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#1 DisplacerLizard Oct 13, 2014 20:48:54	I wanted to seek advice on my 5th edition starter box adventure group. Here's a bit of background: I admit I am fairly inexperienced at GMing (about 3 years). I've gone through phases where I used to help the PCs to a point where they would never die, but in the last year I've become completely hands off: if that's what you want then here comes the consequences. My previous campaign was tomb of horrors in 4th edition where almost all of the party died in part one. I added a way for them to be resurrected, but eventually I got really burnt out of the grind of each session being one combat encounter in one room so we stopped sometime in part 2. When 5th came out I was excited to get everyone back together. *Spoiler alert on the starter adventure below (if that matters):* Part one in the goblin held cave. Group takes out goblins on the outside of cave then go inside. They do not approach with stealth so goblin on the bridge announces them which leads to the water trap and a handful of goblins. They got pretty banged up but eventually won that encounter. Then they decided to do a full rest outside. I asked them multiple times: so you are going to rest? I'm thinking: the rest of the cave would figure out what is going on. So I decide if I were Glarg I would setup an ambush. The ambush was just devestating: 3 PCs of five are killed. Those that died created new characters and we picked back up in phendalin where the new group banded together to take on the redbrands. They go in clear out some rooms, but again decide to rest where the prisoners were held. Our next session I am faced with the same predicament: two bug bears and four redbrands are left (I decided the mage bounced during their sleep). So I am expecting more death which might explain why I've put off our next session for a couple of months now. Am I being too stubborn? Should I blatently tell them they shouldn't rest? I suspect some of this was our experience with ToH where every room took everything they had and they would always rest before moving on. Stratagies would be appreciated!
#2 onceMoreIntoBreech Oct 13, 2014 21:18:31	The question I have is: did you tell the players that the bad guys keep moving when the party rests? Asking them what they want to do isn't the same as making sure you're all on the same page.
#3 DisplacerLizard Oct 13, 2014 21:32:36	onceMoreIntoBreech wrote:
#4 CCS Oct 14, 2014 1:07:56	Yes, tell them that them resting doesn't pause the entire dungeon.... Once they set things in motion by attacking a group in its own home napping becomes a really bad idea.
#5 abs1nth Oct 14, 2014 3:54:02	What the other people basically said. It seems to me like the party isn't aware of the "gameplay" effect their resting habits have on the game so I would just explain to them once at the start of the session maybe using cragmaw's hideout as an example how resting may not have been a good idea and what events that set in motion.
#6 Theros Oct 14, 2014 4:07:20	You might want to put the kid gloves back on until everyone (including yourself) get the hang of 5e. I know I had to tone down my games and take frequent time outs for me and players to analyze the adventure and game. It may be better if you make the enemies a bit easier rather than having the player’s corpse crawl their way through the module. Get them used to the game mechanics and fundamentals, then you can crank up the heat.
#7 Timborama Oct 14, 2014 7:13:15	Since this isn't a video game, it's fine to do what you did. Though I'd maybe make it more clear to the PCs before/during/after resting. Either with a single patrol (to remind them they don't have homefield advantage, here!) or saying when they get to the final room that it looks like it had been fortified recently, and they were obviously in defensive positions waiting for them. You were trying to be clear at the "before" part, asking if they were going to rest a few times. You did it right (though maybe could have been better in doing so). Especially since it was a LONG rest, not a short one! Eight hours is a longass time! Either they will pick up on this, or after the third time this happens (especially if more people die), you may want to mention after that session "Uh, hey guys, so just so you know, taking a long rest in a dungeon is probably what led to them being so prepared, thus having Jimmy John and Johnny Jim dying..." The world is dynamic, so should DnD be. Good call on the Mage leaving, too. To paraphrase Abed from Community: "I operate under rules. Put too much weight on a weak bridge? It breaks. And if you stand outside of the evil necromancer's lair for 10 minutes arguing who is going to kill him? He's not going to stick around to let you." But! All that being said, the main question is: Is everyone having fun? Sometimes character death is tragic and traumatic for players. Other times it's...kinda funny. Other times it's sorta "Oh, he died? Meh, I've got a back-up concept. I'll flesh him out when we get back to town." It doesn't seem like anyone is too upset, but it doesn't hurt to ask before people start holding it against you!
#8 Touc Oct 14, 2014 9:46:38	I don't fudge my rolls or hold back with players to create a fiction that they're immune to bad decisions. There's a DM technique that all players should be familiar with, and if they're not, they'll catch on. *"Are you really sure you want to do that?"* These magical words signal to players that the DM is advising them it's a bad idea but if they want to go ahead with it, so be it. Resting at the doorstep of an alerted enemy compound is a bad idea. My players also rested in the Redbrand hideout. Show Which led to the bad guys discovering corpses of their friends which led to the leader of the Redbrands mustering every troop he had and corning the party in the room they proposed to rest in. This was a really close battle that could have resulted in multiple character deaths had the party not went out in the wilderness on other quests and achieved a higher level (3) than this area was designed (2). But, I made sure this is what they wanted and we let the dice fall as they may. The party survived an epic battle.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

DisplacerLizard

Oct 13, 2014 20:48:54

I wanted to seek advice on my 5th edition starter box adventure group. Here's a bit of background:

I admit I am fairly inexperienced at GMing (about 3 years). I've gone through phases where I used to help the PCs to a point where they would never die, but in the last year I've become completely hands off: if that's what you want then here comes the consequences. My previous campaign was tomb of horrors in 4th edition where almost all of the party died in part one. I added a way for them to be resurrected, but eventually I got really burnt out of the grind of each session being one combat encounter in one room so we stopped sometime in part 2. When 5th came out I was excited to get everyone back together.

Spoiler alert on the starter adventure below (if that matters):

Part one in the goblin held cave. Group takes out goblins on the outside of cave then go inside. They do not approach with stealth so goblin on the bridge announces them which leads to the water trap and a handful of goblins. They got pretty banged up but eventually won that encounter. Then they decided to do a full rest outside. I asked them multiple times: so you are going to rest? I'm thinking: the rest of the cave would figure out what is going on. So I decide if I were Glarg I would setup an ambush. The ambush was just devestating: 3 PCs of five are killed.

Those that died created new characters and we picked back up in phendalin where the new group banded together to take on the redbrands. They go in clear out some rooms, but again decide to rest where the prisoners were held. Our next session I am faced with the same predicament: two bug bears and four redbrands are left (I decided the mage bounced during their sleep). So I am expecting more death which might explain why I've put off our next session for a couple of months now. Am I being too stubborn? Should I blatently tell them they shouldn't rest? I suspect some of this was our experience with ToH where every room took everything they had and they would always rest before moving on. Stratagies would be appreciated!

onceMoreIntoBreech

Oct 13, 2014 21:18:31

The question I have is: did you tell the players that the bad guys keep moving when the party rests?

Asking them what they want to do isn't the same as making sure you're all on the same page.

DisplacerLizard

Oct 13, 2014 21:32:36

onceMoreIntoBreech wrote:

CCS

Oct 14, 2014 1:07:56

Yes, tell them that them resting doesn't pause the entire dungeon.... Once they set things in motion by attacking a group in its own home napping becomes a really bad idea.

abs1nth

Oct 14, 2014 3:54:02

What the other people basically said. It seems to me like the party isn't aware of the "gameplay" effect their resting habits have on the game so I would just explain to them once at the start of the session maybe using cragmaw's hideout as an example how resting may not have been a good idea and what events that set in motion.

Theros

Oct 14, 2014 4:07:20

You might want to put the kid gloves back on until everyone (including yourself) get the hang of 5e. I know I had to tone down my games and take frequent time outs for me and players to analyze the adventure and game.

It may be better if you make the enemies a bit easier rather than having the player’s corpse crawl their way through the module.

Get them used to the game mechanics and fundamentals, then you can crank up the heat.

Timborama

Oct 14, 2014 7:13:15

Since this isn't a video game, it's fine to do what you did. Though I'd maybe make it more clear to the PCs before/during/after resting. Either with a single patrol (to remind them they don't have homefield advantage, here!) or saying when they get to the final room that it looks like it had been fortified recently, and they were obviously in defensive positions waiting for them. You were trying to be clear at the "before" part, asking if they were going to rest a few times.

You did it right (though maybe could have been better in doing so). Especially since it was a LONG rest, not a short one! Eight hours is a longass time! Either they will pick up on this, or after the third time this happens (especially if more people die), you may want to mention after that session "Uh, hey guys, so just so you know, taking a long rest in a dungeon is probably what led to them being so prepared, thus having Jimmy John and Johnny Jim dying..." The world is dynamic, so should DnD be.

Good call on the Mage leaving, too. To paraphrase Abed from Community: "I operate under rules. Put too much weight on a weak bridge? It breaks. And if you stand outside of the evil necromancer's lair for 10 minutes arguing who is going to kill him? He's not going to stick around to let you."

But! All that being said, the main question is: Is everyone having fun? Sometimes character death is tragic and traumatic for players. Other times it's...kinda funny. Other times it's sorta "Oh, he died? Meh, I've got a back-up concept. I'll flesh him out when we get back to town." It doesn't seem like anyone is too upset, but it doesn't hurt to ask before people start holding it against you!

Touc

Oct 14, 2014 9:46:38

I don't fudge my rolls or hold back with players to create a fiction that they're immune to bad decisions. There's a DM technique that all players should be familiar with, and if they're not, they'll catch on. "Are you really sure you want to do that?" These magical words signal to players that the DM is advising them it's a bad idea but if they want to go ahead with it, so be it. Resting at the doorstep of an alerted enemy compound is a bad idea. My players also rested in the Redbrand hideout.

Show

Which led to the bad guys discovering corpses of their friends which led to the leader of the Redbrands mustering every troop he had and corning the party in the room they proposed to rest in. This was a really close battle that could have resulted in multiple character deaths had the party not went out in the wilderness on other quests and achieved a higher level (3) than this area was designed (2). But, I made sure this is what they wanted and we let the dice fall as they may. The party survived an epic battle.