I have been reading on the Lost Mines of Phandelver adventure ahead of time (not able to run it here until near the end of the month) and found myself curious about something regarding Venomfang.
In the book it says that once he has taken 50% damage (or more), he will try to escape. I also know it is possible that the characters may completely take him out even though they will barely be powerful enough to do it.
So, with my curiosity being what it is, I wanted to ask those of you who have already run a group through that part of the adventure how it went for your groups. Did Venomfang escape from your groups' grasps and live to fight another day, or were your groups actually able to take him out?
Looking forward to hearing how it went for your groups! 
In our group we had all five pregen PCs, all at level 5. We were pretty well geared and spell prepped going into the battle. Our DM told us after the fight that he boosted the dragon's AC from 18 to 20. The dragon still nearly wiped us out as he kept rolling 5s and 6s to get his breath weapon back. In the end, the wizard was able to bring down most of the dragon's hp using magic missile for his level 2 and 3 spell slots. The cleric was instrumental in keeping the group alive as we had three of the five PCs drop to 0 hp on at least 6 occasions, with the rogue actually dying. The cleric cast Revivify mid battle as we found 3 diamonds and so no one actually died long term. Our DM opted not to fly the dragon away at half HP and so we ended up killing it in the end. To kill the dragon using the RAW, a group would need to have it reduced to almost half HP, and then get some really solid hits, crits and spell damage in to finish it off before it can escape.
DM_HEEGZ wrote:
This was probably one of the few times I will play a PC. I generally DM. Right before the dragon attack, I told our DM (my son btw) to go all out and try to kill all five of us.
If our five PCs had been level four we would have died in about 5-6 rounds I think. The wizard probably would have escaped using his invisibility spell, but the rest would all have died for certain.
[edit]
The difficulty of the encounter was directly tied to two factors specifically. One, the cleric buffing and healing, not fighting (well he did use spiritual weapon which hit a few times). Two, the dragon recharging his breath weapon attack which was absolutely brutal.
DM_HEEGZ wrote:
Yes! 
It was pretty much our last session. We had completed everything else and leveled up to 5. We used the pregens and were already very ready to create our own PCs and so we were not going to play these characters ever again. It was the final showdown, and honestly I didn't think we would survive until we got into a good tactical position around round seven. With the boosted AC the rogue, both fighters, and spiritual weapon were missing almost every attack. As well, if I didn't have experience playing a cleric from previous editions we would have died, as I was using some pretty tactical play with positioning and spell use to keep everyone alive. Even with that, the dragon managed to hit the cleric around round 5 and I never got the opportunity to recast Bless, which was sorely missed!
Sounds like an awesome time.
The party ran away from the dragon to avoid being TPK so Venomfang is still in Thundertree 
DM_HEEGZ wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
Akeisha wrote:
The first play through I did saw the dragon flying away. The archer fighter kept firing his long bow as the dragon sped off. The thing had 1 hp left once it was out of range/out of sight,,,
The dragon had a poor initiative and the players were smart enough to spread out to avoid the breath weapon. They unloaded on it and got it down to half hp before the thing's 2nd turn
Plaguescarred wrote:
kanageddaamen wrote:
Akeisha wrote:
If I were DMing the dragon... and I might eventually (the group playing in it meets infrequently and has in essense 3 new players (2 of them kids)). But if I did, Just as it was going to flee, it would grapple the easiest to grab character and fly off with him/her for an easy kill.
Can't think of anyway to keep that dragon in place to finish him off. It would have to be a determined group of dragon slayers.
My group had two encounters with Venomfang.
The first was at level 3 with 6 characters (3 Fighters, 1 Rougue, 1 Cleric, 1 Wizard). They didn't know the dragon was there. The group entered into the cottage and peaked into the tower. The dragon's won initiative and its first action was to breath. Caught the entire party in the area attack. Killed the Rogue outright, 2 others were knocked unconcious in the attack. The other 3 grabbed the bodies and made a hasty exit. The battle was over after round 1.
They went to Neverwinter to resurect the Rogue and prepare a plan of action for the dragon. They hired a local fisherman to make a weighted 30 ft net. They hired a weaponsmith to make them some special flaming arrows (+1d6 fire damage with rate of fire of 1 per turn if you have them predoused with oil before the batttle and have a lit torch preprepared).
They then went back to Thundertree and cleared everything out of the town except the dragon. That allowed them to make level 4.
They waited for darkness and the thief scaled the wall of the tower and raised the net up to him. He placed the net over the rooftop of the tower. He fashioned himself a stand where he could peek over the top of the tower and shoot arrows down.
The three fighters positioned themselves, down on the ground, one at each arrow slot. The Cleric and Wizard hid in cover of the trees within line of sight of the rest of the group. Cleric blessed and aided the fighters, and applied resistance to poison on one of the fighters.
As the sun began to rise, the Fighters and Rogue lit their arrows and began to shoot at the dragon inside the tower.
Being assaulted from all directions, the dragon took flight up the tower and through the roof, getting entangled into the net. He landed 1d8 direction = SE, 1d8 distance = 10 feet away from the tower with a thud, taking 3d6 = 12 damage from the rough landing. The dragon had the Restrained condition (zero movement, grant advantage to attackers, can melee attack with disadvantage) from the net, which can be ended with a DC 20 strength save.
The dragons first attack was to breath. Looking around, he realized that he could only hit one person, so he chose the closest and most threatening looking target that he could see -- which was the Fighter who happened to have had resistance cast on him -- and so only did 1/4 damage to that fighter due to the combination of a successful saving throw and the resistance to poison -- for a total of 8 poison damage. As the dragon's turn ended, it made its first strength check against the net -- an adjusted 13 -- not good enough.
The wizard opened with a magic missle attack and the cleric used guiding bolt.
As round 2 opened, the closest Fighter dropped his crossbow, grabbed his greataxe and charged into melee. The other Fighters moved into cover of the trees, still peppering the dragon with fire arrows. The Rogue remained on his stand at the top of the tower, shooting down fire arrows.
The dragon rollls a 1 on his breath recharge, so he made 3 attacks against the Fighter in melee with him, but only hit once, with it's bite, due to having disadvantage from being restrained and damaged the fighter for about 17 damage. The dragon then ended its turn by making a strength check against the net -- an adjusted 24 -- he breaks free of the net and the Restrained condition.
The cleric makes an attack with his sacred flame and then heals the Fighter that is in melee with the dragon.
Round 3 saw the dragon winning initiative. He rolls a 2 on his breath recharge and so makes 3 more attacks against the fighter close to him, this time unrestrained, hitting 3 times, for over 30 damage.
The fighter is still up, so he makes a strong attack with his greataxe. The other fighters continue peppering the dragon with flaming arrows. The magic user casts a web against the dragon, but the dragon avoids it. The cleric heals some more on the fighter and takes another sacred flame attack. The rogue gets the finishing blow with a flaming arrow with sneak attack.
Length of fight: 3 rounds. Damage done to party: approx 55 damage against the main fighter. Damage done to the dragon: > 150.
I was very proud of my group. This was a text book example of how to fight a dragon. Go in with fore-knowledge and a plan. Buff up. Prepare the battlefield. Spread out. Draw him away from cramped fighting conditions which favor his breath weapon and multi-melee attacks. Make him fight on your terms, not his. Draw him out, but keep him from taking to the air. Focus fire with ranged weapons and spells. Healer coverage on the Tank.
If the dragon had survived to round 4, he would have flown off, but there was just too much damage being laid down by the group and he fell where he stood, before he could take to the air.
Vodokar, that was great. I like your players' style. Their immersion In the world is clear, and leads naturally to a very realistic (as battling dragons can be) plan and battle. Awesome.
kanageddaamen wrote:
JesterOC wrote:
vodokar wrote:
vodokar wrote:
iserith wrote:
vodokar wrote:
iserith wrote:
Had they gone through Wave Echo Cave, yet? Therein is a suit of Plate Armor that would've granted benefits versus the dragon. I can't recall whether it's resistance or advantage that it grants, at the moment.
tallric_kruush wrote:
vodokar wrote:
iserith wrote:
I elected not to charge the dragon an action to make a strength check. I felt that would definitely stack the favor too much against the dragon. For that reason, he was allowed to still use his breath weapon at range or melee attacks to a closer target and still make the save at the end of the round. The intent was to reward good planning, not trivialize a great encounter.
As it was, he was restrained for 2 rounds, attack-wise, but defense-wise, actually only one, as he had initiative the second round and made the save to clear the condition prior to the second round of pc attacks.
Even if he hadn't made his save on the 2nd round, I still would have freed the dragon regardless, because that is what is best for the story and the encounter. I wanted to reward good thinking, not remove all risk.
My plan of action for the dragon was to have the dragon breath on turn one, free himself on turn 2, make a strong attack on turn 3 and fly away on turn 4, if he was below 50% hp and > 0.
The pc plan was to try to keep him restrained for 2 to 3 rounds and pray that they could get enough damage in before he flew away. The pc's beat the odds by connecting with enough damage just in time. It came down to the last attack on round 3. If the rogue had missed, the dragon would have flown off.
How I adjudicated the pc's plan of action may not have been the perfect way of handling it, and may not have followed every rule to the T, but it was adjudicated on the spot without spending an hour searching through rules -- not that there is currently much to follow, given that all we have is a 32 page starter rule book and a approx. 100 page Basic rule book, that doesn't cover every possible thing that may come up -- but it told the story that we were trying to tell, in that, a group of level 4 heroes, using mostly their own whiles and ingenuity, took down the fiercest opponent currently in the game, just barely in the nick of time, literally, before it escaped.
I gave the PC's a touch of help in being slightly liberal in the rules the first round of combat, but, the outcome was very far from certain. As much help that was given in the PC's favor in the first round, was also extended to the dragon, in that he was still able to attack while trying to break free. Ultimately, the players made the rolls they needed in significant proportion to win the fight fair and square. In the end, I was pleased with the encounter. A couple rolls could have ended up leaving at least a character or two dying or seen the dragon fly away.
The best DM's I've ever played with, since 1978 on, always consider the story tantamount to dotting the I's and crossing the T's with regards to rules. Rulings, not Rules and keep the game fair and flowing. I won't ever be as good a DM as some of those I have played with, but in the end, we all had fun, and that's what keeps us playing.
Besides, this won't be the last dragon they ever face. Plenty of time to turn the tables on them.
vodokar wrote:
Yes, in this case we were rolling initiative every round. I don't usually do this if I'm playing at the tabletop due to time constraints, however, I play mostly over the internet using a Virtual Tabletop software called Fantasy Grounds, so it is so much quicker and easier to keep the game flowing and it is very easy to reroll initiative every round.
I usually roll initiative and just go with the rolls unless there is something very critical story wise that needs to happen -- in this case, I moved the Dragon's initiative up front of round during his second turn being restrained to make sure he could end the restrained effect before the players took thier turns. I then rolled his save successfully, but as I had indicated, I would have overrode the roll if he hadn't, because it would have been too much for him to be restrained for longer than one round.
This is pretty indicative of my DM style regarding all dice rolls and adjudications. About 90% of the time, I just let the dice fall as they may. and I let the players see my rolls. However, every once in a while, when I feel something is so critical for the story and maintaining the excitement of the game, I roll using a dice tower or behind the screen and modify the results if necessary or just use Fiat to make the event happen without paying attention to the dice. When I do this, it is to preserve the excitement of the story and encounter, and I don't explain to the players what I was doing. In the old days of D&D, it was implicit that the DM occasionally did this, though some modern games, such as Savage Worlds, have given explicit rules to allow the NPC's to cheat fate at critical points in the plot.
I am also not criticizing your constructive critisicm of my technique. I also have the opportunity to learn from this experience. What decisions I made in the heat of battle may not be the same ones I would have made with more time to think about it, however, at the time, I came up with something I thought would be reasonable, kept the game flowing, and made adjustments on the fly. That is all any DM can and should be expected to do. Stopping the game session for an hour looking up rules is the exact opposite of what a DM should do. In the end, it all works out. The story and game session moves on. If things went too well for the players, the DM can learn from the experience and tighten things up a little next time. If things went poorly from the players and it was due to the DM's decisions, there are also ways to compensate things. The important thing is just to keep the game moving and keep everyone having fun.
You made some very good points regarding this scenario. I did not and would not reccomend using the rules for a normal net weapon to inform the design of this specific type of net for the dragon. I used mostly the web spell and other type of restraining spells as reference, and even then, I didn't actually pull out the book and read it at the table, I just went with my recollection and gut feeling. That is why it worked more like a web or charm monster or other type of restraining spell than it did a net. I wasn't going for realism here, just something workable.
vodokar wrote:
The benefit of rolling initiative every round is that it rewards the characters that are fast. For example, if you roll once before the encounter and your fast character, such as the rogue, makes a bad roll and comes in last, he is stuck with it the entire combat. If you roll every round, on average, he will end up being first most of the time.
The downside is that when it comes to keeping track of lengths of conditions, you also have to record the iniative count that it was placed, so that you get the full duration. For example, an ogre stuns me on iniative count 5 while I am initiative count 1 and it's supposed to be until the ogre's next turn. I then roll initiative 20 and the Ogre rolls 15. The stun still should not expire until initiative count 5, vice 15. Again, this is a pain to track by hand, but very easy using a fully featured virtual tabletop.
I have used Roll20. It's ok and getting better, but I would still highly reccomend Fantasy Grounds. There is no comparison.
They waited till the dragon was asleep and succeeded on stealth rolls.
Nope, on the contrary. The party I was DMing was 3rd level when they decided to go to Thundertree. They ignored all the warning signs on the way to the tower. When they found him, they decided to show him a smackdown and confidently rolled Initiative. On his turn he let loose with his breath weapon. They all failed their save and proceded die horribly in a cloud of noxious vapors. First TPK I have had in a long time. The look on their faces was priceless. Next week we start HotDQ. I hope they learned their lesson.
jackbytor wrote:
When I run this scene, I will have Venomfang toy with the characters and tell them a lie that he's actually a copper dragon named Patina who was"tarnished" by an evil curse, then see if he can manipulate them (particularly goody two-shoes types) into performing some kind of ultimately evil quest that furthers the dragon's goals. "Green dragons delight in subverting and corrupting the good-hearted" (page 63, Phandelver) after all. If they buy the lie, it will lead to new adventure. If they don't, Venomfang will show them no mercy!
I had the druid in town warn my players that the dragon was formidable and that a frontal assault would be suicide. The PCs encountered the cultists, and with a bit of clever Deception managed to convince them that they, too, were devotees of the dragon, but were not worthy to bask in its presence, and so if the cultists would like to go this evening to entreat with the dragon, they would be very happy to keep watch and make sure no zombies or spiders or anything interfered with their meeting with the glorious beast. The cultists agreed and specified the time when they would be approaching the dragon.
Instead, the fastest/sneakiest PCs lured the zombies out of the building in the northeast of town and led them on a merry chase right to the dragon's tower, timing it for the same moment when the cultists were approaching and commencing with the chanting and the worshipfulness.
So the dragon pokes his head out to see a bunch of annoying cultists and a bunch of ash zombies disturbing his sleep, and kills (almost) all of them with his breath weapon. THEN the PCs burst out and start attacking.
Fabulous stroke of luck #1: The dragon doesn't get his breath weapon back the whole fight.
Fabulous stroke of luck #2: Later in the fight a straggler ash zombie dies next to the dragon, and the dragon fails its save, thereby putting its attacks at disadvantage the following round.
Fabulous stroke of luck #3: The wizard uses the scroll of fireball she found in the bandit lair, has to roll since she's not high enough level to cast the spell herself, and it works. That's not the luck -- she had advantage from using an inspiration. The luck was a damage roll of 5's and 6's with maybe one 4.
The dragon did manage to up and start flying away on its next action after that. I described it shooting straight up into the sky, thinking that was over, when the archery fighter asked if it was still in range of his longbow. Well ... yes. A dragon with a smarter DM probably would have hugged the treetops a little closer on its way out. But I gave him his last ditch shot, and what does he do? He crits it. Dragon dies. Pretty epic fun.
Jackbytor and Peaseblossom each have a memorable experience. Neither of those will soon be forgotten, TPK nor miraculous triumph.
My parties fight with Venomfang was interesting We were only level 3 and went to fight the Dragon. The Dragon full attacked my character and hurt me pretty badly. (I also could not run away from the dragon due to being on a ladder as I was trying to sneak into it's lair from the side.) Our Cleric blessed the party and we started fighting. We did a tiny bit of damage. The Dragon breathed on me but rolled really really poorly for damage and thanks to bless I passed my save and was still up. I jumped off the later rather then climbing down due to the fact it was ruled if I suddenly fell the dragon would not have time to AoO me and the falling damage was better then getting full attacked again. The Got it's breath weapon back the next round and breathed on the Cleric and one of the Wizards. The cleric was a dwarf and he made his saving throw so he did not take a lot of damage. While the Wizard survived due to the bless but was dropped.
The other Fighter and Wizard in the party combined with the Cleric's spirtultal and weapon and a crit from his guiding bolt managed to drive off the dragon leaving it with 40 hp before it flew away. We were very happy. All of us lived and at level 3 we managed to chase away a dragon.
Peaseblossom wrote:
JesterOC wrote: