Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ChrisSteele Nov 05, 2014 12:23:50	I've been part of the 5e playtest since the beginning and I really like where it ended up except for one thing that likely bothers me more than others because I haven't seen anyone else comment on it.  That one thing is the removing of the ability score as anything more than a way of calculating your ability modifier.   The problem:   Ability scores play no mechanical part in the game (more so in this addition than any other).  The only ability score that's referenced is STR for carry capacity and jump height/distance.  They are also used as prereqs for (optional) multiclassing and feats rules, but that's more of a "tax" than it is a mechanical contributer.   What this boils down to is that every character has an ability range of -1 to +5 and mostly in the +0 to +3 range.  Since everything uses these ability modifiers it really comes down to the d20 and not so much the ability scores.   Quick example:  8 dex with no training in acrobatics has a -1 modifer.  18 dex with training in acrobatics has a +6.  So basically from the worst to the best you slide the scale by 30% or 6 numbers on the d20.  Sure that's not nothing, but from worst to best, I'd expect more.   My solution:    The solution is two fold and is focused at making every stat value count without out breaking the core mechanic of the game.   The first is the simplest.   Saving throws are calculated as written, and then if the attribute score it's based on is > 10 and odd, you add 1.  If it's <10 and even you subtract 1.     This has the very simple effect of causing saving throws to scale one step before hit/damage/dc modifiers.  Now an 11 dex isn't a dead value, it at least gives you +1 to your dex save.  Below 10 it scales in the other direction.  Currently a stat of 9 also has no game effect so you should always go down to 8 (assuming point buy).  Now a 9 gives you a -1 to your save and an 8 gives you a -2.  There's a choice to be made and every point in a stat matters.  Note on even values above 10 the save is identical to what it is now and odd values below 10 are also the same.  This change only effects when it happens not the range keeping DCs and Saves in check.   The second change deals with skills.  Agian all skill are currently based off the stat modifier.  This results in very shallow ranges for skills (+5 being about the best with out a prof bonus and -1 about the worst).     Base skill values are equal to your attribute score minus 11.   Or calculate skills as normal and than add the (Ability Score - 11 - Ability Modifier).  (Results in the same effect but is easier to adjust already existing characters.)   What this does is allow for larger numbers at the extreams but it keeps the average pretty close to what it is now.  With this method there is no need to adjust any published DCs.  It just rewards those with very high attribute scores.  This also means at an attribute values of 10, you start off with a -1 in the skill, this, imo, is a good thing.  At 11 (+0) and 12 (+1) you're even with the current system.  And a stat of 18 (+7) is 3 better than the current system.  Not extream, but enough to make every attribute point matter.   Summary:   These changes help to create a smooth progression for ability scores instead of the stairstep model that exists as written.  These changes are easy to add to any character and can be turned "off" or "on" simply by adding or not adding the adjusted values.   The table from 8-20 for ability scores and their effects would now look like:   Score: Atk, Dmg, & DC Mod / Save Base / Skill Base 8: -1 / -2 / -3 9: -1 / -1 / -2 10: 0 / 0 / -1 11: 0 / 1 / 0 12: 1 / 1 / 1 13: 1 / 2 / 2 14: 2 / 2 / 3 15: 2 / 3 / 4 16: 3 / 3 / 5 17: 3 / 4 / 6 18: 4 / 4 / 7 19: 4 / 5 / 8 20: 5 / 5 / 9   As a final note - these changes are intended for PCs only.  All monsters and NPCs should remain as written for the sake of not requiring extensive tweaking of every entity in the game.  And since DCs aren't changing on the player side, saves don't need to change on the monster side.     Thoughts?
#2 Theros Nov 05, 2014 15:34:00	I don't see a problem. I like ability scores having less of an impact on the game.
#3 ChrisSteele Nov 05, 2014 15:58:30	Theros wrote:
#4 onceMoreIntoBreech Nov 05, 2014 19:07:17	I don't see it as a problem. It was a conscious design choice.
#5 Varden_Khol Nov 05, 2014 19:41:39	I think that allowing PC modifiers to get up to +9 (+13 with max barbarian) is going to really break the math of the system. Having a +15 to do something under duress makes it ridiculously easy and DCs would all have to be recalculated. *Edit* Went off on a tangent :/
#6 Timmee Nov 06, 2014 4:28:30	Strength directly effects jumping. But as far as I know, it's the only ability score used to determine something other than a modifier.   I dig where you're trying to get at, but it seems a bit complicated to have multiples of numbers effecting things. The current model may not be perfect, but it is simplistic. That said, your module could certainly be used as a variant for those who wish to broaden the score system.
#7 ChrisSteele Nov 06, 2014 9:39:49	Varden_Khol wrote:
#8 Coredump00 Nov 06, 2014 11:54:22	ChrisSteele wrote:
#9 ChrisSteele Nov 06, 2014 13:04:08	Coredump00 wrote:
#10 Timborama Nov 07, 2014 11:06:05	Could be worth noting that you could make it a rule that, in the case of ties, whoever has the highest ability SCORE wins. Usually with ties it goes to the highest modifier, or it's resolved as setting it back to "neutral" (door stays shut, ring stays on the floor, stuff like that). Yes it's very minor, but hey, it's something!