Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 woif Sep 06, 2014 17:38:38	It seems to be a general consensus in these forums that the sorcerer is significantly weaker than a wizard in most situations, so I was thinking of a few small buffs for the sorcerer that would bring him in line with the power of other classes. 1) allow meta magic to be retained as you level 2) allow the sorcerer to gain a new meta magic option at levels 7 and 13 3) spell slots can be turned into sorcery points at no loss. Obviously you would only need one change, these are just a few options I was thinking of. #3 seems like it might be a little too strong, maybe have it be at less of a loss? What are your thoughts? Is this even needed? Are my options too much/not enough? What would you do?
#2 Ansbach Sep 06, 2014 19:04:55	woif wrote:
#3 Atheosis Sep 06, 2014 19:41:16	I have not seen any such general consensus.
(Reply to #3) Ashrym	Atheosis wrote:
#5 CaptainPicard Sep 06, 2014 22:52:57	This is not related to re-balancing them, but I would allow Dragon Sorcerers to set their AC to be 13 + strength, similar to 4e, rather than 13 + dex.   From the consensus in other threads, this would not unbalance them in the least. I just like the idea of the character basically aggressively meeting attacks with their scales instead of trying to dodge them and the scales are a backup. Seems more fitting for, say, Red or White chromatics.
#6 Captain_Kobold Sep 07, 2014 2:31:37	Why are the threads that you read coming to that conclusion? How do those people think that the Sorceror lags behind, and so that do they believe is needed to improve to bring them back into balance?   Which boards has this consuncsus been reached on?
#7 darkenmore Sep 07, 2014 2:39:36	So, basically, because you're strong, you're not hurt when you get hit? Doesn't make much sense to me.
#8 DLfan Sep 07, 2014 10:09:00	I agree, the sorcerer is very underpowered. The biggest deficit is in spells known. The metamagics are also very underpowered compared to wizard equivalents. If an invoker casts a spell after reaching 3rd level that is an evocation the spell always ignores 1+spell level creatures if she so chooses. The sorcerer just allows targets to make a save but they still suffer any effects of the spell such as half damage and the sorcerer must spend spell points every time to activate this metamagic where as the invoker can do it all day long for free.
(Reply to #7) CaptainPicard	darkenmore wrote:
#10 Psikerlord Sep 07, 2014 16:23:05	id suggest giving them 4 metamagic abilities at the start instead of 2. And bonus ritual casting feat or elemental adept feat
#11 eleran Sep 07, 2014 17:08:52	woif wrote:
(Reply to #5) Oraibi	CaptainPicard wrote:
(Reply to #8) Litania84it	DLfan wrote:
#14 Sorxores Sep 08, 2014 9:08:25	woif wrote:
#15 Ashrym Sep 08, 2014 10:16:59	Quickened spell lets the sorcerer cast a spell and a cantrip on the same turn and is similar to the complained against self hasting cantrip spamming evokers of the playtest and specifically did not make it into the actual rules.  Heightened spell gives disadvantage on the save, which is rather significant with some spells, like dominate monster.  Twinned spell is a bit pricey for high level spells but it's cheap for double cantrip spamming as well and allows for use with a variety of spells and has the option of twinning some nicer high level spells.  Careful spell opens up options in AoE's not available to other casters.  Empowered spell adds additional damage and can be stacked with other metamagic abilities after looking at the damage dice.  It only takes 1 or 2 meta's for strong casting if a person wants subtle spell and/or distant spell, and leaving those 2 off the list gives 4/5 of the options listed for some strong spell casting.   Sorcery points can give a lot of low level spells through flexible casting as they increase or add to the potency of the spells cast.  Twinned spell and quickened spell are good low level choices because they add cantrip damage during peak moment encounters for a couple of actions and can be effective for some time.   The only think I don't really like is the limited selection for elemental affinity but the character only needs so many attack spells to start with and those can be sparsed out among level increases.  The draconic ancestry pretty much dictates some of the spell selection but that seems by design, and there is a feat to help with concerns on elemental damage type.   I think too many people a selling the effectiveness of metamagic short.  Our playtest experience didn't encounter an actual issue with sorcerers.
#16 woif Sep 08, 2014 10:43:02	Okay, I may not have used the correct term when I said a consensus has been reached, I should have said that I've seen many people on the forum state that the sorcerer is fairly weak and I tend to agree. I personally believe there are two main isues with the sorcerer.  1) the spell recovery mechanic is weak when compared to the wizard. Sorcerers have to spend SP just to keep up with wizards in spells per day, and that means they don't get to use thier defining features, metamagic. 2) while metamagic is great the number of known metamagics really hurts, the chances of having the right metamagic for every situation is pretty slim. The whole point of the sorcerer is that he knows less spells than  wizard, but can shape them to fit any situation. With only 2 meta magic options available till level 10, that simply isn't a reality.   with both of those draw backs you would expect sorcerer to really excell in a few ways when compared to wizard, but these cases appear to be petty minor. 1)Sorcerer does not need a short rest to recover spells (till 20) This benefit will vary based on individual groups, but from my experience and from looking at published adventures, it doesn't seem all that difficult to get a single short rest for most adventuring days.   2)Sorcerer can twin non-enchantment spells and careful cast non-evocation spells If a sorcerer uses thier precious spells known and metamagic slots they can pull off a few tricks that a wizard can't, but this is fairly minor and requires a big investment.   Now all that being said sorverers are not completely useless and not that far behind the wizard (in my opinion). I think they only need a minor buff to catch back up as I said in my origional post. Hopefully that clears up any misunderstandings from my first post.
#17 woif Sep 08, 2014 10:50:36	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #17) Ashrym	woif wrote:
#19 Chakravant Sep 08, 2014 12:03:51	A Sorcerer who could regain more spells would be obscenely overpowered in my opinion.  Between Quicken Spell, Twinned Spell, and Elemental Affinity (probably fire in Charop), a Sorcerer is a wrecking ball of destruction.  While it is true they have fewer spells, their ability to "first turn nova" in every combat using metamagic is so devastating they'll just trivialize any encounter they are in.  In a way it reminds me of the 4E Killswitch (hybrid Warlord/Artificer) build.  If you can control the opening of combat, you can effectively win in that first round.  The rest of combat becomes rote clean up. First round combat trivialization was one of the hallmarks of 3E and 4E era Charop.  Is there any reason to think 5E is radically different in this case?
(Reply to #12) CaptainPicard	Oraibi wrote:
#21 Atheosis Sep 08, 2014 21:13:01	DLfan wrote:
#22 Psikerlord Sep 09, 2014 0:56:53	Sorxores wrote:
(Reply to #18) Sorxores	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #23) Ashrym	Sorxores wrote: