeeded with their role in the siege. Narrate whatever else they do without rolling, and move onto the main event, presumably the PCs facing down the hobgoblin leader. If the dwarves were repelled, the PCs will have another group of hobgoblins to deal with before reaching the leader.   ----   I hope any of these suggestions help you prepare, sounds like a fun session in the works!
#3 Grison Jan 27, 2015 11:12:57	Thank you; these are great suggestions! I will have think further about some of the questions you raise. In terms of the overall force, I think it needs to be in the neighborhood of 50-100 hobgoblins for it to be credible that they have taken over the whole town, and for them to have a large enough force to effectively defend the perimeter of the walled section. Given a force of that size, getting help from the Dwarves is probably a necessity, as otherwise the party would have no hope of success if swarmed.   I like the idea of the Dwarf/Hobgoblin battle being a generalized thing happening "on the other side of the town" and serving to divide the hobgoblin forces, leaving the party to focus on a more manageable objective and number of opponents.   I hadn't considered encounter length as something I could really plan for ahead of time. In my mind it depends entirely on how the group decides to approach it. I do like the idea of forcing the issue with a hobgoblin counterattack if the group decides to just sit back and wait them out. Aerial support sounds fun, too.   I think the trickiest part is going to be scaling the opponents to something tough but achievable. This will be the party's first encounter at 5th level. I know they'll have a very nice power boost compared to 4th, but I'm not yet confident with how well the typical CR-based calculations work with large parties, or with large numbers of weaker opponents. One nice aspect, though, is that the scenario lends itself to adding/subtracting hobgoblins on the fly if it's looking too easy or hard, based on how well the Dwarves are doing with their part.
(Reply to #3) Nevvur	Grison wrote:
#5 Grison Jan 27, 2015 14:27:43	Nevvur wrote:
(Reply to #5) Napolean_Warlord	Two things to plan for:   1) What happens if the party gets caught in the open and swarmed?  e.g. Hobgobs take an opportunity attack to surround a player.  The player will happily take the OO and then be sad as the Hobgobs mob him/them.   2) What happens when the wizard fireballs one of your set piece encounters?  Answer: let them do it and enjoy it.  Even if they get good coverage on three fireballs, they'll feel like heros but still be subject to getting mobbed, etc.   I've played in a couple mass battles with five 5th level characters in HotDQ and we took out fifty similar level critters before being swarmed.  This was a straight up fight with no fireballs or whatever the cleric third level mobile blade barrier spell is.  With those we could easily have wiped out 100 hobgoblin types as long as they didn't have good missle weapons.  If your players are optimized or tactical you may need 100+ hobgoblins to make it a good fight.  Start with a rush of 40 hobgoblins and then go cat and mouse throughout the town.
#7 GrrHero Jan 27, 2015 18:25:22	I've ran several large scale battles, and I have found that rounds in combat move fast if you group like 10 creatures together at a time. Say you have your 100 hobgoblins, instead of having each one with their own initiative(such makes combat extremely long and tedious) group them together by their station, job, assignment, or post in the town. Doing this will drastically decrease the amount of time you'll have trying to figure out who goes next. Good luck with the siege.
#8 BRJN Jan 27, 2015 18:57:13	- Bows and arrows from behind cover (the palisade) should be a given.  The hobgoblins will not make the mistake Aragorn made at Helms Deep. - The Dwarves could tunnel under the town wall and show up inside, IF the siege can take a while, or if the PCs agree to wait a few days before "beginning" their attack. - IIRC, hobgoblins like standing in a "turtle" formation, due to racial +AC power.  They should build a bottleneck for their enemies to have to frontal-attack, and be the cork in a bottle. - Can the PCs see at night (darkvision)?  Can the hobgoblins? - The inhabitants are good for information, even if they cannot fight. - Suppose somebody built a personal "escape bolt" in / out of town.  Will he tell the PCs about it?  What might he want in return? - Some of the hobgoblins should be deployed as scouts.  If the PCs see them and take them out, Team Hero can sneak up to town. - If a hobgoblin scout sees the PCs and sneaks away and is not noticed, then the alarm is raised and possibly a counter-attack launched on the PCs / their camp. - If you get into a mass combat, divide the hobgoblins into squads of 10 and have each squad's members all do the same thing.  (Move, Shoot arrows, whatever). - Against high-powered adventurers, try to have several different threats hit them about at once from different directions.  Arrows plus melee squad plus set a fire, for instance. - Goblin or bugbear hangers-on maybe?  Gives you some sneaks / spies / messengers and some toughies. - One big tough guy (ogre?) who is supposed to deal with meddling adventurer types - such as the Barb, Fighter, Paladin, and/or Ranger.  Max (legally) his AC so he can ignore most blows. - Does Team Hero have a reputation that might have reached the hobgoblin commander's ears?  If so, he might prepare a trap for them.  If not, he takes generic precautions. - What does the land near town look like?  Places to hide?  Rivers to swim?  Hills to place spies?  Swamps to move slowly but without being seen? - If you want the hobgoblin commander to be a recurring foe, make him a military competent who knows how to plan a battle (and when to retreat). - Was the "other threat" that made the townspeople evacuate their homes, something the hobgoblin commander can use against the PCs?  Or they use it against him? - Sprinkle the farm fields lightly with pit traps and other stuff that wastes PC time and effort and resources to clean up. - Wooden buildings tend to be susceptible to fire.  Trap a few outlying farm's buildings with lantern oil and a spark-maker.  Barns ARE full of highly-flammable hay, after all. - Pull the horses and cattle into town.  You deprive the farmers of their labor, they don't eat what you eat, and can eat them if the siege lasts long enough. - Definitely build and man (hobgob?) a watchtower on both sides of town.  Can be just a "forest fire lookout" if the PCs react fast enough, get more substantial over time. - If the battle goes badly for the hobgoblins, have their commander burn down the town and retreat with his core force.  This town was an opportunistic gain, not a pre-planned operation.  Cut his losses and come back later with enough force to defeat what the PCs threw at him.  (Also gives the PCs somebody to hold a justifiable grudge against.)
#9 Grison Jan 28, 2015 8:40:40	So many great ideas...  Thank you all!
#10 Timborama Jan 28, 2015 10:22:08	One other quick thing: Reskinning monsters. That Orc Chieftan from the MM is now a Hobgoblin Chieftan in this session. That NPC Cleric is now a Hobgoblin Cleric. That Bugbear might be a Hobgoblin "Brute"!   Adjust the "racial traits" if you want, too! Makes them all individuals, but makes them more...hobgoblinny. I recently did the same when I wanted the party to face a group of Bullwugs. There were 2 "regular by the book" Bullywugs, one using a Kuo-Toa's stats, an NPC Acolyte with Bullywug racial components (aka shaman), and one using a Lizardfolk's stats (aka, a Bullywug "Champion"). Or! Just send wave after wave of Hobgoblins at them. Sometimes, that can be fun! I've done this with Kobolds...so, so many Kobolds...   Also, may I suggest, you can RP the dwarves, but don't mindlessly start rolling for hobgoblins AND dwarves in combat scenarios. ESPECIALLY if the PCs aren't involved. Then you're just playing a game by yourself while 7 other people watch. If anything, do this ahead of time. I often do this because it's fun for me, and I still like the dice deciding certain things narratively. That way, when we get to that point, I already know exactly what happens! And no ones time is wasted because I enjoy it (otherwise, I'd just narrate it sans dice with whatever "felt right"), and it's already taken care of.
#11 Nevvur Jan 28, 2015 11:36:51	Good suggestion on the reskinning thing, I do that quite a lot myself.   Partial disagreement on rolling for the dwarves though. I make all rolls visible to the players at my table. Even if the PCs weren't involved, I would prefer the players saw the results as they developed. It still ought to be narrated somehow. Maybe the PCs hear the dwarves' battle cries, cheering, or call for retreat from the far side of the pallisade. Maybe the dwarves send a runner to communicate their situation to the party.    But I see no practical difference between rolling their side of the conflict ahead of time and simply writing a script -- the end result is you have a predetermined outcome. There's nothing wrong with this, or to simply "narrate it sans dice with whatever felt right," as you said. I speak only of a personal preference to keep the dice alive and present for a scenario like this.