Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 WanderingBard May 12, 2015 12:33:26	Once again I'm reviewing the house rulings I made because I feel like I was to punitive on most of them. The 2nd major nerf I did was to the Druid Wild Shape   "While in Wild Form any damage taken will be received when reverting to human form. If this damage exceeds the hp the human form had before the transformation, the player will immediately be incapacitated and fail one death saving throw. When the damage taken while in Wild form exceeds the hp the PC has in their human form, they must make a CON check of 10 (+5 per turn). The players human form health with heal the difference in the CON modifier of the creature he transforms to if the CON modifier is higher than the PCs CON modifier" First off I want to clarify it because its too confusing, and 2nd I implemented it because theoretically Druids can heal indefinatley with transformations and become virtually unkillable. Is this a good fix? A bad one? Is wild shape really as broken as I think it is?
#2 Kentus May 12, 2015 13:02:22	WanderingBard wrote:
#3 DSZ May 12, 2015 15:14:53	So you are punishing the druid for its main strength. Because he is not strong in DMGe dealing. Wild shape is overpowerded at lvl 2, but this changes considerably later on. With your nerf using wild shape for fighting is absolutely usless and additionally, the druid will suffer from the solid chance of death. So what you effectively do is to take away an importand possibility for the druid to shine, to take one for the team. He can heal indefinately at lvl 20 and only then, a level where all classes get crazy things.   The severity of your nerf is equivalent to changing the fighters INDOMITABLE as follows: ...reroll a saving throw that you failed. If you do so, you must use the new roll and if you fail you are incapacitated and fail one death saving throw. If the damage you have taken in the fight exceeds your max HP, you must must make a CON check of 10 (+5 per turn).   If I would be playing a druid in your campaign and you did change as announced above I would talk to you and, if not taken back I would probably just leave and never come back. Yes, it is that ridiculous in my eyes. But hey, that is only me. Maybe your players are fine with it.   IMHO, the druid gets a bunch of hit points, true, but he is restricted using wild shape twice per short/long rest and to druid lvl/2 hours. I only wish it was a bit more evenly distributed during the levels, weaker at the beginning and a little bit stronger later on topping out on lvl 7 beasts.   @kentus "If you have a monk/druid/barbarian build for monk's unarmored AC, barbarians bear totem rage and the druids wild shape, I think this might be more concerning." This is not so concerning because you not only gain but also loose a lot. And if this seems to strong to you, I have seen a lot of discussions with reasonable arguments, that the druid will not be able to have the Monk's AC in beast form. Basically that this is totally up to the DM.
#4 Noctaem May 12, 2015 16:38:02	I think you should just remove all the nerfs and houserules you've created and just let the wildshape druid have his ability per the actual rules.  All of the stuff you've added is terrible.
(Reply to #4) WanderingBard	Noctaem wrote:
#6 Illithidbix May 13, 2015 18:01:03	What is it you actually want to nerf about Wildshape?  I agree it looks very good on paper, and is pretty effective (From both playing a Moon Druid, playing in a group with one and DMing for them) ... but I personally haven't actually found them problematic for the game myself.   I would suggest using the rules as they are, then apply nerfs if you feel they're actually needed after play If (and only if) it is found to be overpowerful in a way that is  "Less fun for the other players"(tm)    My standard 3 suggestions for Nerfs. Pick and choose which ones depending on your exact issue with Wildshape.   1) All the damage you have taken in Beast Form is applied to your normal HP when you shift out. - Almost identical to your suggestion. To deal with the wildshape HP being a vast pool of temp' hitpoints that soak damage and then that just disappears. It also encourages druids to use the "burn spellslots of Beast Form healing" which already exists.   If it's too brutal change it to "half the damage" or another fraction.   2) After you have shifted out of Beast Form you cannot use Wild Shape for 1 minute  (10 rounds)  (Regardless of whether the shift was voluntary or not) To prevent shifting into a bear, then shifting immediately back in again as you loose all your bear hitpoints. - This also deals with people whining about ArchDruid!     3) Reduce Wild Shape Max CR for level 2 and 3 Moon Druids. If you think that turning into a CR 1 creature is too good at low levels.   CR 1/2 for 2nd and 3rd level moon druids (Black Bears and Crocodiles) [Hell the Black bear still has 19 HP, like a 2nd level Fighter, but far lower AC and more reasonable attacks] CR 1 for 4-5 Druids (Brown Bears and Dire Wolves) CR 2 for level 6 etc (and continue with CR Level/3 from then on)
#7 supreme_slayer May 13, 2015 22:06:02	Except at levels 2 and 3, I have not found Druids (specifically Moon Druids in this case) to be greatly overpowered thus far. Having a player who played one, and playing one myself, there are some really neat forms and a variety of ways to do one thing really well, but the Moon Druid later on only seems so powerful compared to the Land Druid, who gains much less from their class features. If you're worried about power, just don't allow Monk/Barb multiclass to function with the transformation (since it is unclear if they would anyways) and maybe limit the forms they get at 2 and 3, instead of making it a death sentence to do the thing you were designed to do.   Your way is like telling a Barbarian that they take all the damage they resisted when they end their rage, or a Life Cleric that their extra healing disappears when a fight is over.
#8 Omnilicious May 15, 2015 15:00:16	The only thing I was considering tweaking was the ability to change into a CR 1 at level 2. Outside of that a balanced game play approach for DMing mitigates a ton of rule abuse and frankly balance isn't a main concern for me in an RPG as it isn't a video game.  I actually prefer delaying the CR 1 form not just because of how powerful it is at level 2 but because players leap right over Black Bear to Brown bear so soon it makes little sense to me. Even a Black Bear at level 2 is a damn good choice so I make that minor adjustment if only to allow that small spectrum of more balanced CR beasts available for use at the right time.   I personally do not see why this is so massive of an issue anyway as characters should advance through levels 1-2 rather fast and impacts on the campaign is minimal. Exploiting the more powerful abilities and mechanics will always happen but if a trent is spotted I instantly change scenarios to be extremely harsh against such tactics. A moon druid abusing form changing can only happen pre-level 20 twice before a short rest ... so make encounters push players so short rests can't be taken upon demand.   As others have stated, making tons of house rules often convolutes games more than helps them. Something odd for me to say such a thing from someone who played Palladium games for 30 years where house rules were rampant because the system sucked but D&D has always been the RP-friendly system where fluid game play enhances the game (This fell apart somewhat in 3.5 and 4e which is why I am enjoying 5e so much now).
#9 Xeviat-DM May 15, 2015 14:28:04	Looking at the HP gained from wildshape (2/short rest) is rather impressive compared to any other class's healing abilities. CR 1 forms look tough at 2nd level, but compared to the fighter they start evening out at 3rd even. Arch druid is the only thing that ultimately worries me; being able to bonus action turn back into a mammoth every turn means someone has to hit that druid with something like 123 damage in one round (possible for a cr 20 or two cr 8+) or else the druid is going to keep going forever.   I love house rules; they're what make D&D fun for me, that I can make it into the game I and my group want. We like balanced game play. Our first game had a ranger being constantly outshined by a barbarian, so our first house rules were some changes to Weapon Finesse (added dex to damage) and Two-Weapon Fighting (removed attack penalty for light weapons) and sneak attack (limited how often it could go off in a turn). 4E wasn't house-rule friendly (because it didn't need them, wahahahahahaha ... big JK), but 5E has me right back to my houseruling ways. So please don't poo on house rules, especially when someone is here to figure out how to best implement something. They're asking for your advice because they respect it.