Hey everyone. We're about to start our first 5E campaign not using premade characters. We have one player who is completely new to the game, and her excitement is infectious. She chose a Circle of the Moon Druid; the rest of the group is a Battlemaster Fighter with Great Weapons, A Hunter Ranger with Bows, and a Tome Warlock of the Great Old Ones.
Since the druid player is new, and the group only has one set of the books, I started putting together a list of the forms she'll be able to take when she reaches level 2. I read up on how her wildshape works, and my DM worries started kicking in.
Is she going to be stronger than the Fighter? Is the Fighter player going to be jealous? My very first 3E group had some tension when the party's ranger couldn't hold a candle to the party's barbarian.
Here's a quick snapshot of what the characters will look like at 2nd level:
Fighter
Level 2, AC 16, HP 20, Speed 30, Attack +5/11.33, Specials: 7 heal/short, Action surge 1/short
Druid
Level 2, AC 16, HP 13, Speed 30, Attack +5/7.5, Specials: Wildshape 2/short (CR1), 3 1st level spells/long
Dire Wolf, Large
AC 14, HP 37, Speed 50, extra skills: perception, stealth, Attack bite +5/10 and DC 13 str or prone, specials: Keen Hearing and Smell, Pack Tactics
So, generally, once per fight the druid can become a dire wolf. The fighter out-damages the dire wolf, and out ACs it, but the wolf can almost always attack with advantage, knocks prone on every hit (with a save that is), and has almost double the HP.
I know D&D isn't a PvP game, but I cannot imagine the fighter being able to take out the druid. I don't imagine the druid ever getting knocked out of dire wolf form. Their extra healing is rather comparable to each other, with the fighter eeking out if the druid always uses its spells for combat wildshape healing, but I'm a bit worried going forward.
Running the fighter through the CR calculator in the DMG says that the level 2 fighter is Challenge level 1; low defense, high offense. So the fighter is equal to the dire wolf, but the dire wolf has a druid waiting in the wings.
Moon Druids have a huge power spike at level 2, but they even out later on. Sure, the fighter might be a little jealous for awhile, but he'll come into his own at level 5 - Extra Attack.
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
I actually find that, while the Moon Druid is really strong at level 2, at level 3 the power discrepency is already falling away - getting your subclass is that important. Just like a werewolf, a Moon Druid is really good at taking hits and regenerating.
As has been noted, the moon druid gets a power spike at level 2, but evens out pretty quickly afterwards (and a huge part of that is how awesome the fighter can get; note that the subclass options show up a level earlier for druids). There's a slight secondary spike once multiattack bear forms show up, but by then the fighter's strong enough you won't notice too much.
There's two things about that druid's proposed tactics: First, Wild Shape (and the Combat Wild Shape ability) provides quite a lot of regenerating hit points, but often has relatively low armor classes. Challenges that don't deal hit point damage circumvent this completely, while challenges with respectable but not auto-hitting attack bonuses are likely to hit the druid but miss the fighter (the 2 AC difference in your example is bigger than it seems, as I think you're numerical analyses lately have been hinting at. It certainly doesn't "feel" like it on a round-by-round basis, though.)
Second, the Dire Wolf form is large, and the fighter has opposable thumbs. Use the environment to your advantage.
Basically, your fighter's job will be to endure and dish it out. Your druid's job will be to regenerate like nobody's business (note that this consumes precious spell-slots; Moon druids may go entire adventures barely casting anything other than cantrips) early on; later on, when the druid gets more diverse spells and versatile forms but the fighter gets multiple attacks, Indomitable, and technical maneuvers, they'll diversify away from each other even more.
If your druid favors wolf forms, though, your fighter might want to focus on maneuvers that aren't trip-related. That's one area the wolf might outdo him in. However, he can exploit that: melee attacks against prone targets have advantage, so he can team up with the druid, let the druid's wolf form use Pack Tactics to get advantage and knock a target down, then follow up with a turbo-charged battlemaster maneuver of his own with advantage against the prone target. Or he can go all White Raven / Warlord on the foes, using Commander's Strike and viewing the druid's attack as something he (the fighter) did, just like the lazylords of old.
EDIT: In a versus situation, recall that the game assumes a party of PCs fighting against NPCs. As you noticed elsewhere, NPCs are not built using PC rules; the NPC druid, for instance, has 2nd level spells but no Wild Shape, and shape-shifting monsters use the Shapechanger ability (which is much easier for a busy DM to track, since usually nothing except, occasionally, size and speed change) instead of the beefier Wild Shape rules. A fighter vs a "druid" would be a fighter vs an NPC druid with Shapechanger (any appropriate beast forms) bolted on; a druid vs a "fighter" would be a druid vs an NPC Veteran or Knight (possibly with an advanced combat ability bolted on; some of these mirror battlemaster maneuvers too, but occasionally use lighter rules (see: Parry)). Because the opponents don't use PC rules, you don't need to balance PC abilities against each other on opposite sides of the fight (which goes a huge distance to closing the "Tier System" gap from previous editions; you still have NPC spellcasters using PC-style spells, but the system itself tries to minimize the impact of that thanks to Concentration mechanics).
A PC fighter vs a PC druid in a PVP situation would be an extraordinary circumstance that the game doesn't need to assume, similar to fighting with an artifact in play. This should rarely be in a coliseum-style setting, either; use the environment to your advantage. (If you need to plan for such a fight for whatever reason, and feel the need to tilt towards the fighter, remember who's got opposable thumbs..)
The other thing to bare in mind is that the two complement each other well. Let them create tactics together, there is no need for jealousies when they are all contributing to a win. Let the wolf knock enemies prone and charge on to the next while the fighters mops up the fallen, for example.
As I stated elsewhere I am likely going to stick with changing the CR 1 choice to level 3 and level 2 offering CR 1/2. This opens up a range of normal creatures that make more sense at that level that fall more inline with standard class power curves such as Black Bear, Ape or even a Warhorse and Giant Goat! Frankly I am a little shocked they didn't have this way to begin with. It simply makes far more sense to me.
I'm not a huge fan of a single wolf form but with Conjure Animals and Pack Tactics wolves become very fun. 
This is also why I love War Caster Feat when I have read many saying it isn't worth taking prior to level 18. It is damn handle at low levels for more than just the concentration bonus in form (as per wild shape rules). Casting using a shield when outside of form is very nice too. My character (who is mostly an npc as I am the DM) is a Moon Druid and find many reasons to not be in form all of the time. I imagine those who consider them only good in forms run far more hack and slash adventures than my own.
I am too seeing it as a potential artifact of the druid getting their subclass at level 2 instead of 3. I'll likely just deal with it, but I am thinking about Omnilicious's CR 1/2 idea. The CR 1 forms are just too equal or potentially better than the fighter to still have a fully rested druid waiting in the wings; at least the fighter gets some hp and a damage boost at 3rd level.
The druid player is fixated on being a tiger. There's a tiger at cr 1 and a sabretooth at cr 2, but nothing after. I'm thinking of whipping up some "level up" rules for the forms to allow her to change into an enhanced version so she can keep her favorite form around (and maybe beef up the medium-sized forms too, instead of always being large).
I was also thinking of some level up ideas for forms. If only to keep the spectrum of choice alive. There is a healthy range of creature sizes on this planet of ours and so should it be anywhere. A good example is a Polar or Kodiak Bear (alternate to Cave Bear). Adults can range in size wildly where an average male is perhaps around 1400lbs or less but some have been measured well over 2000lbs and far larger in size than average. A druid could simply want to change into a really damn huge bear instead of forced into higher CR beasts that may not fit a situation well or simply isn't the Druid's style. I doubt I'd allow scaling past it's normal size category though unless of the smaller sizes where wiggle room is more limited.
My Moon Druid (who is mostly ran as an NPC) is a rather odd design (to befit an odd origin in Eberron) and is a Duegar Dwarf and I love sticking more to beasts that reside or at least enter caves at some point. Typically the ugly things or at least really hairy beasts so I'd like a spectrum of choices throughout the levels for him.
As others have said, Level 2 and 3 Moon Druids are very powerful, then they level off.
I've got three suggestions for nerfing Moon Druids if you need to here: http://community.wizards.com/comment/52092291#comment-52092291
The third one is relevent.
3) Reduce Wild Shape Max CR for level 2 and 3 Moon Druids.
If you think that turning into a CR 1 creature is too good at low levels.
CR 1/2 for 2nd and 3rd level moon druids (Black Bears and Crocodiles) [Hell the Black bear still has 19 HP, like a 2nd level Fighter, but far lower AC and more reasonable attacks]
CR 1 for 4-5 Druids (Brown Bears and Dire Wolves)
CR 2 for level 6 etc (and continue with CR Level/3 from then on)
From my own experience of playing a Moon Druid, playing in a party alongside one and DMing one, I've not found them actually problematic. Very good yes, but almost kinda useful for the party to have a buffer of HP given the swingyness of low level.
unless perhaps you intend most of the campaign to be limited to those levels.
It's very simple enough to add +15 HP and +6 damage to increase CR by 1 (and increase AC, Attack, and DCs at certain points).
Okay lets start off with I have a fighter a druid, and a paladin in one of my parties along with a warlock and a bard. I have seen them compare from level 3 to level 6 in game so far, and well things are going okay.
second lets take a look at numbers here.
Fighter
Level 2, AC 16, HP 20, Speed 30, Attack +5/11.33, Specials: 7 heal/short, Action surge 1/short
Druid
Level 2, AC 16, HP 13, Speed 30, Attack +5/7.5, Specials: Wildshape 2/short (CR1), 3 1st level spells/long
Dire Wolf, Large
AC 14, HP 37, Speed 50, extra skills: perception, stealth, Attack bite +5/10 and DC 13 str or prone, specials: Keen Hearing and Smell, Pack Tactics
this is the data you have provided using this data I can say this both have an equal chance to hit. I am unsure how the fighter is dealing 11.33 damage generally damage averages end up at .5 or a solid number.
Either way for now we can conclude that the fighter deal more damage than the druid in normal form and a little more than the dire wolf in animal form.
The druid can take a beating and once out of his form can quickly get back into his form. so his pros are that he can take a beating, he has an ability that while an ally is also adjacent to his foe he gets advantage beneficial to hitting, and if he hits the foe has a chance to be knocked prone. All in all this makes the Druid an effective tank for the party.
What the fighter has going for him are second wind, and action surge, as well as a 2 point higher ac.
What this means for party dynamics is simple team work will be important the fighter will most likely want to target the foe the druid goes for to grant the druid advantage so he can knock the foe prone to give the fighter advantage. (and depending on DM possibly a reaction attack when the guy gets back up)
also there is a 10% less chance of enemies hitting the fighter than druid, making the druid a more viable target for the enemy, meaning he is going to need the extra HP, while the fighter will have more opportunities to take risks to hit for more damage. So the fighter is falling back to a striker role, with a high defense and hp fall back to keep him from being a glass cannon, while the druid supplies the tank role.
Also I would just encourage them to work together, although it can get a little weird our paladin rode the dire wolf into battle in one of the sessions I was running, he got advantage for attacking from above the foe, and the wolf got advantage for pack tactics both of them were having a fun time.
11.33 damage comes from the way Great Weapon Fighting works; 1d6 normally averages 3.5, but with rerolls it averages 4.16666. Double 4.16666 is 8.3333, plus 3 (Str 16) is 11.33.
Fighter has second wind (1d10+1, or 6.5) per short rest. But the druid has 3 1st level spells that can be burned for 1d8 (4.5) hp per day, so their self healing is close, but the fighter does win.
Considering that their AC difference is near the difference between a Fighter and a Barbarian, and that the Barbarian only has 3 more HP than the fighter, I still feel like the druid has a lot of HP as a dire wolf at 2nd level. This does change at 3rd and up, though.
Xeviat-DM wrote:
OP:
As a (not-new) player, if my friends could do something that gives me Advantage on attack rolls, or otherwise makes it easy for me to do my job, I would be ecstatic, not jealous.
Besides having the Druid set up the Fighter for some spotlight time, what can the Fighter / this team do so the Druid can look awesome too?
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
BRJN wrote: