Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mistwell Aug 22, 2014 13:12:02	I've been playtesting for about 13 months, and excited to use the new Combat Encounter guidelines in the DM Basic PDF.   But I've run into a minor issue, and would like some advice from some other DMs out there.  And as I am sure others have questions about this somewhat arcane set of rules, I figure this thread can serve as a sort of catch-all for those types of questions.   Group Background: We run a 6 person party (all recently 5th level), though usually one or two of the 6 PCs are run by a player who didn't create them (someone is absent, so someone else runs two characters).  This tends to result in one or two PCs being run by people who don't quite know how to run them to take full advantage of what those PCs can do.   Rules on Building Encounters:   First, try to keep the CR of the creature at or below the PC level.  So trying to keep CR at or below 5 for my party.   Second, calculate Encounter Diffuclty XP Per Character, for each of the four defined categories.  In this case, as a 5th level party of six PCs, that result is as follows: Easy = 1500, Medium = 3000, Hard = 4500, and Deadly = 6600.   Third, add up the XP value of all the creatures in the encounter. See examples below.   Fourth, Multiple that total XP value by the Encounter XP Multiplier.  This is where my question comes in.  For instance, the guidelines say a pair of monsters has a 1.5 multiplier, a group of 3-6 monsters has a x2 modifier, etc..  However, the following sections has this note: "If you have six to eight adventurers, use the XP multiplier for the next smallest number of monsters (so, when fighting a gang (7-10) of monsters, use the x2 XP modifier of a group (3-6) of monsters instead), and use a x 0.5 multiplier for a singler monster opponent.  See examples below for my question.   Fifth, compare the Encounter XP Value to the party Encounter Difficulties, and adjust where necessary.    Here is my issue: the difference between 5 PCs and 6 PCs is pretty slim in my game, whereas the difference between 3 PCs and 8 PCs would be massive.  But, 3, 4 or 5 PCs use the multipliers as listed, while 6, 7 or 8 PCs use the category one down.  This changes encounter difficulties by a lot, and I am concerned the change is too much for a party of 6 PCs, particularly when one or two of those PCs are being run by people not very familiar with that PC.   Examples:   1) Two Trolls, who are CR 5, 1800 XP each, for a total XP of 2 x 1800 = 3600.  Using the normal multiplier, this is 3600 x1.5 = 5400, or Hard Encounter.  Using the adjustment down for a party of 6 PCs, that is 3600, or Medium Encounter.   2) Four Flameskulls, who are CR 4, 1100 XP each, for a total of 4 x 1100 = 4400.  Using the normal multiplier, this would be 4400 x 2 = 8800, or Almost Certain Death Encounter (since it's so far beyind Hard).  Using the adjustment down for the party of 6 PCs, that is 4400 x 1.5 = 6600, or Deadly.     3) Adjusting that last encounter to Three Flameskulls, that's 1100 XP x 3 = 3300.  Normal multiplier for three (a groupp) = 3300 x 2 = 6600, Deadly.  Using the adjusted multiplier for 6 PCs, it's 3300 x 1.5 = 4950, Hard.   The differences here are between a medium and hard encounter, a hard or deadly encounter, and between a deadly and almost certain death run-away! encounter.  That seems like a lot of difference, for a pretty fine distinction on number of PCs.   I am wondering if anyone has advice on dealing with this issue.  Should I just trust the results as they are written and go with it? Should I instead ignore the adjustment due to one or two PCs being run by people not familiar with those PCs? Should I come up with a compromise, where I use an adjustment number half-way between the normal number and the next lower category (so a 1.75 multiplier for 3 monsters instead of the lower 1.5)? Should I do something else?  What do you guys think?
#2 franfron Aug 22, 2014 13:54:21	First, a small correction on your examples. The encounter dificulty xp table states the maximum value of each category so in your examples: In 1 3600 xp is a hard encounter and 4500 is deadly. In 2 one is in the upper limit of deadly and the other is beyond deadly. And in 3 both are deadly.   OK, now for the advice. I think that the best  way to adress this is by trying with your group. I would first create encounters considering that you have 5 characters, and if your players don't have any problem to survive then you can consider the multiplier of 6 players. It's better to go at first easy with your players because you could always increase the difficulty for future encounters.   The encounters guidelines are only this, guidelines, because as you already point out little changes in the encounter or the number of characters change widely the maths due to the multipliers.
#3 Atheosis Aug 22, 2014 13:57:29	Try using the regular multiplier and see how it goes.  Then adjust accordingly.  It is better to give a party an encounter that is a little too easy than the other way around (as that might result in a TPK).  With enough encounters I'm sure you will find the sweet spot you are looking for.
#4 Mistwell Aug 22, 2014 14:02:18	Ah, Framfron that is a good point.  So for my party, Easy = 0-1500, Medium = 1501-3000, Hard = 3001-4500, Deadly = 4501-6600, Run-Away = 6601+.   That does change the calculations for sure.
#5 iserith Aug 22, 2014 14:11:14	When in doubt, it's easier to add than to take away. So shave off 25-50% of the budget, then add them back in via a second wave if the PCs are having an easy go of it. If you go all in at the get-go and realize it's more than you intended, it's hard to back off without looking cheesy.
#6 Fantasyfilmsman Aug 22, 2014 19:05:52	The second wave trick works good.   I run a smaller group but still functions with the multiplier. The encounters don't seem big enough but if you have waves it works wonders and really brings in resource management.
#7 Rhenny Aug 22, 2014 20:11:05	Yup, I'm a second wave fan too.      Also, a lot of what happens in an encounter can change due to "smart " play (stealth, ambush, deception, negotiation, surprise) and sometimes the dice favor or curse the pcs as well.    All those variables keep the game interesting, but they do make it so that the DM has to feel things out a bit (almost all the time).     Keep contingencies on hand. (Remember to have intelligent foes take prisoners, or have reasons for some to run away, or join the fray if it makes the encounter more interesting).