Fighter sub-class: tactician

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mictrepanier Jun 16, 2015 9:45:19	Fighter sub-class: tactician I just re-do my december 2014 scout sub-class as a fighter archetype. This is non-magical archetype that rely on intelligence. Intelligence as a secondary class. is only useful for wizards eldritch knights and skill lovers so i`ll give more dept Intuit cover (level 3) When you are targeted by an attack, you can use a reaction to move up to your speed, and may drop prone, before determining whether the attack hits or misses. (You can move behind cover if it exists, including your allies, and prone protects against ranged attacks.) Additionally, allies who can hear you may also take a reaction to do the same. Intelligence save(level 3) You gain proficiency in Intelligence saving throw. Maneuvers Analysis (level 7) Humanoids attacks are still unpredictable, but your found a pattern in maneuvers. Your checks against being Disarmed, Grappled, Overrun, Shoved, Tumbled past, or Pushed Aside are advantaged, as are your saving throws against Battle Master maneuvers. You also get advantage on ST saves caused by non- magical means. Analysing Defense Patterns (level 10) You get a damage bonus against a specific humanoid race equal to your intelligence modifier, as you can analyse defense patterns You should observe the creature in advance for at least one minute or success perception roll of dc 15 if only taking one action, All allies hearing your instructions get half your intelligence bonus, round down, against the same creature. More than one race can be analysed at the same time. You can only analyse one race at once. at 18th level, this bonus apply to all monsters. Analytical Mind(level 15 ) this feature is from wdalright (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B65bZeJ2KziZZk8xLVVUbU9SeVE/view) At 15th level, you can substitute your Intelligence score and modifier for your Wisdom score and modifier for purposes of saving throws and ability checks. You are considered proficient in Wisdom saving throws.
#2 transcendantviewer Jun 16, 2015 10:18:53	It seems like a good start, but some of the abilities are a bit wonky and need refinment.
#3 mictrepanier Jun 16, 2015 10:27:08	Second part of always a cover is brand new. The rest was created months ago. Your opinion ? I removed my scout references to make it a intelligent fighter...
#4 transcendantviewer Jun 16, 2015 21:45:24	I guess I don't see exactly how this could work as a solid class specialization. This seems more like something a player would sit down and work out with their DM mid-combat. Like... "The lightning bolt flashes forward. Roll a Dex Save." To which the player replies "Can I instead use my spear to arc the lightning into the ground?" The DM says "You can try, but it's still going to be a Dex Save. Make it at Disadvantage because you're performing something more complicated than just jumping out of the way. If you succeed, you'll take no damage." The idea of reinforcing tactical thought is great, I condone that, but making it into a class does two things; first, it breeds powergamers that think tactically just for its gains, and second it makes players feel like they have to follow a specific path in order to use those benefits. D&D is nonlinear. You want to play a Monk with a crap Wisdom? Go for it. You want that monk to then use their Intelligence in place of Wisdom? Talk with your DM, it could be done. Want to build a Barbarian that never rages, but instead diffuses situations with threats of force? Be my guest. I'll just modify the Intimidation Skill to run off your Strength Score instead.
#5 mictrepanier Jun 17, 2015 7:43:48	Transendantviewer, i don't understand at all what you reference to. My features give no dex save substitution at all.
#6 transcendantviewer Jun 17, 2015 7:23:22	It's not a reference, it's an example. The basic idea of this Archetype doesn't seem like it's enough. It feels more like it should just be some variant rules that the players and DM agree on. My example above was a demonstration of a similar concept; the ability to use tactics to get the upper hand, rather than strictly mechanics.
#7 mictrepanier Jun 17, 2015 7:47:14	ANALYTICAL MIND is not my feature... It may improve up to +50% the save success, but it is a 15th level and the character will have low WIS saves for the 14th fist level... And the lines between WS/CH/IN saves are blurred; in older editions, in other game systems, there are usually not 3 differents mental stats...
#8 transcendantviewer Jun 17, 2015 9:26:42	I don't think we're on the same page, here. It's not the mechanics that are the issue, or even the features, it's the overall premise. The idea that you have to take this archetype to act tactically in a fight. The features that you described in the archetype don't strike me as things that should be class features, but instead that they should be rules specific to a game that the DM approves of. For instance, the ability to hit the deck for a better chance of succeeding on a saving throw, that should probably be a variant rule that the DM chooses to allow or dismiss in their game. The level 7 feature seems like it belongs there, but feels more like a ribbon ability, due to how unlikely it is to actually be useful against anything other than another PC. The level 10 feature feels like it's just the Bless spell in different words. The 15th level feature seems appropriate.
#9 mictrepanier Jun 17, 2015 10:42:02	transcendantviewer wrote:
#10 transcendantviewer Jun 17, 2015 18:26:56	As a variant rule, they may push and disarm and whatnot, but that's up to the DM. It's best not to establish a feature that entirely depends upon the use of variant rules to be useful. The benefit to saving throws isn't bad, but still limited. As for the first pair of abilities, the first problem is phrasing. It's hard to fullly understand what's being said in the description due to the language you used. Also, giving something a set DC like 15 is a bit one-sided. What you could do instead is have the DC be the target's Armor Class +1. That way, it remains relivant throughout the game and makes the use of the feature somewhat more difficult, as to not have it become easy to abuse.
#11 mictrepanier Jun 18, 2015 5:46:31	How can you need an higher DC for someone with higher Ac ? The armor is heavier ? What about unarmormed and dextreous ones ?
#12 transcendantviewer Jun 18, 2015 7:48:26	It's the same principal. You're using your intellect to overcome their defenses, striking where it hurts. Barbarians have durability (Reflected in their battle rage and in their Con mod to AC). You work your way around that. Monks have foresight and attempt to dodge your attacks as best they can. You make yourself unpredictable to them. This ability reflects upon that, but you can only make it work if this check succeeds, and the better someone's defenses, the harder it will be to succeed.
(Reply to #12) mictrepanier	transcendantviewer wrote:
#14 Macv12 Jun 18, 2015 18:23:43	Independent of the current discussion; please carry on. mictrepanier wrote:
(Reply to #14) mictrepanier	There is Always Cover (level 3)
(Reply to #14) mictrepanier	[ Maneuvers Analysis (level 7) Humanoids attacks are still unpredictable, but your found a pattern in maneuvers. Your checks against being Disarmed, Grappled, Overrun, Shoved, Tumbled past, or Pushed Aside are advantaged, as are your saving throws against Battle Master maneuvers.
#17 mictrepanier Jun 19, 2015 9:15:34	Humanoid races only at 11th level. at 18th level, this bonus apply to all monsters. I updated the main post.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

mictrepanier

Jun 16, 2015 9:45:19

I just re-do my december 2014 scout sub-class as a fighter archetype. This is non-magical archetype that rely on intelligence. Intelligence as a secondary class. is only useful for wizards eldritch knights and skill lovers so i`ll give more dept

Intuit cover (level 3)

When you are targeted by an attack, you can use a reaction to move up to your speed, and may drop prone, before determining whether the attack hits or misses. (You can move behind cover if it exists, including your allies, and prone protects against ranged attacks.) Additionally, allies who can hear you may also take a reaction to do the same.

Intelligence save(level 3)

You gain proficiency in Intelligence saving throw.

Maneuvers Analysis (level 7)
Humanoids attacks are still unpredictable, but your found a pattern in maneuvers. Your checks against being Disarmed, Grappled, Overrun, Shoved, Tumbled past, or Pushed Aside are advantaged, as are your saving throws against Battle Master maneuvers. You also get advantage on ST saves caused by non- magical means.

Analysing Defense Patterns (level 10)

You get a damage bonus against a specific humanoid race equal to your intelligence modifier, as you can analyse defense patterns You should observe the creature in advance for at least one minute or success perception roll of dc 15 if only taking one action, All allies hearing your instructions get half your intelligence bonus, round down, against the same creature. More than one race can be analysed at the same time. You can only analyse one race at once.

at 18th level, this bonus apply to all monsters.

Analytical Mind(level 15 ) this feature is from wdalright (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B65bZeJ2KziZZk8xLVVUbU9SeVE/view)

At 15th level, you can substitute your Intelligence score and modifier for your Wisdom score and modifier for purposes of saving throws and ability checks. You are considered proficient in Wisdom saving throws.

transcendantviewer

Jun 16, 2015 10:18:53

It seems like a good start, but some of the abilities are a bit wonky and need refinment.

mictrepanier

Jun 16, 2015 10:27:08

Second part of always a cover is brand new.

The rest was created months ago. Your opinion ? I removed my scout references to make it a intelligent fighter...

transcendantviewer

Jun 16, 2015 21:45:24

I guess I don't see exactly how this could work as a solid class specialization. This seems more like something a player would sit down and work out with their DM mid-combat. Like... "The lightning bolt flashes forward. Roll a Dex Save." To which the player replies "Can I instead use my spear to arc the lightning into the ground?" The DM says "You can try, but it's still going to be a Dex Save. Make it at Disadvantage because you're performing something more complicated than just jumping out of the way. If you succeed, you'll take no damage."

The idea of reinforcing tactical thought is great, I condone that, but making it into a class does two things; first, it breeds powergamers that think tactically just for its gains, and second it makes players feel like they have to follow a specific path in order to use those benefits. D&D is nonlinear. You want to play a Monk with a crap Wisdom? Go for it. You want that monk to then use their Intelligence in place of Wisdom? Talk with your DM, it could be done. Want to build a Barbarian that never rages, but instead diffuses situations with threats of force? Be my guest. I'll just modify the Intimidation Skill to run off your Strength Score instead.

mictrepanier

Jun 17, 2015 7:43:48

Transendantviewer, i don't understand at all what you reference to. My features give no dex save substitution at all.

transcendantviewer

Jun 17, 2015 7:23:22

It's not a reference, it's an example. The basic idea of this Archetype doesn't seem like it's enough. It feels more like it should just be some variant rules that the players and DM agree on. My example above was a demonstration of a similar concept; the ability to use tactics to get the upper hand, rather than strictly mechanics.

mictrepanier

Jun 17, 2015 7:47:14

ANALYTICAL MIND is not my feature... It may improve up to +50% the save success, but it is a 15th level and the character will have low WIS saves for the 14th fist level... And the lines between WS/CH/IN saves are blurred; in older editions, in other game systems, there are usually not 3 differents mental stats...

transcendantviewer

Jun 17, 2015 9:26:42

I don't think we're on the same page, here. It's not the mechanics that are the issue, or even the features, it's the overall premise. The idea that you have to take this archetype to act tactically in a fight. The features that you described in the archetype don't strike me as things that should be class features, but instead that they should be rules specific to a game that the DM approves of. For instance, the ability to hit the deck for a better chance of succeeding on a saving throw, that should probably be a variant rule that the DM chooses to allow or dismiss in their game. The level 7 feature seems like it belongs there, but feels more like a ribbon ability, due to how unlikely it is to actually be useful against anything other than another PC. The level 10 feature feels like it's just the Bless spell in different words. The 15th level feature seems appropriate.

mictrepanier

Jun 17, 2015 10:42:02

transcendantviewer wrote:

#10

transcendantviewer

Jun 17, 2015 18:26:56

As a variant rule, they may push and disarm and whatnot, but that's up to the DM. It's best not to establish a feature that entirely depends upon the use of variant rules to be useful. The benefit to saving throws isn't bad, but still limited.
As for the first pair of abilities, the first problem is phrasing. It's hard to fullly understand what's being said in the description due to the language you used. Also, giving something a set DC like 15 is a bit one-sided. What you could do instead is have the DC be the target's Armor Class +1. That way, it remains relivant throughout the game and makes the use of the feature somewhat more difficult, as to not have it become easy to abuse.

#11

mictrepanier

Jun 18, 2015 5:46:31

How can you need an higher DC for someone with higher Ac ? The armor is heavier ? What about unarmormed and dextreous ones ?

#12

transcendantviewer

Jun 18, 2015 7:48:26

It's the same principal. You're using your intellect to overcome their defenses, striking where it hurts. Barbarians have durability (Reflected in their battle rage and in their Con mod to AC). You work your way around that. Monks have foresight and attempt to dodge your attacks as best they can. You make yourself unpredictable to them. This ability reflects upon that, but you can only make it work if this check succeeds, and the better someone's defenses, the harder it will be to succeed.

(Reply to #12)

mictrepanier

transcendantviewer wrote:

#14

Macv12

Jun 18, 2015 18:23:43

Independent of the current discussion; please carry on.

mictrepanier wrote:

(Reply to #14)

mictrepanier

There is Always Cover (level 3)

(Reply to #14)

mictrepanier

[

Maneuvers Analysis (level 7)

Humanoids attacks are still unpredictable, but your found a pattern in maneuvers. Your checks against being Disarmed, Grappled, Overrun, Shoved, Tumbled past, or Pushed Aside are advantaged, as are your saving throws against Battle Master maneuvers.

#17

mictrepanier

Jun 19, 2015 9:15:34

Humanoid races only at 11th level. at 18th level, this bonus apply to all monsters.

I updated the main post.