Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 doc_atomic Jul 05, 2015 17:02:47	I'm a little uncertain about how best to handle this: The players encounter a group of monsters. Everyone rolls initiative. Combat moves forward. So far, so good.    What at the players don't know is that a second wave of monsters are going to provide reinforcements at some point.    How do I bring that second wave into the fight? How do I handle their placement within the initiative order?    Can an they come in at any time I'd like? Should I wait for the top or bottom of a round? Do they end up going last?    I'd love some advice from other DMs on how to handle this, and hopefully in a way that doesn't bring combat to a screeching halt while I work out the mechanics.   Thanks!
#2 Varden_Khol Jul 05, 2015 17:29:38	When the PCs enter the room and are spotted I would have 1 of the enemy flee, maybe even have someone give the order to "Alert the others." That way the players will have to decide whether to try and intercept the runner, but stretch themselves out, or to prepare for whatever reinforcements are inbound. As for initiative and what round they should come in. I would determine the round by roughly estimating how long it would take the runner to get to the reinforcements and back. Maybe add an extra round for the putting on of armour and the grabbing of swords. If you've populated the location with enemies in specific places then it shouldn't be too hard to work this out. At the top of the round in which the reinforcements arrive I would give the players a warning or clue (sound of footsteps, a battlecry) and then roll initiative to see when the reinforcements come in. That way, PCs who rolled a good initiative can ready actions/prepare for the new enemies to burst in.
#3 doc_atomic Jul 05, 2015 18:03:07	I guess I'm just looking for how best to handle the mechanics of initiative when this new group of enemies shows up. If I've got three PCs and three enemies (for the sake of argument) and let's say the initiative order is PC 1, PC 2, Enemy 1, Enemy 2, PC 3, Enemy 3 (again, just for the sake of argument), how do you guys handle the introduction of new enemies? (We'll call them Enemies 4&5.)    Let's say we're in the middle of round two and Enemy 2 decides things look bad for her side so it's time to get some help. She uses the disengage action and then runs to another room to alert some friends.    PC 3 and Enemy 3 finish up the round.    Maybe it takes a round for the reinforcements to show up -- they're just in the other room.    So here we are, a round later, and Enemy 2 comes back in with Enemies 4&5. Let's be generous and say E2 gets her attack -- move back into the fight and attack. Cool, groovy.    When do E4 and E5 get to attack? They've already moved into the room -- out of turn, since movement is part of the turn, right? So...   I guess that's where I'm getting hung up. How do I then integrate E4 and E5 into the fight in a mechanically successful way that's also fair for the players.      It looks like you're suggesting that when that happens, I have everyone re-roll initiative. Do you find that to slow everything up too much? Create logistical issues?
#4 ankiyavon Jul 05, 2015 18:25:17	Why not simply roll initiative for anyone or anything new, then put them in place based on their roll?     It seems like you're overthinking this, or forgetting that initiative order is always rated by number anyway, so any new number should be effortless to slot into place.
#5 MechaPilot Jul 05, 2015 18:34:43	doc_atomic wrote:
#6 Nevvur Jul 05, 2015 18:46:29	1) If the waves overlap don't just note the initiative orders of all the participants in the first wave (including the PCs), record the actual initiative values, not just the initiative order. When the second wave shows up, roll their initiative and insert them in the order appropriately.   2) If more than 1 round of combat passes between the two waves, everyone rolls initiative when the second wave combat begins.
#7 Qzoo Jul 05, 2015 19:20:16	I feel it adds interest to the combat to give the 2nd wave their own order in the initiative.  Be sure the 2nd wave adds something different to the fight than just more numbers.  If it is a beast, perhaps the 2nd wave is a mate and some children.  If it is a town guard, perhaps the 2nd wave includes a spellcaster and a sargeant.  The idea is to add some new element to the combat that disorients things so far.   I especially like the idea of something simple like birds with a sonic attack able to break stone, followed by the appearance of a medusa.  I love seeing player's faces when they make the connection, but before they can speak.   Try to think of complementary monsters like that.  It's way more scary than a death save IMO.
#8 OoftaMeg Jul 05, 2015 21:04:34	I would either roll for everyone's initiative whether they are there or not or insert the wave in when it makes the most sense from a story point of view. Initiative is just a tool, feel free to manipulate it for narrative purposes.
#9 iserith Jul 06, 2015 6:19:35	doc_atomic wrote:
#10 DMOny Jul 06, 2015 6:34:17	iserith wrote:
#11 bawylie Jul 06, 2015 10:37:28	Foreshadow.    On round 2, I'm announcing that reinforcements will arrive. (In game with some concrete evidence, such as you can hear them approach or someone calls for reinforcements, etc).    They show up 2 rounds later. I run initiative using the speed factor rules, so their placement in order is automatically integrated without event. However, If I were using default initiative, I would likely do as suggested above and place like-types with like and roll for any new types.    Otherwise, I would have a 30 second pause between the fights (if the players were efficient and won the first wave) and then re-roll when the 2nd wave showed up.
#12 Ralif_Redhammer Jul 06, 2015 11:48:13	I’d definitely have them roll initiative separately.    One thing I’ve experienced with a few second wave encounters is that the first wave can get decimated pretty badly and then it’s just the second wave, resulting in an overall weaker encounter. So my advice would be to add little more to the first wave and not wait too long before sending in reinforcements. Unless you’re deliberately trying to soften them up and get some of the PCs to spend their various special abilities before the second wave.
#13 doc_atomic Jul 06, 2015 18:03:44	Many thanks for all the suggestions!
#14 Qzoo Jul 08, 2015 12:25:18	I'll add, that I don't think it is useful to have more than 2 different initiatives for the bad guys.  You shouldn't overcomplicate things unnecessarily.   Also, have you looked into alternative initiative systems?  I like the system used by Marvel Heroic RPG, where the current player chooses who goes next, friend or foe.  The best part is that everyone pays attention more because it could be their turn next...always a plus.  The other cool thing is whoever finishes the round gets to pick who goes first next round, including themselves, which means the party doesn't want the bad guy to go last and let him choose himself.  It does add some complication to spell saves that occur each round, but I generally roll them all at the end of the current round.  I'm really liking the simplicity of it, as only the highest initiative matters each round, and then it is in each player's hands to choose who goes next.  One less thing to track IMO, and that's a good thing.   **********   Perhaps what you really need is to ask one of the players to track initiative on a small whiteboard or a piece of paper for you.    Don't be afraid to delegate simple tasks.  It keeps players more engaged, and lifts a small amount of the burden off your shoulders.    Give it a try and tell me what you think.