Challenge Ratings too easy - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Auticus Mar 20, 2015 6:25:46	One thing that I have had a problem wtih dating back to third edition is the challenge rating system. It has always seemed a bit too easy to me. Whenever I play under a DM that follows the CR guidelines and they throw what the DMG considers moderately challenging encounters, we usually vaporize it with minimal effort. A deadly encounter to the DMG is something that is rarely deadly at all, probably what I'd consider more inline with "moderately challenging". An example: at first level the DMG considers a moderately challenging encounter to be 50xp per player, hard is 75 xp, and deadly is 100 xp. Lets look at a hobgoblin - a 1/2 CR weighing in at 200 xp. A party of four first-level adventurers, per the DMG, would find TWO hobgoblins to be moderately challenging, and four hobgoblins to be deadly. From experience I know that four PCs vs two hobgoblins is going to be a quick fight. The hobgoblins may get in a hit or two before dying, but the PCs are really in no real danger of dying. Four PCs vs four hobgoblins, or one per PC, from experience - there is a chance that a PC may drop but its not a likely chance. I don't know that I'd consider that "deadly". Perhaps its a hang up on words for me. To me, a minor chance of dropping a PC is more a moderate challenge. Their version of moderate challenge I consider easy. I actually have a hard and deadly scale of my own, which are encounters that will likely damage the characters (hard encounters to me will likely drop a character or two (dropping being taken to 0 hp but with the system the way it is - player death seems difficult to achieve) and deadly encounters have the potential for a party wipe and should be very rare (both hard and deadly to me are not represented in the DMG) Is this unreasonable?
#2 DMStevenH Mar 20, 2015 7:12:23	Really? I'd consider four hobgoblins vs four first level players to be a very deadly fight. If the goblins attacks with martial advantage (which is easy to get) they're looking at something like 11-12 damage on hit average. That's enough to drop most classes in a single hit. They also have very good AC (18!) meaning most 1st level attackers are going to need 13s to hit. If a party fights a group of two hobgoblins I'd expect them to have to burn at least some spells and hit dice after that fight. Which is appropriate for a moderate difficulty. If they fight four hobgoblins I'd expect them to be pining for a long rest. I don't think I'd have much trouble at all killing four first level players with four hobgoblins.
#3 Auticus Mar 20, 2015 7:08:06	I suppose it depends on how the fight goes. Knowing that the hobgoblins get their bonus if they are within 5' of each other, the smart party divides them out at range and forces them to split up. I've run this battle a few times and the worst that happened was one battle one of the rogues got taken to 0 due to a crit. If the party barrels into them while they are grouped together, then yes, the fight could go south quickly.
#4 Synjin Mar 20, 2015 7:13:59	DMStevenH wrote:
#5 Auticus Mar 20, 2015 7:16:33	Gotcha. That makes sense. They tend to take a long rest after any taxing encounter anyway. That may be another reason for the ease at which they plow through encounters.
#6 Synjin Mar 20, 2015 7:17:47	Auticus wrote:
#7 DMStevenH Mar 20, 2015 7:27:09	My party took a long rest in Cragmaw Castle in LMoP midway through the assualt... The person they were trying to rescue did not survive and both main villains escaped to fight again... Bad time to take a rest.
#8 samuraivillain2 Mar 20, 2015 7:29:30	Played right 2 hobs could probably destroy a party of 4. you have to take into consideration all the variable that go into an encounter. case in point, our group last night had 2 members almost taken out by a group of 4 stirge (cr1/8), all it takes is a couple lucky rolls and your wizard has been dropped to 2/8 hp and your cleric is dying at -2
#9 Auticus Mar 20, 2015 7:33:26	I would have to see an example of two hobgoblins destroying four PCs.
#10 iserith Mar 20, 2015 7:37:32	I will thoroughly defeat a party with 0 XP, CR 0, 0-damage sea horses!
#11 Fake-Healer Mar 20, 2015 7:37:46	Auticus wrote:
#12 DMStevenH Mar 20, 2015 7:42:56	Hobgoblins get surprise and are close. First hobgoblin part moves into mele, waits, second hobgoblin moves into mele with same target attacks, drops player with martial advantage. Second goblin moves to second player. First goblin moves to second player attacks, drops with martial advantage. First non-surprise round, repeat surprise round with remaining two players.
#13 Auticus Mar 20, 2015 7:49:01	Sure - but surprise can make any encounter more difficult. If I create an encounter involving guaranteed surprise, or an ambush, or whatever, I inflate the challenge rating of the encounter to compensate for that. 4 moops by themselves are one type of challenge. Those same moops ambushing with surprise make the challenge more difficult.
#14 DMStevenH Mar 20, 2015 8:03:29	Alternative non-surprise variant. Two hobgoblins rush into mele and take the dodge action each round. Two other hogoblins rush into cover and shoot into mele for 3d6 damage per hit. Expect one player to fall unconcious every round. As soon as it seems safe the mele goblins start attacking too. Party wipe without even trying.
#15 QwertyAzerty Mar 20, 2015 8:07:24	you have to realize that the CR that WotC give to there monster will vary depending on: The DM experience. If I DM and play a dragon my dragon will be WAY harder to kill then if my little 10 year old kid play the same dragon. My dragon will be smart and tactical, using his strenght, size and flying ability and breath weapon to destroy the PC and stay at safe distance from them. My 10 years old kid will mak ethe dragon rush the party and do claw/claw/bite and the draogn will be dead within 3 round maximum. Then the payer experience: once again when I play with my friend with who I've played DnD for the last 15 years, we will used the optimal tactics and defeat any encouter faster and using less ressourcer then my kid and his friend who are still simply swarming that monster and hope to roll high. Then their is the team composition. a Monster who's immune to spell uder level 5 for example, encoutner a group of fighter will be destroyed way faster then if he meet a group of wizard. The amoutn of rest the party get. if the party get a long rest after every fight, then yes they will have an easier time with the monster then the group who is allow a single short rest during the evening, and a long rest only between adventures.
#16 Auticus Mar 20, 2015 8:16:07	I may start making alternate encounters. An easy version (what the DMG guide provides) An advanced version (more difficult) Can apply to group depending on the experience level of the players in the group.
#17 FighterFan Mar 20, 2015 8:22:48	Even without surprise I consider 4 hobgoblins quite deadly. They are not stupid, they know their own qualities => Martial Advantage But how does the PCs know about Martial Advantage? Because the players walked through the MM? Any kind of monster knowledge checks? Assuming the PCs do not know about MA, there's a good chance a few PCs will drop. Even if they know about it and the hobgoblins win initiative, I'd bet on the hobgoblins if they are close enough. 4 hobgoblins, 3 being able to use MA (all except the first): 1d8+1 +2d6 averages 12 per hit. So one hit could drop any except the barbarian... The first time we played 5e I threw -what I thought- "a few" goblins at them... darn, almost killed the group with what I thought would be an easy sidekick to get the 1st combat in 5e started.
#18 Auticus Mar 20, 2015 8:24:33	The players I DM all know the monster manual backwards and forwards but yes you are correct, if they did not know that they had martial advantage then that would make a difference.
#19 Synjin Mar 20, 2015 8:27:32	Auticus wrote:
#20 DMStevenH Mar 20, 2015 8:28:50	I almost killed my first level party with four goblins. I just happened to roll four hits in the first round with good damage. That was enough to drop two party members and almost drop two more.
#21 Archon007 Mar 20, 2015 9:18:40	You have to take a lot of things into account not just CR exp. Terrain is a huge factor. A CR 1 fight against goblins with short bows in a 20x20 room is completely different than that same fight if they are on the other side of a field. It's completely different if they are behind palisade or on top of a guard tower. Resources. A Moderate CR exp fight with the same enemies and same terrian is completely different if it's the first fight of the day versus the 4th fight of the day. Synchronization. A moderate CR exp challenge is going to be different if you have 2 different enemies that don't work well together vs 2 different enemies that have synchronizing/complimentary abilities. Number of units. A CR exp encounter that is 400exp will be completely different if it 1 400exp enemy or 4 100exp enemies. DM mindset. All things being equal one DM can run an encounter completely different than another DM. I always run my encounters to win. I play my enemies as though they are my characters and they want to win. This starts with knowing what the enemies are trying to accomplish in the encounter. I never run an encounter unless I first know why the enemies are there, what they want to accomplish, what tactics will they use, and what will they do if they are winning or losing. I hope this helps. My point is try, no don't try, never look at an encounter as just stat blocks.
#22 FighterFan Mar 20, 2015 9:22:56	Auticus wrote:
#23 Mommy_was_an_Orc Mar 20, 2015 10:31:15	Auticus wrote:
(Reply to #3) Coredump00	Auticus wrote:
#25 Coredump00 Mar 20, 2015 11:36:22	Auticus wrote:
(Reply to #23) AaronOfBarbaria	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#27 Mommy_was_an_Orc Mar 20, 2015 16:44:01	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #27) AaronOfBarbaria	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
(Reply to #14) randl	DMStevenH wrote:
(Reply to #29) DMStevenH	randl wrote:
#31 FrogReaver Mar 21, 2015 14:28:25	Auticus wrote:
#32 Noon Mar 21, 2015 18:12:48	I think the issue is the death spiral. When one party member goes down, a party of four just lost a quarter of it's damage output or healing output. A lack of damage output (or healing, ie, keeping people up and doing damage) makes it more likely another player will go down. So it's a death spiral. It's really hard to call such things because they go from someone knocked down and that's not much to 'OMG everyones dying!' in such a short space in between. So they err on the cautious side. If you have 6 players, the difficulty ratings are probably over cautious because you can afford to have someone fall and it's not that big a deal. But with 4, there's a lot less room.
#33 BRJN Mar 22, 2015 16:15:58	Noon wrote:
#34 Auticus Mar 23, 2015 5:37:59	1. I'm not sure how much more deadly you would like to see a deadly encounter be 2. I don't believe that moderately challenging encounters are supposed to cause PC death. I believe they are supposed to cause resource reduction and make the PC's feel heroic. With that said if the enemies get some good rolls and the PC's get a round of poor rolls then that moderate encounter just got alot harder.
#35 DMStevenH Mar 23, 2015 6:26:28	Well, then the solution seems pretty easy. Just run hard encounters. You want a hard game so use "hard" as your default level when designing encounters. With two hobgoblins across a bridge and two up close in mele the party is looking at taking an extra 2d6 damage on every attack that actually hits them. That's much more deadly. (average of 11.5 damage per hit - enough to drop the fighter or ranger almost to zero on an average hit). A more interesting encounter might be half a dozen goblins attacking in mele and two hobgoblins with bows that attack from range. The hobgoblins should flee and attack again from range rather than allow themselves to get caught in mele. Instead of two hobgoblins use two bugbears. Instead of two bug bears use one knight. Your party is probably second level now? Have them be surprised by eight kobolds in cover while they're in difficult terrain in the open. Or a hill giant.
#36 Slyck314 Mar 23, 2015 10:30:18	I find the only thing off with the encounter guidlines is the number of monsters multiplier. If I'm using only one monster in an encounter he generally swings significantly below his CR.
#37 alienux Mar 23, 2015 11:10:01	Slyck314 wrote:
#38 Rhenny Mar 23, 2015 14:23:53	Here's a nice article about encounter building complete with a new chart that helps a lot - courtesy of Sly Flourish http://slyflourish.com/5e_encounter_building.html
#39 Greenstone.Walker Mar 23, 2015 19:12:22	Auticus wrote:
#40 Auticus Mar 24, 2015 5:17:49	Yes that would definity be difficult but that is an extreme situation again. That would be boosting the encounter difficulty by virtue of the surroundings... most encounters don't start at 200 yards. Also the PCs will typically also have missile weapons. If CR and encounter building depends on you stacking the deck of the encounter every time like that, then that's still not a very good system to me. It shouldn't be "deadly - but only if you place them 200 yards away in cover with bows or have them auto surprise your party in an ambush.
#41 BRJN Mar 28, 2015 15:19:08	Greenstone.Walker wrote:
#42 Byakugan01 Mar 29, 2015 0:25:32	A single goblin and half-ogre that the party had surprise on almost killed 1 pc...that was against 7 pcs. Only hit with 1 attack, and it didnt even crit, but would have killed outright 3 of the PCs had they been closest. anything that deals bonus dice is very threatening to 1st level PCs. All it takes is 1 good initiative roll, or 1 nat 20 and someone is stone cold dead. Huge question is also how ruthless you want your monsters to be. Most DMs ignore downed players even though it is tactically smart for monsters to strike a deathblow and flee. But pcs would be dying all the time. AL doesn't encourage coddling, but they also don't want the tables to be revolving meat grinders. The new module is really deadly...you basically can't roll randomly on the random encounter chart or the PCs will die. Even our coordinater suggested we not roll randomly.
(Reply to #39) CCS	Greenstone.Walker wrote:
#44 Greenstone.Walker Mar 29, 2015 15:27:42	BRJN wrote:
#45 Rhenny Mar 29, 2015 16:42:03	I'm still thinking that the threat that foes can damage pcs is more important than the actual damage they cause. As a player, if I know that I'm in a situation where if the DM's dice get hot I'm dying, I'm still tense even if I don't take much damage. Also, it is far better to create encounters and quests in 5e where dying isn't the only failure condition. I think this edition encourages this. Scenarios where you rescue prisoners, obtain important items and keep them safe, explore strange and puzzling areas, figure out how to thwart opponents by might/magic/charm or trickery,etc. Because of this cr really just needs to be a rough estimate tool.
#46 Rhenny Mar 31, 2015 5:48:53	In our last session 5 level 5 pcs had tough time with wraiths and wights. I threw too many at them (3 of each) since that's what the story seemed to dictate. The wraiths could basically 1 shot kill outright any wounded pc..or 2 hit kill a healthy pc. One pc should have died, but I forgot to kill him(DMing after a 2 week break made me soft). The wizard was able to cast 2 fireballs which killed 2 foes and weakened others so the rogue, monk and fighter and cleric could take out the rest. From the way the encounter played out, it seems like the cr/xp did alert that someone or more would die and there was the possibility of severe TPK or near tpk. Even 2 wraiths would have been difficult. Granted, the cleric should have tried to turn them, but since the plan was to lure them in so the wizard could fireball them, the cleric held his turning. Also, he held it because the party knew that another group of 3 wraiths and 3 wights were searching for them in a different direction.
#47 BRJN Apr 04, 2015 13:50:33	After my L5 party stumbled across a Shambling Mound in a swamp, I've taken to calling them the Creature from the Black Lagoon. It could have destroyed our party by itself (we were caught in a poor tactical situation). OTOH, I'm designing a mini-campaign with BBEG a sea hag coven. The bodyguard they summon will be a CftBL, and one hag will keep Witch Bolt to use to recover its HP. Anything with a Swallow Whole-equivalent attack ought to provide a scary challenging memorable experience.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Auticus

Mar 20, 2015 6:25:46

One thing that I have had a problem wtih dating back to third edition is the challenge rating system. It has always seemed a bit too easy to me.

Whenever I play under a DM that follows the CR guidelines and they throw what the DMG considers moderately challenging encounters, we usually vaporize it with minimal effort. A deadly encounter to the DMG is something that is rarely deadly at all, probably what I'd consider more inline with "moderately challenging".

An example: at first level the DMG considers a moderately challenging encounter to be 50xp per player, hard is 75 xp, and deadly is 100 xp.

Lets look at a hobgoblin - a 1/2 CR weighing in at 200 xp.

A party of four first-level adventurers, per the DMG, would find TWO hobgoblins to be moderately challenging, and four hobgoblins to be deadly.

From experience I know that four PCs vs two hobgoblins is going to be a quick fight. The hobgoblins may get in a hit or two before dying, but the PCs are really in no real danger of dying.

Four PCs vs four hobgoblins, or one per PC, from experience - there is a chance that a PC may drop but its not a likely chance. I don't know that I'd consider that "deadly".

Perhaps its a hang up on words for me. To me, a minor chance of dropping a PC is more a moderate challenge. Their version of moderate challenge I consider easy. I actually have a hard and deadly scale of my own, which are encounters that will likely damage the characters (hard encounters to me will likely drop a character or two (dropping being taken to 0 hp but with the system the way it is - player death seems difficult to achieve) and deadly encounters have the potential for a party wipe and should be very rare (both hard and deadly to me are not represented in the DMG)

Is this unreasonable?

DMStevenH

Mar 20, 2015 7:12:23

Really?

I'd consider four hobgoblins vs four first level players to be a very deadly fight. If the goblins attacks with martial advantage (which is easy to get) they're looking at something like 11-12 damage on hit average. That's enough to drop most classes in a single hit. They also have very good AC (18!) meaning most 1st level attackers are going to need 13s to hit.

If a party fights a group of two hobgoblins I'd expect them to have to burn at least some spells and hit dice after that fight. Which is appropriate for a moderate difficulty. If they fight four hobgoblins I'd expect them to be pining for a long rest.

I don't think I'd have much trouble at all killing four first level players with four hobgoblins.

Auticus

Mar 20, 2015 7:08:06

I suppose it depends on how the fight goes.

Knowing that the hobgoblins get their bonus if they are within 5' of each other, the smart party divides them out at range and forces them to split up.

I've run this battle a few times and the worst that happened was one battle one of the rogues got taken to 0 due to a crit.

If the party barrels into them while they are grouped together, then yes, the fight could go south quickly.

Synjin

Mar 20, 2015 7:13:59

DMStevenH wrote:

Auticus

Mar 20, 2015 7:16:33

Gotcha. That makes sense. They tend to take a long rest after any taxing encounter anyway. That may be another reason for the ease at which they plow through encounters.

Synjin

Mar 20, 2015 7:17:47

Auticus wrote:

DMStevenH

Mar 20, 2015 7:27:09

My party took a long rest in Cragmaw Castle in LMoP midway through the assualt... The person they were trying to rescue did not survive and both main villains escaped to fight again... Bad time to take a rest.

samuraivillain2

Mar 20, 2015 7:29:30

Played right 2 hobs could probably destroy a party of 4. you have to take into consideration all the variable that go into an encounter. case in point, our group last night had 2 members almost taken out by a group of 4 stirge (cr1/8), all it takes is a couple lucky rolls and your wizard has been dropped to 2/8 hp and your cleric is dying at -2

Auticus

Mar 20, 2015 7:33:26

I would have to see an example of two hobgoblins destroying four PCs.

#10

iserith

Mar 20, 2015 7:37:32

I will thoroughly defeat a party with 0 XP, CR 0, 0-damage sea horses!

#11

Fake-Healer

Mar 20, 2015 7:37:46

Auticus wrote:

#12

DMStevenH

Mar 20, 2015 7:42:56

Hobgoblins get surprise and are close. First hobgoblin part moves into mele, waits, second hobgoblin moves into mele with same target attacks, drops player with martial advantage. Second goblin moves to second player. First goblin moves to second player attacks, drops with martial advantage. First non-surprise round, repeat surprise round with remaining two players.

#13

Auticus

Mar 20, 2015 7:49:01

Sure - but surprise can make any encounter more difficult. If I create an encounter involving guaranteed surprise, or an ambush, or whatever, I inflate the challenge rating of the encounter to compensate for that.

4 moops by themselves are one type of challenge.

Those same moops ambushing with surprise make the challenge more difficult.

#14

DMStevenH

Mar 20, 2015 8:03:29

Alternative non-surprise variant. Two hobgoblins rush into mele and take the dodge action each round. Two other hogoblins rush into cover and shoot into mele for 3d6 damage per hit. Expect one player to fall unconcious every round. As soon as it seems safe the mele goblins start attacking too. Party wipe without even trying.

#15

QwertyAzerty

Mar 20, 2015 8:07:24

you have to realize that the CR that WotC give to there monster will vary depending on:

The DM experience. If I DM and play a dragon my dragon will be WAY harder to kill then if my little 10 year old kid play the same dragon. My dragon will be smart and tactical, using his strenght, size and flying ability and breath weapon to destroy the PC and stay at safe distance from them. My 10 years old kid will mak ethe dragon rush the party and do claw/claw/bite and the draogn will be dead within 3 round maximum.

Then the payer experience: once again when I play with my friend with who I've played DnD for the last 15 years, we will used the optimal tactics and defeat any encouter faster and using less ressourcer then my kid and his friend who are still simply swarming that monster and hope to roll high.

Then their is the team composition. a Monster who's immune to spell uder level 5 for example, encoutner a group of fighter will be destroyed way faster then if he meet a group of wizard.

The amoutn of rest the party get. if the party get a long rest after every fight, then yes they will have an easier time with the monster then the group who is allow a single short rest during the evening, and a long rest only between adventures.

#16

Auticus

Mar 20, 2015 8:16:07

I may start making alternate encounters.

An easy version (what the DMG guide provides)

An advanced version (more difficult)

Can apply to group depending on the experience level of the players in the group.

#17

FighterFan

Mar 20, 2015 8:22:48

Even without surprise I consider 4 hobgoblins quite deadly.

They are not stupid, they know their own qualities => Martial Advantage

But how does the PCs know about Martial Advantage? Because the players walked through the MM?

Any kind of monster knowledge checks?

Assuming the PCs do not know about MA, there's a good chance a few PCs will drop.

Even if they know about it and the hobgoblins win initiative, I'd bet on the hobgoblins if they are

close enough.

4 hobgoblins, 3 being able to use MA (all except the first): 1d8+1 +2d6 averages 12 per hit.

So one hit could drop any except the barbarian...

The first time we played 5e I threw -what I thought- "a few" goblins at them... darn, almost killed the

group with what I thought would be an easy sidekick to get the 1st combat in 5e started.

#18

Auticus

Mar 20, 2015 8:24:33

The players I DM all know the monster manual backwards and forwards but yes you are correct, if they did not know that they had martial advantage then that would make a difference.

#19

Synjin

Mar 20, 2015 8:27:32

Auticus wrote:

#20

DMStevenH

Mar 20, 2015 8:28:50

I almost killed my first level party with four goblins. I just happened to roll four hits in the first round with good damage. That was enough to drop two party members and almost drop two more.

#21

Archon007

Mar 20, 2015 9:18:40

You have to take a lot of things into account not just CR exp.

Terrain is a huge factor. A CR 1 fight against goblins with short bows in a 20x20 room is completely different than that same fight if they are on the other side of a field. It's completely different if they are behind palisade or on top of a guard tower.

Resources. A Moderate CR exp fight with the same enemies and same terrian is completely different if it's the first fight of the day versus the 4th fight of the day.

Synchronization. A moderate CR exp challenge is going to be different if you have 2 different enemies that don't work well together vs 2 different enemies that have synchronizing/complimentary abilities.

Number of units. A CR exp encounter that is 400exp will be completely different if it 1 400exp enemy or 4 100exp enemies.

DM mindset. All things being equal one DM can run an encounter completely different than another DM. I always run my encounters to win. I play my enemies as though they are my characters and they want to win. This starts with knowing what the enemies are trying to accomplish in the encounter. I never run an encounter unless I first know why the enemies are there, what they want to accomplish, what tactics will they use, and what will they do if they are winning or losing.

I hope this helps. My point is try, no don't try, never look at an encounter as just stat blocks.

#22

FighterFan

Mar 20, 2015 9:22:56

Auticus wrote:

#23

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Mar 20, 2015 10:31:15

Auticus wrote:

(Reply to #3)

Coredump00

Auticus wrote:

#25

Coredump00

Mar 20, 2015 11:36:22

Auticus wrote:

(Reply to #23)

AaronOfBarbaria

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

#27

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Mar 20, 2015 16:44:01

AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

(Reply to #27)

AaronOfBarbaria

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

(Reply to #14)

randl

DMStevenH wrote:

(Reply to #29)

DMStevenH

randl wrote:

#31

FrogReaver

Mar 21, 2015 14:28:25

Auticus wrote:

#32

Noon

Mar 21, 2015 18:12:48

I think the issue is the death spiral.

When one party member goes down, a party of four just lost a quarter of it's damage output or healing output.

A lack of damage output (or healing, ie, keeping people up and doing damage) makes it more likely another player will go down.

So it's a death spiral.

It's really hard to call such things because they go from someone knocked down and that's not much to 'OMG everyones dying!' in such a short space in between. So they err on the cautious side.

If you have 6 players, the difficulty ratings are probably over cautious because you can afford to have someone fall and it's not that big a deal. But with 4, there's a lot less room.

#33

BRJN

Mar 22, 2015 16:15:58

Noon wrote:

#34

Auticus

Mar 23, 2015 5:37:59

1. I'm not sure how much more deadly you would like to see a deadly encounter be

2. I don't believe that moderately challenging encounters are supposed to cause PC death. I believe they are supposed to cause resource reduction and make the PC's feel heroic. With that said if the enemies get some good rolls and the PC's get a round of poor rolls then that moderate encounter just got alot harder.

#35

DMStevenH

Mar 23, 2015 6:26:28

Well, then the solution seems pretty easy. Just run hard encounters. You want a hard game so use "hard" as your default level when designing encounters.

With two hobgoblins across a bridge and two up close in mele the party is looking at taking an extra 2d6 damage on every attack that actually hits them. That's much more deadly. (average of 11.5 damage per hit - enough to drop the fighter or ranger almost to zero on an average hit). A more interesting encounter might be half a dozen goblins attacking in mele and two hobgoblins with bows that attack from range. The hobgoblins should flee and attack again from range rather than allow themselves to get caught in mele.

Instead of two hobgoblins use two bugbears. Instead of two bug bears use one knight.

Your party is probably second level now? Have them be surprised by eight kobolds in cover while they're in difficult terrain in the open. Or a hill giant.

#36

Slyck314

Mar 23, 2015 10:30:18

I find the only thing off with the encounter guidlines is the number of monsters multiplier. If I'm using only one monster in an encounter he generally swings significantly below his CR.

#37

alienux

Mar 23, 2015 11:10:01

Slyck314 wrote:

#38

Rhenny

Mar 23, 2015 14:23:53

Here's a nice article about encounter building complete with a new chart that helps a lot - courtesy of Sly Flourish

http://slyflourish.com/5e_encounter_building.html

#39

Greenstone.Walker

Mar 23, 2015 19:12:22

Auticus wrote:

#40

Auticus

Mar 24, 2015 5:17:49

Yes that would definity be difficult but that is an extreme situation again. That would be boosting the encounter difficulty by virtue of the surroundings... most encounters don't start at 200 yards.

Also the PCs will typically also have missile weapons.

If CR and encounter building depends on you stacking the deck of the encounter every time like that, then that's still not a very good system to me. It shouldn't be "deadly - but only if you place them 200 yards away in cover with bows or have them auto surprise your party in an ambush.

#41

BRJN

Mar 28, 2015 15:19:08

Greenstone.Walker wrote:

#42

Byakugan01

Mar 29, 2015 0:25:32

A single goblin and half-ogre that the party had surprise on almost killed 1 pc...that was against 7 pcs. Only hit with 1 attack, and it didnt even crit, but would have killed outright 3 of the PCs had they been closest.

anything that deals bonus dice is very threatening to 1st level PCs. All it takes is 1 good initiative roll, or 1 nat 20 and someone is stone cold dead.

Huge question is also how ruthless you want your monsters to be. Most DMs ignore downed players even though it is tactically smart for monsters to strike a deathblow and flee. But pcs would be dying all the time. AL doesn't encourage coddling, but they also don't want the tables to be revolving meat grinders.

The new module is really deadly...you basically can't roll randomly on the random encounter chart or the PCs will die. Even our coordinater suggested we not roll randomly.

(Reply to #39)

CCS

Greenstone.Walker wrote:

#44

Greenstone.Walker

Mar 29, 2015 15:27:42

BRJN wrote:

#45

Rhenny

Mar 29, 2015 16:42:03

I'm still thinking that the threat that foes can damage pcs is more important than the actual damage they cause. As a player, if I know that I'm in a situation where if the DM's dice get hot I'm dying, I'm still tense even if I don't take much damage.

Also, it is far better to create encounters and quests in 5e where dying isn't the only failure condition. I think this edition encourages this. Scenarios where you rescue prisoners, obtain important items and keep them safe, explore strange and puzzling areas, figure out how to thwart opponents by might/magic/charm or trickery,etc.

Because of this cr really just needs to be a rough estimate tool.

#46

Rhenny

Mar 31, 2015 5:48:53

In our last session 5 level 5 pcs had tough time with wraiths and wights. I threw too many at them (3 of each) since that's what the story seemed to dictate. The wraiths could basically 1 shot kill outright any wounded pc..or 2 hit kill a healthy pc. One pc should have died, but I forgot to kill him(DMing after a 2 week break made me soft).

The wizard was able to cast 2 fireballs which killed 2 foes and weakened others so the rogue, monk and fighter and cleric could take out the rest.

From the way the encounter played out, it seems like the cr/xp did alert that someone or more would die and there was the possibility of severe TPK or near tpk. Even 2 wraiths would have been difficult. Granted, the cleric should have tried to turn them, but since the plan was to lure them in so the wizard could fireball them, the cleric held his turning. Also, he held it because the party knew that another group of 3 wraiths and 3 wights were searching for them in a different direction.

#47

BRJN

Apr 04, 2015 13:50:33

After my L5 party stumbled across a Shambling Mound in a swamp, I've taken to calling them the Creature from the Black Lagoon. It could have destroyed our party by itself (we were caught in a poor tactical situation). OTOH, I'm designing a mini-campaign with BBEG a sea hag coven. The bodyguard they summon will be a CftBL, and one hag will keep Witch Bolt to use to recover its HP. Anything with a Swallow Whole-equivalent attack ought to provide a scary challenging memorable experience.