Hiya folks,
I've been running a game for my players for about six months now using 5th edition and I seem to be having some issues providing a challenging encounter for my group. This is an experienced collection of players which consists of fighter, cleric, rogue, sorcerer, and warlock. All of them are now 6th level and running through any type of smaller sized room their strategy consists of:
Fighter opens door
Warlock casts Hunger of Hadar
Fighter closes door and stands in front of it, preventing monsters from exiting until properly tenderized
Mop up survivors with remainder of party
Repeat ad nauseum
So I think there's obvious ways around this particular tactic, but I'm just generally having trouble providing a challenging encounter to my group.
Is anyone else having this problem with their groups? Have you found anything outside the typical "increase number/encounter level" handles that a GM has to turn? Would you have any suggestions for an experienced 3.5 GM coming to 5e for the first time?
Thanks!
Fighter opens door roof collapses???
Alduran wrote:
Some quick, from-the-hip thoughts and reactions:
1) Why so many doors?
2) By level six, why aren't there any counter-spelling baddies?
3) Are there no other entrances to the rooms being impacted by Hunger of Hadar? Why not have the monsters retreat?
4)Non-linear dungeon design/encounter design--So they slam the door shut after casting Hunger of Hadar, and then the baddies scream and rage and are wounded. There buddies down another corridor hear it, rush to see--and the party is suddenly flanked.
5) Crooked paths, tiered rooms. WWI, the trenches were zig-zag shaped so enemies couldn't just shoot straight down their corridors to kill each other. Build the dungeons so they are shaped in a way that AoE spells cover less total space. And if that seems cruel, remember--your players live in a world where architects and wizards and monsters know that splash effects happen--why wouldn't they make nice, defensive spots?
6) Traps?
7) Illusions?
8) Entering different rooms from different angles. Why does a dungeon extend along a 2-d map (obviously, we're dealing with 2-d maps on our table, buuut work with me)? Why not have the "Door" to the next area be a hole in the ceiling? Why not make it so that going into the next area has them slipping down through a really tight hole (think: spelunking)?
I think this is a really rich opportunity for you as a DM. This is problem solving at it's most difficult and rewarding: how do you shake up a party when they are feeling confident in one of their tactics?
Actually all things considered this was a better answer...
fepriest wrote:
Alduran wrote:
fepriest hit a lot of good points, although I will repeat for emphasis rooms should have multiple exits, even in the case where it's supposed to be just an undeveloped natural cave.
Also, sentries. Why are the hallways unguarded? Unless its a totally civillian area there should be sentries placed in groups of at least 2 whose primary mission is not to fight and die but to raise the alarm to the rest of the complex, at which point a coordinated defense/counter-strike should take place.
Wrt to curved tunnels. If the tunnels are well lit they should be long and straight, if the hallways are dark and used by darkvision using creatures the visibility cutoffs should correspond to the home creatures' darkvision range, and, again, in all situations, there should be sentries placed to take advantage of these locations. There should be a minimum of 2X many non-sentry combatants as there are sentries.
Basically, your creatures can't guard jack diddly from a closed room. You're just handing out free XP at that point.
Yup, this is a simple case of if you want different results from your players you actually have to put them in a different scenario than they are used to - rote procedures like these don't just happen, they happen because the strategy worked when first used, and when next used, and then again with no reason to expect it not to work again still.
Here Are some amazing articles by The Angry GM. They tell you exactly how to do this.
I would suggest startin with part three, (the first link), because it will give you some examples that will really help you.
http://theangrygm.com/the-angry-guide-to-kickass-combats-part-3-lets-make-some-fing-fights-already/
http://theangrygm.com/the-angry-guide-to-kicka-combats-part-2-battlefields-and-battlefeels/
http://theangrygm.com/the-angry-guide-to-akicking-combats-part-1-picking-your-enemies/
Here are some easy to implement ideas I use:
1) Have other monsters hear the battle and investigate from a different direction.
2) If possible, come at the PCs from more than one front.
3) Overwhelm them with numbers.
4) Don't give the Warlock time to take a short rest until at least 3 or 4 encounters. Then he can't use his spell slot magic in every encounter.
5) Casters as foes (area of effect attacks and counterspell are awesome)
6) Like others said, trap the door or have it make a lot of noise when it opens.
7) Use spells and ranged weapons to attack the group before they close the door.
8) Have the bad guys hide so that the players have to enter the room first. Then surprise!!!
9) Make sure there is variety so that players/PCs don't always expect foes on the other side of a door.
10) Have the door actually be a mimic that guards the room. lol.
Good luck.
A few things I've found effective (to be used sparingly not constantly)
Guerilla Tactics: Holes in the walls or ceiling, enemies shoot at players. Enemies hiding in crooks and crannies jump at as players walk past. Enemies don't need to be stationary and if they are they could still have cover and defensive locations. This type of fighting leaves the players in a constant threat mode (that's why it is effective tactics). Also, Warlock gets only two spells per short rest, make him use them up in two rooms then harry them while they try and get that 1 hour rest.
Hostages: I haven't used this one, but if there is a pile of friendly npcs in the room then the warlock can't just kill everything in the room. Tactics would need to be changed to account for this.
Make sure to consider height as well. Spiders clinging to a 30 ft ceiling are probably out of range of the orb of ridiculous that is Hunger of Hadar.
One specifically cool thing to counter the Hunger spell is that no one can see in or out of it, so if the enemy escapes out the back no one knows what happened to him. Like other people suggested, hae him sneak up on the party or get reinforcements. If the enemy has people ready then the fighter gets a nasty surprise when he opens the door (arrows or fireballs)
Also, change the scenery. Fighting in a forest, a mountainside, or some city streets offers different ways to challenge players and mixes things up signifigantly.
Finally, don't be afraid to cut loose and send almost certain death after them, or leave monsters as traps. If the dungeon is big enough set some flameskulls up. Unless defeated properly they just come back to life after an hour, and they are nasty spellcasters, CR 4 so completely level appropriate.
Hope I was helpful
Thanks for all the replies so far. A second (or third) wave would be ideal, but in reading some folks' comments I realize there are a few problems that I need to address:
- I'm using 3D terrain which means that the players can basically see the layout of each room. I need to go back to map markers and a play mat.
- I've been limited due to the number of doors that I can use, and in that I've also been limiting my monsters having multiple exits and alternative avenues of approach.
- Guards have been silenced previously (conditioning me not to use them); however, this should be revisited.
This one is on me trying to make use of terrain that limits rather tactics, basically creating XP handouts as Yakuba stated previously. Again - I appreciate it! A cold set of eyes is what was needed in this and I feel a bit better to try to make a more challenging encounter.
Enemies with push and pull effects are another great way to solve this problem. Also there're a variety of teleporters and other enemies that can move through characters' spaces.
I highly recommend having them fight three or four wraiths teamed up with an enemy cleric who know's either bless or bane. Your players will literally poop their pants.
Just once, for kicks, I'd do it to them. They go into the room to mop up and the monsters come up from behind, drop a hunger of hadar in the room and close the door. The look on their faces when their tactic is used against them will be priceless.
Also, you mentioned 3d terrain. A good trick I've used is to cover the sections that they haven't explored with cloth or paper so that they can't see what's coming up. Otherwise if you'd like to be able to pre-draw things I've found that gaming paper (gamingpaper.com) is a good way to do it.
Chaosmancer wrote:
Rhenny wrote:
Put a dweomervore (something that eats spells) in the room. Maybe in a cage, too, so it looks like the enemy doesn't quite know what to do with it either. They'll still getr the sound effects from Hunger of Hadar but a very different end result.
When I introduced my son to D&D, the most dangerous encounter was an ORC who hid behind the door when he opened it, waited while he walked in to investigate the Treasure Chest (TM) against the far wall, then slammed the door shut behind him and backstabbed him.
Have an assassin sit quietly in a dark niche while the party goes by, then Cunning Action to Dash and Sneak Attack whoever is in back. With surprise, he should give the Cleric something to do.
A couple of Kobolds wearing one-gem Necklace of Fireball. If the party lets the Fighter take down the minions with his sword...
Opening one door - which is marked in a language they can't read - causes a wall of water to come out. This was the cistern. Describe wedges holding the door shut and a very obvious "beer keg tap" at about waist level. (The cistern was installed as an afterthought.)
You guys are the best! You have some great ideas that I can implement later. Luckily my group has pretty much finished the castle (numerous small rooms with single points of entry) but there's enough in here that I can use in the future to make them mix it up a little bit.
I wouldn't allow a spell that has a target to be maintained from total cover (the other side of the closed door and walls). "A clear path to the target" PHB p. 204 makes that point clear.
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so you can't be behind total cover.
The "something" can be a creature, object or point of origin as per Hunger of Hadar.
Edit: In fact, the second paragraph in that section states the effect takes place on the "near side of the obstruction"! No-one would be that nasty to their players, would they?
I allways try to make my combat encounter varied and different, not really to try to get one over on my players but more to make sure that the fights are entertaining and combat doesnt get boring.
Here are some examples from my recent games of how ive been doing.
In my Ravenloft game im about to start the players are heading into a goblin den. Since its a natural cavern complex and a goblin warren ive designed the map so there are plenty of side chambers and narrow passageways + bad lighting so it will be tricky for them to get a good overview. As the players make their way through the complex there are a few lone goblin sentries on watch who if not stopped will try to run of and warn the bigger groups and since the layout is so chaotic the goblins will attack from several directions, making it harder to just box them all in with a AoE.
In my Dark Sun chronicle ive been running we do alot of fighting outdoors. One time I had some burrowing monsters just burst up around the players out of the sand dunes, another time the players walked into a sandtrap and fell were sucked down into the ground to emerge in the middle of a large chamber in a giant ant nest with tunnels on all sides and yet another encounter the players actually spotted a group of bandits they had heard about from a distance at night (By seeing their campfire). Which allowed the group to sneak up on the bandits and be the ones doing the ambushing.
We did have a more traditional dungeon just last session, a former water temple now turned into a place for silt worship by a nasty tribe of monsters. I had an initial group of sentries by the entrence, which was designed as a large chamber with some interior walls breaking it up to make maneuvering and line of site more interesting. There was also a typical chamber were the players bottle necked the monsters by the entrence only to find out that there was a secret back entrence that allowed half the monsters to escape and emerge behind the playters to flank them. That last one might be the most relevant for your situation. There was also a large chamber with pillars scattered around and most of the monsters were summoned into the room once the players were deep inside. The final chamber that wasnt just a kick downt he door and slay the monsters room (cause there were a few of those to) was a large inner sanctum with differences in height and a large pool of Silt in which undead creatures were hiding and didnt attack until the players were climbing up the platform to get to the central altar.
So my general tip would be: Use terrain, keep the sitatuions varied and interesting and get creative with what kind of resistance the players are going up against.
By the way, this is a terrific thread. Ones like this that offer concrete suggestions and retell personal experiences without judgment are the best! Kudos to all.