Breaking Game Balance - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SillyMind Oct 11, 2014 9:31:12	Hi there community, LONNNNNNNNNG time lurker and first time poster. I have a question for you as I'm now playing 5th edition for the first time with a group of 6 friends. I've been playing D&D for more than 15 years now, started with 3rd edition, went 3.5 then Pathfinder, own some of 4th edition books but didn't play it for long and now returning to the brand. My question is simple: how do you break game balance? I've always played story-based campaign with balanced encounters and now I want to distance myself from it using the new ''bounded accuracy'' to it fullest. What I mean is that I want my players to feel like they are part of a world that is not tailored to their level, with really trivial encounters and some unbeatable ones. I'm trying to do this but my years of experience make me always think on the balanced side. How do you present really easy encounters to your players, some with unbeatable foes and in what proportion? Thanks a lot guys!
#2 Yunru Oct 11, 2014 10:05:48	It's really simple with 5e: Numbers. Due to bounded accuracy, low level things can hit high level things. If said high level things don't have, say, immunity to non-magical damage, prepare to be Zerg rushed. However you don't really want to break balance. A CR 12 creature is balanced, it's just balanced for a party of ~lvl 12 players. Simpliest answer: Put creatures in your world (both in type and number) that you feel fit the setting, rather than the party power.
#3 Nevvur Oct 11, 2014 14:06:26	I wouldn't worry about putting a limit on trivial encounters, as long as they don't bog down the overall game. As for presenting them, you could describe the enemies as seeming nervous, have some of them run away at the start of combat, make bad tactical decisions... For 'unbeatable' opponents, I wouldn't toss them into the mix more than once every 3 sessions/10 encounters, and even that might be too much. When you do, make doubly certain the PCs understand the immense danger they are in. Perhaps an NPC accompanies them and suggests fleeing, or bring multiple NPCs you can throw into the grinder to demonstrate its power. Maybe there's already a corpse or ten around the enemy, bodies of an opponent type that recently gave the party a good challenge. Be warned, your PCs might have a dungeon clearing mentality and assume you want them to engage, no matter how well you telegraph the danger.
#4 Yunru Oct 11, 2014 14:22:56	Nevvur wrote:
#5 Dreamstryder Oct 12, 2014 22:45:34	As said, populate your world according to feel, not party power. You could also populate by area level, which takes a little load off telegraphing and gives the party some indication and control over how much peril they put themselves in. In other words, it doesn't matter what level the party is; the possibility of ecnountering more dangerous and horrible monsters increase as they go down (or up) floors, or venture farther and farther from town. Some big creatures have influence on the terrain around their lair, and these signs or other landmarks could be another telegraph to the players that "You are approaching something unusual and possibly perilous if you continue in this direction". You can experiment how big the increase or decrease the general level between neighboring areas is. You can drop hints when the level jump is greater than normal, just as you'd do for stronger monsters otherwise, or not. Perhaps a secret treasure chamber is said to exist in a dungeon, hidden and with a terrible guardian that preys on the current squatters of the ruin. This method makes varying levels part of the PCs' adventure strategy instead of relying on telegraphing quite so often. Of course, exceptions in power level can exist in any area.
#6 Keendk Oct 13, 2014 9:18:30	Be open and honest with your players before the campaign. Tell them straight up: I'm not going to balance anything at all, I won't even look at mosnter stats before I populate the world with them. If you decide to charge everything, there's a pretty good chance you might die. Then actually DO that, don't look at monster stats, just go with the flow and see what happens. Don't think in ratios of one or the other, it's meaningless as the players will be in a mindset that might circumvent many combat encounters anyway and turn them in to RP challanges.
#7 Touc Oct 14, 2014 11:15:19	For DM design, I'd be leery of "unbeatable" monsters as a preset encounter as part of your level-appropriate hook unless the party has a chance to role-play or escape. There's an understanding between players and DMs that we're going to have fun because the hook is reasonably balanced, and only if we create our own problems (wandering off into the deep wilderness where the random encounter table has cylcopses and red dragons) should we expect to reap what we sow. Players surprised by an "unbeatable encounter" probably will not retreat until you've mowed down one or two, and then they'll cry foul, that you've broken the unspoken code of keep it balanced unless we make the call to descend to level 2 of the dungeon when we're having problems surviving the less deadly level 1. If the preset is obvious (the king and his royal guard), you're fine. They had a reasonable chance to role play it and chose to try to stab the king. If it's not (the mouthy kobold guard who is actually a red dragon in disguise that attacks if the party doesn't bow to him), you've gone too far. The AD&D Ruins of Adventure module (which I've used as a framework for a new campaign), is a good example of sandbox areas with relative danger. Yes, you can go to the graveyard but at 1st level you know there's probably a vampire and mounting army of the dead. You've provided adequate warning without artificially "balancing" the area. It will be "balanced" better when they hit 5th level or so. My example for the Slums and Graveyard of the Ruins, for making an unbeatable encounter less difficult through other encounters: Show The Chief in the Slums has a base of operations with numerous guards. A straight assault at 1st level is probably suicide, but the party can whittle down his troops and support by taking out his forces during forays into the slums. Each success they have will weaken his compound as troops abandon him, or less support comes from the outlying tribes, eventually making an assault more feasible. The Vampire (a CR13 in an adventure meant for 6th level) is a party-killer, but he is tied to the graveyard surrounding his lair. Each victory the party has over certain elements of that graveyard weakens him in some way (removes a legendary ability and so on), and this should be made obvious (the sky lightens ever so slightly above the ensorcelled thunderclouds of the graveyard with each undead sent back to rest).
(Reply to #6) Clutchbone	Keendk wrote:
#9 BW0222 Oct 14, 2014 14:21:08	SillyMind wrote:
#10 Coredump00 Oct 14, 2014 17:58:09	I once had two ogres come into a campsite of low level characters. They killed one of the horses and demanded the characters cook for them. The ended up eating the horse and leaving a few hours later. (They backhanded one of the characters, but no real attacks) As long as the characters didn't attack, they made it out fine. (well, missing a horse and a few hit points) IIRC, the Ogres even dropped a hint that proved useful later on. OTOH, since there wasn't too much for the player to do during this encounter, I tried to make sure it didn't last too long. (you should have heard the player discussions..... 'attack' 'run' 'just cook' etc etc...
(Reply to #10) SillyMind	Thanks for the good advices. I will summarize my 2 first sessions. The group is as follow: Mountain dwarf Fighter Tiefling warlock Wood elf bard Half-orc fighter Lightfoot halfling rogue Silver dragonborn paladin What I did was let the party hear rumors of unnatural lights appearing at night near a cabin in a giant spider infested forest. They started level 1 and I had them fight against a giant spider and a regular one (easy-medium encounter) and then they found the cabin and fought 3 cultists and an imp (medium-hard encounter). My players decided to take a long rest in the cabin even if I stressed that the forest was full of man-eating giant spiders and I chose to have them attacked. I ruled that the sound of fighting and the fire they lit should have attracted many spiders so I started with one trying to crawl inside the cabin. The rogue spotted it and woke the party, but him and the paladin where enough to dispatch the beast. After that they spotted many more spiders coming their way and ran. I had a small chase in which the paladin fell unconscious, the bard had to heal him and the party reached the town. After that, the party were given the task to investigate the disappearance of children near the goblin's grove and journeyed there. They were ambushed by 6 bandits (medium encounter) and took an undisturbed long rest. The day after, they were again ambushed by 4 goblins and a goblin boss (deadly encounter), they succeeded but the goblin boss escaped. At that point, the party decided to take a short rest. I decided that it was careless and that the boss would have enough time to find another patrol and come back so they were attacked by 2 bugbears, the boss and 4 goblins (''ludicrous'' even if they were now level 2). They decided to run and we ended our session there. The players told me that they felt like they were weak but one of them came to the conclusion that they had to be more serious and more careful so I think my plan is working, they are changing their perspective. So, do you think I'm beeing too harsh?
#12 Nevvur Oct 19, 2014 10:59:39	Sounds like you're doing a great job so far, but I'd throw them a string of easy-medium encounters til they hit level 3. Everyone will have their first archetype power and feel a little less whimpy. Consider the ebb and flow of video game encounters, if you play them much... You'll see this pop up frequently regardless of genre. Easy, easy, medium, hard, easy, medium, medium, deadly is a common flow, and I think I recall reading a 'typical adventuring day' is supposed to be 6-8 encounters with one short rest (fewer encounters at lower levels). Obviously you don't stick to the same formula every session, and not every encounter should involve combat, but the progression builds tension and drama. Just be wary of funneling them into that deadly encounter if they've used most of their resources already... i.e. in the example ebb-flow, don't have the deadly encounter burst onto the scene immediately after the last medium.
#13 sleypy Oct 19, 2014 13:23:26	Sounds like you weren't being overly harsh if they had a chance to runaway. Seems like you made it clear that their goal was to survive not kill everything. It might be worthwhile to have them face the spiders in the future just to so they can see their progress. As a side note, tools that lets you create a balance encounter pretty are the same tools you need to create an unbalanced. Just use the rules as a measuring stick instead of a points buy.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

SillyMind

Oct 11, 2014 9:31:12

Hi there community, LONNNNNNNNNG time lurker and first time poster.

I have a question for you as I'm now playing 5th edition for the first time with a group of 6 friends.

I've been playing D&D for more than 15 years now, started with 3rd edition, went 3.5 then Pathfinder, own some of 4th edition books but didn't play it for long and now returning to the brand.

My question is simple: how do you break game balance? I've always played story-based campaign with balanced encounters and now I want to distance myself from it using the new ''bounded accuracy'' to it fullest. What I mean is that I want my players to feel like they are part of a world that is not tailored to their level, with really trivial encounters and some unbeatable ones. I'm trying to do this but my years of experience make me always think on the balanced side.

How do you present really easy encounters to your players, some with unbeatable foes and in what proportion?

Thanks a lot guys!

Yunru

Oct 11, 2014 10:05:48

It's really simple with 5e: Numbers.

Due to bounded accuracy, low level things can hit high level things. If said high level things don't have, say, immunity to non-magical damage, prepare to be Zerg rushed.

However you don't really want to break balance. A CR 12 creature is balanced, it's just balanced for a party of ~lvl 12 players.

Simpliest answer: Put creatures in your world (both in type and number) that you feel fit the setting, rather than the party power.

Nevvur

Oct 11, 2014 14:06:26

I wouldn't worry about putting a limit on trivial encounters, as long as they don't bog down the overall game. As for presenting them, you could describe the enemies as seeming nervous, have some of them run away at the start of combat, make bad tactical decisions...

For 'unbeatable' opponents, I wouldn't toss them into the mix more than once every 3 sessions/10 encounters, and even that might be too much. When you do, make doubly certain the PCs understand the immense danger they are in. Perhaps an NPC accompanies them and suggests fleeing, or bring multiple NPCs you can throw into the grinder to demonstrate its power. Maybe there's already a corpse or ten around the enemy, bodies of an opponent type that recently gave the party a good challenge. Be warned, your PCs might have a dungeon clearing mentality and assume you want them to engage, no matter how well you telegraph the danger.

Yunru

Oct 11, 2014 14:22:56

Nevvur wrote:

Dreamstryder

Oct 12, 2014 22:45:34

As said, populate your world according to feel, not party power.

You could also populate by area level, which takes a little load off telegraphing and gives the party some indication and control over how much peril they put themselves in. In other words, it doesn't matter what level the party is; the possibility of ecnountering more dangerous and horrible monsters increase as they go down (or up) floors, or venture farther and farther from town. Some big creatures have influence on the terrain around their lair, and these signs or other landmarks could be another telegraph to the players that "You are approaching something unusual and possibly perilous if you continue in this direction".

You can experiment how big the increase or decrease the general level between neighboring areas is. You can drop hints when the level jump is greater than normal, just as you'd do for stronger monsters otherwise, or not. Perhaps a secret treasure chamber is said to exist in a dungeon, hidden and with a terrible guardian that preys on the current squatters of the ruin.

This method makes varying levels part of the PCs' adventure strategy instead of relying on telegraphing quite so often. Of course, exceptions in power level can exist in any area.

Keendk

Oct 13, 2014 9:18:30

Be open and honest with your players before the campaign.

Tell them straight up: I'm not going to balance anything at all, I won't even look at mosnter stats before I populate the world with them. If you decide to charge everything, there's a pretty good chance you might die.

Then actually DO that, don't look at monster stats, just go with the flow and see what happens. Don't think in ratios of one or the other, it's meaningless as the players will be in a mindset that might circumvent many combat encounters anyway and turn them in to RP challanges.

Touc

Oct 14, 2014 11:15:19

For DM design, I'd be leery of "unbeatable" monsters as a preset encounter as part of your level-appropriate hook unless the party has a chance to role-play or escape. There's an understanding between players and DMs that we're going to have fun because the hook is reasonably balanced, and only if we create our own problems (wandering off into the deep wilderness where the random encounter table has cylcopses and red dragons) should we expect to reap what we sow. Players surprised by an "unbeatable encounter" probably will not retreat until you've mowed down one or two, and then they'll cry foul, that you've broken the unspoken code of keep it balanced unless we make the call to descend to level 2 of the dungeon when we're having problems surviving the less deadly level 1. If the preset is obvious (the king and his royal guard), you're fine. They had a reasonable chance to role play it and chose to try to stab the king. If it's not (the mouthy kobold guard who is actually a red dragon in disguise that attacks if the party doesn't bow to him), you've gone too far.

The AD&D Ruins of Adventure module (which I've used as a framework for a new campaign), is a good example of sandbox areas with relative danger. Yes, you can go to the graveyard but at 1st level you know there's probably a vampire and mounting army of the dead. You've provided adequate warning without artificially "balancing" the area. It will be "balanced" better when they hit 5th level or so.

My example for the Slums and Graveyard of the Ruins, for making an unbeatable encounter less difficult through other encounters:

Show

The Chief in the Slums has a base of operations with numerous guards. A straight assault at 1st level is probably suicide, but the party can whittle down his troops and support by taking out his forces during forays into the slums. Each success they have will weaken his compound as troops abandon him, or less support comes from the outlying tribes, eventually making an assault more feasible. The Vampire (a CR13 in an adventure meant for 6th level) is a party-killer, but he is tied to the graveyard surrounding his lair. Each victory the party has over certain elements of that graveyard weakens him in some way (removes a legendary ability and so on), and this should be made obvious (the sky lightens ever so slightly above the ensorcelled thunderclouds of the graveyard with each undead sent back to rest).

(Reply to #6)

Clutchbone

Keendk wrote:

BW0222

Oct 14, 2014 14:21:08

SillyMind wrote:

#10

Coredump00

Oct 14, 2014 17:58:09

I once had two ogres come into a campsite of low level characters. They killed one of the horses and demanded the characters cook for them. The ended up eating the horse and leaving a few hours later. (They backhanded one of the characters, but no real attacks) As long as the characters didn't attack, they made it out fine. (well, missing a horse and a few hit points) IIRC, the Ogres even dropped a hint that proved useful later on.

OTOH, since there wasn't too much for the player to *do* during this encounter, I tried to make sure it didn't last too long. (you should have heard the player discussions..... 'attack' 'run' 'just cook' etc etc...

(Reply to #10)

SillyMind

Thanks for the good advices.

I will summarize my 2 first sessions.

The group is as follow:

Mountain dwarf Fighter
Tiefling warlock
Wood elf bard
Half-orc fighter
Lightfoot halfling rogue
Silver dragonborn paladin

What I did was let the party hear rumors of unnatural lights appearing at night near a cabin in a giant spider infested forest. They started level 1 and I had them fight against a giant spider and a regular one (easy-medium encounter) and then they found the cabin and fought 3 cultists and an imp (medium-hard encounter).

My players decided to take a long rest in the cabin even if I stressed that the forest was full of man-eating giant spiders and I chose to have them attacked. I ruled that the sound of fighting and the fire they lit should have attracted many spiders so I started with one trying to crawl inside the cabin. The rogue spotted it and woke the party, but him and the paladin where enough to dispatch the beast. After that they spotted many more spiders coming their way and ran. I had a small chase in which the paladin fell unconscious, the bard had to heal him and the party reached the town.

After that, the party were given the task to investigate the disappearance of children near the goblin's grove and journeyed there. They were ambushed by 6 bandits (medium encounter) and took an undisturbed long rest. The day after, they were again ambushed by 4 goblins and a goblin boss (deadly encounter), they succeeded but the goblin boss escaped. At that point, the party decided to take a short rest. I decided that it was careless and that the boss would have enough time to find another patrol and come back so they were attacked by 2 bugbears, the boss and 4 goblins (''ludicrous'' even if they were now level 2). They decided to run and we ended our session there.

The players told me that they felt like they were weak but one of them came to the conclusion that they had to be more serious and more careful so I think my plan is working, they are changing their perspective.

So, do you think I'm beeing too harsh?

#12

Nevvur

Oct 19, 2014 10:59:39

Sounds like you're doing a great job so far, but I'd throw them a string of easy-medium encounters til they hit level 3. Everyone will have their first archetype power and feel a little less whimpy.

Consider the ebb and flow of video game encounters, if you play them much... You'll see this pop up frequently regardless of genre. Easy, easy, medium, hard, easy, medium, medium, deadly is a common flow, and I think I recall reading a 'typical adventuring day' is supposed to be 6-8 encounters with one short rest (fewer encounters at lower levels). Obviously you don't stick to the same formula every session, and not every encounter should involve combat, but the progression builds tension and drama. Just be wary of funneling them into that deadly encounter if they've used most of their resources already... i.e. in the example ebb-flow, don't have the deadly encounter burst onto the scene immediately after the last medium.

#13

sleypy

Oct 19, 2014 13:23:26

Sounds like you weren't being overly harsh if they had a chance to runaway. Seems like you made it clear that their goal was to survive not kill everything. It might be worthwhile to have them face the spiders in the future just to so they can see their progress.

As a side note, tools that lets you create a balance encounter pretty are the same tools you need to create an unbalanced. Just use the rules as a measuring stick instead of a points buy.