Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Oorgnid Jan 24, 2015 15:55:15	As the title states, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this.  I've gone through other threads and still struggle.  I've tried assuming the example in the back of the book where they take a werewolf CR3 and add 4 levels of barbarian to it.  With that being said we'll start talking statistics.  The werewolf has 9d8+18 hit die, with that in mind, we add the 4d8+8 to it giving it about 84 hp.  Werewolf has a PB of +2  and AC of <13 . The multiattack damages added together make it around 12-13 total damage a round. All of this information is leading me to about a CR of 1.     I look at the Werewolf and it clearly isn't going to be a CR of 1, but I just dont get this math.  The saving DC is <13.  The only thing that is a CR about this werewolf is his attack bonus of +4.  With that said, everything else is a CR 1 and lower.  So I'm just lost on how to do this.  I was making references back to the MM and thought I had a grasp on it by calculating the spell slots and hit die to get an idea of what level the caster is.  Acolyte seems to be a level 2 cleric with a CR of 1/4.  I  know my posts seems to be a lot of confusion, but this is just how it is wrapping in my head.  Tried to write numbers and follow the step by steps, but still just doesn't make sense to me.   What I'm trying to do is make a NPC of the fighter class to be an adversary for my group with a CR 2 but I cant balance him.  I was thinking AC of 15, using a Great sword that deals 2d6.  I read that you should build the NPC if you're going by class in the PHB to use the size HD instead of class.  So that being said, I'd use 4d8+8 for a fighter of 4th level4 which puts me roughly around 26hp.  That falls into the 1/8 CR.  It says to adjust the CR by 1 for every 2 pts of AC difference.  Would would be 1 1/8 DCR? So moving to the OCR I want him to use a Greatsword, which is 2d6+3 averaging about 9dmg per round.  I was going to make the fighter have the Battle Master Archetype which is where things can go downhill.  Should I assume the d8 as a 4 and calculate that into the total damage output even though he'll have 4 superiority dice?  If so, that would still assume 13 total damage being a CR of 1 for damage.  Attack bonus, assuming his Str mod is 3 and PB is 2 would make a total of +5 making his CR go up to a 2. Giving me a OCR 2.  With that said, the DCR is 1 1/8 and OCR is 2, would that assume the total CR to be 2?   The HP seems low compared to other CR2 creatures but this is what Ive come out with.   I mainly just want to get standard human NPCs down for now, but would eventually like to understand adding classes to humanoid monsters.  If I'm going on the right track, that'd be awesome to know.  I know this seems like a headache but again this is how it's playing out in my mind so I just need a little railroading to know if I'm going in the right direction. Thanks !   -Oorgnid
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Jan 24, 2015 19:25:33	Here is how I would do this particular "a fighter NPC that is about CR 2" NPC you are looking for:   Make a note of the CR 2 average values: 13 AC, 86-100 effective HP, +3 attack bonus, 9-14 average damage per round Pick out what fighter stuff you want the NPC to have, and see what kind of impact it would have: Action Surge would increase the average damage a bit (and necessitate taking 1 round of attack + action surge attack, 2 rounds of juat attack, and then averaging those to determine the actual average damage to use for CR calculation), Second Wind should count as effective increase in HP, and fighting style usually has a more obvious effect like changing attack bonus, AC, or damage. Decide what weapons and armor the NPC is going to use. Discover from what is certain (such as damage being 2d6 with a great sword) the uncertain portions of each bit of the character match the CR you are aiming for: basically, you can see from what the NPC's AC is where the effective HP total should be to hit your target CR - such as having a 15 AC (2 points higher than expected for CR 2, so counting as 1 CR step down the table on page 274) meaning an effective HP target between 71-85, unless offense CR is going to be at least 3. It can be a bit tricky because you have to entirely detach what level the NPC has in classes from how many hit dice they have, or you will always have their defensive CR far lower than you intend it to be.   Here is a quick CR 2 fighter NPC that I've put together, who happens to be a 2nd level fighter:   AC 16 (chain mail); HP 58 (9d8+18); attack w/ greatsword +5 vs. AC; 10 (2d6+3) slashing damage; Action Surge; Second Wind for 1d10+2) Str 16, Dex 9, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 13
#3 Oorgnid Jan 25, 2015 19:15:26	Boy that's a load to take in.  I'll probalby end up reading your response 10 times before I catch a grasp.  I appreciate the response and example.  I wonder if WotC plans on creating a builder like they did for 4e.
#4 AaronOfBarbaria Jan 25, 2015 20:46:24	WotC haven't announced any kind of plans for digital tools for 5e, not because they aren't working on any mind you, but because they are being careful not to reveal any information about anything too early - which they have experienced causes issues, especially when details of revealed information change after being revealed.   However, some fans have made a few useful tools. You can find a CR calculator that might help among the tools at this site. You have to use the book in order to figure out what values need altered and in what what before entering them in the calculator, but it does speed up the process of referencing the table and making adjustments and averages.
#5 Oorgnid Jan 30, 2015 12:47:52	Hey thanks.  I already use the CR calculator to determine if it's too difficult.  I mainly just would love the easy of quick building NPCs.  Till then, to the drawing board.
(Reply to #5) AaronOfBarbaria	Oorgnid wrote:
#7 Oorgnid Jan 30, 2015 21:27:10	Mainly, click a button and be done quick. It was just a nice feature to have a builder for you so you could quickly build boss npcs with out configuring it on your own.  I do my campaign on roll20, so I already have a lot of time building custom maps for my players for even more immerision.  May not be the best but background music and some sort of layout helps with picturing the things in your mind.  Would love to play in person, with minis and what not, but unfortunately distance plays a key in our groups campaign.
#8 AaronOfBarbaria Jan 30, 2015 22:36:21	Ah... I see. Unfortunately, I don't think anything that could do CR figurings that quickly would actually be able to account for all the minor details involved that sometimes play a significant part in making a monster challenging, but sometimes don't.
#9 Oorgnid Jan 30, 2015 22:54:32	I always loved using this generator for 3.5.  It was great, saved time and made a great use for boss monsters.
#10 Mind_Flayer_Monk Jan 31, 2015 7:52:25	Thank you for the external link. I played around with it a little and did find some questions marks. For example, I generated the following monster: Challenge Rating: 2
(Reply to #10) AaronOfBarbaria	Mind_Flayer_Monk wrote:
#12 Mind_Flayer_Monk Jan 31, 2015 8:41:40	Thank you AofB