Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Waghalter Jun 24, 2015 19:39:32	Hmm...I tried posting this in another thread but have no idea where it went. I'll try it here...    I plan to run the original AD&D giant series (G 1-3) in the near future (sometime this year) with a group of players who have rolled up characters specifically for this camapign (i.e. these are not long-lived, beloved characters nurtured from 1st level). I'm going all out using Mike Schley's awesome updated hi-res maps projected onto the table and an army of assorted giant figs at my disposal.   I have considered converting on a 1:1 ratio. For those familiar with G1, the Great Hall is a gong show. Now I could fairly easily modify the room and tone it down to a Hard or Deadly encounter, but the nostalgic side of me really likes the gong show of the party squaring off against 29 giants, 8 ogres and a cave bear. So I've been looking at other approaches and would like some feedback. To start, this will be a large group of eight 10th level characters, that will very likely catch the giants of the Great Hall by surprise. They are a smart bunch so they will not likely go toe-to-toe in the hall either, but rather draw them out, probably into some pre-prepared traps and such. I fully expect them to use these tactics and will give them plenty of time and opportunity to prepare their attack.    Still, there are way too many enemies to deal with. I calculated that the Great Hall encounter clocks in at 64,850 xp, or 194,550 adjusted xp (more than the tarrasque), which is way more than the party can handle. Now, the module states that "There is singing, talking, laughing, shouting, arguing, wrestling, joking, and the like going on...' as well as "...barrels and kegs of ale, beer, and mead..."  So its not a stretch to say the giants are stinkin' drunk. Applied to game terms, I could give them the poisoned condition (disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks) plus maybe 2 or 3 levels of exhaustion  each (which would further half their speed and add disadvantage to saves) if the party decided to wait until the feasting and drinking subsides. This, plus whatever else the players come up with like enchantment / charm magic to undermine the giants, could make this encounter the beserk battle it should be.    Under these conditions, is it enough (or too much) to give the party a fighting a chance? Any input would be appreciated!   Thanks.
#2 CCS Jun 25, 2015 3:28:57	Well, we beat this back in 1e, with 1e characters. And we only had 6 players & misc "help" (familiar & such). The key was trickery & not fighting ALL the Giants at once. I'd think 80 lvs of smart played 5e characters will do just fine. One of the things we did was poison their wine. Our assassin claimed a few. We introduced one or two to rot grubs. A few well used illusionist spells. There was a cockatrice chucked into one of the rooms. And we had several fights within the effects of Silence spells.
#3 Ath-kethin Jun 25, 2015 4:30:05	I love using old adventures, and you are right: on a 1:1 conversion, the XP awards will be through the roof. I just decided to use milestone advancement for the characters, and skip all the calculations. It requires keeping a close eye on things (since the large number of enemies/encounters can seriously tax a group's resources), but my group and I felt it worked out very well.
#4 Waghalter Jun 25, 2015 6:39:53	CCS wrote:
#5 iserith Jun 25, 2015 6:44:52	Waghalter wrote:
#6 DemoMonkey Jun 25, 2015 7:08:03	The difficulty of that encounter is strongly influnced by weather you can bombard the great hall with AOE spells  The last two times I did it (one group in 2E, one group in 3.5E) fireballs/walls of fire/flame strikes/blade barriers cast through a hole in the roof whittled it down enough the melee classes could thresh through the rest.   When considering the difficulty of that encounter, consider how much "artillery" the players can bring to bear.
#7 Waghalter Jun 25, 2015 9:22:59	iserith wrote:
#8 iserith Jun 25, 2015 9:30:05	I think the assumption that the players need to whittle through 3,750 hit points with their weapons to succeed is a trap for DMs. What are the monsters' goals? What will it take to thwart them outside of reducing them to 0 hit points? For example, is Grug secretly trying to get with the Hill Giant Chief's spearwife? What happens if the chief finds out because the PCs sneak around dropping clues for the chief to find? That's Grug dead and the chief wounded, perhaps. Are the orcs secretly disgruntled and waiting for an opportunity to rise up against the giants or to escape their jobs of cooking stirge pies? A PC disguised as the newest orc busboy might be what's needed to have the orcs take out a few giants before dying themselves. And so on.   I think a smart party gets the lay of the land first and then divides and conquers.
#9 Waghalter Jun 25, 2015 10:36:02	iserith wrote:
#10 iserith Jun 25, 2015 10:45:53	Waghalter wrote:
(Reply to #4) CCS	Waghalter wrote:
#12 jocanuck Jun 25, 2015 17:25:01	I DMed G1 and G2 during the playtest. I think the PCs were 10th level for G1. It was a large party 8 players and the PCs had henchmen plus a couple of NPCs. I setup G1 as an ambush and it turned into a 2 -1/2 session fight. I converted the monsters 1to1. I gave Nosnra (and the Jarl) ledgendary actions as well. I use a mashup of ad&d and 5e rules, using the ad&d version of cursed items, monster charm and sentient weapons. Have fun.
#13 Gwaithador Jun 25, 2015 18:11:43	Funny.I started "Against the Giants" two week ago.  I nearly had enough hill giant minis and painted giants to cover the main host. It actually looked pretty daunting on the table mat. I should have snapped a picture for show and tell.  My group however, totaled 15 strong, including NPC allies, with the core six PC group all 15th level and the rest of the NPCs between 10-12 level. They gained surprise against the drunk, partying giants, and had a good mix of character classes. They won without any casualties. It was an extraordinary battle. If you run it straight out of the module, as I did, with "stock" hill giants right out of the 5e MM, you simply cannot send 4-5 characters into this. Surprise is also critical. To keep track of  the hp for each mini. I cut up a bunch of paper "chits" and wrote the damage down and stuck it under the mini base or between the legs. I also did initiative differently. Rather than each individual roll for the PCs and NPCs. I had all the characters under the particular player go on the same initiative order. So, if "Bob" had a 14 initiative, all of his characters went at that rating. I found it made for speedier play, far less book keeping and kept anybody from accidentally being left out.  In a few weeks, we'll gather again and continue on the module.   It was crazy fun.  It took us 4.5 hours to finish, but it was memorable!
#14 Waghalter Jun 25, 2015 22:49:04	jocanuck wrote:
#15 Marandahir Jun 26, 2015 5:12:38	It might be worth taking a look at the 4e remakes of the Against the Giants adventures (including the Stone Giant Thane article); they could provide some additional inspiration as it's a much more modern version. Of course, 4e monster math doesn't line up well with 5e monster math either, but the periphery elements and reworked encounter design might be useful to you as a DM.
#16 jocanuck Jun 26, 2015 14:05:39	found my legendary Nosnra stats... too tough? ~~Legendary Nosnra (Hill Giant) AC: 21 (Mithral Shirt) Hit Points: 222 Speed: 50 ft., Leap 25ft. Str  21 (+5) Int 10 (0) Wis 10 (0) Dex 27(+8) Con 25 (+7) Chr 23 (+6) Actions: All hill giant actions plus… Ranged attack – Ballista: +8 to hit (range 120 ft. / 440 ft.) Hit: 22 (4d8+4) piercing (medium or smaller knocked prone). DC 15 Con saving throw. Failed: 11 (2d6+4) poison. Traits: Stealthy: Can hide when lightly obscured. Stealth check (+8) Thieves Reflexes: Two turns during first round of combat, second turn is initiative minus ten. Cannot use when surprised. Death strike: Attack and hit a surprised creature, it must succeed a CON saving throw (DC 18). Fail: Triple damage. Legendary Resistance: Three times per day Nosnra automatically succeeds on saving throws of his choice. Legendary Reflexes: With a reaction Nosnra can turn a crit into a normal hit. Legendary actions: Nosnra has two actions to use at the end of each turn. Can be used anytime up to the start of next turn. 2 actions – Reload and fire ballista. 1 action – leap up to 25ft. 1 action – disengage as to not provoke opportunity attacks 2 action – prepare quarrel with deadly poison. (CON saving throw, DC 17. Fail: target reduced to zero hit points)
#17 Waghalter Jun 26, 2015 17:31:46	Marandahir wrote:
#18 Gwaithador Jun 26, 2015 20:05:56	Just to be clear, it took us 4.5 hours to complete the main hall, not the entire module. I think the "chits" and initiative mechanic I used simplified it. I shall also add, the core PCs had a good amount of magic items, and that really made a difference. In hindsight, I think the six PCs and 3  of the NPCs might have been the right amount.