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| #1The_Vaped_BatmanJan 31, 2015 5:20:24 | Here's my dilema, was doing a homebrew quest the other night and encountered some problems that really nerfed the fun level a lot for me (as the DM) and the other players. Our Barbarian does massive amounts of damage and it is almost impossible to use the mathematic formula in the DM guide to determine battle difficulties. All the PC's are level 7 and I would use multiple lower level enemies to create hard and even sometimes deadly encounters and our Barbarian would stroll through them. On his turn he would kill three enemies with his three attacks (his normal attack, his 'extra attack' through his class, and his bonues attack either through his Great Weapon Master feat or his Frenzy.) This easy killing for him seriously nerfs the difficulty level due to the fact that he's turning the battle from a deadly seven enemy fight to a easy four enemy fight all in one turn. I know with Great Weapon Master he's supposed to be doing a lot more damage but we still feel his character is broken somehow but we can't find anything. Anyone else finding this problem the same? |
| #2AaronOfBarbariaJan 31, 2015 6:23:32 | I think your problem is that your expectation of how combat challenges are meant to play out does not match with the way that combat challenges are designed to play out.
Use enemies that your Barbarian needs a natural roll of 11 or higher to hit and you'll see a steep drop in the influence Great Weapon Master has on his damage.
Use days with multiple encounters that have to be dealt with so that frenzy becomes less easy to ignore the massive downside of - the fatigue level it causes.
Use challenges that don't center entirely around killing the "bad guys" before they kill you, because that is what the barbarian class is best at since, especially as a berserker, all its class features serve to either make the character kill things faster or be harder to kill. |
| #3bawylieJan 31, 2015 9:06:05 | Also remember that encounter math is only 1/3rd of encounter design. The other thirds are scenario & strategy.
Ex. 2 goblin archers in a 10x10' room are no challenge to anyone.
2 goblin archers inside a 40' stone tower firing from murder holes is a totally different problem.
As is 2 gob archers firing from behind a barricade at players who have to step only on safe logs in a swamp or risk waking a hydra, if they disturb the water.
Your barbarian isn't OP. Your encounters are just incomplete. The good news is that you can fix them p easily. |
| #4TheNovaLordJan 31, 2015 10:18:45 | The levels of exhaustion do mount up as well I do like the way the barbarian works
You could just not allow that feat. How does The player feel The rest of the group feel? |
| #5Beldak_SerpenthelmJan 31, 2015 10:58:38 | If the only encounters in the game are "deal X amount of damage to Team NPC," then the PC who deals the most damage will appear OP compared to the other PCs.
Maybe mix up the NPC motivations? If they have goal beyond "deal Y amount of damage to Team PC," then their encounters with the PCs won't go in the direction that you don't like. |
| #6Macv12Jan 31, 2015 14:09:36 | This is kind of like saying "my campaign is all about roughing it in the wilderness while tracking monsters; any time the players aren't RPing in town they're out making Survival checks for food and finding tracks. But the Ranger is so OP! How do I challenge them?" You're catering directly to what they do better than any other class. |
| #7guachiJan 31, 2015 14:30:13 |
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| #8BRJNJan 31, 2015 16:47:18 | Somewhere around here is another 'Help - the Barbarian blows away my encounters" thread. There is more good advice there.
Do build some encounters that play into the Barb's strengths. Let him feel cool and powerful from time to time. Mix in encounters that he will have a hard time with: - swarm him with minions (1 HP each). You get more per encounter, so he can't kill them all at once. - Build an enemy with Resist(weapons). He and the Barb can fight an equal contest. - Build a Barb (level N-1) who wants to fight the Barb personally for bragging rights. When this guy loses, he becomes a recurring rival (and sometimes ally). - Drowning / suffocation don't use HP to harm the character. Make him walk the gangplank while his friends are tied up nearby - this is Beat the Clock. - Spells don't care about the rage-tied Resist either (I think). Send a magic-user to pepper him from a distance. - Jump him in his room while asleep. (This can be a petty thief or an Assassin.) - The Battle of Helms Deep lasts all night and runs everybody out of "recharge when you Rest" abilities - including Rage. (also indicated in posts above) - A band of archer snipers in a wood across a river, with orders to delay him / them from travelling along the highway: worst possible tactical disadvantage - A gargoyle at the end of a bridge his group MUST cross - High-level magic-user (high enough to be immune to non-magical attacks) appears and warns the PCs to back off his interests, or he will destroy them. He can follow through later. - They face off against somebody like a Duke, the PCs can kill but would be fools to actually do it. Or a police officer. - Multiple threats at once, so the Barb can handle one while the other PCs have something to worry about, too. - Traps - Terrain conditions that hurt the PCs - but cannot be "solved" by swinging a greatsword at it (caltrops). - Something that will allow another PC to shine and the Barb can be a supporting member of the cast for him. - Weather gets everybody; can't just duck behind the Barb to hide from cold wet rain. - Hobgoblins (or whoever has the racial power) get +AC if standing in phalanx formation. If the Barb cannot land a hit, that foe ties him down while other important stuff happens. - Kobolds can flee down a Small-sized passage that doesn't bother them ... or halflings ... but HE has to squeeze.
Don't start building a series of "nerf-the-Barb" encounters, though. That's no fun for him - or the other PCs, once they figure it out: start to shine and get a DM-target painted on your back.
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| #9PsikerlordJan 31, 2015 17:59:22 |
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| (Reply to #9)bawylie |
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| #11PsikerlordFeb 01, 2015 2:58:53 |
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| #12Beldak_SerpenthelmFeb 01, 2015 11:11:58 |
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| #13iserithFeb 01, 2015 6:02:21 | For example, how would your barbarian deal with a situation like this? I AM THE LIZARD KING!
His extra damage might be useful, but it likely won't be the thing that wins the day. |
| #14PsikerlordFeb 01, 2015 13:23:26 | I get there are different pillars. Thing is, in my experience, most players rate combat - and in particular doing damage - as one of (if not the most) important parts of their PC. With 5e in particular - due to bounded accuracy and esp if you use flanking - AC is not too important, so damage and HP become primary considerations. So if the barb is doing 60 damage in a round at level 5, and the rest of the party is doing less than half of that... it is often cold comfort to point to the other pillars and say, but gee when we have to make a persuasion roll my PC will really shine! I realise this is a generalisation and wont apply to some players and similarly some heavy RP campaigns, but I suspect not the majority, and especially not beginner tables.
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| #15Devils-AdvocateFeb 01, 2015 13:52:07 | lPlayers only treat combat as the most important pillar when the DM makes it the most important pillar. And to be fair, most premade adventures do put combat at the forefront of the game. But if you present scenarios where the players' goal is something other than "deal X damage before losing Y hit points", the obstacle is something other than a monster, and/or the dramatic question is something other than "will the PCs win the fight?", your players will begin to realize that high damage and HP are only of any use in a very limited subset of scenarios they typically encounter. |
| #16Beldak_SerpenthelmFeb 01, 2015 14:18:19 |
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| (Reply to #11)Coredump00 |
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| #18PsikerlordFeb 02, 2015 13:33:02 |
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| (Reply to #18)Coredump00 |
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