Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 The_Spoony_Bard Oct 25, 2014 14:50:34	I've been following the debate you guys had about telegraphing traps, and it got me wondering if those of you who do so also telegraph your "social traps".    My feelings on telegraphing traps of any kind is somewhat mixed.  On one hand, if using physical traps as a goctha is bad, then using a social trap in the same way is doubly so.  As a DM, I don't want to foster the kind of paranoia that has players poking every floor tile with a 10-foot pole for fear of traps or strapping every NPC they talk to to a polygraph machine because they fear being lied to.   On the other hand, I have to believe most creatures who set traps go to great lengths to ensure they're not easily detected.  Sure, the goblins' simple snars and deadfalls might be obvious to anyone even half paying attention.  But those guarding the secret entrance to the Thieves' Guild headquarters are likely to be far more cleverly desgined and deftly concealed.    In the same vein, not every dishonest person is going to have so obvious a tell.  Sure, the merchant being coerced by the Thieves' Guild to feed the players false information might have a noticiable nervous tick.  But the career politician who's hired an assassin to dispose of his rival is probably a far more skilled a liar.   On a related note, I'm wondering if and how those of you who telegraph traps do so for magical traps.  Does the Glyph of Warding inscribed inside the evil wizard's desk drawer make the hair on the back of your party's wizard stand on end, prompting the use of a Detect Magic (or similar) spell?  Or do you take other steps to ensure magic traps are no more hidden than their physical counterparts so that anyone, magic-user or not, can detect them well before they're triggered?
#2 bawylie Oct 25, 2014 15:19:21	I think I'm unclear on what a social trap is.
#3 The_Spoony_Bard Oct 25, 2014 15:27:59	bawylie wrote:
#4 iserith Oct 25, 2014 15:34:33	I think I understand what the OP means. Much like how using "gotcha" traps naturally encourages players to tap everything with a 10-foot pole, cagey, quirky NPCs that stonewall the players or lie to them similarly causes players to be suspicious of every NPC they meet. This tends to lead to requests for spamming Wisdom (Insight) checks or abundant use of the ol' zone of truth.   So yes, I telegraph an NPCs attempts at subterfuge in some way. Perhaps they have a tell or they provide information that contradicts information I know the players have. If they're playing attention and interacting with the scene, they'll naturally pick up on it and make some assumptions and conclusions. If they take action to try and determine if the NPC is lying, I might then ask for a Wisdom (Insight) check to confirm what they believe with some cost for failure.   As for magical traps, yes, I telegraph those as well. If you look at the glyph of warding spell, it says that detecting it might call for an Investigation check which implies that some measure of poking around and looking at clues is expected. Without clues, there really cannot be any investigation.
#5 Ansbach Oct 25, 2014 23:35:14	It depends on what you mean by "telegraphing".  If you mean do I always give clues in my GM's description immediately proceeding the trap, no.  My opinion is that traps can also be telegraphed by circumstance alone, and can therefore still be physically hidden while not being a surprise no-fun "gotcha" trap.  So I tend to use a mix.  Lethality and frequency are also huge factors.   Example: with a NPC that is about to betray the party, I won't always telegraph the trap during the big meeting by giving the PCs descriptions of tells, nervous glances, lies caught in the act, or a bead of sweat on the brow.  Like you said, some NPCs are going to be better at deception than others.  However, I will make certain that the betrayal is not a gotcha by providing the PCs opportunities to discover the deception ahead of time.  Failing to do so before the meeting is, in essence, failing to detect the trap.  It just might have happened a scene or two ago.   I deal with magical traps the same way as non-magical traps - you bet they can be completely hidden.  But the circumstances should give smart players a clue that it might be wise to search the area first.  So an undecteable Glyph of Warding inside a desk drawer should be forshadowed in some manner - maybe there was an earlier, more visible glyph of warding, or the PCs received information that the Wizard liked to use glyphs.     Regardless of how you handle traps the main point that I think most experienced GMs agree on is that realistic, deadly traps aren't usually much fun for the players.  You have to give a little on the realism for the sake of enjoyment.   So the short version is that I agree with you Spoony Bard, but don't have mixed feelings about it because I found a solution that works well in my games. I don't want to foster paranoia, but I also think some traps can't be detected and shouldn't be telegraphed in the description of the scene.  In those cases, I usually* make certain that the circumstances 'telegraph' the trap.     * I say usually because there are a few specific instances where I am OK with non-telegraphed traps - such as a small non-lethal trap that is part of a larger combat encounter - but that's a slightly different topic.
#6 cowleymen Oct 25, 2014 19:18:34	At least for social, make a roll for the NPC against party passive insight( or perception, I could see an arguement for either or in looking for social tells). The better or worse that the roll is the more or less you tellegraph, and to which character notices these things. Unless the NPC is actually themed that way, most people can manage a decent lie
#7 Noon Oct 27, 2014 0:34:51	I think it's only a problem if you're railroading the PC's into dealing the the lying NPC.   And since folk often wont identify themselves as railroading (unless caught at it), alternate version; I think it's only a problem if you have an A to B to C script that makes the PC's deal with the lying NPC.
#8 Theros Oct 27, 2014 7:10:53	There’s a hidden acid trap in hoard of the dragon queen whose trigger was a locked chest. There was no way to visually detect the trap so they linked it to the Dex check to open the chest.   At DC15 or higher the character opens the chest, detects the trap and avoids setting it off. At DC10-14 they unlock the chest but trigger the trap. At DC9 or lower they failed to open the chest and still trigger the trap.   A bit off topic but the same methodology could be used for social traps.
#9 sleypy Oct 27, 2014 11:39:14	Social situation tend to lend themselves to telegraphing anyway since you know what your getting into when you go chat with the thieves guild, negotiate deals with fey, etc. I don't think you need to telegraph lies unless the party only has a single source of information.   A untelegraphed lies work well when the stakes are making life harder vs making life easier. I would suggest that most information be accurate and there be ways to coaburate information.